The Double Empathy Problem: Can Autistic and Neurotypical Partners Truly Understand Each Other?

Episode Title: The Double Empathy Problem: Can Autistic and Neurotypical Partners Truly Understand Each Other?

Episode Number: 4

Release Date: April 18, 2024

Duration: 01:03:55

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah continue their discussion on communication. They delve deeper into communication styles, emphasizing the difference between assertive and aggressive communication. The hosts then explore the double empathy problem, a phenomenon where individuals with vastly different life experiences struggle to empathize with each other. They discuss how this problem manifests in neurodivergent-neurotypical relationships and offer insights into effective communication strategies. The episode concludes with a discussion on the challenges of eye contact for autistic individuals and the importance of understanding and accommodating neurodiversity.

Key Takeaways:

• Assertive vs. Aggressive Communication: The hosts clarify the distinction between assertive and aggressive communication, emphasizing the importance of respecting others while expressing one's needs.
• Double Empathy Problem: The double empathy problem is explored in depth, highlighting the challenges faced by both neurodivergent and neurotypical individuals in understanding each other's perspectives.
• Communication Strategies: The episode offers practical tips for effective communication, emphasizing the importance of asking for clarification and being open to different communication styles.
• Eye Contact and Neurodiversity: The challenges of eye contact for autistic individuals are discussed, advocating for understanding and accommodation of neurodiversity.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• Examples of different communication styles.
• The definition and implications of the double empathy problem.
• Strategies for effective communication in neurodivergent-neurotypical relationships.
• The science behind eye contact and autism.

Quotes:

• "The main definition between assertive and aggressive...is on one hand the aggressive speaker makes threats to get what they want...an assertive person...also does it in a way that respects the other person." - Moshe
• "Autistic people don't struggle necessarily with empathy. They struggle with double empathy, which is the phenomenon or the problem of understanding another person's experiences." - Leah
• "It's not that they don't care a lot of the time. It's that they don't understand what they're supposed to be caring about." - Leah

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Transcript:

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Music.

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Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic. I'm Leah, and I'm boring.

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Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,

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marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.

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The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.

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Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion,

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and unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the

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many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.

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But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will

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be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,

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a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.

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If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,

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consult your family doctor.

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Music.

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Hi moshe hi leah how are you today very well thank you all right so now we're

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taking up part two of communicating about communication part two communication about communication,

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we we did the the first part not last time but the time before that and it went

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a little bit long And that's okay, because people are listening to us talk.

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And if we can't always be, you know, less verbose, and sometimes more is better

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than not at all. So that's perfectly okay, because they were very interesting

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topics, and we had a lot to go into about them.

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So we left you last time with a little bit info about what we wanted to cover in this episode.

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However, we realized that when we were doing the topic of communication styles,

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we didn't necessarily thoroughly go into it.

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So Moshe wanted to go over a little bit about examples of the communication

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styles that we discussed last time.

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So, the last episode of communication, we discussed the four different kinds

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of communication styles, and I had mentioned at the end that there were some

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really good examples, but I couldn't think of them.

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So, I actually looked them up, and there were a few things, and we'll briefly

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go over them before we get into the topics today.

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So, first, the different sorts of communication styles that Leah basically went

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into are the passive, assertive, passive-aggressive, and aggressive.

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And in particular, what I was really interested in was, what is the difference

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between an aggressive speaker and an assertive speaker?

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A lot of people struggle with that. Neurotypical or neurodivergent.

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So, the brief summary is, I'll quickly kind of go over the overview.

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Defines passive speaker as emotionally dishonest, indirect, inhibited,

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self-denying, blaming, and apologetic. Ooh, dishonest?

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That's harsh. Emotionally dishonest. A passive-aggressive speaker is emotionally

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dishonest as well, indirect, self-denying at first, and self-enhancing at the

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expense of others later.

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An aggressive speaker is inappropriately honest, direct, expressive,

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attacking, blaming, controlling, and self-enhancing at the expense of others.

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Appropriately honest is how How do you start off assertive, appropriately honest,

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direct, self-enhancing, expressive, self-confident, and empathetic to the emotions

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of all the people that are involved?

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Right. So I would actually say that the aggressive description describes sort

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of if you looked up or if you saw on a popular TV show, an autistic person,

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how they would be perceived of communicating.

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So, the main definition between assertive and aggressive, because a lot of people,

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they go, what's the difference between assertive and aggressive?

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So, some examples that they give are aggressive means you establish one's needs

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and beliefs in a threatening and disrespectful way, whereas an assertive person

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shows up and supports one's beliefs without disrespecting others.

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An aggressive person is overconfident, which leads to harshness.

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An assertive person is confident and self-assured. An aggressive person is manipulative,

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hostile, demeaning, and abusive, whereas an assertive person would be direct,

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persuasive, honest, and open.

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An aggressive person would be rigid, arrogant, and rude, whereas an assertive

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person would be flexible and firm, but also soft.

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An aggressive person would never admit mistakes.

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An assertive person admits their mistakes. An aggressive person pushes their agenda forcefully.

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An assertive person has an agenda that they share by understanding other people's agenda.

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And an aggressive speaker, their goal is to disrespect others.

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Whereas an assertive person, their goal is to keep everyone happy.

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So we'll go into an example that people give.

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It's the same scenario in all four examples.

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And the scenario is a manager works in an office, and he has to get some figures

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from his assistant, John.

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So passive person might say, so no problem, Joan, you can get those figures to me whenever you want.

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Passive aggressive person would say, you know, Joan, things would run a lot

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more smoothly if people just got their reports in on time.

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An aggressive person would say, Joan, if you don't get me those numbers soon,

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there's going to be a lot of doc pay around here.

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And a discerner person would be like, hey, Joan, I know you're really busy,

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but I need to get those numbers to me by Friday at noon.

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Right so that is the main difference

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in those communication styles you're you're you're asking

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for something but the difference between

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an aggressive and an assertive speaker is on one hand the aggressive speaker

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makes threats to get what they want they're very forceful they're very pushy

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an assertive person is still you know assertive for lack of a better word but

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they They also do it in a way that respects the other person.

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You're still telling Joan, I need those numbers.

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But instead of saying, hey, if you don't give me those numbers,

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I'm going to dock your pay.

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You're saying, I get that you're really busy, but it's really important that

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you get those to me on time, please. That's the difference. Right.

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So which of those examples of how the manager handled Joan do you think is the healthiest?

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I'm asking Moshe, but I'm also asking the audience at large, truthfully.

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So, the problem with each of these communication styles, except for assertive,

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is in the event of the passive speaker,

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you are actually being very respectful of the other person, but at the expense of yourself.

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You're saying, I don't really mind, get those to me whenever.

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You do mind, but you're not actually going to tell her.

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So, on one hand, you're going to feel resentment.

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And on the other hand joan is going

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to be like oh okay i guess it's not a big deal i'll get them into you whatever

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right and at the end of the quarter when you give her a bad

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review she's not going to understand i don't understand i thought you

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said you didn't mind exactly passive aggressive is definitely the most dangerous

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in my opinion because essentially what you're doing is you're indirectly asking

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for something because it denotes essentially that nobody's happy here because

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you are unhappy because for whatever reason, you don't have the numbers you need.

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And Joan's going to be unhappy because she's like, yeah, are you trying to ask me to do something?

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And this is actually in a situation that autistic people and neurodivergent

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people often struggle with.

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Because if you take somebody at their word, then you have to assume that when

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something is said, it is said because it denotes a need.

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And if someone were to walk into the kitchen, for example and

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there's dishes on the counter you might say gosh it

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would be really nice if someone could do the dishes and then

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half an hour we go see right and

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you go why didn't you do the dishes yet and she's like you didn't ask me to

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you'd be like yeah i did i said it would be nice if someone to do the dishes

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that's your cue and she would rightfully say i didn't know that you were asking

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you to do them then an aggressive person would essentially the passive aggressive Nobody's happy.

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The person you're talking to doesn't know what you actually want.

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And the person who is talking feels unsatisfied by what they're asking for.

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It's a lose-lose situation.

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An aggressive person, what you're

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doing is you are satisfying yourself by putting the other person down.

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So you're happy. They're not happy. be.

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And they could rightfully say to you, if you wanted me to do the dishes,

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you could have just said so. You don't have to be mean about it.

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You don't have to yell. You don't have to be angry.

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If you need something done, just tell me you need it done.

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You would go into the kitchen and be like, I asked you to do the dishes. Like,

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two hours ago and they're still not done. There's going to be serious consequences.

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We're not going to do anything. You're not going to get to go out.

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It's going to be a whole thing.

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Now, the difference between that and assertive is, okay, you know what?

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The dishes have been waiting there for a while. I see that you're really tired

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today and I see that you're busy.

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I really need those dishes to be done so that I can make supper.

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Would you be able to do that?

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More often than not, Melissa, I'm really fed up. That's how I'll approach it.

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Two things come to mind just during your explanation.

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The first is how many people in my life in particular are very aggressive communicators.

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It's almost disturbing, truthfully.

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And secondly, you brought up false confidence or overconfidence.

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Over false confidence, that is an issue.

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I find not necessarily with neurotypical versus neurodivergent,

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but with a certain personality type, like an A-type personality,

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people will have overconfidence, and it's false confidence. It's based in nothing.

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Tell me about your experiences with that.

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See, the overconfidence and the over false confidence are different,

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because you can be overconfident.

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Maybe you're very good at something, and you're not taking into other people's

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account. So let's say you're, you're really, really good at,

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I don't know, stacking boxes.

