Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
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Music.
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Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic. I'm Leah, and I'm boring.
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Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,
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marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.
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The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.
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Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion,
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and unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the
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many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.
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But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will
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be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,
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a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.
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If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,
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consult your family doctor.
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Music.
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Hi moshe hi leah how are you today very well thank you all right so now we're
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taking up part two of communicating about communication part two communication about communication,
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we we did the the first part not last time but the time before that and it went
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a little bit long And that's okay, because people are listening to us talk.
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And if we can't always be, you know, less verbose, and sometimes more is better
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than not at all. So that's perfectly okay, because they were very interesting
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topics, and we had a lot to go into about them.
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So we left you last time with a little bit info about what we wanted to cover in this episode.
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However, we realized that when we were doing the topic of communication styles,
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we didn't necessarily thoroughly go into it.
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So Moshe wanted to go over a little bit about examples of the communication
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styles that we discussed last time.
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So, the last episode of communication, we discussed the four different kinds
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of communication styles, and I had mentioned at the end that there were some
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really good examples, but I couldn't think of them.
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So, I actually looked them up, and there were a few things, and we'll briefly
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go over them before we get into the topics today.
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So, first, the different sorts of communication styles that Leah basically went
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into are the passive, assertive, passive-aggressive, and aggressive.
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And in particular, what I was really interested in was, what is the difference
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between an aggressive speaker and an assertive speaker?
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A lot of people struggle with that. Neurotypical or neurodivergent.
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So, the brief summary is, I'll quickly kind of go over the overview.
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Defines passive speaker as emotionally dishonest, indirect, inhibited,
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self-denying, blaming, and apologetic. Ooh, dishonest?
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That's harsh. Emotionally dishonest. A passive-aggressive speaker is emotionally
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dishonest as well, indirect, self-denying at first, and self-enhancing at the
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expense of others later.
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An aggressive speaker is inappropriately honest, direct, expressive,
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attacking, blaming, controlling, and self-enhancing at the expense of others.
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Appropriately honest is how How do you start off assertive, appropriately honest,
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direct, self-enhancing, expressive, self-confident, and empathetic to the emotions
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of all the people that are involved?
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Right. So I would actually say that the aggressive description describes sort
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of if you looked up or if you saw on a popular TV show, an autistic person,
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how they would be perceived of communicating.
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So, the main definition between assertive and aggressive, because a lot of people,
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they go, what's the difference between assertive and aggressive?
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So, some examples that they give are aggressive means you establish one's needs
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and beliefs in a threatening and disrespectful way, whereas an assertive person
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shows up and supports one's beliefs without disrespecting others.
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An aggressive person is overconfident, which leads to harshness.
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An assertive person is confident and self-assured. An aggressive person is manipulative,
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hostile, demeaning, and abusive, whereas an assertive person would be direct,
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persuasive, honest, and open.
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An aggressive person would be rigid, arrogant, and rude, whereas an assertive
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person would be flexible and firm, but also soft.
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An aggressive person would never admit mistakes.
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An assertive person admits their mistakes. An aggressive person pushes their agenda forcefully.
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An assertive person has an agenda that they share by understanding other people's agenda.
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And an aggressive speaker, their goal is to disrespect others.
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Whereas an assertive person, their goal is to keep everyone happy.
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So we'll go into an example that people give.
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It's the same scenario in all four examples.
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And the scenario is a manager works in an office, and he has to get some figures
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from his assistant, John.
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So passive person might say, so no problem, Joan, you can get those figures to me whenever you want.
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Passive aggressive person would say, you know, Joan, things would run a lot
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more smoothly if people just got their reports in on time.
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An aggressive person would say, Joan, if you don't get me those numbers soon,
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there's going to be a lot of doc pay around here.
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And a discerner person would be like, hey, Joan, I know you're really busy,
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but I need to get those numbers to me by Friday at noon.
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Right so that is the main difference
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in those communication styles you're you're you're asking
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for something but the difference between
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an aggressive and an assertive speaker is on one hand the aggressive speaker
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makes threats to get what they want they're very forceful they're very pushy
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an assertive person is still you know assertive for lack of a better word but
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they They also do it in a way that respects the other person.
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You're still telling Joan, I need those numbers.
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But instead of saying, hey, if you don't give me those numbers,
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I'm going to dock your pay.
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You're saying, I get that you're really busy, but it's really important that
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you get those to me on time, please. That's the difference. Right.
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So which of those examples of how the manager handled Joan do you think is the healthiest?
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I'm asking Moshe, but I'm also asking the audience at large, truthfully.
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So, the problem with each of these communication styles, except for assertive,
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is in the event of the passive speaker,
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you are actually being very respectful of the other person, but at the expense of yourself.
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You're saying, I don't really mind, get those to me whenever.
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You do mind, but you're not actually going to tell her.
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So, on one hand, you're going to feel resentment.
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And on the other hand joan is going
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to be like oh okay i guess it's not a big deal i'll get them into you whatever
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right and at the end of the quarter when you give her a bad
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review she's not going to understand i don't understand i thought you
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said you didn't mind exactly passive aggressive is definitely the most dangerous
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in my opinion because essentially what you're doing is you're indirectly asking
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for something because it denotes essentially that nobody's happy here because
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you are unhappy because for whatever reason, you don't have the numbers you need.
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And Joan's going to be unhappy because she's like, yeah, are you trying to ask me to do something?
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And this is actually in a situation that autistic people and neurodivergent
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people often struggle with.
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Because if you take somebody at their word, then you have to assume that when
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something is said, it is said because it denotes a need.
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And if someone were to walk into the kitchen, for example and
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there's dishes on the counter you might say gosh it
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would be really nice if someone could do the dishes and then
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half an hour we go see right and
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you go why didn't you do the dishes yet and she's like you didn't ask me to
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you'd be like yeah i did i said it would be nice if someone to do the dishes
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that's your cue and she would rightfully say i didn't know that you were asking
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you to do them then an aggressive person would essentially the passive aggressive Nobody's happy.
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The person you're talking to doesn't know what you actually want.
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And the person who is talking feels unsatisfied by what they're asking for.
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It's a lose-lose situation.
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An aggressive person, what you're
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doing is you are satisfying yourself by putting the other person down.
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So you're happy. They're not happy. be.
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And they could rightfully say to you, if you wanted me to do the dishes,
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you could have just said so. You don't have to be mean about it.
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You don't have to yell. You don't have to be angry.
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If you need something done, just tell me you need it done.
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You would go into the kitchen and be like, I asked you to do the dishes. Like,
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two hours ago and they're still not done. There's going to be serious consequences.
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We're not going to do anything. You're not going to get to go out.
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It's going to be a whole thing.
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Now, the difference between that and assertive is, okay, you know what?
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The dishes have been waiting there for a while. I see that you're really tired
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today and I see that you're busy.
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I really need those dishes to be done so that I can make supper.
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Would you be able to do that?
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More often than not, Melissa, I'm really fed up. That's how I'll approach it.
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Two things come to mind just during your explanation.
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The first is how many people in my life in particular are very aggressive communicators.
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It's almost disturbing, truthfully.
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And secondly, you brought up false confidence or overconfidence.
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Over false confidence, that is an issue.
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I find not necessarily with neurotypical versus neurodivergent,
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but with a certain personality type, like an A-type personality,
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people will have overconfidence, and it's false confidence. It's based in nothing.
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Tell me about your experiences with that.
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See, the overconfidence and the over false confidence are different,
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because you can be overconfident.
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Maybe you're very good at something, and you're not taking into other people's
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account. So let's say you're, you're really, really good at,
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I don't know, stacking boxes.
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You can be like, I can stack 50 boxes in an hour and you can't,
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you're very good at boxes, but you're not that fast.
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Let's say, whereas over false confidence is essential.
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You don't actually think that you can stack very many boxes at all,
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but you say you can because you don't believe in yourself.
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You're actually denoting or demeaning yourself by expressing something to make,
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I don't know, Maybe your aim is to make people feel better.
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Maybe it's to make you feel better. Maybe it's to placate someone.
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But when you know that you're boosting yourself up falsely, then you're actually
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indicating that you have very low self-esteem and a low belief in yourself.
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What about when people boost themselves up falsely, but they don't know it's false?
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They genuinely think they're the best, I don't know, astronaut on the planet or something. Yeah.
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Those are very difficult people to deal with because what you,
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what you need to do in those cases is if you don't really care that much and
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be like, all right, whatever.
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Sure, sure, sure. You're, you're the greatest. You invented everything that's ever been invented.
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Or if you, if you want to challenge that, or you want to help the person,
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say it's someone that you genuinely love or, or want to want to help in,
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in their ability to be a better, more functional person. You can be like, okay.
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I'm really glad that you can wash dishes in five minutes. So let's see if you can do that.
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Let's go ahead. Show me what you can do. Right. And that's a lot of times where I'm at with people.
