Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
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Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic.
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Leah: I'm Leah, and I'm boring.
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Moshe: Welcome to now you know one autistic.
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Leah: A podcast about neurodiversity in
couples, marriage meltdowns, and making it all
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work.
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Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast
reflect the experience of one couple and one
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autistic.
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Leah: Nothing that you hear in this podcast
should be taken as a medical opinion.
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And unless otherwise stated, no one is an
accredited specialist in any of the many
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fields that comprise the autism spectrum.
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Moshe: But as someone who is on the autism
spectrum, I feel that my experiences will be
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very valuable to many of you, whether you're
on the spectrum, a support person like Leah,
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or just a curious bystander.
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Leah: If you think that you or someone you
care about may be autistic, consult your
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family doctor.
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Hi, Moshe.
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Moshe: Hi, Leah.
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Leah: How are you today?
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Moshe: Very well.
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How are you?
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Leah: I'm all right.
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So we're gonna take a little bit of a break
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from communication.
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I mean, we are communicating, right?
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Because we're talking.
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Moshe: We're currently communicating, right?
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Leah: But we're gonna do a different topic
today just so that everybody doesn't get tired
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of the same topic over and over again.
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Moshe: Sounds good.
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Leah: It might be a little bit of a
controversial topic.
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It might be offensive to some viewers, so just
listen with caution.
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And if you have younger people who may not
understand, possibly listen with them so that
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you can explain some of the more difficult
concepts in this episode.
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So what are we discussing today?
Moja?
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Moshe: So today we are titling this episode,
at least at this moment, as the uncanny valley
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of autism.
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Leah: Can you explain to everyone what that.
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Moshe: Means, the uncanny valley of autism?
Well, the uncanny valley refers to the theory
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that when somebody goes from trying to portray
a human versus someone who is decidedly
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unhuman, there is a increase in comfort level
that gradually increases from non human to
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human until a point right before fully human,
where there's a very significant dip.
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And that dip is referred to in the theory as
the uncanny valley.
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Leah: Right.
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So, as you can see, maybe with that brief
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explanation, you can understand why we would
think that some people would find this
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controversial.
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We're in no way referring to people on the
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spectrum or people off the spectrum as non
humans.
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It really is just the theory and the
definition.
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The reason why non human is.
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Is used in the definition is because it was
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actually coined by people who work in
robotics.
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They were trying to make robots people like,
and they noticed that as their robots became
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more and more human, people in general would
like them very much until they became too
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human, but not quite white.
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And that would cause feelings of unease, let's
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say.
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Moshe: Correct.
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Leah: So the definition, I mean, that I wrote
down.
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So let's just go with that.
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What is the uncanny valley theory in general?
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So it says that people find human, like robots
and or animations more appealing the more
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human they appear.
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Until they don't.
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So when I say animations, they also sort of
use this theory in animated movies.
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Animated studios use it.
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They use it a lot in video games.
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If the non human entity, let's say, is too
close but not quite human, they tend to cause
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a feeling of unease and creepiness.
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So when I was doing my research, one really
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cool story that I found was, it's a really
popular movie, Shrek.
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I mean, it's a huge hit.
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Apparently, when they first screened it for
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small children, a lot of them ended up frying
or panicking or wanting to leave, asking for
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their mom, because apparently Fiona looked too
human.
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So they actually had to go back to the drawing
board and make it look more like a cartoon.
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And now it's the hit that we lost.
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Moshe: Exactly, because the.
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I don't know.
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Elea can probably explain it a little bit
better.
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But essentially, the way it works in theory is
that the things that someone find comforting
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or positive emotion invoking about things that
resemble humans end up creating a sense of
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unease when the subject, or the object,
rather, is human looking.
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But there's just something slightly, or maybe
not so slightly off about it.
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Like, for example, the reason that people find
zombies to be creepy is because they're
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basically human.
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But obviously, there's something decidedly
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unhuman about them.
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It's the same reason that some people are
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afraid of dolls, or some people are afraid of
clowns, or some people are afraid.
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I use the word afraid, but some people are
creeped out, I should say, by things that are
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human looking, but there's just something
about them that makes them feel, like,
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uncomfortable.
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Right?
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Leah: Yeah. So I looked at a lot of charts and
I looked at a lot of studies, and the theory
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goes that people will like non human objects
that resemble humans up until a point when
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they switch.
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There's this line where they switch to, okay,
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well, this is.
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Oh, look, it's a robot trying to be human.
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How cute is that?
But there's a point where they can become so
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lifelike that they switch to, oh, that is the
human failing at being human.
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That's creepy.
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And that is the valley that you're talking
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about.
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So if you look up a graphic about uncanny
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valley, literally see, like, a dip in the
graph.
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And that's considered the uncanny valley.
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It's a small portion of space where it goes
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from, wow, that's a robot trying to be cute
to, oh, that's a human being miserably
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athenian.
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Moshe: Correct.
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Leah: So how does this also tie into our
topic?
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I think that was sort of loosely, vaguely,
yeah.
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Moshe: We're talking a lot about the concept
of Uncanny Valley, and I'm sure you could look
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up podcasts that deal specifically with the
uncanny valley in the sense of what it is and
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why it is and what might have caused it or
what have you.
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But what we're actually talking about, and
again, it's something of a controversial
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topic, which is why we waited until the third
episode to bring it up, is how.
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And again, I'm autistic, so I'm maybe a little
bit in a better position to talk about it, or
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at least introduce it.
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How autistic people or neurodivergent people
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can invoke in non autistics, the uncanny
valley effect.
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And just to be fair, how non neurodivergence
can invoke the same reaction, or if they even
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invoke the same reaction in an autistic.
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And just to tie it all together, why uncanny
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valley?
The theory of uncanny Valley is, or maybe you
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can obviously give your own opinion, but our
hypothesis is that the uncanny valley theory
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actually is different or even somewhat absent
in an autistic.
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And we'll definitely talk about that as well.
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Leah: Yeah. So over and over again, you'll
hear, especially autistic males, for some
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reason, be described as creepy.
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So people will do, you know, they'll have
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what's called a thin slice judgment or a snap
judgment, where they will look at a person
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taking the visual, very base information and
just go, ooh, he's creepy.
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Now, why do you say, or what do you think the
reason behind that is?
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Moshe: Well, as someone who is on the
spectrum, as the intro has mentioned, is that
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the theory is that an autistic person,
particularly an autistic person that is
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masking, is acting a certain way.
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But the mask is not perfect because it's not
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able to be, because it's, you know, a person
is either autistic or they're not.
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And we're not even going to get into the
theory that there's autistics out there who
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are just so good at masking and are able to
maintain it consistently that they're
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essentially not autistic at all.
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Leah: Yes, but you don't have to be like me or
a trained professional to see it.
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Often trained professionals miss it because
you would be surprised how many times I get
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asked, you know, Moshe, who's such a great
guy, but is there something wrong with him?
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It'll take people, like, three months of
really close contact with you to even go
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there.
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Moshe: And that's exactly it.
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And this is why it's being.
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It's coming up.
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It would be a very different podcast episode
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if it were two neurotypicals sitting together
and going, do you think autistic people are
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creepy?
But this is actually not only a theory that we
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researched and read about and found examples
of.
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This is my lived experience.
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This is my lived experience from the time I
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was very young until the present, even where
people have met me at various stages in my
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life, in various stages of my autism, and I
should really say in various stages, my
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masking my autism.
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And they would be close to me, and they would,
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you know, sometimes they would go, I don't
know, there's something.
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There's something going on there.
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Or I would enter a new work environment, and I
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would get called in to human resources offices
because people would say, you know, I don't
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actually know what this is about, but some
people have been mentioning that you've made
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them feel very uncomfortable.
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Do you know what that might be caused by?
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And of course, I was surprised because I had
no idea, number one, that I was.
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And number two, why I would.
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And number three, I couldn't even imagine what
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it was about what I was doing that made them
feel uncomfortable.
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Leah: It's unfortunate that the answer to it
is you weren't actually doing anything.
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They were basically seeing your micro
expressions and the way that you look like
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them, but you're acting quite like them.