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You can be like, I can stack 50 boxes in an hour and you can't,

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you're very good at boxes, but you're not that fast.

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Let's say, whereas over false confidence is essential.

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You don't actually think that you can stack very many boxes at all,

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but you say you can because you don't believe in yourself.

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You're actually denoting or demeaning yourself by expressing something to make,

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I don't know, Maybe your aim is to make people feel better.

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Maybe it's to make you feel better. Maybe it's to placate someone.

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But when you know that you're boosting yourself up falsely, then you're actually

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indicating that you have very low self-esteem and a low belief in yourself.

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What about when people boost themselves up falsely, but they don't know it's false?

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They genuinely think they're the best, I don't know, astronaut on the planet or something. Yeah.

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Those are very difficult people to deal with because what you,

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what you need to do in those cases is if you don't really care that much and

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be like, all right, whatever.

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Sure, sure, sure. You're, you're the greatest. You invented everything that's ever been invented.

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Or if you, if you want to challenge that, or you want to help the person,

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say it's someone that you genuinely love or, or want to want to help in,

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in their ability to be a better, more functional person. You can be like, okay.

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I'm really glad that you can wash dishes in five minutes. So let's see if you can do that.

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Let's go ahead. Show me what you can do. Right. And that's a lot of times where I'm at with people.

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They'll say, I did the blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, yeah? Show me.

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And it becomes very difficult. And unfortunately, a lot of these people have

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some other, I don't know, some other things going on.

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Sometimes you mean like the people who generally

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believe they're overconfidence yes yeah

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so a lot i guess they have mental health issues or something that's something

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i'm not willing to dive into because we don't even have a lot of life experience

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with that for sure however if any viewers out there or listeners sorry out there

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do they can absolutely let us know yeah so that is a

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great way to segue into the first,

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or rather the next topic in our communication.

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This is a very interesting topic, Moshe. I think I say that about every topic.

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Yes. People are going to start making fun of me again. Maybe it'll be a merchandise.

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This is the best. It's the best, Moshe, best. The best.

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We're laughing because everything in Israel is super. It's not just a pharmacy. It's a super farm.

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It's not just a grocery store. It's super grocery. three.

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Yes. And not just a great doctor. They're the best doctor that's ever doctored

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ever. Yeah, absolutely.

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So we're going to be discussing the double empathy problem.

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It's a very interesting problem that you can do quite a deep dive into if you choose to.

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So let's see where this goes and how much time you spend on it. Okay.

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The definition that I found while I was researching it is people with very different

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life experiences or who experience the world differently when they interact with one another,

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they will struggle to empathize with one another.

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These are often exacerbated by difference in language and comprehension.

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It leads to a mutual breakdown of communication.

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Right. So the graphic that I have here denotes the problem between a neurodivergent

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or an autistic person, say, and a non-autistic person.

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And it's exactly what you said. Both parties will struggle to understand each

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other's thoughts, feelings, behavior, and differences.

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And one of the main issues that every one of those people has to struggle with

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is individualized based on where they stand.

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The autistic person often struggles to see nuance.

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An autistic person often struggles to overcome other people's misconceptions.

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The autistic person may struggle to manage sensory distractions,

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whereas the neurotypical or holistic or whatever, they struggle to form positive first impressions.

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They may struggle to recognize and understand the autistic, and they may struggle

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to imagine autistic sensory difficulties.

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And this is really, really, really, really important as it defined the beginning of our relationship.

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It defines a lot of relationships. So if you look just at the definition that

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I spoke, right? Different experiences of the world.

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Between autistic and holistic people, they experience the world vastly differently,

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even if they're in the same exact situation.

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Struggling with language right you know

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it's one of the hallmarks of autism to struggle with language even

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if you're speaking the same language which can make it very confusing and

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frustrating for people and also different

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comprehension of things where an autistic will tend

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to take things very literally like you like to give the

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example of Amelia Bedelia yeah they told her to

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make the bed an holistic child might just throw

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their covers on the bed where she went and she got the wood and the

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hammer and the tools and she was making a bet right so

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even differences in comprehension so that

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leads itself to unbelievable misunderstandings and it's literally nobody's fault

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because you're saying the thing as honestly as you possibly can say it i'm saying

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the thing as honestly as i possibly can say it but the words are not meaning

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the same thing to the other person right.

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Because when you are neurodivergent, oftentimes you are said to struggle with empathy.

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And that is actually, our experience is that's actually not right.

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Autistic people don't struggle necessarily with empathy.

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They struggle with double empathy, which is the phenomenon or the problem of

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understanding an other person's experiences.

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It's not that they don't care a lot of the time. It's that they don't understand

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what they're supposed to be caring about.

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Exactly. So, for example, I don't know, a Tylenol commercial with puppy dogs

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in it might make me cry and sad.

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It doesn't mean that Moshe doesn't have empathy for the puppy dogs or he doesn't

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have empathy for me who's sad about the puppy dogs.

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It's just that puppy dogs don't make him feel that way.

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So he has no frame of reference for understanding why I'm feeling that way.

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So he would rightly say, why are you crying? Why are you feeling that way?

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That doesn't even make sense.

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And that would come off as definitely sort of lacking empathy.

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Do you agree with that? Exactly.

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It's the whole, it's not that I don't care. It's that I don't,

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number one, I might not understand why you care.

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And I don't understand necessarily why I should care, except that you see,

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it's essentially something that I've described many times, which is,

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I don't understand why this upsets you, but I love you.

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You so i'm upset that you're upset

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the reality is if you break it down a lot of

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the times it isn't even something you should care about it's

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just that at large it's expected if that makes sense

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exactly what we discovered too long

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into our relationship if you ask me but what we discovered is

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there's a reason why it's called the double empathy problem it

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goes in both directions there were things that would upset moshe that i would

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not understand till this day i still don't understand because i have no frame

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of reference for those things to be upsetting me it does go both ways and if

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you looked at it from his perspective then i would be lacking empathy exactly,

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So, let's discuss some examples of the double empathy problem.

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And again, I want to emphasize that even though we're discussing it from the

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perspective of an autistic or neurodivergent person and a non-autistic or allistic person,

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it can happen in any relationships and it happens a lot of the time.

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But it's particularly remarkable in that it falls into another category that

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we may or may not discuss at a certain point in the future, which is the you-should-know-this thing.

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Oh, absolutely. We're going to discuss that. which I have a lot of issues with,

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because the you should know this thing is a very interesting situation.

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Because a lot of these things, once again, as with many neurodivergent qualities and characteristics.

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It comes with development and experience and maybe perspective into maybe something

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instinctual, which an autistic person or a neurodivergent person often may lack.

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Something that happens to me a lot, actually, is the understanding,

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and this is one of the most common differences between an autistic and a non-autistic,

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but it also happens with people who struggle with mental illness and people who don't.

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Because what it what it looks like is

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it looks like an example of diminishing a

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person's experiences and what they're doing is they're attempting to relate

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but by relating they're coming across as condescending and an example of that

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is i will say because i am autistic you you knew that right I am autistic,

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and one of my sensitivities is sound sensitivities.

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So occasionally, particularly very high-pitched sounds will cause me to cover

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my ears or become very agitated.

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And I will say something like,

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I have a sound sensitivity because I'm autistic. And then a person will go,

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yeah, I don't like loud noises either.

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Or, you know, I'll say I have a processing delay because I'm autistic.

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And they'll say, yeah, sometimes it's hard for me to make up my mind too.

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And they're completely innocent in their ability to try and relate to you.

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But in doing that, they're essentially reducing your experience in the same

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way that you're telling somebody,

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I don't know, someone who's, who struggled their whole life with let's say major

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depression and being told, you know, sometimes when I'm sad,

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I just smile and I feel better. Right.

298
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Exactly. Maybe, have you tried, you know, just thinking happy thoughts?

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Have you tried smiling more? Like the diet culture? Have you tried eating less?

300
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Yeah. I struggle with, you know, body image.

301
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Well, you know, have you tried eating less and going to the gym? Exactly. Yeah.

302
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I understand exactly what you're talking about there. And a lot of times these

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suggestions or advice comes unsolicited. For sure.

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And it is extremely unfortunate that a lot of this difficulty with understanding

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neurodivergent person often comes from the autistic person or the neurodivergent person's character.

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And if you are the parent of an autistic person, then oftentimes you will become an autistic champion,

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say, and be like, my son or my daughter is autistic.

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So let me tell you what you need to know about what being autistic means.

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And meanwhile, the autistic person is just kind of sitting there,

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you know, like, I guess, I guess they're an expert now. Right.

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But that's still better than the alternative of not understanding it all.

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It comes from a good place.

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Sometimes. I think a lot of the time it does. Sometimes it does.

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And you see this a lot, actually, because again, as I mentioned in a previous episode,

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I spend a lot of time on autistic boards, because I kind of want to know what

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exactly the parents of autistics and people who have autism are thinking about and struggling with,

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and what are some issues that maybe we should talk about in a future episode,

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and maybe some commonalities.

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And what I see time and time and time again is these

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things that make the person come across like they're the parent of Superman

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or this new form of life that nobody has ever seen. And again...

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It absolutely comes from a fantastic place, I'm sure.

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And they're absolutely trying to come across to boost their child.

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But in doing so, they're essentially giving them an otherness,

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which will harm them in the long run. My son is a superhero.

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You know what he did today? He washed a dish.

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That makes me so upset. He is my favorite person in the whole world because

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he put on his pants properly today, and he only threw up twice when he ate a food he didn't like.