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They'll say, I did the blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, yeah? Show me.
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And it becomes very difficult. And unfortunately, a lot of these people have
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some other, I don't know, some other things going on.
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Sometimes you mean like the people who generally
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believe they're overconfidence yes yeah
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so a lot i guess they have mental health issues or something that's something
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i'm not willing to dive into because we don't even have a lot of life experience
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with that for sure however if any viewers out there or listeners sorry out there
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do they can absolutely let us know yeah so that is a
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great way to segue into the first,
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or rather the next topic in our communication.
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This is a very interesting topic, Moshe. I think I say that about every topic.
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Yes. People are going to start making fun of me again. Maybe it'll be a merchandise.
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This is the best. It's the best, Moshe, best. The best.
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We're laughing because everything in Israel is super. It's not just a pharmacy. It's a super farm.
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It's not just a grocery store. It's super grocery. three.
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Yes. And not just a great doctor. They're the best doctor that's ever doctored
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ever. Yeah, absolutely.
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So we're going to be discussing the double empathy problem.
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It's a very interesting problem that you can do quite a deep dive into if you choose to.
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So let's see where this goes and how much time you spend on it. Okay.
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The definition that I found while I was researching it is people with very different
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life experiences or who experience the world differently when they interact with one another,
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they will struggle to empathize with one another.
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These are often exacerbated by difference in language and comprehension.
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It leads to a mutual breakdown of communication.
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Right. So the graphic that I have here denotes the problem between a neurodivergent
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or an autistic person, say, and a non-autistic person.
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And it's exactly what you said. Both parties will struggle to understand each
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other's thoughts, feelings, behavior, and differences.
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And one of the main issues that every one of those people has to struggle with
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is individualized based on where they stand.
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The autistic person often struggles to see nuance.
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An autistic person often struggles to overcome other people's misconceptions.
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The autistic person may struggle to manage sensory distractions,
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whereas the neurotypical or holistic or whatever, they struggle to form positive first impressions.
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They may struggle to recognize and understand the autistic, and they may struggle
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to imagine autistic sensory difficulties.
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And this is really, really, really, really important as it defined the beginning of our relationship.
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It defines a lot of relationships. So if you look just at the definition that
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I spoke, right? Different experiences of the world.
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Between autistic and holistic people, they experience the world vastly differently,
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even if they're in the same exact situation.
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Struggling with language right you know
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it's one of the hallmarks of autism to struggle with language even
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if you're speaking the same language which can make it very confusing and
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frustrating for people and also different
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comprehension of things where an autistic will tend
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to take things very literally like you like to give the
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example of Amelia Bedelia yeah they told her to
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make the bed an holistic child might just throw
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their covers on the bed where she went and she got the wood and the
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hammer and the tools and she was making a bet right so
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even differences in comprehension so that
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leads itself to unbelievable misunderstandings and it's literally nobody's fault
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because you're saying the thing as honestly as you possibly can say it i'm saying
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the thing as honestly as i possibly can say it but the words are not meaning
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the same thing to the other person right.
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Because when you are neurodivergent, oftentimes you are said to struggle with empathy.
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And that is actually, our experience is that's actually not right.
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Autistic people don't struggle necessarily with empathy.
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They struggle with double empathy, which is the phenomenon or the problem of
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understanding an other person's experiences.
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It's not that they don't care a lot of the time. It's that they don't understand
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what they're supposed to be caring about.
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Exactly. So, for example, I don't know, a Tylenol commercial with puppy dogs
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in it might make me cry and sad.
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It doesn't mean that Moshe doesn't have empathy for the puppy dogs or he doesn't
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have empathy for me who's sad about the puppy dogs.
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It's just that puppy dogs don't make him feel that way.
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So he has no frame of reference for understanding why I'm feeling that way.
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So he would rightly say, why are you crying? Why are you feeling that way?
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That doesn't even make sense.
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And that would come off as definitely sort of lacking empathy.
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Do you agree with that? Exactly.
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It's the whole, it's not that I don't care. It's that I don't,
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number one, I might not understand why you care.
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And I don't understand necessarily why I should care, except that you see,
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it's essentially something that I've described many times, which is,
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I don't understand why this upsets you, but I love you.
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You so i'm upset that you're upset
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the reality is if you break it down a lot of
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the times it isn't even something you should care about it's
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just that at large it's expected if that makes sense
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exactly what we discovered too long
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into our relationship if you ask me but what we discovered is
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there's a reason why it's called the double empathy problem it
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goes in both directions there were things that would upset moshe that i would
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not understand till this day i still don't understand because i have no frame
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of reference for those things to be upsetting me it does go both ways and if
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you looked at it from his perspective then i would be lacking empathy exactly,
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So, let's discuss some examples of the double empathy problem.
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And again, I want to emphasize that even though we're discussing it from the
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perspective of an autistic or neurodivergent person and a non-autistic or allistic person,
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it can happen in any relationships and it happens a lot of the time.
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But it's particularly remarkable in that it falls into another category that
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we may or may not discuss at a certain point in the future, which is the you-should-know-this thing.
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Oh, absolutely. We're going to discuss that. which I have a lot of issues with,
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because the you should know this thing is a very interesting situation.
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Because a lot of these things, once again, as with many neurodivergent qualities and characteristics.
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It comes with development and experience and maybe perspective into maybe something
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instinctual, which an autistic person or a neurodivergent person often may lack.
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Something that happens to me a lot, actually, is the understanding,
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and this is one of the most common differences between an autistic and a non-autistic,
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but it also happens with people who struggle with mental illness and people who don't.
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Because what it what it looks like is
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it looks like an example of diminishing a
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person's experiences and what they're doing is they're attempting to relate
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but by relating they're coming across as condescending and an example of that
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is i will say because i am autistic you you knew that right I am autistic,
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and one of my sensitivities is sound sensitivities.
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So occasionally, particularly very high-pitched sounds will cause me to cover
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my ears or become very agitated.
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And I will say something like,
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I have a sound sensitivity because I'm autistic. And then a person will go,
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yeah, I don't like loud noises either.
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Or, you know, I'll say I have a processing delay because I'm autistic.
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And they'll say, yeah, sometimes it's hard for me to make up my mind too.
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And they're completely innocent in their ability to try and relate to you.
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But in doing that, they're essentially reducing your experience in the same
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way that you're telling somebody,
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I don't know, someone who's, who struggled their whole life with let's say major
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depression and being told, you know, sometimes when I'm sad,
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I just smile and I feel better. Right.
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Exactly. Maybe, have you tried, you know, just thinking happy thoughts?
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Have you tried smiling more? Like the diet culture? Have you tried eating less?
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Yeah. I struggle with, you know, body image.
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Well, you know, have you tried eating less and going to the gym? Exactly. Yeah.
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I understand exactly what you're talking about there. And a lot of times these
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suggestions or advice comes unsolicited. For sure.
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And it is extremely unfortunate that a lot of this difficulty with understanding
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neurodivergent person often comes from the autistic person or the neurodivergent person's character.
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And if you are the parent of an autistic person, then oftentimes you will become an autistic champion,
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say, and be like, my son or my daughter is autistic.
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So let me tell you what you need to know about what being autistic means.
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And meanwhile, the autistic person is just kind of sitting there,
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you know, like, I guess, I guess they're an expert now. Right.
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But that's still better than the alternative of not understanding it all.
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It comes from a good place.
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Sometimes. I think a lot of the time it does. Sometimes it does.
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And you see this a lot, actually, because again, as I mentioned in a previous episode,
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I spend a lot of time on autistic boards, because I kind of want to know what
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exactly the parents of autistics and people who have autism are thinking about and struggling with,
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and what are some issues that maybe we should talk about in a future episode,
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and maybe some commonalities.
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And what I see time and time and time again is these
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things that make the person come across like they're the parent of Superman
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or this new form of life that nobody has ever seen. And again...
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It absolutely comes from a fantastic place, I'm sure.
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And they're absolutely trying to come across to boost their child.
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But in doing so, they're essentially giving them an otherness,
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which will harm them in the long run. My son is a superhero.
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You know what he did today? He washed a dish.
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That makes me so upset. He is my favorite person in the whole world because
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he put on his pants properly today, and he only threw up twice when he ate a food he didn't like.
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So I think what Moshe's saying here is that he's not trying to minimize the
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struggles of people who have issues with putting on their pants correctly or
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throwing up when they eat a trigger food.
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What he's trying to say is that you're minimizing your expectation of another
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human being when you treat it that way.
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Right. You would never say that to a neurotypical person like,
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yeah, you got out of bed today.
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Congratulations. Right. And if you did, it would come across as condescending and patronizing.
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Because people, regardless, when you set a bar for them, they reach it.
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And if you set the bar too low, that's all they're ever going to reach,
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unless they're a very specific type of person.
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Yeah, you don't want to set the bar too high, because then essentially you're
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setting up your child for failure.