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And they had a snap response.
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Moshe: Yes. And some people were very subtle
about it, and they just avoided me entirely.
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And some people were very non subtle about it.
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In a previous job that I had, I would.
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I was sitting.
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We were sitting a bunch of cubicles, and I was
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sitting across the cubicle, separated by a.
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By, like a glass or a poly something.
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You know, what's the word I'm looking for?
Pain.
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We'll say, like a pain of transparent, clear
substance.
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Probably glass, maybe not, doesn't matter for
the points of this.
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And there was this other female co worker that
sat on the other side of it, and I would take
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calls, as I always do, and I would just sit
there, and I would be emoting and carrying on.
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And eventually I noticed that she would take
pieces of paper over the glass facing me.
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And I was who I am, and I was like, I'm sorry,
what?
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Why.
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Why are you.
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Why are you doing that?
And she would say, you.
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You really do.
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I don't know that.
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You know, but when you're.
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When you're on the phone or when you're
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working, sometimes you kind of look over at me
and you have this look on your face, and it
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makes me very uncomfortable.
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So I just.
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I cannot concentrate on what I'm doing and
look at you.
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And.
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I'm sorry.
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I don't know if it's intentional.
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I don't know if this is something that you.
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That you know that you're doing, but I need to
not look at you while I'm working.
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Leah: Right.
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So that is actually very interesting because
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that face thing that you're describing is
essentially unmasking.
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So it's when you're distracted by something
else or tired or upset, and you forget to put
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touching in your eyebrows and turn up the
corners of your mouth and, you know, do human
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check, like, is my face doing all the things?
And that happens a lot, and it unfairly,
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maybe, or maybe not.
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Creeps some people out.
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Moshe: Yeah. And it's just.
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It's kind of something that I've had to live
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with.
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But even before I had my diagnosis, I maybe
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unconsciously came up with ways around it.
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And the way that I chose, the way that was
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most convenient for me, is I made myself
harmless or as harmless as I possibly could.
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So I would walk around with my eyes down.
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I would sort of curl up in, like, a very
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shoulders inverted, like, very, very non
threatening position.
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Because what I thought, and I don't even know
to this day if it was a valid assumption or
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not, was I thought people were actually afraid
of me.
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Leah: Right?
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Moshe: So I looked, I said, okay, well, if
they're afraid of me, then I have to make
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myself as non threatening as possible.
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And so eventually, I got the nickname of Sully
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from Monsters, Inc. Where they said, you're a
monster, but you're a very cuddly, warm,
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approachable monster.
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Leah: Again, if you see him, he does kind of
look like Sully.
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He's a tall guy, you know, big arms, big
shoulders, big beer.
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I see white people went there.
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Moshe: Yes. So I was an approachable person,
and I made myself very, very non threatening.
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But interestingly enough, this worked quite
well on the.
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I mean, again, I didn't do, like, a poll of
the office, but it worked very well on a lot
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of the people that I worked with.
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But I noticed that there were a lot of
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employees there that were actually very
different, and they never had a problem with
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me.
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They were very, they approached me, they
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talked to me.
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They found me to be very nice and sweet and
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friendly.
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And one of them happened to have been my
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supervisor.
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And I brought up to her one day about the fact
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that this was happening.
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And she says, I have no idea what's going on.
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I've never noticed anything like, I don't
like, I sit, like, pretty close to you, and I
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haven't noticed that you have a look on your
face so that there's anything that would cause
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them to do that.
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Maybe they're moving to a different department
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anyway, so you should probably not even worry
about it.
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But if it's up to me, I'm telling you, there's
nothing that you're doing that seems to be,
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you know, causing.
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Leah: That kind of reaction that must have
been so unhappy and so uncomfortable for you.
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And another pitfall, people not having a
diagnosis each other much, much older.
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Moshe: Right.
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Leah: I think I put my toe or our toe into a
topic that we're, we sort of kissed and we're
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going to have to reveal eventually is, uh, we,
unfortunately for us, haven't always been
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together that, haven't always been a couple.
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And that coping mechanism that Moshe describes
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led me to find a much different man than I had
left many years before.
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And actually, this thing that he said works
for everybody else absolutely did not work for
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me, because he used to be tall and big and
brazen and arrogant, and maybe a lot of people
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didn't like that, but I did.
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And I said, who are you?
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If you want to talk about the world affecting
somebody, if you want to talk about the world
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beating somebody down, especially for
something that's not even your fault, it was a
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very, very sad, unfortunate thing.
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Moshe: Yeah. And the problem that many
autistics face.
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And again, I'm just one autistic, so I can't
really comment on the autistic community at
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large.
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But the problem that I would venture that a
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lot of autistics and the ones that I've met
have faced is the different masks that they
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end up having to wear.
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And they wear a mask for work, and they wear a
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mask for their friends, and they wear a mask
if they have a relationship for their partner,
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and they wear a mask that they just kind of
put on when they, when they go out, because
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they're going to be around people and they're
like, well, I have to person now.
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I have to go to the store and be out in
public, and it's going to be bright and it's
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going to be loud, and it's going to be a lot
of different sensations.
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And if I want to fit in, then I have to wear a
mask.
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And if you're the kind of person that I was
undiagnosed, didn't even know that I was
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autistic, just knew that people were creeped
out by me, then it was an unconscious effort.
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It's not like someone told me, okay, you have
to look a certain way and act a certain way
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when you're in public.
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Autistics often do it without even intending
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to do it.
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And they, it's called masking.
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It's a concept that is very familiar to the
neurodivergent community.
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But essentially, in very quick summary, it's
the ability to put on a certain appearance or
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demeanor or mannerism, copy people.
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Leah: That they find neurotypical so that they
can be more like them and be accepted
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socially.
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Moshe: And actually, it's something that a lot
of the, we'll call them theories of, quote
301
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unquote, handling an autistic is to teach them
to mask, because VA is.
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Leah: All teachings and beauty.
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Moshe: Right.
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And the thing that sort of ties into the
305
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beginning of this episode is that Leah, and in
particular myself, are not saying that
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autistics are creepy.
307
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And we're not talking about how people with
308
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autism create this feeling that other people
are creeped out by them.
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What we're saying is that in an effort to
attempt to mask and behave the way we are
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taught or told or led to believe that we're
supposed to act, we end up wearing someone
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else's face.
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Leah: And you essentially fall into that
family.
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Moshe: We put ourselves in it.
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Leah: No falls on your own.
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And other people are not understanding.
316
00:19:29.638 --> 00:19:33.150
So let's talk about actually an interesting
concept.
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This seems to be the more functional you are,
the lower support needs you have.
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I'm doing air quotes, by the way.
319
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If you can't cure in that noise, the more the
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uncanny valet seems to become a problem
because the more capable of masking you.
321
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So that was also within our research.
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And the next step to that is it's even harder
323
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for women on the spectrum.
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And it is the hardest for attractive.
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Moshe: Women on the spectrum based on the
studies.
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Leah: Yeah. Why do you think that might be?
327
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Moshe: Well, it really does kind of go back to
a number of things that I just said, which is
328
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when, when you are raised the way that I am
and the way I'm sure a lot of other autistics
329
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are raised.
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And I just want to make mention of the fact
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that there's a lot of parents out there who
were unfamiliar with autism up until the
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moment that their child was diagnosed.
333
00:20:32.334 --> 00:20:35.670
And they often have the very best of
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intentions and think that they're doing the
best that they can to help their child.
335
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And why would you ever have this person that
you absolutely adore and love and cherish and
336
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want the best for and not try to do what you
feel is what they need in order to function?
337
00:20:53.628 --> 00:21:00.660
Because nobody wants to slap a label on their
child's forehead and say, well, this kid is
338
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nonfunctional, or this kid is semi functional.
339
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This kid is differently abled or whatever, you
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know, buzzword you want to use.
341
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And subsequently, you're basically teaching
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your child to, in effect, go out in public
wearing a clown mask because.
343
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Because they're told that they need to wear
this clown mask.