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So I think what Moshe's saying here is that he's not trying to minimize the

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struggles of people who have issues with putting on their pants correctly or

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throwing up when they eat a trigger food.

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What he's trying to say is that you're minimizing your expectation of another

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human being when you treat it that way.

334
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Right. You would never say that to a neurotypical person like,

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yeah, you got out of bed today.

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00:24:00,330 --> 00:24:04,730
Congratulations. Right. And if you did, it would come across as condescending and patronizing.

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Because people, regardless, when you set a bar for them, they reach it.

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And if you set the bar too low, that's all they're ever going to reach,

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unless they're a very specific type of person.

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Yeah, you don't want to set the bar too high, because then essentially you're

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setting up your child for failure.

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And again, we're going to do whole episodes just dealing with autistic children

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and things that autistic children struggle with and parents of autistic children.

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But in particular, if you set the bar too high, then you're essentially setting

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yourself up for failure, for being disappointed.

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And if you set the bar too low, then you're limiting your child's potential.

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Because being autistic does not mean that they are non-functional,

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not necessarily. The only time you should.

349
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Clap for somebody having put their pants on as if they were in a coma previously.

350
00:24:54,505 --> 00:24:59,605
Exactly. Yeah. So the expectation needs to be set that not only is this not

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something special, it's something that they should be doing anyway.

352
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If it's, I mean, and again, that hasn't been said, I'm not trying to diminish or limit the struggle.

353
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We're going to hear from the parents who said, well, my son couldn't put his

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pants on for a year and then he finally accomplished it. Great.

355
00:25:15,245 --> 00:25:17,785
And that's wonderful. What are you working on next?

356
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Right. You can tell the child, you know what, buddy, you did a great job.

357
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Your pants are on straight. Let's keep doing that.

358
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Let's work on your shirt buttons. Yeah, let's figure out your buttons.

359
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But don't make a whole parade in town square over the fact that your child put

360
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on their pants properly, because that's the minimal expectation.

361
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There is an adult TikToker.

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I don't want to bring it up right now. It's going to be brought up eventually,

363
00:25:41,385 --> 00:25:45,345
but I don't want to bring it up right now who it is. But there is an adult TikToker

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who was a full-on adult, and their parent just congratulates them for the most ludicrous of things.

365
00:25:52,445 --> 00:25:56,665
And it's just, it's uncomfortable, to be honest with you.

366
00:25:56,805 --> 00:26:02,425
For sure. It feels like going to Marine Land and watching the dolphins perform.

367
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We're going to talk about this person quite a bit in this podcast,

368
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because it's actually one of the impetuses that I had for wanting to do the

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podcast in the first place.

370
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And i would very much like to involve

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them in the podcast in a future episode if

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if if they sell we'll move on their caregiver

373
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doesn't even let them do their own media but it doesn't matter anyway i want

374
00:26:26,445 --> 00:26:29,765
to bring us back to a point you made when we first started discussing the devil

375
00:26:29,765 --> 00:26:33,905
empathy problem because people i guess like to hear examples that you can get

376
00:26:33,905 --> 00:26:37,785
off the internet or general examples but they're here to listen to us so you

377
00:26:37,785 --> 00:26:40,425
said this was a huge problem at the beginning of our relationship.

378
00:26:40,665 --> 00:26:43,785
Let's talk about that a little bit. So, double empathy.

379
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Is frustrating. And again, as Leah said, from both ends.

380
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Because so much, as I said in, I think, the first episode, so much time is spent

381
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trying to discuss how autistic people struggle to relate, or how neurotypical

382
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people struggle to relate to autistic people.

383
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But not a lot of emphasis, or not a lot of time is spent on looking at it from

384
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the other perspective, on how an autistic person often struggles to understand

385
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or relate or empathize with the neurotypical.

386
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And when you have a situation or a sensitivity or a limitation or a struggle,

387
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I don't know, whatever you want to call it, that is mundane or normal or basic or even strange,

388
00:27:30,554 --> 00:27:35,754
then it's hard to understand not just why you need to do it,

389
00:27:35,774 --> 00:27:37,334
but why it matters to you.

390
00:27:37,514 --> 00:27:42,854
And the one that I will use over and over and over again is my most common one,

391
00:27:42,954 --> 00:27:47,434
which is, as an autistic person, one of the things that I struggle with a lot

392
00:27:47,434 --> 00:27:49,694
is understanding my own emotions.

393
00:27:50,114 --> 00:27:57,114
I went through a lot of struggles, especially early on, where I was said to

394
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have anger issues, and I was said to have depression, and I was said to.

395
00:28:01,054 --> 00:28:05,674
Not know how to emotionally regulate myself, and I would push people.

396
00:28:05,954 --> 00:28:11,514
There's a lot of problems. So emotional expression and emotional understanding

397
00:28:11,514 --> 00:28:14,454
was a challenge for me for a lot of my life.

398
00:28:14,574 --> 00:28:19,674
And so one of my own ways of dealing with it, especially with Leah,

399
00:28:19,874 --> 00:28:28,474
is to use her brain or functionality, I guess, to better understand appropriateness.

400
00:28:28,474 --> 00:28:31,914
So i will i will go to her

401
00:28:31,914 --> 00:28:34,674
and i will say this thing

402
00:28:34,674 --> 00:28:38,794
makes me very sad and she will say okay so what do you want what do you want

403
00:28:38,794 --> 00:28:44,154
to do and i said i don't want to do anything i just want it to be acknowledged

404
00:28:44,154 --> 00:28:47,934
that it makes me sad and for a long time she struggled with that she says why

405
00:28:47,934 --> 00:28:53,334
why if you if you don't want anything done about that why do you talk about it why do you bring it

406
00:28:53,414 --> 00:28:56,174
up why do you express it and i was like good for

407
00:28:56,174 --> 00:28:58,994
you i guess and and that is that

408
00:28:58,994 --> 00:29:01,974
was a challenge and i explained to her that for

409
00:29:01,974 --> 00:29:04,794
me it's like you're you're

410
00:29:04,794 --> 00:29:12,934
handing this broken thing this this small you know whatever it is this inanimate

411
00:29:12,934 --> 00:29:17,854
emotional bubble to a person that you care about and you trust and you put it

412
00:29:17,854 --> 00:29:22,234
in their hands and you go you know can you can you take this from me and do something with it.

413
00:29:22,953 --> 00:29:25,933
And a lot of the time, what you want done with it is just acknowledgement.

414
00:29:27,093 --> 00:29:30,013
And the reaction comes across as patronizing.

415
00:29:30,373 --> 00:29:36,033
Because a neurotypical oftentimes doesn't need to have something acknowledged and then just left.

416
00:29:36,373 --> 00:29:41,193
It would actually come across as callous or patronizing. Yeah,

417
00:29:41,253 --> 00:29:43,393
it's a thing that you're actually taught never to do.

418
00:29:43,773 --> 00:29:49,313
So, for example, when somebody says, I'm really upset at you for doing the blah, blah, blah.

419
00:29:49,313 --> 00:29:52,353
You're never supposed to say i'm sorry you

420
00:29:52,353 --> 00:29:55,413
felt that way right ever because that is

421
00:29:55,413 --> 00:29:58,533
shirking responsibility and that's making sort of

422
00:29:58,533 --> 00:30:02,293
them responsible for their feelings but you didn't do anything right so it was

423
00:30:02,293 --> 00:30:07,293
actually a thing you were asking me to do that is contrary to everything that

424
00:30:07,293 --> 00:30:13,133
we're taught about right and the reason that leah is the person that i approach

425
00:30:13,133 --> 00:30:16,033
is because i I love her and I trust her.

426
00:30:17,233 --> 00:30:20,313
And I'm taking something that I struggle with, which is an emotion,

427
00:30:20,493 --> 00:30:22,453
and I'm putting it in her hands.

428
00:30:22,953 --> 00:30:28,653
And I'm saying, look at it. Look at this poor sad emotion or look at this poor angry emotion.

429
00:30:29,293 --> 00:30:33,693
And the reaction I'm looking for is, oh, this is such a sad little emotion.

430
00:30:34,413 --> 00:30:37,493
And then I can go, yeah, it is, isn't it? And then I feel better.

431
00:30:38,413 --> 00:30:42,393
I know it sounds absolutely bonkers to a lot of you out there.

432
00:30:42,433 --> 00:30:46,133
It might make sense to some of you out there. I'd actually like to hear from

433
00:30:46,133 --> 00:30:47,693
other people who have this phenomenon.

434
00:30:48,453 --> 00:30:52,353
But I have always been taught that apologies with no action mean nothing.

435
00:30:52,873 --> 00:30:55,913
I've always been taught that you're not supposed to say, I'm sorry you feel

436
00:30:55,913 --> 00:30:58,353
that way. You're supposed to say, I'm sorry I did the thing.

437
00:30:58,793 --> 00:31:01,633
So it was a high learning curve for me.

438
00:31:01,933 --> 00:31:04,653
Because I was like, honey, I'm so sorry you're upset about that.

439
00:31:04,853 --> 00:31:08,173
Now what do you want me to do with this? And there was literally zero.

440
00:31:09,173 --> 00:31:13,313
Exactly. And you'd be like, I don't know, give me a hug. Right.

441
00:31:13,693 --> 00:31:17,093
So it's the minimum effort for the maximum outcome.

442
00:31:17,613 --> 00:31:23,753
And I still would love to be able to shed more light on it because it's a fascinating principle.