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And again, we're going to do whole episodes just dealing with autistic children
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and things that autistic children struggle with and parents of autistic children.
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But in particular, if you set the bar too high, then you're essentially setting
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yourself up for failure, for being disappointed.
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And if you set the bar too low, then you're limiting your child's potential.
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Because being autistic does not mean that they are non-functional,
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not necessarily. The only time you should.
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Clap for somebody having put their pants on as if they were in a coma previously.
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Exactly. Yeah. So the expectation needs to be set that not only is this not
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something special, it's something that they should be doing anyway.
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If it's, I mean, and again, that hasn't been said, I'm not trying to diminish or limit the struggle.
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We're going to hear from the parents who said, well, my son couldn't put his
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pants on for a year and then he finally accomplished it. Great.
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And that's wonderful. What are you working on next?
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Right. You can tell the child, you know what, buddy, you did a great job.
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Your pants are on straight. Let's keep doing that.
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Let's work on your shirt buttons. Yeah, let's figure out your buttons.
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But don't make a whole parade in town square over the fact that your child put
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on their pants properly, because that's the minimal expectation.
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There is an adult TikToker.
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I don't want to bring it up right now. It's going to be brought up eventually,
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but I don't want to bring it up right now who it is. But there is an adult TikToker
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who was a full-on adult, and their parent just congratulates them for the most ludicrous of things.
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And it's just, it's uncomfortable, to be honest with you.
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For sure. It feels like going to Marine Land and watching the dolphins perform.
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We're going to talk about this person quite a bit in this podcast,
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because it's actually one of the impetuses that I had for wanting to do the
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podcast in the first place.
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And i would very much like to involve
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them in the podcast in a future episode if
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if if they sell we'll move on their caregiver
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doesn't even let them do their own media but it doesn't matter anyway i want
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to bring us back to a point you made when we first started discussing the devil
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empathy problem because people i guess like to hear examples that you can get
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off the internet or general examples but they're here to listen to us so you
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said this was a huge problem at the beginning of our relationship.
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Let's talk about that a little bit. So, double empathy.
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Is frustrating. And again, as Leah said, from both ends.
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Because so much, as I said in, I think, the first episode, so much time is spent
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trying to discuss how autistic people struggle to relate, or how neurotypical
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people struggle to relate to autistic people.
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But not a lot of emphasis, or not a lot of time is spent on looking at it from
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the other perspective, on how an autistic person often struggles to understand
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or relate or empathize with the neurotypical.
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And when you have a situation or a sensitivity or a limitation or a struggle,
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I don't know, whatever you want to call it, that is mundane or normal or basic or even strange,
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then it's hard to understand not just why you need to do it,
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but why it matters to you.
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And the one that I will use over and over and over again is my most common one,
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which is, as an autistic person, one of the things that I struggle with a lot
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is understanding my own emotions.
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I went through a lot of struggles, especially early on, where I was said to
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have anger issues, and I was said to have depression, and I was said to.
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Not know how to emotionally regulate myself, and I would push people.
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There's a lot of problems. So emotional expression and emotional understanding
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was a challenge for me for a lot of my life.
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And so one of my own ways of dealing with it, especially with Leah,
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is to use her brain or functionality, I guess, to better understand appropriateness.
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So i will i will go to her
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and i will say this thing
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makes me very sad and she will say okay so what do you want what do you want
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to do and i said i don't want to do anything i just want it to be acknowledged
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that it makes me sad and for a long time she struggled with that she says why
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why if you if you don't want anything done about that why do you talk about it why do you bring it
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up why do you express it and i was like good for
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you i guess and and that is that
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was a challenge and i explained to her that for
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me it's like you're you're
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handing this broken thing this this small you know whatever it is this inanimate
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emotional bubble to a person that you care about and you trust and you put it
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in their hands and you go you know can you can you take this from me and do something with it.
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And a lot of the time, what you want done with it is just acknowledgement.
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And the reaction comes across as patronizing.
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Because a neurotypical oftentimes doesn't need to have something acknowledged and then just left.
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It would actually come across as callous or patronizing. Yeah,
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it's a thing that you're actually taught never to do.
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So, for example, when somebody says, I'm really upset at you for doing the blah, blah, blah.
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You're never supposed to say i'm sorry you
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felt that way right ever because that is
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shirking responsibility and that's making sort of
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them responsible for their feelings but you didn't do anything right so it was
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actually a thing you were asking me to do that is contrary to everything that
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we're taught about right and the reason that leah is the person that i approach
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is because i I love her and I trust her.
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And I'm taking something that I struggle with, which is an emotion,
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and I'm putting it in her hands.
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And I'm saying, look at it. Look at this poor sad emotion or look at this poor angry emotion.
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And the reaction I'm looking for is, oh, this is such a sad little emotion.
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And then I can go, yeah, it is, isn't it? And then I feel better.
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I know it sounds absolutely bonkers to a lot of you out there.
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It might make sense to some of you out there. I'd actually like to hear from
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other people who have this phenomenon.
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But I have always been taught that apologies with no action mean nothing.
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I've always been taught that you're not supposed to say, I'm sorry you feel
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that way. You're supposed to say, I'm sorry I did the thing.
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So it was a high learning curve for me.
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Because I was like, honey, I'm so sorry you're upset about that.
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Now what do you want me to do with this? And there was literally zero.
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Exactly. And you'd be like, I don't know, give me a hug. Right.
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So it's the minimum effort for the maximum outcome.
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And I still would love to be able to shed more light on it because it's a fascinating principle.
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But for me, it's really about the fact that I've struggled often in my life
444
00:31:29,633 --> 00:31:31,973
with understanding my own emotions.
445
00:31:31,973 --> 00:31:35,053
And so what i'm really saying
446
00:31:35,053 --> 00:31:38,173
is this this thing is sadness right and
447
00:31:38,173 --> 00:31:41,633
she'll go yeah it's sadness i'll go okay thank you it
448
00:31:41,633 --> 00:31:45,233
it helps me feel more safe and secure in having
449
00:31:45,233 --> 00:31:49,933
a feeling because sometimes i'll react a certain way and it will be related
450
00:31:49,933 --> 00:31:55,353
to something completely unrelated emotional dysregulation and emotional misidentification
451
00:31:55,353 --> 00:32:02,353
i'm really upset and so i'm I'm going to do something that's not related to
452
00:32:02,353 --> 00:32:03,613
being upset. I don't pick a thing.
453
00:32:04,336 --> 00:32:09,116
Whereas the way that I work, and a lot of other neurotypicals tend to work as
454
00:32:09,116 --> 00:32:15,436
far as I know, is that if you're upset about a thing, once the thing is resolved, the upset goes away.
455
00:32:15,696 --> 00:32:19,416
Right. Because there's no thing to be upset about anymore, so why do it?
456
00:32:19,416 --> 00:32:26,536
Now, this actually works in reverse too, because it's not so dissimilar from
457
00:32:26,536 --> 00:32:33,376
something that a lot of neurotypicals do in relationships where they will sit
458
00:32:33,376 --> 00:32:37,216
down with their partner at dinner or they will come to bed and go,
459
00:32:37,336 --> 00:32:40,076
oh, that person at work today made me so upset.
460
00:32:40,076 --> 00:32:44,556
They did the whatever, and then they asked for a thing, and then I was feeling
461
00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:47,336
this, and I did that, and it was just awful.
462
00:32:47,576 --> 00:32:50,876
I had such a bad day because of this person.
463
00:32:51,336 --> 00:32:57,776
And when you talk to an autistic person, you generally, they're looking for an answer.
464
00:32:57,876 --> 00:33:00,536
They're looking for expression. They're looking for a thing.
465
00:33:01,736 --> 00:33:04,776
And a concept that is not that
466
00:33:04,776 --> 00:33:07,756
is similar to that but not something that
467
00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:12,096
we are very good at doing is acknowledgement
468
00:33:12,096 --> 00:33:17,016
and again it sounds completely contradictory because on one hand i'm asking
469
00:33:17,016 --> 00:33:20,516
for acknowledgement but on the other hand they're looking for an acknowledgement
470
00:33:20,516 --> 00:33:26,296
and yes but what i'm wanting acknowledged is far more complex and you may not
471
00:33:26,296 --> 00:33:29,356
have thought the entire thing through in order to acknowledge it correctly.
472
00:33:29,796 --> 00:33:33,136
Right. What you're asking for is, is this sad? Yeah, it's sad.
473
00:33:33,476 --> 00:33:38,036
Okay, well, that's a very simple thing. Whereas this person asked me for this,
474
00:33:38,036 --> 00:33:40,276
then why is it, why are you upset about that, Leah?
475
00:33:40,456 --> 00:33:43,816
Well, it might be because I told you six other times that that person asked
476
00:33:43,816 --> 00:33:47,036
me for it and it's not my job. You haven't yet calculated that part.