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And I use clown mask because I know that it's
creeped out by clowns, but they're basically
345
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telling their kid, you can't go out with that
face.
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You have to wear this clown mask so people
will recognize that you are a part of them,
347
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and people will look at them and go, who the
heck is this?
348
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And then the kid will be like, I don't
understand why people are all creeped out by
349
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me.
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I'm putting on the mask that you wanted me to
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wear.
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But conversely, if you have a parent who
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either is so unfamiliar with autism that
they're like, I don't know, just do whatever,
354
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or they are familiar enough with it that
they're like, you know what?
355
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No, my kid is autistic.
356
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He stood.
357
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He, he has different mannerisms.
358
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He has a weird walk.
359
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He has a weird way of doing things.
360
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He's always moving and twiddling his fingers
361
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and twirling his hair and blinking and
snorting and doing all manner of things.
362
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And if you don't like it, well, too bad,
because that's who he is.
363
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Leah: That's the kind of parent are you?
364
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Moshe: Yes. Those are the kids that are
actually, that don't get that reaction because
365
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if you're out in, in public, then people are
seeing you, and sometimes you're just acting a
366
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certain way, or sometimes you're overly sound
sensitive, so you have your muffs on, or
367
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sometimes you're overly visually sensitive,
and then you have dark glasses on, or
368
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sometimes you have a parent who's walking
around with their child on a harness.
369
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Leah: Got it.
370
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Moshe: And there's different terms that people
use, which even I am still like.
371
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Imagine later in life, learning in my forties
that I'm autistic and now learning the way
372
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autistic, you know, parents or people are
supposed to are supposed to be.
373
00:23:02.832 --> 00:23:07.280
It's like reading an instruction manual about
yourself and going, oh, that's how I'm
374
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supposed to act.
375
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But if you're, if you're out in public, if
376
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you're at the coffee shop or you're out for a
walk or you're at the park and you're, you're
377
00:23:15.976 --> 00:23:20.706
a kid, you have, you have an eight year old,
and you have two eight year olds.
378
00:23:20.730 --> 00:23:21.946
Let's say you're a parent.
379
00:23:22.050 --> 00:23:24.338
Your friend is also a parent, and both of you
380
00:23:24.346 --> 00:23:29.466
have an eight year old boy, and both boys are
at the park playing, and one boy is just
381
00:23:29.610 --> 00:23:31.442
living his life, doing his best.
382
00:23:31.578 --> 00:23:34.466
And occasionally he'll do stuff and then just
383
00:23:34.530 --> 00:23:39.374
act a certain way, and then the other boy will
go, I don't want to be his friend who's weird.
384
00:23:39.794 --> 00:23:45.296
But then you have this other boy who's wearing
earmuffs, and he's, like, shaking his hands
385
00:23:45.320 --> 00:23:48.632
and stuff and really excited, and it's like,
oh, my gosh, he's so cute.
386
00:23:48.728 --> 00:23:49.272
Leah: Exactly.
387
00:23:49.328 --> 00:23:51.568
Moshe: So doesn't that seem contradictory to
you?
388
00:23:51.616 --> 00:23:52.976
Leah: It does, but it's a true thing.
389
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:54.488
And I'll tell you exactly why.
390
00:23:54.616 --> 00:23:55.288
Avram.
391
00:23:55.376 --> 00:23:58.696
By a neurotypical standards, Avram is so
392
00:23:58.840 --> 00:23:59.712
weird.
393
00:23:59.888 --> 00:24:00.792
Let's be honest.
394
00:24:00.848 --> 00:24:02.208
He's a weird little dude.
395
00:24:02.296 --> 00:24:02.704
Moshe: Yes.
396
00:24:02.784 --> 00:24:04.816
Leah: But he's so popular.
397
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:06.088
People love him.
398
00:24:06.136 --> 00:24:11.716
He's only ever described as adorable, cute,
swooshy, so smart, so talented.
399
00:24:11.820 --> 00:24:12.844
Let's be his friend.
400
00:24:12.924 --> 00:24:13.904
So cool.
401
00:24:14.284 --> 00:24:18.948
Because he's not expected to not be who he is.
402
00:24:19.076 --> 00:24:23.356
Moshe: Right?
And that is exactly the problem.
403
00:24:23.540 --> 00:24:27.984
And this is the second soapbox of the series
that it only took, you know, three episodes.
404
00:24:28.604 --> 00:24:30.304
I have a real problem.
405
00:24:30.884 --> 00:24:33.748
And again, this is not just my own opinion.
406
00:24:33.876 --> 00:24:36.104
This is based on my lived experience.
407
00:24:36.604 --> 00:24:38.184
I have a real problem.
408
00:24:38.484 --> 00:24:42.716
And I struggled, and I'll be the first one to
say that I struggled with it, because you'd
409
00:24:42.740 --> 00:24:46.940
think that if you're autistic, suddenly you
understand all autistics, and you don't.
410
00:24:47.132 --> 00:24:48.156
You don't understand it.
411
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:49.140
Like, we're one autistic.
412
00:24:49.172 --> 00:24:51.028
And if you know one autistic, you know one
autistic.
413
00:24:51.076 --> 00:24:52.612
That's the name of the podcast now.
414
00:24:52.628 --> 00:24:53.460
You know one autistic.
415
00:24:53.492 --> 00:24:54.428
Thank you for listening.
416
00:24:54.556 --> 00:24:55.224
But.
417
00:24:55.924 --> 00:24:56.900
But you.
418
00:24:56.972 --> 00:24:58.860
I struggled with it, and I came to a
419
00:24:58.892 --> 00:25:07.028
conclusion, unfortunately, later than I should
have, which is, I am very uncomfortable with
420
00:25:07.076 --> 00:25:11.468
anything that tries to teach someone with
autism to stop acting like they have autism.
421
00:25:11.556 --> 00:25:13.220
Leah: Right?
Because they do.
422
00:25:13.252 --> 00:25:14.020
So why should.
423
00:25:14.132 --> 00:25:20.892
Moshe: Because why would you tell anyone,
especially a child, that they have to act in a
424
00:25:20.908 --> 00:25:25.516
way, that's not who they actually are.
425
00:25:25.580 --> 00:25:27.204
Leah: I do want to put a disclaimer here.
426
00:25:27.284 --> 00:25:29.876
Some children actually do need therapy in
427
00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:32.520
order to be able to engage with the world at
all.
428
00:25:32.612 --> 00:25:32.936
Moshe: Right?
429
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.464
Leah: So some of them are very enclosed in
that you want to use another term, own world.
430
00:25:37.624 --> 00:25:39.416
Some of them don't have speech.
431
00:25:39.560 --> 00:25:41.480
And if they want to engage with the world,
432
00:25:41.512 --> 00:25:42.456
they do need therapy.
433
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.096
And a lot of them are very grateful that
434
00:25:44.120 --> 00:25:46.032
they've had that therapy and can engage.
435
00:25:46.168 --> 00:25:51.752
Moshe: Right. And I'll add to that, that when
I talk about, you know, raising your child
436
00:25:51.808 --> 00:25:58.596
like they're not autistic, I'm not talking
about dealing with profound issues that will
437
00:25:58.620 --> 00:26:01.028
actually limit their ability to function at
all.
438
00:26:01.156 --> 00:26:07.824
I'm talking about, and here's another soapbox
topic, the high functioning autistic, which
439
00:26:09.124 --> 00:26:10.492
skims a little bit.
440
00:26:10.548 --> 00:26:12.588
And we're trying to get him to stop doing
441
00:26:12.636 --> 00:26:20.380
that, and he's really hung up on one thing,
and you got to get them to learn how to do
442
00:26:20.412 --> 00:26:20.988
this.
443
00:26:21.156 --> 00:26:24.820
It's the things that allow them to mask
444
00:26:24.972 --> 00:26:25.644
better.
445
00:26:25.804 --> 00:26:26.476
But then you.
446
00:26:26.540 --> 00:26:27.460
You have autistics.
447
00:26:27.492 --> 00:26:28.524
And because autism is.
448
00:26:28.564 --> 00:26:32.940
Is a global delay, you have autistics that
are.