443
00:31:24,193 --> 00:31:29,633
But for me, it's really about the fact that I've struggled often in my life

444
00:31:29,633 --> 00:31:31,973
with understanding my own emotions.

445
00:31:31,973 --> 00:31:35,053
And so what i'm really saying

446
00:31:35,053 --> 00:31:38,173
is this this thing is sadness right and

447
00:31:38,173 --> 00:31:41,633
she'll go yeah it's sadness i'll go okay thank you it

448
00:31:41,633 --> 00:31:45,233
it helps me feel more safe and secure in having

449
00:31:45,233 --> 00:31:49,933
a feeling because sometimes i'll react a certain way and it will be related

450
00:31:49,933 --> 00:31:55,353
to something completely unrelated emotional dysregulation and emotional misidentification

451
00:31:55,353 --> 00:32:02,353
i'm really upset and so i'm I'm going to do something that's not related to

452
00:32:02,353 --> 00:32:03,613
being upset. I don't pick a thing.

453
00:32:04,336 --> 00:32:09,116
Whereas the way that I work, and a lot of other neurotypicals tend to work as

454
00:32:09,116 --> 00:32:15,436
far as I know, is that if you're upset about a thing, once the thing is resolved, the upset goes away.

455
00:32:15,696 --> 00:32:19,416
Right. Because there's no thing to be upset about anymore, so why do it?

456
00:32:19,416 --> 00:32:26,536
Now, this actually works in reverse too, because it's not so dissimilar from

457
00:32:26,536 --> 00:32:33,376
something that a lot of neurotypicals do in relationships where they will sit

458
00:32:33,376 --> 00:32:37,216
down with their partner at dinner or they will come to bed and go,

459
00:32:37,336 --> 00:32:40,076
oh, that person at work today made me so upset.

460
00:32:40,076 --> 00:32:44,556
They did the whatever, and then they asked for a thing, and then I was feeling

461
00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:47,336
this, and I did that, and it was just awful.

462
00:32:47,576 --> 00:32:50,876
I had such a bad day because of this person.

463
00:32:51,336 --> 00:32:57,776
And when you talk to an autistic person, you generally, they're looking for an answer.

464
00:32:57,876 --> 00:33:00,536
They're looking for expression. They're looking for a thing.

465
00:33:01,736 --> 00:33:04,776
And a concept that is not that

466
00:33:04,776 --> 00:33:07,756
is similar to that but not something that

467
00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:12,096
we are very good at doing is acknowledgement

468
00:33:12,096 --> 00:33:17,016
and again it sounds completely contradictory because on one hand i'm asking

469
00:33:17,016 --> 00:33:20,516
for acknowledgement but on the other hand they're looking for an acknowledgement

470
00:33:20,516 --> 00:33:26,296
and yes but what i'm wanting acknowledged is far more complex and you may not

471
00:33:26,296 --> 00:33:29,356
have thought the entire thing through in order to acknowledge it correctly.

472
00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:33,136
Right. What you're asking for is, is this sad? Yeah, it's sad.

473
00:33:33,476 --> 00:33:38,036
Okay, well, that's a very simple thing. Whereas this person asked me for this,

474
00:33:38,036 --> 00:33:40,276
then why is it, why are you upset about that, Leah?

475
00:33:40,456 --> 00:33:43,816
Well, it might be because I told you six other times that that person asked

476
00:33:43,816 --> 00:33:47,036
me for it and it's not my job. You haven't yet calculated that part.

477
00:33:47,538 --> 00:33:52,878
Exactly. It becomes a very complex scenario. And the end of that story is,

478
00:33:53,018 --> 00:33:55,238
I don't actually want you to do anything.

479
00:33:55,698 --> 00:34:00,498
I just want you to go, yeah, that Carol is such a bad person.

480
00:34:00,618 --> 00:34:02,398
Just agree with the person. Yeah, exactly.

481
00:34:02,878 --> 00:34:05,718
Whereas for an autistic, I can see where that's hard because it's like,

482
00:34:05,758 --> 00:34:08,538
what am I agreeing with? I'm not in this situation. I have no idea.

483
00:34:08,538 --> 00:34:10,798
Yes, I wasn't there. How do I know that she was?

484
00:34:11,218 --> 00:34:16,518
I know that you feel that way, but why is the result that you're looking for

485
00:34:16,518 --> 00:34:21,778
for me to acknowledge that that person is a bad person? Right.

486
00:34:22,238 --> 00:34:26,738
Because I said so, and you have to agree with me, and that's a concept that

487
00:34:26,738 --> 00:34:29,358
you struggled with a lot. You just want agreement. You want understanding.

488
00:34:29,858 --> 00:34:34,338
But it's a very difficult concept, and empathy in that sense is hard,

489
00:34:34,518 --> 00:34:36,418
because I have no frame of reference.

490
00:34:36,738 --> 00:34:39,878
I mean, maybe if I know the person, I know, yeah, I know, the last time that

491
00:34:39,878 --> 00:34:41,158
this happened, this happened too.

492
00:34:41,478 --> 00:34:44,558
That brings up a topic that we also acknowledged again today,

493
00:34:44,638 --> 00:34:48,578
but we discussed a long time ago, which is agreeing, always backing up your

494
00:34:48,578 --> 00:34:51,238
partner, agreeing with them in public, even if you know they're wrong,

495
00:34:51,358 --> 00:34:53,998
and talking to them about it later. Yes.

496
00:34:54,678 --> 00:35:00,118
That is a very, again, a very difficult concept for autistics because they are autistic people.

497
00:35:00,158 --> 00:35:04,998
And again, I want to just whoa back and go, I say it's a difficult concept for

498
00:35:04,998 --> 00:35:07,698
autistics, not because I'm saying that all autistics struggle with it,

499
00:35:07,718 --> 00:35:10,038
but because oftentimes this comes up.

500
00:35:10,258 --> 00:35:14,518
It's a, if you will, a stereotype that they're very factual.

501
00:35:14,518 --> 00:35:18,618
If you feel like a

502
00:35:18,618 --> 00:35:21,738
person is not correct then it is the instinct of

503
00:35:21,738 --> 00:35:27,498
them to go out actually that's not what happened and what we fail to grasp is

504
00:35:27,498 --> 00:35:31,278
it doesn't matter right it doesn't matter that that's what happened exactly

505
00:35:31,278 --> 00:35:36,478
this is how it made me feel and that's what i'm telling you about right i think

506
00:35:36,478 --> 00:35:38,058
this actually goes back to a point

507
00:35:38,058 --> 00:35:41,638
where one of our friends actually we're pretty to get friends with now,

508
00:35:41,738 --> 00:35:44,758
said something that bothered me. And you were like, why does it bother you?

509
00:35:44,818 --> 00:35:47,478
And I was like, it bothers me because it does. And now it bothers you too,

510
00:35:47,538 --> 00:35:48,878
mister. And it was a fight.

511
00:35:50,078 --> 00:35:55,498
Because if I don't understand the reason for a person to be upset.

512
00:35:56,289 --> 00:35:59,069
Or angry and when i hear

513
00:35:59,069 --> 00:36:02,229
it back i still don't understand it then the

514
00:36:02,229 --> 00:36:05,209
default needs to be just we can talk about it

515
00:36:05,209 --> 00:36:08,129
but just in public say yeah you're you

516
00:36:08,129 --> 00:36:12,469
were out of line doing that thing and then later though why why why were you

517
00:36:12,469 --> 00:36:15,969
upset about that like what why was that why was she out of line i don't understand

518
00:36:15,969 --> 00:36:19,929
but that is the thing you always have to be open to that private discussion

519
00:36:19,929 --> 00:36:25,009
later or else it does cause issues so all of that is to say in summarize that

520
00:36:25,009 --> 00:36:27,009
the The beginning of our relationship was rough.

521
00:36:27,629 --> 00:36:33,769
It was. It was hours and hours and hours of miscommunications and sort of yelling

522
00:36:33,769 --> 00:36:37,429
at each other in the same language, but a different language to just come to

523
00:36:37,429 --> 00:36:40,169
the conclusion that we were saying the same thing to each other, really.

524
00:36:40,449 --> 00:36:46,509
This is to say that communication is— I mean, our romantic relationship at this point.

525
00:36:46,569 --> 00:36:50,529
Again, I'll probably have to do a small episode explaining this whole thing.

526
00:36:50,529 --> 00:36:55,969
I, we intended when we went through all the episode ideas that we were thinking about,

527
00:36:56,089 --> 00:37:01,389
that we were going to do an episode that's exclusively dealing with some of

528
00:37:01,389 --> 00:37:03,189
the more difficult times in

529
00:37:03,189 --> 00:37:07,729
our relationship and sort of talking about it in an open and honest way.

530
00:37:07,729 --> 00:37:11,149
Because the reality is for any relationship, when you move from friendship,

531
00:37:11,309 --> 00:37:14,869
which is very close and very nice, to a romantic relationship,

532
00:37:15,029 --> 00:37:16,689
the stakes get very high.

533
00:37:16,829 --> 00:37:22,229
The exponential growth of the stakes between you two is scary for anyone.

534
00:37:22,509 --> 00:37:26,749
And if you're having communication issues, it's hard. It's really hard.

535
00:37:27,029 --> 00:37:33,529
So what is... So I have a note here. It's really funny. Sometimes I make myself laugh.

536
00:37:33,709 --> 00:37:37,169
All it says is double autism, question mark.