477
00:33:47,538 --> 00:33:52,878
Exactly. It becomes a very complex scenario. And the end of that story is,
478
00:33:53,018 --> 00:33:55,238
I don't actually want you to do anything.
479
00:33:55,698 --> 00:34:00,498
I just want you to go, yeah, that Carol is such a bad person.
480
00:34:00,618 --> 00:34:02,398
Just agree with the person. Yeah, exactly.
481
00:34:02,878 --> 00:34:05,718
Whereas for an autistic, I can see where that's hard because it's like,
482
00:34:05,758 --> 00:34:08,538
what am I agreeing with? I'm not in this situation. I have no idea.
483
00:34:08,538 --> 00:34:10,798
Yes, I wasn't there. How do I know that she was?
484
00:34:11,218 --> 00:34:16,518
I know that you feel that way, but why is the result that you're looking for
485
00:34:16,518 --> 00:34:21,778
for me to acknowledge that that person is a bad person? Right.
486
00:34:22,238 --> 00:34:26,738
Because I said so, and you have to agree with me, and that's a concept that
487
00:34:26,738 --> 00:34:29,358
you struggled with a lot. You just want agreement. You want understanding.
488
00:34:29,858 --> 00:34:34,338
But it's a very difficult concept, and empathy in that sense is hard,
489
00:34:34,518 --> 00:34:36,418
because I have no frame of reference.
490
00:34:36,738 --> 00:34:39,878
I mean, maybe if I know the person, I know, yeah, I know, the last time that
491
00:34:39,878 --> 00:34:41,158
this happened, this happened too.
492
00:34:41,478 --> 00:34:44,558
That brings up a topic that we also acknowledged again today,
493
00:34:44,638 --> 00:34:48,578
but we discussed a long time ago, which is agreeing, always backing up your
494
00:34:48,578 --> 00:34:51,238
partner, agreeing with them in public, even if you know they're wrong,
495
00:34:51,358 --> 00:34:53,998
and talking to them about it later. Yes.
496
00:34:54,678 --> 00:35:00,118
That is a very, again, a very difficult concept for autistics because they are autistic people.
497
00:35:00,158 --> 00:35:04,998
And again, I want to just whoa back and go, I say it's a difficult concept for
498
00:35:04,998 --> 00:35:07,698
autistics, not because I'm saying that all autistics struggle with it,
499
00:35:07,718 --> 00:35:10,038
but because oftentimes this comes up.
500
00:35:10,258 --> 00:35:14,518
It's a, if you will, a stereotype that they're very factual.
501
00:35:14,518 --> 00:35:18,618
If you feel like a
502
00:35:18,618 --> 00:35:21,738
person is not correct then it is the instinct of
503
00:35:21,738 --> 00:35:27,498
them to go out actually that's not what happened and what we fail to grasp is
504
00:35:27,498 --> 00:35:31,278
it doesn't matter right it doesn't matter that that's what happened exactly
505
00:35:31,278 --> 00:35:36,478
this is how it made me feel and that's what i'm telling you about right i think
506
00:35:36,478 --> 00:35:38,058
this actually goes back to a point
507
00:35:38,058 --> 00:35:41,638
where one of our friends actually we're pretty to get friends with now,
508
00:35:41,738 --> 00:35:44,758
said something that bothered me. And you were like, why does it bother you?
509
00:35:44,818 --> 00:35:47,478
And I was like, it bothers me because it does. And now it bothers you too,
510
00:35:47,538 --> 00:35:48,878
mister. And it was a fight.
511
00:35:50,078 --> 00:35:55,498
Because if I don't understand the reason for a person to be upset.
512
00:35:56,289 --> 00:35:59,069
Or angry and when i hear
513
00:35:59,069 --> 00:36:02,229
it back i still don't understand it then the
514
00:36:02,229 --> 00:36:05,209
default needs to be just we can talk about it
515
00:36:05,209 --> 00:36:08,129
but just in public say yeah you're you
516
00:36:08,129 --> 00:36:12,469
were out of line doing that thing and then later though why why why were you
517
00:36:12,469 --> 00:36:15,969
upset about that like what why was that why was she out of line i don't understand
518
00:36:15,969 --> 00:36:19,929
but that is the thing you always have to be open to that private discussion
519
00:36:19,929 --> 00:36:25,009
later or else it does cause issues so all of that is to say in summarize that
520
00:36:25,009 --> 00:36:27,009
the The beginning of our relationship was rough.
521
00:36:27,629 --> 00:36:33,769
It was. It was hours and hours and hours of miscommunications and sort of yelling
522
00:36:33,769 --> 00:36:37,429
at each other in the same language, but a different language to just come to
523
00:36:37,429 --> 00:36:40,169
the conclusion that we were saying the same thing to each other, really.
524
00:36:40,449 --> 00:36:46,509
This is to say that communication is— I mean, our romantic relationship at this point.
525
00:36:46,569 --> 00:36:50,529
Again, I'll probably have to do a small episode explaining this whole thing.
526
00:36:50,529 --> 00:36:55,969
I, we intended when we went through all the episode ideas that we were thinking about,
527
00:36:56,089 --> 00:37:01,389
that we were going to do an episode that's exclusively dealing with some of
528
00:37:01,389 --> 00:37:03,189
the more difficult times in
529
00:37:03,189 --> 00:37:07,729
our relationship and sort of talking about it in an open and honest way.
530
00:37:07,729 --> 00:37:11,149
Because the reality is for any relationship, when you move from friendship,
531
00:37:11,309 --> 00:37:14,869
which is very close and very nice, to a romantic relationship,
532
00:37:15,029 --> 00:37:16,689
the stakes get very high.
533
00:37:16,829 --> 00:37:22,229
The exponential growth of the stakes between you two is scary for anyone.
534
00:37:22,509 --> 00:37:26,749
And if you're having communication issues, it's hard. It's really hard.
535
00:37:27,029 --> 00:37:33,529
So what is... So I have a note here. It's really funny. Sometimes I make myself laugh.
536
00:37:33,709 --> 00:37:37,169
All it says is double autism, question mark.
537
00:37:37,409 --> 00:37:41,649
And I don't really remember the reference, but I feel like we're going to explore
538
00:37:41,649 --> 00:37:46,449
the idea of the double empathy problem between two autistics because theoretically
539
00:37:46,449 --> 00:37:48,729
they should be able to understand each other better.
540
00:37:48,969 --> 00:37:53,449
But there are times where you'll tell Avram something and he'll take it so literally
541
00:37:53,449 --> 00:37:55,029
that it's not even what you said.
542
00:37:55,029 --> 00:38:01,069
Yes. And it's kind of almost a humorous comedy of errors, if you will.
543
00:38:01,269 --> 00:38:07,809
Because Avram and I connect best when we're both acting autistic.
544
00:38:08,269 --> 00:38:16,289
But we connect the worst when I'm attempting to act how I perceive as normal.
545
00:38:16,289 --> 00:38:23,129
Because when you shut down the parts of your mind that allow you to understand
546
00:38:23,129 --> 00:38:27,169
things that are oftentimes nonsensical or subtle,
547
00:38:27,349 --> 00:38:33,749
then you're preventing yourself from being able to understand the curiosities
548
00:38:33,749 --> 00:38:36,149
that are going on with the autistic mind.
549
00:38:37,469 --> 00:38:41,369
And oftentimes Avram will look at me and go, you're feeling this way because
550
00:38:41,369 --> 00:38:42,569
of this, right? And I'm like, yeah.
551
00:38:42,709 --> 00:38:46,749
And sometimes Avram will say something. And I'll be like, this is why he's saying
552
00:38:46,749 --> 00:38:48,429
this. And it turns out that I'm right.
553
00:38:49,015 --> 00:38:53,035
Because I can notice things, and I can detect things, and I can receive things
554
00:38:53,035 --> 00:38:56,555
that other people might not be looking for necessarily.
555
00:38:57,035 --> 00:39:02,135
Right. But I feel like what we're discussing here, or what I was trying to discuss, is the opposite.
556
00:39:02,635 --> 00:39:06,195
So where even you two won't understand each other necessarily.
557
00:39:06,715 --> 00:39:09,835
And we won't. So I think maybe the other day you asked him to put his shoes
558
00:39:09,835 --> 00:39:13,495
on. Yes. And in your mind, that included putting his socks on.
559
00:39:13,675 --> 00:39:17,175
Yes. And he just put his shoes on. And you were like, socks?