449
00:26:33.132 --> 00:26:36.420
I don't, again, not going to use the word, but
are differently.
450
00:26:36.532 --> 00:26:36.900
That are.
451
00:26:36.932 --> 00:26:38.984
That are definitely communicative.
452
00:26:39.404 --> 00:26:44.212
And a lot of these parents are referred to
speech therapists, which isn't a bad thing,
453
00:26:44.348 --> 00:26:45.468
because if a child is.
454
00:26:45.516 --> 00:26:48.932
Is having difficulty learning how to form
455
00:26:48.988 --> 00:26:54.616
words, then there are therapies you can use to
sort of take them through the steps and maybe
456
00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:59.832
help them to communicate, and then there's
different things that they can do to allow
457
00:26:59.888 --> 00:27:01.312
them to function.
458
00:27:01.408 --> 00:27:06.552
Leah: So we lived in Canada, and a healthcare
system in Canada stinks.
459
00:27:06.728 --> 00:27:07.512
Moshe: It is.
460
00:27:07.648 --> 00:27:13.324
Leah: And Akram has what you would call an
affectation in his mouth that causes me to
461
00:27:14.424 --> 00:27:15.684
have an accent.
462
00:27:16.304 --> 00:27:16.976
So I'm gonna say.
463
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:17.624
Or lisp.
464
00:27:17.704 --> 00:27:18.744
Moshe: It's not really an accent.
465
00:27:18.784 --> 00:27:20.124
It's an affectation.
466
00:27:21.204 --> 00:27:25.532
Leah: And he did not get speech therapy in
time, so he still has that, and he'll likely
467
00:27:25.588 --> 00:27:26.852
have it forever, but.
468
00:27:26.868 --> 00:27:29.404
Moshe: It'S not nearly as bad as it used to
be.
469
00:27:29.444 --> 00:27:31.384
Leah: No, he sounds.
470
00:27:32.044 --> 00:27:32.916
How would you put it?
471
00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:37.740
He kind of sounds like a british baby or like
a boss Tony or something.
472
00:27:37.852 --> 00:27:38.504
Moshe: He.
473
00:27:39.244 --> 00:27:40.904
Leah: You'll hear him eventually.
474
00:27:44.044 --> 00:27:46.236
Moshe: When I first met him, it was very.
475
00:27:46.340 --> 00:27:47.640
It. It was very interesting.
476
00:27:47.752 --> 00:27:52.424
And as his voice has changed, it's actually
gotten a lot less significant, but it's there,
477
00:27:52.504 --> 00:27:54.584
and it's just how he talks.
478
00:27:54.744 --> 00:27:58.200
And in an effort to try and correct him, they
479
00:27:58.232 --> 00:28:02.204
wanted to make his affectation stop.
480
00:28:02.704 --> 00:28:06.896
And I guess for their efforts.
481
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:12.812
They really thought that that was something
that was important for him, but I.
482
00:28:12.828 --> 00:28:17.132
Leah: Don'T really understand why it's not to
his overall functionality.
483
00:28:17.228 --> 00:28:20.124
The only thing I could say is that he's a bit
sensitive about it.
484
00:28:20.244 --> 00:28:24.300
So if you bring it up, he will say, stop
making fun of my accent, because I can't help
485
00:28:24.332 --> 00:28:24.904
it.
486
00:28:25.244 --> 00:28:27.372
There was a point in time, he became aware of
487
00:28:27.388 --> 00:28:33.540
it probably around seven ish years old, and he
knows it's a thing, but it's just the way his
488
00:28:33.572 --> 00:28:34.524
mouth works.
489
00:28:34.644 --> 00:28:37.564
And in an attempt for them to correct his
490
00:28:37.604 --> 00:28:41.918
speech, he sort of started to sound a bit,
like, robotic.
491
00:28:42.086 --> 00:28:44.566
And I think I would just rather him sound like
himself.
492
00:28:44.630 --> 00:28:45.454
What do you think?
493
00:28:45.574 --> 00:28:48.742
Moshe: I think it's important for him to be
himself.
494
00:28:48.918 --> 00:28:54.950
And because we are living in Israel, and the
expectation is that children speak Hebrew,
495
00:28:55.062 --> 00:29:00.734
which has a whole series of other affectations
that are associated with that language.
496
00:29:00.894 --> 00:29:05.954
And we discovered that when he speaks Hebrew,
he doesn't have an affectation.
497
00:29:06.314 --> 00:29:10.834
And it's kind of interesting because for
whatever reason, we know some people from
498
00:29:10.874 --> 00:29:14.834
different parts of the world who do have
accents or affectations, that when they speak
499
00:29:14.874 --> 00:29:18.014
Hebrew, they still maintain it, which is
interesting to me.
500
00:29:18.714 --> 00:29:25.178
I am fortunate in that I have lived in
multiple regions, in multiple countries now,
501
00:29:25.346 --> 00:29:31.054
and I have adapted my vocalization to a
variety of different things.
502
00:29:31.954 --> 00:29:38.828
My grandmother, my Bubby, spent several years
in England, so she adopted a somewhat british
503
00:29:38.876 --> 00:29:44.804
affectation, not an accent so much, just, you
know, vestibule and strawberries and stuff.
504
00:29:44.844 --> 00:29:46.156
So I admired her.
505
00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:49.236
So I took that on, and I lived in Quebec, so I
506
00:29:49.260 --> 00:29:53.756
had something of a Quebecois accent for a
while, and then I lived in western Canada for
507
00:29:53.780 --> 00:29:54.276
many years.
508
00:29:54.300 --> 00:29:56.924
So I had something of a west coast californian
509
00:29:57.004 --> 00:29:57.508
thing.
510
00:29:57.636 --> 00:30:00.476
And I lived in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, for
511
00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:01.126
a while.
512
00:30:01.260 --> 00:30:02.922
So I sort of took on a little bit of the
513
00:30:02.938 --> 00:30:08.554
Atlantic Canadian, you know, broom rum roof,
you know, things like that.
514
00:30:08.674 --> 00:30:15.250
So I would say that at this point, my
different ways of pronouncing things continue
515
00:30:15.322 --> 00:30:16.386
to amuse.
516
00:30:16.570 --> 00:30:20.322
And the other thing is, unfortunately, I have
517
00:30:20.378 --> 00:30:25.934
also been told that I have a bad voice.
518
00:30:26.354 --> 00:30:29.246
And so I have been corrected in my.
519
00:30:29.290 --> 00:30:33.634
My pronunciation of things at various points
in my childhood.
520
00:30:34.094 --> 00:30:42.814
So I tend to speak a lot slower than I might
have done at one point, because it makes you
521
00:30:42.854 --> 00:30:46.990
amazing at customer service, because I do
things fast.
522
00:30:47.102 --> 00:30:50.078
I walk fast, I eat fast, I drink fast, I run.
523
00:30:50.206 --> 00:30:51.714
I'm always moving fast.
524
00:30:52.014 --> 00:31:00.136
So what I've been told, and this actually came
from my father, is slow down and soften your
525
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:06.912
tone, because I had volume control issues and
a lot of autistics do, to my understanding,
526
00:31:07.008 --> 00:31:12.400
where I would basically speak everything at a
very high volume because I was expressing
527
00:31:12.432 --> 00:31:12.736
myself.
528
00:31:12.800 --> 00:31:14.016
I was passionate about it.
529
00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:18.024
And if you're passionate about something, what
you really want to do is yell in somebody's
530
00:31:18.064 --> 00:31:21.216
face as loud as you can so they can hear the
excitement in your voice.
531
00:31:21.320 --> 00:31:24.656
Leah: You want to talk about another
misunderstanding, try to explain that to
532
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:25.406
somebody.
533
00:31:25.560 --> 00:31:28.626
Ma'am, why is your large husband yelling in
534
00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:30.850
your face?
So he's not.
535
00:31:31.002 --> 00:31:35.770
Moshe: It took me years for people to be like,
calm down, calm down.
536
00:31:35.882 --> 00:31:38.026
And so now I feel like, I don't know.