537
00:37:37,409 --> 00:37:41,649
And I don't really remember the reference, but I feel like we're going to explore

538
00:37:41,649 --> 00:37:46,449
the idea of the double empathy problem between two autistics because theoretically

539
00:37:46,449 --> 00:37:48,729
they should be able to understand each other better.

540
00:37:48,969 --> 00:37:53,449
But there are times where you'll tell Avram something and he'll take it so literally

541
00:37:53,449 --> 00:37:55,029
that it's not even what you said.

542
00:37:55,029 --> 00:38:01,069
Yes. And it's kind of almost a humorous comedy of errors, if you will.

543
00:38:01,269 --> 00:38:07,809
Because Avram and I connect best when we're both acting autistic.

544
00:38:08,269 --> 00:38:16,289
But we connect the worst when I'm attempting to act how I perceive as normal.

545
00:38:16,289 --> 00:38:23,129
Because when you shut down the parts of your mind that allow you to understand

546
00:38:23,129 --> 00:38:27,169
things that are oftentimes nonsensical or subtle,

547
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:33,749
then you're preventing yourself from being able to understand the curiosities

548
00:38:33,749 --> 00:38:36,149
that are going on with the autistic mind.

549
00:38:37,469 --> 00:38:41,369
And oftentimes Avram will look at me and go, you're feeling this way because

550
00:38:41,369 --> 00:38:42,569
of this, right? And I'm like, yeah.

551
00:38:42,709 --> 00:38:46,749
And sometimes Avram will say something. And I'll be like, this is why he's saying

552
00:38:46,749 --> 00:38:48,429
this. And it turns out that I'm right.

553
00:38:49,015 --> 00:38:53,035
Because I can notice things, and I can detect things, and I can receive things

554
00:38:53,035 --> 00:38:56,555
that other people might not be looking for necessarily.

555
00:38:57,035 --> 00:39:02,135
Right. But I feel like what we're discussing here, or what I was trying to discuss, is the opposite.

556
00:39:02,635 --> 00:39:06,195
So where even you two won't understand each other necessarily.

557
00:39:06,715 --> 00:39:09,835
And we won't. So I think maybe the other day you asked him to put his shoes

558
00:39:09,835 --> 00:39:13,495
on. Yes. And in your mind, that included putting his socks on.

559
00:39:13,675 --> 00:39:17,175
Yes. And he just put his shoes on. And you were like, socks?

560
00:39:17,175 --> 00:39:20,155
Socks and was like you didn't say socks right and

561
00:39:20,155 --> 00:39:23,055
to me i was like oh look that was sort of double autism right

562
00:39:23,055 --> 00:39:26,395
there double autism because i'll i'll say a thing without

563
00:39:26,395 --> 00:39:29,175
any you know descriptors and he'll

564
00:39:29,175 --> 00:39:32,235
do a thing based on how he interpreted what i said and

565
00:39:32,235 --> 00:39:35,295
took it completely literally and a lot

566
00:39:35,295 --> 00:39:39,275
of the time it it becomes a problem and it

567
00:39:39,275 --> 00:39:42,895
it creates a lot of humorous situations where you

568
00:39:42,895 --> 00:39:45,815
would look at the situation well you should know better than

569
00:39:45,815 --> 00:39:48,655
to to do the effect it it is if any of the

570
00:39:48,655 --> 00:39:51,615
major networks wants to pick up you know our sitcom it would

571
00:39:51,615 --> 00:39:54,355
be very funny it would be it would be

572
00:39:54,355 --> 00:39:57,955
a very interesting situation that deals

573
00:39:57,955 --> 00:40:01,255
specifically with autistic people misunderstanding

574
00:40:01,255 --> 00:40:08,995
each other and in it could get very neared i i i would definitely you know maybe

575
00:40:08,995 --> 00:40:14,255
it's it's the newest it's the newest sitcom on on network television you know

576
00:40:14,255 --> 00:40:18,475
We put two autistics in a house together and watch what happens.

577
00:40:20,115 --> 00:40:25,195
So that brings me to misunderstandings. That's a very broad topic, but pretty simple.

578
00:40:25,415 --> 00:40:30,575
I think a lot of our podcast in general has been discussing misunderstandings and how they happen.

579
00:40:30,815 --> 00:40:33,675
When we have misunderstandings, how do we deal with them?

580
00:40:34,468 --> 00:40:39,788
And misunderstandings often should, at the very least, involve the sentence,

581
00:40:39,968 --> 00:40:41,048
what did you mean by that?

582
00:40:41,248 --> 00:40:47,408
Right. Because I have mentioned to Leah, and I can mention to our audience,

583
00:40:47,608 --> 00:40:52,128
that a lot of the things that I say are not actually the things that I necessarily

584
00:40:52,128 --> 00:40:58,568
mean, or that the thing that I'm saying is not meant to be taken the way that

585
00:40:58,568 --> 00:41:01,108
it would possibly be interpreted as.

586
00:41:01,928 --> 00:41:04,688
And you could say well why don't you just say what

587
00:41:04,688 --> 00:41:07,828
you mean and the answer is because i am or i

588
00:41:07,828 --> 00:41:10,608
don't necessarily know what i mean or i'm saying a thing

589
00:41:10,608 --> 00:41:14,008
that resembles the thing that i'm trying to say and leah

590
00:41:14,008 --> 00:41:17,608
mentioned i think in in a previous episode that i often use the word adjacent

591
00:41:17,608 --> 00:41:23,148
to the word that i'm trying to say and it it becomes i don't know is there like

592
00:41:23,148 --> 00:41:29,868
an actual condition where you talk in words that are resembling but not entirely

593
00:41:29,868 --> 00:41:33,908
like the words you're trying to say? I believe it's called autism.

594
00:41:34,508 --> 00:41:38,648
Right, okay. I think actually it may be called a seizure. Don't quote me,

595
00:41:38,708 --> 00:41:39,768
but I'd have to look it up.

596
00:41:41,008 --> 00:41:47,728
It's an interesting concept because when—I'm trying to think of a specific example

597
00:41:47,728 --> 00:41:52,868
recently that I said a thing, but I actually meant the thing adjacent to the thing that I was

598
00:41:52,948 --> 00:41:55,868
trying to say and and it can be something as simple

599
00:41:55,868 --> 00:41:58,668
as honey do you remember where where

600
00:41:58,668 --> 00:42:01,888
where uh the thing was and i'll be like it's in

601
00:42:01,888 --> 00:42:06,328
the living room i i mean the kitchen right actually i can't think of your most

602
00:42:06,328 --> 00:42:11,028
recent one but i remember a funny one that my grandmother said once she was

603
00:42:11,028 --> 00:42:15,128
trying to say that her toe was bothering her and she pointed at her toe and

604
00:42:15,128 --> 00:42:20,028
she said my foot finger is bothering you my foot finger that kind of thing the finger of the foot?

605
00:42:20,368 --> 00:42:25,848
My foot finger, that is completely understandable as far as I can see it.

606
00:42:25,948 --> 00:42:27,908
Maybe she was neurodivergent. Maybe.

607
00:42:28,428 --> 00:42:32,188
And a funny thing that I don't know if it's the same thing or not that used

608
00:42:32,188 --> 00:42:35,428
to happen to me at work. I've worked for a long time in call centers.

609
00:42:36,248 --> 00:42:41,508
And a lot of the funniest moments, which we will get into,

610
00:42:41,668 --> 00:42:46,368
a lot of the funniest moments in our relationship and in my life overall have

611
00:42:46,368 --> 00:42:56,548
come with the way that I express myself and the funny things that I end up doing.

612
00:42:56,688 --> 00:43:02,108
And one of the funniest things, which actually isn't that uncommon now that

613
00:43:02,108 --> 00:43:07,888
I've talked to people about it, is when I would want to put people on hold,

614
00:43:08,088 --> 00:43:10,608
I would ask them if I could hold them for a second.

615
00:43:12,268 --> 00:43:14,968
And in my mind, it was like, yeah, hold, hold them. You know,

616
00:43:15,028 --> 00:43:17,428
can I put you on hold? Can I hold you?

617
00:43:18,608 --> 00:43:21,928
It made perfect sense in my mind. I'm asking to hold you.

618
00:43:22,702 --> 00:43:27,942
I'm taking hold, and I'm applying it to you, so therefore, can I hold you for a second?

619
00:43:28,542 --> 00:43:32,282
And people have laughed, and they've said, well, I mean, I don't know how that's

620
00:43:32,282 --> 00:43:34,882
going to work, or if you really want to, I guess.

621
00:43:35,482 --> 00:43:39,442
Or they'll just be, like, the joke will just, they'll just be like, what?

622
00:43:40,302 --> 00:43:44,862
I don't understand what you mean. But it happens a lot, unfortunately. Yeah, it does.

623
00:43:45,682 --> 00:43:50,442
So, ultimately, yes, misunderstandings, asking what did you mean by that?

624
00:43:50,442 --> 00:43:56,402
And our favorite word for this podcast communication about it clears up a lot

625
00:43:56,402 --> 00:43:59,962
of misunderstandings and it does sound like a lot of work but it's worth it

626
00:43:59,962 --> 00:44:02,922
for the future because the next time the same thing happens you're ready to

627
00:44:02,922 --> 00:44:04,642
go like you already know what's happening,

628
00:44:05,182 --> 00:44:09,782
right but it does need to be identified and and this is in no way excusing bad

629
00:44:09,782 --> 00:44:16,682
behavior if if someone says thing and then say what did you mean by that well

630
00:44:16,682 --> 00:44:22,822
i meant this oh okay or or the uh or Or the common thing that a lot of parents

631
00:44:22,822 --> 00:44:24,482
will do with their kids, like when they swear.