560
00:39:17,175 --> 00:39:20,155
Socks and was like you didn't say socks right and
561
00:39:20,155 --> 00:39:23,055
to me i was like oh look that was sort of double autism right
562
00:39:23,055 --> 00:39:26,395
there double autism because i'll i'll say a thing without
563
00:39:26,395 --> 00:39:29,175
any you know descriptors and he'll
564
00:39:29,175 --> 00:39:32,235
do a thing based on how he interpreted what i said and
565
00:39:32,235 --> 00:39:35,295
took it completely literally and a lot
566
00:39:35,295 --> 00:39:39,275
of the time it it becomes a problem and it
567
00:39:39,275 --> 00:39:42,895
it creates a lot of humorous situations where you
568
00:39:42,895 --> 00:39:45,815
would look at the situation well you should know better than
569
00:39:45,815 --> 00:39:48,655
to to do the effect it it is if any of the
570
00:39:48,655 --> 00:39:51,615
major networks wants to pick up you know our sitcom it would
571
00:39:51,615 --> 00:39:54,355
be very funny it would be it would be
572
00:39:54,355 --> 00:39:57,955
a very interesting situation that deals
573
00:39:57,955 --> 00:40:01,255
specifically with autistic people misunderstanding
574
00:40:01,255 --> 00:40:08,995
each other and in it could get very neared i i i would definitely you know maybe
575
00:40:08,995 --> 00:40:14,255
it's it's the newest it's the newest sitcom on on network television you know
576
00:40:14,255 --> 00:40:18,475
We put two autistics in a house together and watch what happens.
577
00:40:20,115 --> 00:40:25,195
So that brings me to misunderstandings. That's a very broad topic, but pretty simple.
578
00:40:25,415 --> 00:40:30,575
I think a lot of our podcast in general has been discussing misunderstandings and how they happen.
579
00:40:30,815 --> 00:40:33,675
When we have misunderstandings, how do we deal with them?
580
00:40:34,468 --> 00:40:39,788
And misunderstandings often should, at the very least, involve the sentence,
581
00:40:39,968 --> 00:40:41,048
what did you mean by that?
582
00:40:41,248 --> 00:40:47,408
Right. Because I have mentioned to Leah, and I can mention to our audience,
583
00:40:47,608 --> 00:40:52,128
that a lot of the things that I say are not actually the things that I necessarily
584
00:40:52,128 --> 00:40:58,568
mean, or that the thing that I'm saying is not meant to be taken the way that
585
00:40:58,568 --> 00:41:01,108
it would possibly be interpreted as.
586
00:41:01,928 --> 00:41:04,688
And you could say well why don't you just say what
587
00:41:04,688 --> 00:41:07,828
you mean and the answer is because i am or i
588
00:41:07,828 --> 00:41:10,608
don't necessarily know what i mean or i'm saying a thing
589
00:41:10,608 --> 00:41:14,008
that resembles the thing that i'm trying to say and leah
590
00:41:14,008 --> 00:41:17,608
mentioned i think in in a previous episode that i often use the word adjacent
591
00:41:17,608 --> 00:41:23,148
to the word that i'm trying to say and it it becomes i don't know is there like
592
00:41:23,148 --> 00:41:29,868
an actual condition where you talk in words that are resembling but not entirely
593
00:41:29,868 --> 00:41:33,908
like the words you're trying to say? I believe it's called autism.
594
00:41:34,508 --> 00:41:38,648
Right, okay. I think actually it may be called a seizure. Don't quote me,
595
00:41:38,708 --> 00:41:39,768
but I'd have to look it up.
596
00:41:41,008 --> 00:41:47,728
It's an interesting concept because when—I'm trying to think of a specific example
597
00:41:47,728 --> 00:41:52,868
recently that I said a thing, but I actually meant the thing adjacent to the thing that I was
598
00:41:52,948 --> 00:41:55,868
trying to say and and it can be something as simple
599
00:41:55,868 --> 00:41:58,668
as honey do you remember where where
600
00:41:58,668 --> 00:42:01,888
where uh the thing was and i'll be like it's in
601
00:42:01,888 --> 00:42:06,328
the living room i i mean the kitchen right actually i can't think of your most
602
00:42:06,328 --> 00:42:11,028
recent one but i remember a funny one that my grandmother said once she was
603
00:42:11,028 --> 00:42:15,128
trying to say that her toe was bothering her and she pointed at her toe and
604
00:42:15,128 --> 00:42:20,028
she said my foot finger is bothering you my foot finger that kind of thing the finger of the foot?
605
00:42:20,368 --> 00:42:25,848
My foot finger, that is completely understandable as far as I can see it.
606
00:42:25,948 --> 00:42:27,908
Maybe she was neurodivergent. Maybe.
607
00:42:28,428 --> 00:42:32,188
And a funny thing that I don't know if it's the same thing or not that used
608
00:42:32,188 --> 00:42:35,428
to happen to me at work. I've worked for a long time in call centers.
609
00:42:36,248 --> 00:42:41,508
And a lot of the funniest moments, which we will get into,
610
00:42:41,668 --> 00:42:46,368
a lot of the funniest moments in our relationship and in my life overall have
611
00:42:46,368 --> 00:42:56,548
come with the way that I express myself and the funny things that I end up doing.
612
00:42:56,688 --> 00:43:02,108
And one of the funniest things, which actually isn't that uncommon now that
613
00:43:02,108 --> 00:43:07,888
I've talked to people about it, is when I would want to put people on hold,
614
00:43:08,088 --> 00:43:10,608
I would ask them if I could hold them for a second.
615
00:43:12,268 --> 00:43:14,968
And in my mind, it was like, yeah, hold, hold them. You know,
616
00:43:15,028 --> 00:43:17,428
can I put you on hold? Can I hold you?
617
00:43:18,608 --> 00:43:21,928
It made perfect sense in my mind. I'm asking to hold you.
618
00:43:22,702 --> 00:43:27,942
I'm taking hold, and I'm applying it to you, so therefore, can I hold you for a second?
619
00:43:28,542 --> 00:43:32,282
And people have laughed, and they've said, well, I mean, I don't know how that's
620
00:43:32,282 --> 00:43:34,882
going to work, or if you really want to, I guess.
621
00:43:35,482 --> 00:43:39,442
Or they'll just be, like, the joke will just, they'll just be like, what?
622
00:43:40,302 --> 00:43:44,862
I don't understand what you mean. But it happens a lot, unfortunately. Yeah, it does.
623
00:43:45,682 --> 00:43:50,442
So, ultimately, yes, misunderstandings, asking what did you mean by that?
624
00:43:50,442 --> 00:43:56,402
And our favorite word for this podcast communication about it clears up a lot
625
00:43:56,402 --> 00:43:59,962
of misunderstandings and it does sound like a lot of work but it's worth it
626
00:43:59,962 --> 00:44:02,922
for the future because the next time the same thing happens you're ready to
627
00:44:02,922 --> 00:44:04,642
go like you already know what's happening,
628
00:44:05,182 --> 00:44:09,782
right but it does need to be identified and and this is in no way excusing bad
629
00:44:09,782 --> 00:44:16,682
behavior if if someone says thing and then say what did you mean by that well
630
00:44:16,682 --> 00:44:22,822
i meant this oh okay or or the uh or Or the common thing that a lot of parents
631
00:44:22,822 --> 00:44:24,482
will do with their kids, like when they swear.
632
00:44:24,822 --> 00:44:28,602
And they'll go, excuse me, you want to try that again? Or you want to say that again?
633
00:44:29,382 --> 00:44:33,582
I don't think I heard you. It sounded like you were saying, you know, a bad word.
634
00:44:34,202 --> 00:44:37,542
One of my favorite things that my father used to actually say,
635
00:44:37,602 --> 00:44:41,162
when he would say something ludicrous, he would sort of wiggle the inside of
636
00:44:41,162 --> 00:44:43,702
his ear and say, excuse me, I think I had something stupid in my ear.
637
00:44:45,822 --> 00:44:49,362
Yes, I oftentimes have stupid things in my ear.
638
00:44:50,682 --> 00:44:53,622
So that brings us to our next topic
639
00:44:53,622 --> 00:44:57,102
how long does effective communication take well
640
00:44:57,102 --> 00:45:02,582
that's a very difficult topic well what do you mean in terms of that right so
641
00:45:02,582 --> 00:45:06,322
the first is how long in terms of years does it take to learn how to communicate
642
00:45:06,322 --> 00:45:11,922
with each other or how long does it take to resolve one particular conflict
643
00:45:11,922 --> 00:45:15,362
right or how long does it take to communicate an idea Yeah.
644
00:45:15,562 --> 00:45:22,802
And the reality is for all of those options, it takes as long as it takes. It takes until.
645
00:45:23,522 --> 00:45:26,882
And the reality is you just have to care enough. If you don't care enough,
646
00:45:26,922 --> 00:45:31,142
then you don't have to. You have to care. And because humans are humans.
647
00:45:32,209 --> 00:45:39,789
So often changing and growing and maturing and unfortunately developing conditions
648
00:45:39,789 --> 00:45:45,529
that affect their processing themselves, it really is a lifelong journey.