537
00:31:38.050 --> 00:31:39.094
You can tell me.
538
00:31:39.394 --> 00:31:43.694
And there's going to be editing software
because it's very quiet and I'm a lot louder,
539
00:31:44.114 --> 00:31:44.874
but my.
540
00:31:44.954 --> 00:31:48.282
My voice has sort of become a lot more even
541
00:31:48.338 --> 00:31:49.314
toned, I guess.
542
00:31:49.474 --> 00:31:51.562
Leah: Yeah, I think you have an amazing voice,
actually.
543
00:31:51.658 --> 00:31:52.266
Thank you.
544
00:31:52.370 --> 00:31:55.258
So going back to the topic then, having said
545
00:31:55.306 --> 00:31:59.306
all that and all the difficulties that it
causes, you know, the neurotypical parties and
546
00:31:59.330 --> 00:32:04.746
their discomforting feelings and the autistic
parties in not understanding why people around
547
00:32:04.770 --> 00:32:07.850
them don't like them or don't want to be
around, et cetera.
548
00:32:08.042 --> 00:32:12.586
Do you think that unmasking could help?
So I'm going to call back to the example you
549
00:32:12.610 --> 00:32:14.938
gave the woman that you worked with.
550
00:32:15.066 --> 00:32:17.082
If she said, I'm not sure why you creep me
551
00:32:17.098 --> 00:32:17.906
out, but you creep me out.
552
00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:20.396
And you could have said, I apologize, but it's
553
00:32:20.420 --> 00:32:24.556
because I'm autistic, and I can't always mask
what my face is doing.
554
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:26.428
Do you think that would have helped the
situation?
555
00:32:26.596 --> 00:32:27.784
Moshe: Probably not.
556
00:32:28.084 --> 00:32:34.004
But she was russian, and so much like many
557
00:32:34.044 --> 00:32:39.780
Israelis here, eastern Europeans, Russians,
Israelis, a lot of different demographic
558
00:32:39.812 --> 00:32:41.212
groups tend to be much more.
559
00:32:41.308 --> 00:32:44.100
A lot of asian groups, they tend to be much
560
00:32:44.132 --> 00:32:45.602
more blunt in their speech.
561
00:32:45.748 --> 00:32:48.766
Americanized and canadianized social skills
562
00:32:48.870 --> 00:32:54.214
are very reserved, very shy, very constructed,
very sanitized.
563
00:32:54.294 --> 00:32:57.646
Leah: Yes, in Jerusalem, we've already heard
the r word multiple times.
564
00:32:57.710 --> 00:32:58.982
They still use it here.
565
00:32:59.118 --> 00:32:59.982
Moshe: And it's my word.
566
00:33:00.038 --> 00:33:01.014
Leah: They don't need a fence.
567
00:33:01.134 --> 00:33:03.846
Moshe: No, but I mean, this is exactly the
point.
568
00:33:04.030 --> 00:33:10.634
And I said it in the first episode, and I'll
say it again, because when I was growing up
569
00:33:10.954 --> 00:33:16.994
back in way, way back in the 1980s and
nineties, we didn't really have a very good
570
00:33:17.034 --> 00:33:18.570
understanding of neurodivergency.
571
00:33:18.602 --> 00:33:20.002
We certainly might not have called it
572
00:33:20.018 --> 00:33:21.282
neurodivergency.
573
00:33:21.458 --> 00:33:23.586
So when people asked me what was wrong with
574
00:33:23.610 --> 00:33:29.090
me, they would assume that I was retarded,
because that doesn't necessarily now it's
575
00:33:29.122 --> 00:33:34.234
actually a very pejorative term for mentally
challenged or mentally delayed.
576
00:33:34.274 --> 00:33:34.634
Delayed.
577
00:33:34.674 --> 00:33:35.290
Leah: Intellectual.
578
00:33:35.362 --> 00:33:37.628
Moshe: Intellectual delay is, I guess, the
term name.
579
00:33:37.746 --> 00:33:44.936
But retarded was sort of the catch all term
for anyone who expresses or projects
580
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:46.264
themselves in a different way.
581
00:33:46.384 --> 00:33:50.344
Leah: If you look it up, it literally means
slow.
582
00:33:50.464 --> 00:33:51.872
Slow or delayed.
583
00:33:51.968 --> 00:33:55.364
Yeah, it's gotten a really, really bad rap
584
00:33:55.864 --> 00:33:58.664
because of the way it's been used as an
abusive.
585
00:33:58.824 --> 00:33:59.408
Moshe: And it is.
586
00:33:59.456 --> 00:34:03.680
And there's very few instances where, unless
587
00:34:03.792 --> 00:34:09.120
you're referring to someone in French being
late, that you can use the word ****** or
588
00:34:09.152 --> 00:34:10.632
retarded in a positive way.
589
00:34:10.688 --> 00:34:11.688
Leah: I clean that up.
590
00:34:11.816 --> 00:34:12.488
Moshe: Right.
591
00:34:12.656 --> 00:34:14.072
But it's my word, and I'm.
592
00:34:14.128 --> 00:34:15.488
And I'm going to use it.
593
00:34:15.616 --> 00:34:18.072
And if you have an issue with me using it,
594
00:34:18.168 --> 00:34:19.992
then absolutely let me know.
595
00:34:20.128 --> 00:34:21.792
But again, as I said in the very first
596
00:34:21.848 --> 00:34:29.644
episode, way, way, two episodes ago, it's a
word that I've had to adapt for myself because
597
00:34:31.224 --> 00:34:34.154
one of the common catchphrases that I would.
598
00:34:34.224 --> 00:34:36.582
That I came up with for telling people what I
599
00:34:36.598 --> 00:34:36.798
was.
600
00:34:36.846 --> 00:34:38.454
Cause they were like, are you retarded?
601
00:34:38.614 --> 00:34:42.142
And I started telling people, no, I'm not
retarded.
602
00:34:42.278 --> 00:34:43.454
I'm autistic.
603
00:34:43.614 --> 00:34:45.510
And they were like, ooh, you can't use that
604
00:34:45.542 --> 00:34:45.926
word.
605
00:34:46.030 --> 00:34:47.982
So now I'm gonna put it on a t shirt.
606
00:34:48.118 --> 00:34:54.078
And I don't know that anyone would ever
actually print it, but it's very important.
607
00:34:54.166 --> 00:34:57.054
And I taught it to Avram back in Canada.
608
00:34:57.174 --> 00:34:58.958
Leah: He also used to say, I'm autistic.
609
00:34:59.006 --> 00:35:00.360
I'm not the r word.
610
00:35:00.542 --> 00:35:06.804
But then for us to come here and be in his
meeting for school and for them to ask us
611
00:35:06.844 --> 00:35:10.624
questions, and one of the questions was, he's
not our, is he?
612
00:35:11.044 --> 00:35:14.260
And I went, what planet are we on?
613
00:35:14.452 --> 00:35:17.252
Moshe: Because it's a different way of life.
614
00:35:17.348 --> 00:35:21.036
Anyway, that is to say that if you are
615
00:35:21.220 --> 00:35:24.224
autistic, then you can.
616
00:35:24.804 --> 00:35:27.072
I would be able to say at this point, given.
617
00:35:27.188 --> 00:35:32.960
Given my recent experience and not so recent
experience, that if I had to pick between
618
00:35:33.072 --> 00:35:39.040
teaching your child how to function like a
human, and, again, don't mean that autistic
619
00:35:39.072 --> 00:35:45.056
people aren't humans, but try to function in a
way that doesn't project your disability or
620
00:35:45.080 --> 00:35:49.616
your different abil, I don't know what you
want to call to the forefront or to teach them
621
00:35:49.640 --> 00:35:56.232
to just accept and love and operate, because,
again, I just want to say, for the record,
622
00:35:56.408 --> 00:36:03.000
that I am not saying, and Leah is not saying
that if your child or your partner or your
623
00:36:03.032 --> 00:36:09.296
friend or your spouse or whatever is autistic,
that every one of their behaviors just kind of
624
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:11.968
has to be accepted as part of who they are.