632
00:44:24,822 --> 00:44:28,602
And they'll go, excuse me, you want to try that again? Or you want to say that again?

633
00:44:29,382 --> 00:44:33,582
I don't think I heard you. It sounded like you were saying, you know, a bad word.

634
00:44:34,202 --> 00:44:37,542
One of my favorite things that my father used to actually say,

635
00:44:37,602 --> 00:44:41,162
when he would say something ludicrous, he would sort of wiggle the inside of

636
00:44:41,162 --> 00:44:43,702
his ear and say, excuse me, I think I had something stupid in my ear.

637
00:44:45,822 --> 00:44:49,362
Yes, I oftentimes have stupid things in my ear.

638
00:44:50,682 --> 00:44:53,622
So that brings us to our next topic

639
00:44:53,622 --> 00:44:57,102
how long does effective communication take well

640
00:44:57,102 --> 00:45:02,582
that's a very difficult topic well what do you mean in terms of that right so

641
00:45:02,582 --> 00:45:06,322
the first is how long in terms of years does it take to learn how to communicate

642
00:45:06,322 --> 00:45:11,922
with each other or how long does it take to resolve one particular conflict

643
00:45:11,922 --> 00:45:15,362
right or how long does it take to communicate an idea Yeah.

644
00:45:15,562 --> 00:45:22,802
And the reality is for all of those options, it takes as long as it takes. It takes until.

645
00:45:23,522 --> 00:45:26,882
And the reality is you just have to care enough. If you don't care enough,

646
00:45:26,922 --> 00:45:31,142
then you don't have to. You have to care. And because humans are humans.

647
00:45:32,209 --> 00:45:39,789
So often changing and growing and maturing and unfortunately developing conditions

648
00:45:39,789 --> 00:45:45,529
that affect their processing themselves, it really is a lifelong journey.

649
00:45:45,689 --> 00:45:51,049
Because the way that I communicate now is not the way that I communicated a

650
00:45:51,049 --> 00:45:54,809
year ago or five years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

651
00:45:55,089 --> 00:45:58,949
And it may not be, in fact, it quite likely won't be the way that I communicate

652
00:45:58,949 --> 00:46:02,929
in 10 years' time. And yes, what I said before, I meant both ways.

653
00:46:03,069 --> 00:46:08,409
So not just the neurotypical's job to communicate with and understand the neurodivergent,

654
00:46:08,469 --> 00:46:09,209
but the other way around.

655
00:46:09,609 --> 00:46:12,889
Again, it takes until it takes. And if you don't want to do it anymore,

656
00:46:13,029 --> 00:46:14,269
then that's a whole other discussion.

657
00:46:14,669 --> 00:46:20,189
And I mean, certain things will solidify eventually, because we started off

658
00:46:20,189 --> 00:46:25,969
basically constantly misunderstanding each other on a minute-by-minute basis.

659
00:46:25,969 --> 00:46:30,689
And at a certain do you remember the first time i told you you weren't hugging

660
00:46:30,689 --> 00:46:35,589
in kizuna enough yes and you said i bought you a coffee and i'm looking at you

661
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:38,129
what more do you want yes exactly.

662
00:46:38,669 --> 00:46:43,729
Because that in my mind is is demonstrating love in the way that i thought was

663
00:46:43,729 --> 00:46:49,769
you know effective and it clearly wasn't affection is is is a very difficult

664
00:46:49,769 --> 00:46:51,809
topic to you're going to get so many do

665
00:46:51,849 --> 00:46:54,789
better do you know this from this yes but this

666
00:46:54,789 --> 00:46:58,709
he does better now this is the evolution of of myself and

667
00:46:58,709 --> 00:47:02,909
it really is a matter of learning

668
00:47:02,909 --> 00:47:08,969
both from again from both ends when i do a thing or when i say a thing she knows

669
00:47:08,969 --> 00:47:13,629
that i'm doing this or when she says a thing or acts in a certain way or looks

670
00:47:13,629 --> 00:47:19,149
a certain way or touches me i know that she's probably indicating this but we

671
00:47:19,149 --> 00:47:21,069
didn't know We were literally blind,

672
00:47:21,229 --> 00:47:23,369
deaf, and dumb. Mostly me.

673
00:47:24,129 --> 00:47:28,229
An additional layer of difficulty for Moshe is that I have been known to have,

674
00:47:28,469 --> 00:47:32,849
how do I say this without saying it, resting assertive person face.

675
00:47:33,489 --> 00:47:40,769
Yes. The problem with being not the best at learning social cues and reading

676
00:47:40,769 --> 00:47:44,189
faces, facial recognition is a common thing.

677
00:47:44,189 --> 00:47:48,189
My face is hard to read for neurotypicals, though, because when I'm concentrating

678
00:47:48,189 --> 00:47:53,429
or not doing anything in particular, I just look angry. It's not my fault. I'm not angry.

679
00:47:53,849 --> 00:47:58,429
And I also have facial things that people have called out.

680
00:47:58,769 --> 00:48:02,109
We talked about that in the last episode, the uncanny valley.

681
00:48:02,329 --> 00:48:04,929
Listen to it. Download it and listen to it. Exactly.

682
00:48:05,309 --> 00:48:09,329
So sometimes what I will do with Leah is I will cover her eyes or I'll cover

683
00:48:09,329 --> 00:48:12,809
her face. or I'll say to her, are you upset?

684
00:48:13,029 --> 00:48:16,629
And she'll like cover her mouth and be like, do my eyes look upset?

685
00:48:17,472 --> 00:48:23,252
And if you isolate certain aspects of a person's face, a lot of the time the picture becomes clear.

686
00:48:23,572 --> 00:48:28,432
Because if you're trying to read every line and wrinkle and expression in every

687
00:48:28,432 --> 00:48:30,852
aspect of a person's face, it's hard work.

688
00:48:31,412 --> 00:48:37,872
If you're not very astute at it or you have a deficiency in that, it's a lot of hard work.

689
00:48:37,952 --> 00:48:41,152
I mean, I have to understand what your eyes are saying, your face is saying,

690
00:48:41,252 --> 00:48:43,932
your mouth is saying, your ears are saying, your forehead is saying.

691
00:48:44,932 --> 00:48:47,812
Because everything is different. But if you're like, all right,

692
00:48:47,832 --> 00:48:51,792
just look at my eyes and tell me if you think that I'm upset right now.

693
00:48:51,912 --> 00:48:56,632
And then the picture goes, oh, I see. No, you're actually, you look like you're happy.

694
00:48:56,752 --> 00:48:58,972
Yeah, exactly. That's what is happening.

695
00:48:59,732 --> 00:49:03,812
And alternatively, if someone is smiling and you sort of look in their eyes

696
00:49:03,812 --> 00:49:07,512
and go, oh, they're not happy, their smile doesn't go all the way up to their

697
00:49:07,512 --> 00:49:10,352
eyes as is often the expression.

698
00:49:10,892 --> 00:49:15,392
I would suffer with that. Yeah. Speaking of eyes, we're going to talk about

699
00:49:15,392 --> 00:49:19,492
everybody's favorite topic now, eye contact. Yes.

700
00:49:20,032 --> 00:49:26,912
So eye contact is one of those things that as human beings has come to be very important.

701
00:49:27,072 --> 00:49:29,612
It denotes honesty. It denotes connection.

702
00:49:30,032 --> 00:49:33,632
There are so many love songs about it. I could have stood there lost in your

703
00:49:33,632 --> 00:49:35,972
eyes, blue eyes, hungry eyes.

704
00:49:36,252 --> 00:49:40,072
The eyes are very important in terms of communication between...

705
00:49:40,072 --> 00:49:43,932
Windows of a sun. Yeah, neurotypical people, at least.

706
00:49:44,552 --> 00:49:48,552
It's also a well-known thing that autistics have the diagnostic criteria.

707
00:49:49,012 --> 00:49:52,432
And it's one of those things that people will notice even if a person is highly

708
00:49:52,432 --> 00:49:56,712
masked, they will go, something is not quite right or something is a little off about that person.

709
00:49:57,312 --> 00:50:00,432
What does eye contact mean to an autistic?

710
00:50:01,232 --> 00:50:05,992
And I have a little bit of science to throw in there in a bit just for fun. You always do.

711
00:50:06,772 --> 00:50:14,212
So, that is a very common question that a lot of people will talk to autistics about.

712
00:50:14,832 --> 00:50:21,412
And they'll ask. One of the most common traits of someone with autism or a neurodivergent

713
00:50:21,412 --> 00:50:25,272
is that they have trouble looking people in the eyes. Why is that?

714
00:50:26,223 --> 00:50:30,563
And I can't speak for every autistic. In fact, the podcast kind of indicates that.

715
00:50:31,303 --> 00:50:38,183
But my answer to that question is because looking people in the eyes hurts me.

716
00:50:38,263 --> 00:50:42,143
And it's a difficult thing to explain.

717
00:50:42,283 --> 00:50:44,523
Why does it hurt you? How does it hurt you? What does it make you feel?

718
00:50:44,803 --> 00:50:48,343
It makes me feel overstimulated because eyes,

719
00:50:48,563 --> 00:50:54,983
I guess the best thing that I can say about is that eyes are so expressive in

720
00:50:54,983 --> 00:51:02,503
terms of emotions and feedback that it is a physical aversion,

721
00:51:03,403 --> 00:51:07,503
to look at the average person in the eyes.