649
00:45:45,689 --> 00:45:51,049
Because the way that I communicate now is not the way that I communicated a
650
00:45:51,049 --> 00:45:54,809
year ago or five years ago or 10 years ago or 20 years ago.
651
00:45:55,089 --> 00:45:58,949
And it may not be, in fact, it quite likely won't be the way that I communicate
652
00:45:58,949 --> 00:46:02,929
in 10 years' time. And yes, what I said before, I meant both ways.
653
00:46:03,069 --> 00:46:08,409
So not just the neurotypical's job to communicate with and understand the neurodivergent,
654
00:46:08,469 --> 00:46:09,209
but the other way around.
655
00:46:09,609 --> 00:46:12,889
Again, it takes until it takes. And if you don't want to do it anymore,
656
00:46:13,029 --> 00:46:14,269
then that's a whole other discussion.
657
00:46:14,669 --> 00:46:20,189
And I mean, certain things will solidify eventually, because we started off
658
00:46:20,189 --> 00:46:25,969
basically constantly misunderstanding each other on a minute-by-minute basis.
659
00:46:25,969 --> 00:46:30,689
And at a certain do you remember the first time i told you you weren't hugging
660
00:46:30,689 --> 00:46:35,589
in kizuna enough yes and you said i bought you a coffee and i'm looking at you
661
00:46:35,589 --> 00:46:38,129
what more do you want yes exactly.
662
00:46:38,669 --> 00:46:43,729
Because that in my mind is is demonstrating love in the way that i thought was
663
00:46:43,729 --> 00:46:49,769
you know effective and it clearly wasn't affection is is is a very difficult
664
00:46:49,769 --> 00:46:51,809
topic to you're going to get so many do
665
00:46:51,849 --> 00:46:54,789
better do you know this from this yes but this
666
00:46:54,789 --> 00:46:58,709
he does better now this is the evolution of of myself and
667
00:46:58,709 --> 00:47:02,909
it really is a matter of learning
668
00:47:02,909 --> 00:47:08,969
both from again from both ends when i do a thing or when i say a thing she knows
669
00:47:08,969 --> 00:47:13,629
that i'm doing this or when she says a thing or acts in a certain way or looks
670
00:47:13,629 --> 00:47:19,149
a certain way or touches me i know that she's probably indicating this but we
671
00:47:19,149 --> 00:47:21,069
didn't know We were literally blind,
672
00:47:21,229 --> 00:47:23,369
deaf, and dumb. Mostly me.
673
00:47:24,129 --> 00:47:28,229
An additional layer of difficulty for Moshe is that I have been known to have,
674
00:47:28,469 --> 00:47:32,849
how do I say this without saying it, resting assertive person face.
675
00:47:33,489 --> 00:47:40,769
Yes. The problem with being not the best at learning social cues and reading
676
00:47:40,769 --> 00:47:44,189
faces, facial recognition is a common thing.
677
00:47:44,189 --> 00:47:48,189
My face is hard to read for neurotypicals, though, because when I'm concentrating
678
00:47:48,189 --> 00:47:53,429
or not doing anything in particular, I just look angry. It's not my fault. I'm not angry.
679
00:47:53,849 --> 00:47:58,429
And I also have facial things that people have called out.
680
00:47:58,769 --> 00:48:02,109
We talked about that in the last episode, the uncanny valley.
681
00:48:02,329 --> 00:48:04,929
Listen to it. Download it and listen to it. Exactly.
682
00:48:05,309 --> 00:48:09,329
So sometimes what I will do with Leah is I will cover her eyes or I'll cover
683
00:48:09,329 --> 00:48:12,809
her face. or I'll say to her, are you upset?
684
00:48:13,029 --> 00:48:16,629
And she'll like cover her mouth and be like, do my eyes look upset?
685
00:48:17,472 --> 00:48:23,252
And if you isolate certain aspects of a person's face, a lot of the time the picture becomes clear.
686
00:48:23,572 --> 00:48:28,432
Because if you're trying to read every line and wrinkle and expression in every
687
00:48:28,432 --> 00:48:30,852
aspect of a person's face, it's hard work.
688
00:48:31,412 --> 00:48:37,872
If you're not very astute at it or you have a deficiency in that, it's a lot of hard work.
689
00:48:37,952 --> 00:48:41,152
I mean, I have to understand what your eyes are saying, your face is saying,
690
00:48:41,252 --> 00:48:43,932
your mouth is saying, your ears are saying, your forehead is saying.
691
00:48:44,932 --> 00:48:47,812
Because everything is different. But if you're like, all right,
692
00:48:47,832 --> 00:48:51,792
just look at my eyes and tell me if you think that I'm upset right now.
693
00:48:51,912 --> 00:48:56,632
And then the picture goes, oh, I see. No, you're actually, you look like you're happy.
694
00:48:56,752 --> 00:48:58,972
Yeah, exactly. That's what is happening.
695
00:48:59,732 --> 00:49:03,812
And alternatively, if someone is smiling and you sort of look in their eyes
696
00:49:03,812 --> 00:49:07,512
and go, oh, they're not happy, their smile doesn't go all the way up to their
697
00:49:07,512 --> 00:49:10,352
eyes as is often the expression.
698
00:49:10,892 --> 00:49:15,392
I would suffer with that. Yeah. Speaking of eyes, we're going to talk about
699
00:49:15,392 --> 00:49:19,492
everybody's favorite topic now, eye contact. Yes.
700
00:49:20,032 --> 00:49:26,912
So eye contact is one of those things that as human beings has come to be very important.
701
00:49:27,072 --> 00:49:29,612
It denotes honesty. It denotes connection.
702
00:49:30,032 --> 00:49:33,632
There are so many love songs about it. I could have stood there lost in your
703
00:49:33,632 --> 00:49:35,972
eyes, blue eyes, hungry eyes.
704
00:49:36,252 --> 00:49:40,072
The eyes are very important in terms of communication between...
705
00:49:40,072 --> 00:49:43,932
Windows of a sun. Yeah, neurotypical people, at least.
706
00:49:44,552 --> 00:49:48,552
It's also a well-known thing that autistics have the diagnostic criteria.
707
00:49:49,012 --> 00:49:52,432
And it's one of those things that people will notice even if a person is highly
708
00:49:52,432 --> 00:49:56,712
masked, they will go, something is not quite right or something is a little off about that person.
709
00:49:57,312 --> 00:50:00,432
What does eye contact mean to an autistic?
710
00:50:01,232 --> 00:50:05,992
And I have a little bit of science to throw in there in a bit just for fun. You always do.
711
00:50:06,772 --> 00:50:14,212
So, that is a very common question that a lot of people will talk to autistics about.
712
00:50:14,832 --> 00:50:21,412
And they'll ask. One of the most common traits of someone with autism or a neurodivergent
713
00:50:21,412 --> 00:50:25,272
is that they have trouble looking people in the eyes. Why is that?
714
00:50:26,223 --> 00:50:30,563
And I can't speak for every autistic. In fact, the podcast kind of indicates that.
715
00:50:31,303 --> 00:50:38,183
But my answer to that question is because looking people in the eyes hurts me.
716
00:50:38,263 --> 00:50:42,143
And it's a difficult thing to explain.
717
00:50:42,283 --> 00:50:44,523
Why does it hurt you? How does it hurt you? What does it make you feel?
718
00:50:44,803 --> 00:50:48,343
It makes me feel overstimulated because eyes,
719
00:50:48,563 --> 00:50:54,983
I guess the best thing that I can say about is that eyes are so expressive in
720
00:50:54,983 --> 00:51:02,503
terms of emotions and feedback that it is a physical aversion,
721
00:51:03,403 --> 00:51:07,503
to look at the average person in the eyes.
722
00:51:07,583 --> 00:51:13,443
And actually, the story that I told last time during our episode about the uncanny
723
00:51:13,443 --> 00:51:20,123
valley is when I would work in an office and I would be speaking to a coworker
724
00:51:20,123 --> 00:51:21,683
or a manager or whatever,
725
00:51:21,903 --> 00:51:26,523
I would, depending on how authoritative they were, I would have difficulty looking
726
00:51:26,523 --> 00:51:29,883
at them in the eye because they're, you know, they're, I don't know,
727
00:51:29,963 --> 00:51:35,463
the expression is staring daggers and it really always feels like being stabbed.
728
00:51:35,603 --> 00:51:39,483
But if someone was standing over me and like giving me a talking to,
729
00:51:39,663 --> 00:51:44,323
I would generally look at the ground because the way that they were looking at me hurt me.
730
00:51:44,323 --> 00:51:48,563
Whereas if I was talking to a coworker or someone that I was friendly with,
731
00:51:48,723 --> 00:51:51,263
I'd be more likely to look them in the eyes, at least sometimes.
732
00:51:52,662 --> 00:51:59,062
And the HR complaint that I had against me was a woman said that I was scanning her body.