625
00:36:12.136 --> 00:36:13.008
Absolutely not.
626
00:36:13.096 --> 00:36:16.336
Because you can still say you are autistic.
627
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:18.736
And I understand that this behavior is because
628
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:25.906
you're autistic, but it's still not a behavior
that I, you know, that I feel is fair or good
629
00:36:25.970 --> 00:36:26.834
or functional.
630
00:36:26.954 --> 00:36:28.146
And so we need to work on that.
631
00:36:28.170 --> 00:36:32.010
Leah: I actually think I'm going to compile a
list of things and one episode will actually
632
00:36:32.082 --> 00:36:36.514
be a game that I like to play called, you
know, Samosha being autistic, or is he just
633
00:36:36.554 --> 00:36:37.450
being on end?
634
00:36:37.642 --> 00:36:43.242
Moshe: Because what Leah and I like to say is
autism is, is not a, an obstacle.
635
00:36:43.378 --> 00:36:44.890
It is not a barrier.
636
00:36:44.922 --> 00:36:46.154
Sorry, it's a barrier.
637
00:36:46.194 --> 00:36:48.564
It's not a, no, it's not a barrier.
638
00:36:48.604 --> 00:36:49.532
It's an obstacle.
639
00:36:49.628 --> 00:36:51.412
It's something that you have to overcome.
640
00:36:51.508 --> 00:36:54.740
But it doesn't mean that someone just is that
641
00:36:54.772 --> 00:36:54.964
way.
642
00:36:55.004 --> 00:36:57.676
They're just naturally arrogant, naturally
643
00:36:57.740 --> 00:37:01.828
selfish, naturally don't care about other
people, naturally have no empathy, naturally
644
00:37:01.876 --> 00:37:08.420
treat others with disrespect, naturally, you
know, operate in a way that is just who they
645
00:37:08.452 --> 00:37:08.644
are.
646
00:37:08.684 --> 00:37:10.012
That's just what happens.
647
00:37:10.108 --> 00:37:14.578
Leah: There are certain things that are autism
and certain things that are personality.
648
00:37:14.756 --> 00:37:19.902
And separating the two is sometimes difficult,
but what I've always said to Moshe is, it is
649
00:37:19.998 --> 00:37:22.334
harder for you, but it is not impossible.
650
00:37:22.414 --> 00:37:22.886
Moshe: Exactly.
651
00:37:22.950 --> 00:37:25.110
Leah: This topic is very important to me.
652
00:37:25.142 --> 00:37:27.126
So we're going to talk about it again and
653
00:37:27.150 --> 00:37:28.358
we're going to work on.
654
00:37:28.526 --> 00:37:33.246
Moshe: And this has been the long term work
that Leah and I put into our relationship.
655
00:37:33.390 --> 00:37:38.518
And again, to be fair, it's as much about how
I relate to her as it is about how she relates
656
00:37:38.566 --> 00:37:39.270
to me.
657
00:37:39.422 --> 00:37:41.494
And that's a whole other different topic.
658
00:37:41.534 --> 00:37:43.154
But back to the original question.
659
00:37:43.504 --> 00:37:46.704
Some people will look at somebody who is very
660
00:37:46.784 --> 00:37:51.600
clearly autistic, or they'll ask them, but why
are you behaving that way?
661
00:37:51.712 --> 00:37:53.848
And then you'll go, I'm autistic.
662
00:37:54.016 --> 00:37:56.304
And they'll be like, oh, okay, that makes
663
00:37:56.344 --> 00:37:57.024
sense now.
664
00:37:57.144 --> 00:37:58.984
I'm sorry, I was wondering.
665
00:37:59.024 --> 00:38:00.600
Or they'll go, you know what?
I don't care.
666
00:38:00.632 --> 00:38:02.128
I still don't like that behavior.
667
00:38:02.296 --> 00:38:04.488
And that's just something you kind of have to
668
00:38:04.576 --> 00:38:05.416
learn to deal with.
669
00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.528
Leah: So that is your experience, in your
opinion?
670
00:38:07.616 --> 00:38:12.100
Doing my research again on the Internet, the
majority of people do think that unmasking and
671
00:38:12.132 --> 00:38:15.020
autism will help a lot with this universally.
672
00:38:15.092 --> 00:38:15.984
Moshe: Absolutely.
673
00:38:16.404 --> 00:38:19.116
Leah: A lot of people, they really are nice
and they will understand.
674
00:38:19.220 --> 00:38:21.476
It's just that they don't know crayons.
675
00:38:21.540 --> 00:38:23.092
They don't have a file in their brain that
676
00:38:23.108 --> 00:38:26.852
tells them what to do when some of these
facial muscles all go slack in there, you
677
00:38:26.868 --> 00:38:27.236
know.
678
00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:27.984
Moshe: Right.
679
00:38:28.284 --> 00:38:32.012
Leah: So it's a learning opportunity for them
as well.
680
00:38:32.188 --> 00:38:32.764
Moshe: Right.
681
00:38:32.884 --> 00:38:37.418
Leah: So this would be a really good time for
us to turn the table, actually, and say,
682
00:38:37.506 --> 00:38:43.930
moshe, do I creep you out?
Do autistics actually experience the uncanny
683
00:38:43.962 --> 00:38:44.442
valley?
684
00:38:44.538 --> 00:38:48.282
Moshe: And the answer is, we do somewhat and
not in the same way.
685
00:38:48.338 --> 00:38:52.266
And again, I just want to preface this, as I
always do, with saying that this is the
686
00:38:52.290 --> 00:38:53.530
experience of one autistic.
687
00:38:53.562 --> 00:38:59.202
And it may not reflect on everyone else, but
688
00:38:59.258 --> 00:39:07.976
autistic people have been observed in various
studies where their discomfort may even be the
689
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:15.152
reverse of uncanny Valley, where they'll find
it more comfortable for people that are less
690
00:39:15.208 --> 00:39:17.872
human looking than more human looking.
691
00:39:18.048 --> 00:39:20.072
And I think they refer to it as, like, the
692
00:39:20.088 --> 00:39:22.864
uncanny cliff or the uncanny hill.
693
00:39:22.944 --> 00:39:23.784
Leah: It's a drop off.
694
00:39:23.824 --> 00:39:24.960
Yeah, absolutely.
695
00:39:25.112 --> 00:39:28.384
Moshe: And that is the one aspect of it.
696
00:39:28.504 --> 00:39:31.996
The other aspect of it is that autistic people
697
00:39:32.100 --> 00:39:37.180
will not traditionally be creeped out in the
same way as neurotypicals.
698
00:39:37.332 --> 00:39:44.012
Again, just experience based on research and
my own experience, because we don't have, or
699
00:39:44.028 --> 00:39:48.780
at least we're not born with the innate
concept that certain things should make us
700
00:39:48.812 --> 00:39:49.852
uncomfortable.
701
00:39:50.028 --> 00:39:54.276
So if a situation is scary or a person is
702
00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:59.800
meant to be creepy, or there's a zombie or a
monster on the screen, if you have an autistic
703
00:39:59.832 --> 00:40:03.800
child, the autistic child will offer very
little reaction.
704
00:40:03.832 --> 00:40:08.296
Or they might actually laugh at it because
they're so silly looking, but they won't have
705
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:13.760
the innate concept that this kind of person is
looking that way in order to be creepy.
706
00:40:13.832 --> 00:40:14.040
Leah: Right.
707
00:40:14.072 --> 00:40:15.720
And we actually talked about this this
708
00:40:15.752 --> 00:40:16.152
afternoon.
709
00:40:16.208 --> 00:40:18.480
We came up with this theory on our own, right.
710
00:40:18.552 --> 00:40:24.558
Is that autistic people in general seem to
have less of a concern about their own safety.
711
00:40:24.646 --> 00:40:24.870
Moshe: Correct.
712
00:40:24.902 --> 00:40:26.366
Leah: That's not every autistic.
713
00:40:26.470 --> 00:40:29.726
Obviously, Avram has that issue.
714
00:40:29.790 --> 00:40:30.574
So he.