722
00:51:07,583 --> 00:51:13,443
And actually, the story that I told last time during our episode about the uncanny

723
00:51:13,443 --> 00:51:20,123
valley is when I would work in an office and I would be speaking to a coworker

724
00:51:20,123 --> 00:51:21,683
or a manager or whatever,

725
00:51:21,903 --> 00:51:26,523
I would, depending on how authoritative they were, I would have difficulty looking

726
00:51:26,523 --> 00:51:29,883
at them in the eye because they're, you know, they're, I don't know,

727
00:51:29,963 --> 00:51:35,463
the expression is staring daggers and it really always feels like being stabbed.

728
00:51:35,603 --> 00:51:39,483
But if someone was standing over me and like giving me a talking to,

729
00:51:39,663 --> 00:51:44,323
I would generally look at the ground because the way that they were looking at me hurt me.

730
00:51:44,323 --> 00:51:48,563
Whereas if I was talking to a coworker or someone that I was friendly with,

731
00:51:48,723 --> 00:51:51,263
I'd be more likely to look them in the eyes, at least sometimes.

732
00:51:52,662 --> 00:51:59,062
And the HR complaint that I had against me was a woman said that I was scanning her body.

733
00:51:59,382 --> 00:52:02,022
But really, she was talking to me, and I was looking at her,

734
00:52:02,042 --> 00:52:04,422
finding it painful, looking away, and then trying to look at her again.

735
00:52:04,662 --> 00:52:07,302
And it really did look like my eyes were going up and down her body.

736
00:52:07,342 --> 00:52:10,102
But really, what they were doing is eye contact, can't do eye contact.

737
00:52:10,202 --> 00:52:11,402
Eye contact, can't do eye contact.

738
00:52:12,162 --> 00:52:16,822
And once that was identified, I was in the clear. But that was all due to an

739
00:52:16,822 --> 00:52:21,162
aversion to eye contact. Yes, and it's a very kind of sad and sweet because

740
00:52:21,162 --> 00:52:25,182
I love, love, love his eyes. I love them.

741
00:52:25,782 --> 00:52:31,122
But we met when we were seven, as I said, and I don't know that I knew the color

742
00:52:31,122 --> 00:52:32,722
of his eyes until we were like 15.

743
00:52:33,202 --> 00:52:37,742
Right, but that was as much due to the fact that I kept losing my glasses as

744
00:52:37,742 --> 00:52:39,522
I had difficulty making eye contact.

745
00:52:39,842 --> 00:52:43,582
No, but there was just one day when you started looking me directly in the eye.

746
00:52:43,582 --> 00:52:47,822
Yeah. And it didn't occur to me before that you weren't, but I certainly noticed

747
00:52:47,822 --> 00:52:52,422
after you were, because it was beautiful and it was sweet and it was a connection

748
00:52:52,422 --> 00:52:54,102
that we hadn't had before.

749
00:52:54,842 --> 00:52:58,722
That's not to say that all autistics struggle with it or that all autistics

750
00:52:58,722 --> 00:53:00,762
struggle with it to the extent that many do.

751
00:53:01,202 --> 00:53:07,202
And I would say that I fall somewhere in the middle in that I can sustain eye

752
00:53:07,202 --> 00:53:15,162
contact a lot of the time. I'm not always with Leah and other people that I'm very close to.

753
00:53:15,222 --> 00:53:18,022
It's generally a lot easier for me.

754
00:53:18,142 --> 00:53:24,962
But I know that there are some autistics that actually there's this woman that

755
00:53:24,962 --> 00:53:30,862
I follow occasionally on Facebook who talks about her experiences as an autistic

756
00:53:30,862 --> 00:53:32,822
mom of a neurotypical child.

757
00:53:34,122 --> 00:53:39,462
And all of her pictures on Facebook are of her like looking away or looking

758
00:53:39,462 --> 00:53:41,802
up or looking down to the extent.

759
00:53:41,882 --> 00:53:44,722
And she told me that people will often ask her if she's blind or.

760
00:53:45,569 --> 00:53:48,389
Because she's always like, her eyes are always moving around.

761
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:52,589
Do you think it might just be easier for certain autistic people to say that they're blind?

762
00:53:52,869 --> 00:53:59,169
I think maybe yes, but the fact is, like, she's not blind. Her vision's fine.

763
00:53:59,629 --> 00:54:04,289
It's just when you're looking at something. And interestingly enough,

764
00:54:04,569 --> 00:54:07,349
this also applies to the camera.

765
00:54:07,869 --> 00:54:10,789
Because if you, a lot of the time, and again, this is not universal,

766
00:54:10,949 --> 00:54:15,049
but a lot of the time, I'm an autistic person who has to stare at a camera lens to take a picture.

767
00:54:15,089 --> 00:54:18,729
We'll often have difficulty looking at the camera lens and the camera.

768
00:54:18,809 --> 00:54:20,529
There's not an eye really.

769
00:54:20,989 --> 00:54:26,349
Right. So why, why do you think? I think it might actually be that feeling.

770
00:54:26,469 --> 00:54:30,649
It's looking at, I'm looking at it and it's looking back at me because even

771
00:54:30,649 --> 00:54:34,069
as a neurotypical, I sometimes get camera shire. I'm a nervous.

772
00:54:34,189 --> 00:54:38,329
I have to talk to myself, especially before I'm being video filmed, right?

773
00:54:38,389 --> 00:54:41,249
Like a picture snap is one thing, but I'll still do

774
00:54:41,249 --> 00:54:43,889
the whole thing where I sort of like prepare my eyes and I look up in the

775
00:54:43,889 --> 00:54:47,169
correct way so my face doesn't look weird and whatever but before

776
00:54:47,169 --> 00:54:50,529
I go on camera to really speak I feel vulnerable

777
00:54:50,529 --> 00:54:56,489
I feel like it's looking at me so I I can understand that I I I tend to be very

778
00:54:56,489 --> 00:55:02,869
charismatic so people often like to talk to me and I used to dread doing video

779
00:55:02,869 --> 00:55:08,089
interviews because I I had a lot of difficulty sustaining them because this

780
00:55:08,089 --> 00:55:09,089
is something that presumably

781
00:55:09,329 --> 00:55:13,329
a lot of people are going to watch because everyone wants to hear Moshe's opinion,

782
00:55:13,369 --> 00:55:18,269
but then you get me on camera and I essentially addressed the interview to the ceiling.

783
00:55:18,889 --> 00:55:21,969
And it's like, okay, maybe like what's wrong with it.

784
00:55:22,149 --> 00:55:27,189
When I did that interview in Victoria for the, was it a food blog?

785
00:55:27,329 --> 00:55:28,289
I don't remember exactly.

786
00:55:28,589 --> 00:55:33,229
It was the Shaw T idiot. I think I struggled and they made it a lot easier because

787
00:55:33,229 --> 00:55:35,529
they did it in the interview format. So they put.

788
00:55:36,531 --> 00:55:39,251
The camera sort of to the side and then they made me look

789
00:55:39,251 --> 00:55:42,411
at the guy who was speaking to me so i wasn't looking directly to

790
00:55:42,411 --> 00:55:45,391
the camera it is it is an intimidating thing and i can't understand

791
00:55:45,391 --> 00:55:48,031
why because there's no actual person in the camera at the

792
00:55:48,031 --> 00:55:51,051
time it just feels like the camera itself is moving it does

793
00:55:51,051 --> 00:55:55,031
and some some qualities that because a lot of people will will say especially

794
00:55:55,031 --> 00:55:59,691
if they have children that uh that don't make eye contact because like leah

795
00:55:59,691 --> 00:56:04,271
said that there's this this really inconvenient and I would say unfair perception

796
00:56:04,271 --> 00:56:08,291
that a person who isn't looking you in the eyes is being dishonest, is being shifty.

797
00:56:08,711 --> 00:56:15,491
And I worked for a company in New Brunswick in Canada.

798
00:56:15,931 --> 00:56:20,331
And my manager was always on my case because the lights were really bright.

799
00:56:20,391 --> 00:56:23,231
So I had to wear sunglasses. And he said, no, you can't wear sunglasses at work

800
00:56:23,231 --> 00:56:25,311
because people can't see your face properly.

801
00:56:25,471 --> 00:56:30,211
And it doesn't look honest. And I said, okay, well, you know, do it.

802
00:56:30,591 --> 00:56:35,131
Do I have to, like, people keep saying that you're not looking at them when

803
00:56:35,131 --> 00:56:36,991
they're talking to you because you're not paying attention.

804
00:56:37,531 --> 00:56:42,471
It's a tough subject, honestly. So, what, some strategies.

805
00:56:43,331 --> 00:56:46,371
Before strategies, let me just quickly go into the science of it.

806
00:56:46,391 --> 00:56:48,711
Absolutely. Because it's really interesting. Take it away. Thank you.

807
00:56:49,151 --> 00:56:54,191
So, you can Google these studies yourself. But there have been a couple of recent studies.

808
00:56:54,351 --> 00:57:00,411
I did. where they sat a neurotypical person across from an autistic person and

809
00:57:00,411 --> 00:57:04,391
they hooked them up to EEG machines and they made them look each other in the

810
00:57:04,391 --> 00:57:05,751
eye for as long as they could stand.

811
00:57:06,231 --> 00:57:11,571
And what they noticed was that when autistics would look at people in the eye.