733
00:51:59,382 --> 00:52:02,022
But really, she was talking to me, and I was looking at her,
734
00:52:02,042 --> 00:52:04,422
finding it painful, looking away, and then trying to look at her again.
735
00:52:04,662 --> 00:52:07,302
And it really did look like my eyes were going up and down her body.
736
00:52:07,342 --> 00:52:10,102
But really, what they were doing is eye contact, can't do eye contact.
737
00:52:10,202 --> 00:52:11,402
Eye contact, can't do eye contact.
738
00:52:12,162 --> 00:52:16,822
And once that was identified, I was in the clear. But that was all due to an
739
00:52:16,822 --> 00:52:21,162
aversion to eye contact. Yes, and it's a very kind of sad and sweet because
740
00:52:21,162 --> 00:52:25,182
I love, love, love his eyes. I love them.
741
00:52:25,782 --> 00:52:31,122
But we met when we were seven, as I said, and I don't know that I knew the color
742
00:52:31,122 --> 00:52:32,722
of his eyes until we were like 15.
743
00:52:33,202 --> 00:52:37,742
Right, but that was as much due to the fact that I kept losing my glasses as
744
00:52:37,742 --> 00:52:39,522
I had difficulty making eye contact.
745
00:52:39,842 --> 00:52:43,582
No, but there was just one day when you started looking me directly in the eye.
746
00:52:43,582 --> 00:52:47,822
Yeah. And it didn't occur to me before that you weren't, but I certainly noticed
747
00:52:47,822 --> 00:52:52,422
after you were, because it was beautiful and it was sweet and it was a connection
748
00:52:52,422 --> 00:52:54,102
that we hadn't had before.
749
00:52:54,842 --> 00:52:58,722
That's not to say that all autistics struggle with it or that all autistics
750
00:52:58,722 --> 00:53:00,762
struggle with it to the extent that many do.
751
00:53:01,202 --> 00:53:07,202
And I would say that I fall somewhere in the middle in that I can sustain eye
752
00:53:07,202 --> 00:53:15,162
contact a lot of the time. I'm not always with Leah and other people that I'm very close to.
753
00:53:15,222 --> 00:53:18,022
It's generally a lot easier for me.
754
00:53:18,142 --> 00:53:24,962
But I know that there are some autistics that actually there's this woman that
755
00:53:24,962 --> 00:53:30,862
I follow occasionally on Facebook who talks about her experiences as an autistic
756
00:53:30,862 --> 00:53:32,822
mom of a neurotypical child.
757
00:53:34,122 --> 00:53:39,462
And all of her pictures on Facebook are of her like looking away or looking
758
00:53:39,462 --> 00:53:41,802
up or looking down to the extent.
759
00:53:41,882 --> 00:53:44,722
And she told me that people will often ask her if she's blind or.
760
00:53:45,569 --> 00:53:48,389
Because she's always like, her eyes are always moving around.
761
00:53:48,549 --> 00:53:52,589
Do you think it might just be easier for certain autistic people to say that they're blind?
762
00:53:52,869 --> 00:53:59,169
I think maybe yes, but the fact is, like, she's not blind. Her vision's fine.
763
00:53:59,629 --> 00:54:04,289
It's just when you're looking at something. And interestingly enough,
764
00:54:04,569 --> 00:54:07,349
this also applies to the camera.
765
00:54:07,869 --> 00:54:10,789
Because if you, a lot of the time, and again, this is not universal,
766
00:54:10,949 --> 00:54:15,049
but a lot of the time, I'm an autistic person who has to stare at a camera lens to take a picture.
767
00:54:15,089 --> 00:54:18,729
We'll often have difficulty looking at the camera lens and the camera.
768
00:54:18,809 --> 00:54:20,529
There's not an eye really.
769
00:54:20,989 --> 00:54:26,349
Right. So why, why do you think? I think it might actually be that feeling.
770
00:54:26,469 --> 00:54:30,649
It's looking at, I'm looking at it and it's looking back at me because even
771
00:54:30,649 --> 00:54:34,069
as a neurotypical, I sometimes get camera shire. I'm a nervous.
772
00:54:34,189 --> 00:54:38,329
I have to talk to myself, especially before I'm being video filmed, right?
773
00:54:38,389 --> 00:54:41,249
Like a picture snap is one thing, but I'll still do
774
00:54:41,249 --> 00:54:43,889
the whole thing where I sort of like prepare my eyes and I look up in the
775
00:54:43,889 --> 00:54:47,169
correct way so my face doesn't look weird and whatever but before
776
00:54:47,169 --> 00:54:50,529
I go on camera to really speak I feel vulnerable
777
00:54:50,529 --> 00:54:56,489
I feel like it's looking at me so I I can understand that I I I tend to be very
778
00:54:56,489 --> 00:55:02,869
charismatic so people often like to talk to me and I used to dread doing video
779
00:55:02,869 --> 00:55:08,089
interviews because I I had a lot of difficulty sustaining them because this
780
00:55:08,089 --> 00:55:09,089
is something that presumably
781
00:55:09,329 --> 00:55:13,329
a lot of people are going to watch because everyone wants to hear Moshe's opinion,
782
00:55:13,369 --> 00:55:18,269
but then you get me on camera and I essentially addressed the interview to the ceiling.
783
00:55:18,889 --> 00:55:21,969
And it's like, okay, maybe like what's wrong with it.
784
00:55:22,149 --> 00:55:27,189
When I did that interview in Victoria for the, was it a food blog?
785
00:55:27,329 --> 00:55:28,289
I don't remember exactly.
786
00:55:28,589 --> 00:55:33,229
It was the Shaw T idiot. I think I struggled and they made it a lot easier because
787
00:55:33,229 --> 00:55:35,529
they did it in the interview format. So they put.
788
00:55:36,531 --> 00:55:39,251
The camera sort of to the side and then they made me look
789
00:55:39,251 --> 00:55:42,411
at the guy who was speaking to me so i wasn't looking directly to
790
00:55:42,411 --> 00:55:45,391
the camera it is it is an intimidating thing and i can't understand
791
00:55:45,391 --> 00:55:48,031
why because there's no actual person in the camera at the
792
00:55:48,031 --> 00:55:51,051
time it just feels like the camera itself is moving it does
793
00:55:51,051 --> 00:55:55,031
and some some qualities that because a lot of people will will say especially
794
00:55:55,031 --> 00:55:59,691
if they have children that uh that don't make eye contact because like leah
795
00:55:59,691 --> 00:56:04,271
said that there's this this really inconvenient and I would say unfair perception
796
00:56:04,271 --> 00:56:08,291
that a person who isn't looking you in the eyes is being dishonest, is being shifty.
797
00:56:08,711 --> 00:56:15,491
And I worked for a company in New Brunswick in Canada.
798
00:56:15,931 --> 00:56:20,331
And my manager was always on my case because the lights were really bright.
799
00:56:20,391 --> 00:56:23,231
So I had to wear sunglasses. And he said, no, you can't wear sunglasses at work
800
00:56:23,231 --> 00:56:25,311
because people can't see your face properly.
801
00:56:25,471 --> 00:56:30,211
And it doesn't look honest. And I said, okay, well, you know, do it.
802
00:56:30,591 --> 00:56:35,131
Do I have to, like, people keep saying that you're not looking at them when
803
00:56:35,131 --> 00:56:36,991
they're talking to you because you're not paying attention.
804
00:56:37,531 --> 00:56:42,471
It's a tough subject, honestly. So, what, some strategies.
805
00:56:43,331 --> 00:56:46,371
Before strategies, let me just quickly go into the science of it.
806
00:56:46,391 --> 00:56:48,711
Absolutely. Because it's really interesting. Take it away. Thank you.
807
00:56:49,151 --> 00:56:54,191
So, you can Google these studies yourself. But there have been a couple of recent studies.
808
00:56:54,351 --> 00:57:00,411
I did. where they sat a neurotypical person across from an autistic person and
809
00:57:00,411 --> 00:57:04,391
they hooked them up to EEG machines and they made them look each other in the
810
00:57:04,391 --> 00:57:05,751
eye for as long as they could stand.
811
00:57:06,231 --> 00:57:11,571
And what they noticed was that when autistics would look at people in the eye.
812
00:57:12,531 --> 00:57:18,231
They would have lower than normal activity in their dorsal parietal cortex.
813
00:57:18,371 --> 00:57:19,591
So that's a part of the brain.
814
00:57:19,751 --> 00:57:22,051
Not sure what it's responsible for. I'd have to look that up.
815
00:57:22,051 --> 00:57:26,071
I was going to ask you, what's that responsible for? I don't remember.
816
00:57:26,331 --> 00:57:30,231
I would have to look that up. We can possibly put it up on the website. Maybe.
817
00:57:30,771 --> 00:57:34,351
And it shows less activity in people with ASD.
818
00:57:34,531 --> 00:57:39,871
And the more severe their diagnosis, the lower activity is.