715
00:40:30.734 --> 00:40:33.998
Where danger is really a concept, preservation
716
00:40:34.046 --> 00:40:38.194
of one's life is not something that you wish
you're processing tower off.
717
00:40:38.654 --> 00:40:45.318
So it may actually prevent the uncanny valley,
because they're typicals like me.
718
00:40:45.366 --> 00:40:51.022
And many of you out there are sort of born
with the genes of our ancestors, where if we
719
00:40:51.038 --> 00:40:56.086
were sitting by the campfire and we saw creepy
eyes in the woods, that was actual danger to
720
00:40:56.110 --> 00:40:56.990
our lives.
721
00:40:57.182 --> 00:41:00.542
So that could be where this reaction comes
722
00:41:00.598 --> 00:41:01.246
from.
723
00:41:01.430 --> 00:41:04.054
Whereas autistics seem to sort of be missing
724
00:41:04.094 --> 00:41:04.678
that.
725
00:41:04.846 --> 00:41:09.566
Moshe: Yes. A lot of autistic people,
particularly autistic parents of autistic
726
00:41:09.590 --> 00:41:12.974
people, have noted that their child seemed to
lack fear response.
727
00:41:13.014 --> 00:41:15.490
It had to be explained to them.
728
00:41:15.622 --> 00:41:19.946
And trying to explain to someone why they
729
00:41:19.970 --> 00:41:24.250
should be afraid of certain things seems
almost counterproductive.
730
00:41:24.282 --> 00:41:27.610
It's like inserting negativity into a person's
positive outlook.
731
00:41:27.762 --> 00:41:35.874
And I found it very fascinating, actually,
because autism is a very difficult concept to
732
00:41:35.914 --> 00:41:36.774
nail them.
733
00:41:37.354 --> 00:41:39.586
And again, if you've ever tried to look up the
734
00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:43.898
question, what is autism?
You get millions and millions of different
735
00:41:43.946 --> 00:41:47.682
studies and hits and references, and it could
be this or it could be that or it could be
736
00:41:47.698 --> 00:41:48.498
this or that.
737
00:41:48.586 --> 00:41:50.410
So it's really not something that people have
738
00:41:50.442 --> 00:41:51.938
spent a lot of time studying.
739
00:41:52.066 --> 00:41:54.458
So I do what I always do.
740
00:41:54.586 --> 00:41:59.210
And I said, okay, well, what's something
that's like autism, that might be better at
741
00:41:59.242 --> 00:42:01.890
defining it?
So I did a lot of research on something called
742
00:42:01.922 --> 00:42:02.674
Williams syndrome.
743
00:42:02.714 --> 00:42:04.026
And you can actually look that up.
744
00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:06.666
It's a genetic, we'll call it disorder.
745
00:42:06.850 --> 00:42:09.924
And a lot of the symptoms of Williams syndrome
746
00:42:10.074 --> 00:42:13.304
are very similar or even identical to autism.
747
00:42:13.344 --> 00:42:16.128
And in fact, in a bit of a double whammy, a
748
00:42:16.136 --> 00:42:19.144
lot of people with alien syndrome are also
diagnosed with autism.
749
00:42:19.304 --> 00:42:22.352
So I'm not even sure how that goes, but it is
out there.
750
00:42:22.488 --> 00:42:25.488
And the characteristics that the DSM six.
751
00:42:25.536 --> 00:42:26.968
Leah: Is going to look very different.
752
00:42:27.056 --> 00:42:32.168
Moshe: Stay tuned, folks, because people have
the piecemeal disorders, and they interviewed
753
00:42:32.216 --> 00:42:38.054
people with Williams syndrome and Williams
syndrome children and adults, because it's
754
00:42:38.094 --> 00:42:43.598
fortunately not one of those disabilities that
actually reduces your lifespan or causes any
755
00:42:43.686 --> 00:42:45.790
serious health issues.
756
00:42:45.942 --> 00:42:47.638
I don't believe, and again, if I'm wrong,
757
00:42:47.686 --> 00:42:48.686
please let me know.
758
00:42:48.830 --> 00:42:52.902
But it also comes with a complete absence of
759
00:42:52.958 --> 00:42:58.614
fear, a complete absence of suspicion, and a
complete absence of wariness and a complete
760
00:42:58.654 --> 00:43:06.094
absence of the ability to see someone or
something as a threat.
761
00:43:06.474 --> 00:43:09.730
And there have been instances where children
with Williams syndrome, much like autistic
762
00:43:09.762 --> 00:43:15.882
children, will just run into traffic, not
because they're concerned, even if they see
763
00:43:15.898 --> 00:43:18.426
the car coming, they'll be like, oh, I want to
go there.
764
00:43:18.450 --> 00:43:19.394
It's right across the street.
765
00:43:19.474 --> 00:43:20.978
Leah: That's why I had Avraham on a leash.
766
00:43:21.026 --> 00:43:22.594
And if you have a problem with that, you can
767
00:43:22.634 --> 00:43:23.854
certainly write to me.
768
00:43:24.434 --> 00:43:25.906
Moshe: And this is the idea.
769
00:43:26.010 --> 00:43:28.316
And they talk to people with Williams syndrome
770
00:43:28.340 --> 00:43:31.564
because their speech is oftentimes very
articulate.
771
00:43:31.604 --> 00:43:33.228
They're very, very articulate.
772
00:43:33.356 --> 00:43:35.428
And a lot of them, they're still not sure why,
773
00:43:35.476 --> 00:43:38.900
but a lot of them have enhanced auditory
sensations.
774
00:43:38.972 --> 00:43:42.364
So they're able to, they're very musically
inclined, a lot of them.
775
00:43:42.524 --> 00:43:48.900
And they talked to them and they said, why
don't you feel like, why are you concerned?
776
00:43:48.972 --> 00:43:53.728
Like, why aren't you concerned that these
things might hurt you?
777
00:43:53.916 --> 00:43:59.416
And it's just, it's a complete absence of the
ability to conceive.
778
00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:05.968
A lot of times that a person would be harmful.
779
00:44:06.136 --> 00:44:08.424
So they'll go up to complete strangers and hug
780
00:44:08.464 --> 00:44:15.856
them and tell them their whole life story
because they lack the ability to understand
781
00:44:16.040 --> 00:44:20.084
that this person who they don't know from
nobody, might be a threat to them.
782
00:44:20.404 --> 00:44:26.452
And it's kind of sad because you have to tell
this child, this adult, even, who has
783
00:44:26.508 --> 00:44:33.228
basically kept in a state of innocence, that
they have to be afraid when they have no
784
00:44:33.276 --> 00:44:35.340
concept of what fear even is.
785
00:44:35.492 --> 00:44:38.588
But fear is actually a very positive thing.
786
00:44:38.756 --> 00:44:44.492
We have these instincts in our subconscious to
help us, to protect us.
787
00:44:44.588 --> 00:44:48.458
If we see a fire, we don't go walking into the
fire because we know it's going to burn us.
788
00:44:48.556 --> 00:44:52.526
If we see a man standing there holding a giant
machete, we go, you know what?
789
00:44:52.550 --> 00:44:57.166
I think that guy with the hockey mask and the
machete might intend to harm me.
790
00:44:57.350 --> 00:45:01.726
Whereas person with autism with Williams
syndrome might be like, wow, that guy is kind
791
00:45:01.750 --> 00:45:02.094
of cool.
792
00:45:02.134 --> 00:45:02.862
I wonder what he's up to.
793
00:45:02.878 --> 00:45:04.566
Leah: What are you doing?
Exactly.
794
00:45:04.670 --> 00:45:08.230
Moshe: Because they don't have the ability to
understand that that person might be a threat
795
00:45:08.262 --> 00:45:08.550
to them.
796
00:45:08.582 --> 00:45:09.750
Leah: Exactly.
797
00:45:09.942 --> 00:45:11.558
And this brought up a whole other thing
798
00:45:11.606 --> 00:45:13.086
because, you know, that I'm a giant nerd.
799
00:45:13.110 --> 00:45:15.086
And we might explore this more in another
800
00:45:15.150 --> 00:45:15.712
episode.