812
00:57:12,531 --> 00:57:18,231
They would have lower than normal activity in their dorsal parietal cortex.

813
00:57:18,371 --> 00:57:19,591
So that's a part of the brain.

814
00:57:19,751 --> 00:57:22,051
Not sure what it's responsible for. I'd have to look that up.

815
00:57:22,051 --> 00:57:26,071
I was going to ask you, what's that responsible for? I don't remember.

816
00:57:26,331 --> 00:57:30,231
I would have to look that up. We can possibly put it up on the website. Maybe.

817
00:57:30,771 --> 00:57:34,351
And it shows less activity in people with ASD.

818
00:57:34,531 --> 00:57:39,871
And the more severe their diagnosis, the lower activity is.

819
00:57:40,631 --> 00:57:45,051
So you would think, because autistics often describe everything being too bright,

820
00:57:45,191 --> 00:57:49,091
too much, too whatever, that it would be more activity, but it's less.

821
00:57:49,411 --> 00:57:55,251
And that interests me on top of that because people with ADHD used to be given sedatives.

822
00:57:55,271 --> 00:57:59,291
And as we know, that's the opposite of what you're supposed to do for ADHD because

823
00:57:59,291 --> 00:58:03,031
their up behavior, their hyper behavior isn't because their brain is doing too

824
00:58:03,031 --> 00:58:05,071
much. It's because their brain is doing too little.

825
00:58:05,271 --> 00:58:10,831
So did you catch, I see Michelle looking it up. What is the dorsal parietal

826
00:58:10,831 --> 00:58:12,751
cortex responsible for?

827
00:58:12,931 --> 00:58:23,331
So, according to one paper, the dorsal parietal cortex is responsible for top-down orienting,

828
00:58:23,331 --> 00:58:30,271
whereas the ventral parietal cortex is responsible for bottom-up orienting. So, orientation.

829
00:58:30,791 --> 00:58:35,691
So, essentially, it's like… So, vestibular orientation? Yeah,

830
00:58:35,751 --> 00:58:40,571
so it's essentially like, it controls something to do with knowing,

831
00:58:40,771 --> 00:58:44,891
you know, your field of vision.

832
00:58:44,971 --> 00:58:48,491
It has to do with the field of vision that goes from the top to the bottom.

833
00:58:48,951 --> 00:58:52,031
Interesting. I don't know what that means. I don't know what...

834
00:58:52,031 --> 00:58:56,031
Well, I mean, I know that there are more senses than we talk about,

835
00:58:56,131 --> 00:59:00,071
and one of them is the vestibular sense, which orientates yourself in space,

836
00:59:00,251 --> 00:59:03,551
and autistics often score poorly in that area.

837
00:59:03,891 --> 00:59:07,131
Right. Again, do your own research or we can look into it more for you.

838
00:59:07,151 --> 00:59:09,131
Maybe do a little write-up on our website.

839
00:59:09,551 --> 00:59:11,211
Maybe it could be a YouTube video or something.

840
00:59:11,731 --> 00:59:15,571
So just a quick note about that, just because I found it kind of interesting.

841
00:59:15,771 --> 00:59:18,551
One of my talents is speed reading. So I can kind of look at a paragraph and

842
00:59:18,551 --> 00:59:20,151
go zip. It is. Oh, there's something.

843
00:59:20,871 --> 00:59:25,431
So what is top-down orienting me? And the example they give is go to the produce

844
00:59:25,431 --> 00:59:26,631
aisle of your local supermarket.

845
00:59:26,631 --> 00:59:34,571
Market, you will notice that a lot of the higher priority items are higher and

846
00:59:34,571 --> 00:59:41,591
the less priority ones are lower because your natural state is to look from

847
00:59:41,591 --> 00:59:44,911
the top to the bottom rather than from the bottom to the top.

848
00:59:45,051 --> 00:59:53,411
So things that are at the top are more likely to catch your attention than things at the bottom.

849
00:59:54,284 --> 01:00:02,364
So, but, but they, but they determined that interruptions often happen from the bottom to the top.

850
01:00:02,484 --> 01:00:08,984
For example, if you, if you're looking at something, your more,

851
01:00:09,044 --> 01:00:12,664
your natural state is to look from the top to the bottom.

852
01:00:12,764 --> 01:00:18,384
But when you're surprised or interrupted, you actually look from the bottom up.

853
01:00:18,384 --> 01:00:21,164
Up they discovered a phenomenon that if you

854
01:00:21,164 --> 01:00:24,044
if you annoy someone that they're like reading a

855
01:00:24,044 --> 01:00:26,904
book and you like poke them they'll actually

856
01:00:26,904 --> 01:00:30,124
go like this rather than you know because your

857
01:00:30,124 --> 01:00:34,324
your attention comes from the bottom up but your focus comes from the top down

858
01:00:34,324 --> 01:00:40,604
so they suspect that it has something to do with attention with the ability

859
01:00:40,604 --> 01:00:45,124
to focus and and pay attention to certain things i don't know make of that way

860
01:00:45,124 --> 01:00:49,404
you will if you have any opinions or feelings maybe it is exactly the situation you discussed.

861
01:00:49,984 --> 01:00:53,224
Somebody's body is essentially just a bunch of body parts, but when you get

862
01:00:53,224 --> 01:00:56,984
to the eyes, everybody must admit, you're typical or not, that the eyes are

863
01:00:56,984 --> 01:00:58,044
a different thing. Absolutely.

864
01:00:58,344 --> 01:01:03,104
So it might just be the interruption. It's jarring. They're unlike other parts of the body.

865
01:01:03,204 --> 01:01:06,044
Anyway, write to us, let us know what you think about this.

866
01:01:06,144 --> 01:01:09,204
And if you want more of it, we'll figure it out. It seems like we tapped into

867
01:01:09,204 --> 01:01:12,064
a more complicated topic than we had initially thought.

868
01:01:12,764 --> 01:01:17,044
So all of this is to say, in conclusion, I want to ask, should we insist on

869
01:01:17,044 --> 01:01:21,744
eye contact, or should the world just be me to be a bit more accommodating of that situation?

870
01:01:22,164 --> 01:01:28,904
I think that applying values to bodily function.

871
01:01:29,816 --> 01:01:35,156
Is unfair. Because everyone is different. And saying that somebody who doesn't

872
01:01:35,156 --> 01:01:41,236
make eye contact is dishonest is like saying that somebody who has bad posture is lazy.

873
01:01:41,516 --> 01:01:45,916
Any interrogation investigator will tell you, somebody who is making up a lie

874
01:01:45,916 --> 01:01:47,516
will actually look up and to the left.

875
01:01:47,896 --> 01:01:51,276
So if a person is not looking up and to the left, they're likely not lying.

876
01:01:51,396 --> 01:01:54,436
Fair enough. And I've heard that as well.

877
01:01:54,716 --> 01:01:58,716
I think that eye contact is not necessarily the But be all and end all,

878
01:01:58,756 --> 01:02:03,256
there's a lot of different ways, as you said, up and to the left to denote that someone's dishonest.

879
01:02:04,196 --> 01:02:10,536
And as an interesting conclusion to that, if I'm really paying attention to

880
01:02:10,536 --> 01:02:14,236
something, with someone talking, I'll actually often close my eyes.

881
01:02:14,736 --> 01:02:19,976
And that's doubly purpose, because I actually find that reducing the visual

882
01:02:19,976 --> 01:02:24,536
stimulation causes me to pay more attention. And I've seen people be multiple

883
01:02:24,536 --> 01:02:26,896
ways on understanding, for sure.

884
01:02:27,356 --> 01:02:31,256
But also some people are like, what is wrong with you? And I've seen it happen.

885
01:02:31,256 --> 01:02:34,156
Happen people will say oh am i boring you oh

886
01:02:34,156 --> 01:02:37,576
you're falling asleep you're not paying any attention and

887
01:02:37,576 --> 01:02:40,556
actually i had a counselor a therapist once

888
01:02:40,556 --> 01:02:44,256
who i was having difficulty at school and

889
01:02:44,256 --> 01:02:49,936
the therapist or whatever came to our house and i i was sitting there listening

890
01:02:49,936 --> 01:02:54,896
to what he was saying and my eyes were closed and my parent was like well look

891
01:02:54,896 --> 01:02:57,416
look he's not even paying attention doesn't even care about what you're saying

892
01:02:57,416 --> 01:03:01,916
and it was the therapist that but looked at me and said, no, actually,

893
01:03:02,096 --> 01:03:04,136
he's paying extra attention.

894
01:03:04,316 --> 01:03:09,876
He's really listening because he's closed off his visual input in order to take

895
01:03:09,876 --> 01:03:12,096
in better what I'm trying to express.

896
01:03:12,836 --> 01:03:16,776
So that is an interesting little anecdote to end on.

897
01:03:17,016 --> 01:03:20,416
So what I'm taking at your opinion is we shouldn't force our contact on.

898
01:03:20,596 --> 01:03:23,556
Yes. That is my opinion as well. Let us know what your opinion is.

899
01:03:23,816 --> 01:03:24,736
Thank you for listening.

900
01:03:25,376 --> 01:03:28,236
Well, that's our show for today. now you know one

901
01:03:28,236 --> 01:03:34,776
autistic just a little bit better so something you may not know about some autistics

902
01:03:34,776 --> 01:03:42,056
is that we often struggle with ending social interactions so Leah all right

903
01:03:42,056 --> 01:03:47,936
Moshe i'll take care of it thank you for listening to now you know one autistic see you next week.

904
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:55,807
Music.