819
00:57:40,631 --> 00:57:45,051
So you would think, because autistics often describe everything being too bright,
820
00:57:45,191 --> 00:57:49,091
too much, too whatever, that it would be more activity, but it's less.
821
00:57:49,411 --> 00:57:55,251
And that interests me on top of that because people with ADHD used to be given sedatives.
822
00:57:55,271 --> 00:57:59,291
And as we know, that's the opposite of what you're supposed to do for ADHD because
823
00:57:59,291 --> 00:58:03,031
their up behavior, their hyper behavior isn't because their brain is doing too
824
00:58:03,031 --> 00:58:05,071
much. It's because their brain is doing too little.
825
00:58:05,271 --> 00:58:10,831
So did you catch, I see Michelle looking it up. What is the dorsal parietal
826
00:58:10,831 --> 00:58:12,751
cortex responsible for?
827
00:58:12,931 --> 00:58:23,331
So, according to one paper, the dorsal parietal cortex is responsible for top-down orienting,
828
00:58:23,331 --> 00:58:30,271
whereas the ventral parietal cortex is responsible for bottom-up orienting. So, orientation.
829
00:58:30,791 --> 00:58:35,691
So, essentially, it's like… So, vestibular orientation? Yeah,
830
00:58:35,751 --> 00:58:40,571
so it's essentially like, it controls something to do with knowing,
831
00:58:40,771 --> 00:58:44,891
you know, your field of vision.
832
00:58:44,971 --> 00:58:48,491
It has to do with the field of vision that goes from the top to the bottom.
833
00:58:48,951 --> 00:58:52,031
Interesting. I don't know what that means. I don't know what...
834
00:58:52,031 --> 00:58:56,031
Well, I mean, I know that there are more senses than we talk about,
835
00:58:56,131 --> 00:59:00,071
and one of them is the vestibular sense, which orientates yourself in space,
836
00:59:00,251 --> 00:59:03,551
and autistics often score poorly in that area.
837
00:59:03,891 --> 00:59:07,131
Right. Again, do your own research or we can look into it more for you.
838
00:59:07,151 --> 00:59:09,131
Maybe do a little write-up on our website.
839
00:59:09,551 --> 00:59:11,211
Maybe it could be a YouTube video or something.
840
00:59:11,731 --> 00:59:15,571
So just a quick note about that, just because I found it kind of interesting.
841
00:59:15,771 --> 00:59:18,551
One of my talents is speed reading. So I can kind of look at a paragraph and
842
00:59:18,551 --> 00:59:20,151
go zip. It is. Oh, there's something.
843
00:59:20,871 --> 00:59:25,431
So what is top-down orienting me? And the example they give is go to the produce
844
00:59:25,431 --> 00:59:26,631
aisle of your local supermarket.
845
00:59:26,631 --> 00:59:34,571
Market, you will notice that a lot of the higher priority items are higher and
846
00:59:34,571 --> 00:59:41,591
the less priority ones are lower because your natural state is to look from
847
00:59:41,591 --> 00:59:44,911
the top to the bottom rather than from the bottom to the top.
848
00:59:45,051 --> 00:59:53,411
So things that are at the top are more likely to catch your attention than things at the bottom.
849
00:59:54,284 --> 01:00:02,364
So, but, but they, but they determined that interruptions often happen from the bottom to the top.
850
01:00:02,484 --> 01:00:08,984
For example, if you, if you're looking at something, your more,
851
01:00:09,044 --> 01:00:12,664
your natural state is to look from the top to the bottom.
852
01:00:12,764 --> 01:00:18,384
But when you're surprised or interrupted, you actually look from the bottom up.
853
01:00:18,384 --> 01:00:21,164
Up they discovered a phenomenon that if you
854
01:00:21,164 --> 01:00:24,044
if you annoy someone that they're like reading a
855
01:00:24,044 --> 01:00:26,904
book and you like poke them they'll actually
856
01:00:26,904 --> 01:00:30,124
go like this rather than you know because your
857
01:00:30,124 --> 01:00:34,324
your attention comes from the bottom up but your focus comes from the top down
858
01:00:34,324 --> 01:00:40,604
so they suspect that it has something to do with attention with the ability
859
01:00:40,604 --> 01:00:45,124
to focus and and pay attention to certain things i don't know make of that way
860
01:00:45,124 --> 01:00:49,404
you will if you have any opinions or feelings maybe it is exactly the situation you discussed.
861
01:00:49,984 --> 01:00:53,224
Somebody's body is essentially just a bunch of body parts, but when you get
862
01:00:53,224 --> 01:00:56,984
to the eyes, everybody must admit, you're typical or not, that the eyes are
863
01:00:56,984 --> 01:00:58,044
a different thing. Absolutely.
864
01:00:58,344 --> 01:01:03,104
So it might just be the interruption. It's jarring. They're unlike other parts of the body.
865
01:01:03,204 --> 01:01:06,044
Anyway, write to us, let us know what you think about this.
866
01:01:06,144 --> 01:01:09,204
And if you want more of it, we'll figure it out. It seems like we tapped into
867
01:01:09,204 --> 01:01:12,064
a more complicated topic than we had initially thought.
868
01:01:12,764 --> 01:01:17,044
So all of this is to say, in conclusion, I want to ask, should we insist on
869
01:01:17,044 --> 01:01:21,744
eye contact, or should the world just be me to be a bit more accommodating of that situation?
870
01:01:22,164 --> 01:01:28,904
I think that applying values to bodily function.
871
01:01:29,816 --> 01:01:35,156
Is unfair. Because everyone is different. And saying that somebody who doesn't
872
01:01:35,156 --> 01:01:41,236
make eye contact is dishonest is like saying that somebody who has bad posture is lazy.
873
01:01:41,516 --> 01:01:45,916
Any interrogation investigator will tell you, somebody who is making up a lie
874
01:01:45,916 --> 01:01:47,516
will actually look up and to the left.
875
01:01:47,896 --> 01:01:51,276
So if a person is not looking up and to the left, they're likely not lying.
876
01:01:51,396 --> 01:01:54,436
Fair enough. And I've heard that as well.
877
01:01:54,716 --> 01:01:58,716
I think that eye contact is not necessarily the But be all and end all,
878
01:01:58,756 --> 01:02:03,256
there's a lot of different ways, as you said, up and to the left to denote that someone's dishonest.
879
01:02:04,196 --> 01:02:10,536
And as an interesting conclusion to that, if I'm really paying attention to
880
01:02:10,536 --> 01:02:14,236
something, with someone talking, I'll actually often close my eyes.
881
01:02:14,736 --> 01:02:19,976
And that's doubly purpose, because I actually find that reducing the visual
882
01:02:19,976 --> 01:02:24,536
stimulation causes me to pay more attention. And I've seen people be multiple
883
01:02:24,536 --> 01:02:26,896
ways on understanding, for sure.
884
01:02:27,356 --> 01:02:31,256
But also some people are like, what is wrong with you? And I've seen it happen.
885
01:02:31,256 --> 01:02:34,156
Happen people will say oh am i boring you oh
886
01:02:34,156 --> 01:02:37,576
you're falling asleep you're not paying any attention and
887
01:02:37,576 --> 01:02:40,556
actually i had a counselor a therapist once
888
01:02:40,556 --> 01:02:44,256
who i was having difficulty at school and
889
01:02:44,256 --> 01:02:49,936
the therapist or whatever came to our house and i i was sitting there listening
890
01:02:49,936 --> 01:02:54,896
to what he was saying and my eyes were closed and my parent was like well look
891
01:02:54,896 --> 01:02:57,416
look he's not even paying attention doesn't even care about what you're saying
892
01:02:57,416 --> 01:03:01,916
and it was the therapist that but looked at me and said, no, actually,
893
01:03:02,096 --> 01:03:04,136
he's paying extra attention.
894
01:03:04,316 --> 01:03:09,876
He's really listening because he's closed off his visual input in order to take
895
01:03:09,876 --> 01:03:12,096
in better what I'm trying to express.
896
01:03:12,836 --> 01:03:16,776
So that is an interesting little anecdote to end on.
897
01:03:17,016 --> 01:03:20,416
So what I'm taking at your opinion is we shouldn't force our contact on.
898
01:03:20,596 --> 01:03:23,556
Yes. That is my opinion as well. Let us know what your opinion is.
899
01:03:23,816 --> 01:03:24,736
Thank you for listening.
900
01:03:25,376 --> 01:03:28,236
Well, that's our show for today. now you know one
901
01:03:28,236 --> 01:03:34,776
autistic just a little bit better so something you may not know about some autistics
902
01:03:34,776 --> 01:03:42,056
is that we often struggle with ending social interactions so Leah all right
903
01:03:42,056 --> 01:03:47,936
Moshe i'll take care of it thank you for listening to now you know one autistic see you next week.
904
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:55,807
Music.