801
00:45:15.798 --> 00:45:16.140
Moshe: Right.
802
00:45:16.212 --> 00:45:22.740
Leah: But in terms of why, if you subscribe to
Darwinism, why nature hasn't actually selected
803
00:45:22.812 --> 00:45:25.584
against autism at this point.
804
00:45:26.044 --> 00:45:29.716
Moshe: Yeah. So Darwinism is a really good
theory.
805
00:45:29.900 --> 00:45:36.068
And of course, we are orthodox Jews, so it's
very much part and parcel of what we believe
806
00:45:36.156 --> 00:45:39.428
anyway, because Judaism definitely does accept
science.
807
00:45:39.516 --> 00:45:41.738
So the idea of evolution and.
808
00:45:41.836 --> 00:45:44.990
And evolved evolution based on the strongest
809
00:45:45.022 --> 00:45:49.798
characteristics of each individual person or
thing or animal or what have you, is there.
810
00:45:49.926 --> 00:45:53.174
Our whole book is about that and the reality.
811
00:45:53.254 --> 00:45:53.670
Exactly.
812
00:45:53.702 --> 00:45:55.062
And the reality of the situation.
813
00:45:55.158 --> 00:45:56.118
Leah: We were better than them.
814
00:45:56.166 --> 00:45:56.998
We smashed.
815
00:45:57.126 --> 00:45:58.990
That's the whole fight books, is that.
816
00:45:59.022 --> 00:46:01.902
Moshe: Darwinism is not bad.
817
00:46:01.958 --> 00:46:03.806
And again, I don't want the soundbite from
818
00:46:03.830 --> 00:46:08.062
this episode to be Moshe and Leah talk about
the fallacy of Darwinism.
819
00:46:08.118 --> 00:46:09.350
No, no, that's not what we're saying.
820
00:46:09.382 --> 00:46:13.118
Darwinism is actually a very valid concept,
821
00:46:13.166 --> 00:46:20.446
but what we're saying is that maybe the
fittest amongst us is not necessarily the
822
00:46:20.470 --> 00:46:21.070
goal.
823
00:46:21.222 --> 00:46:21.854
Maybe.
824
00:46:21.974 --> 00:46:22.326
Leah: Right.
825
00:46:22.390 --> 00:46:24.918
So that's a very confusing thing to me because
826
00:46:24.966 --> 00:46:29.782
you would think, theoretically, that a person
who has no care for their safety and a very
827
00:46:29.878 --> 00:46:36.494
limited ability to care for themselves would
have been selected against back in the days of
828
00:46:36.534 --> 00:46:37.170
cavemen.
829
00:46:37.262 --> 00:46:37.826
Moshe: Right.
830
00:46:37.970 --> 00:46:42.074
Leah: And I have some interesting ideas as to
why that hasn't happened, but you know what?
831
00:46:42.114 --> 00:46:46.094
That might actually be a good topic for
putting content.
832
00:46:46.514 --> 00:46:47.410
Moshe: It would be.
833
00:46:47.522 --> 00:46:50.774
We can, we can discuss the, the nature of
834
00:46:51.194 --> 00:46:57.890
Darwinism as it relates to neurodivergency and
why Darwinism does not disqualify
835
00:46:57.962 --> 00:47:00.282
neurodivergency, and some theories behind
that.
836
00:47:00.418 --> 00:47:06.528
But essentially, when you have a community, if
you're individuals, then obviously the person
837
00:47:06.576 --> 00:47:11.816
who can run the fastest and live the longest
and put up with the most harsh conditions are
838
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:12.864
going to be in demand.
839
00:47:13.024 --> 00:47:15.416
But when you settle down and start building
840
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:19.784
communities and you have a multitude of
different people who are all differently able,
841
00:47:19.944 --> 00:47:25.368
then you can look at your population and go,
you know what?
842
00:47:25.496 --> 00:47:28.836
We have x number of people over there doing
all the heavy lifting.
843
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:34.268
These people seem to struggle with social
concepts, but they're real good at figuring
844
00:47:34.316 --> 00:47:35.104
out things.
845
00:47:35.444 --> 00:47:37.484
Maybe, maybe we should put them to work on
846
00:47:37.524 --> 00:47:37.964
that.
847
00:47:38.084 --> 00:47:41.340
And you guys, with the clubs and the spears,
848
00:47:41.452 --> 00:47:47.572
you can keep them safe so that they can do
their job, and in turn they will design better
849
00:47:47.628 --> 00:47:49.308
spears for you or something like that.
850
00:47:49.356 --> 00:47:53.340
Leah: That's essentially, yes, what happened
or what I think happened.
851
00:47:53.372 --> 00:47:57.896
And so I don't know what this episode is.
852
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:00.000
It comments definitely hasn't stuck to the
853
00:48:00.032 --> 00:48:00.696
topic.
854
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:02.592
I do have a couple of more things that I
855
00:48:02.608 --> 00:48:03.604
wanted to cover.
856
00:48:04.104 --> 00:48:07.080
Do autistics and non autistics fall into each
857
00:48:07.112 --> 00:48:10.840
other's uncanny value?
Now I have something personally to say about
858
00:48:10.872 --> 00:48:11.424
this.
859
00:48:11.584 --> 00:48:14.200
Moshe, in any of his incarnations as a child,
860
00:48:14.272 --> 00:48:19.604
as a teenager, as an adult, has never creeped
me out, ever.
861
00:48:20.244 --> 00:48:25.180
However, clowns make me cringe.
862
00:48:25.252 --> 00:48:26.252
I will run away.
863
00:48:26.348 --> 00:48:27.704
I will smack them.
864
00:48:28.044 --> 00:48:30.660
So try to explain that to me.
865
00:48:30.772 --> 00:48:32.516
Moshe: I can't explain that to you.
866
00:48:32.700 --> 00:48:39.236
It's just phobias is outside of my price, is
867
00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:40.612
outside of my pay range.
868
00:48:40.668 --> 00:48:42.212
Leah: The phobia of clowns.
869
00:48:42.348 --> 00:48:43.892
It's known as clover phobia.
870
00:48:43.948 --> 00:48:45.944
It's very popular phobia, yes.
871
00:48:45.984 --> 00:48:48.200
And I believe it's actually based in the
872
00:48:48.232 --> 00:48:50.824
uncanny Valley characteristic.
873
00:48:50.944 --> 00:48:52.044
Moshe: It actually is.
874
00:48:52.344 --> 00:48:54.600
And it's a very, it's.
875
00:48:54.712 --> 00:48:56.664
I mean, it's a very common phobia.
876
00:48:56.824 --> 00:48:59.464
And it does actually fall, at least I believe
877
00:48:59.504 --> 00:49:04.480
that it does, in the same category of why
people are creeped out in certain respects by
878
00:49:04.512 --> 00:49:07.936
autistics who are masking because they're
acting in a way that's human, but also not
879
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:08.360
quote.
880
00:49:08.432 --> 00:49:09.752
Leah: People find this very funny.
881
00:49:09.808 --> 00:49:11.656
I'm warning you now, don't email me pictures
882
00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:12.606
of clowns.
883
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:14.586
Don't send me clowns.
884
00:49:14.770 --> 00:49:15.314
Don't.
885
00:49:15.394 --> 00:49:16.010
Don't.
886
00:49:16.122 --> 00:49:24.454
Moshe: But the uncanny Valley effect for
autistics is a difficult concept to express
887
00:49:24.834 --> 00:49:30.754
because when you're autistic and you're
finding it difficult to social with someone,
888
00:49:30.914 --> 00:49:37.554
it actually makes you more comforted by
somebody who is less traditionally focused or
889
00:49:37.634 --> 00:49:43.580
looking rather, but they don't fit the model
of what you have come to feel is threatening
890
00:49:43.612 --> 00:49:44.164
to you.
891
00:49:44.284 --> 00:49:47.276
So, for example, somebody who.
892
00:49:47.460 --> 00:49:50.464
I don't know, I want to use a really extreme
example.
893
00:49:51.324 --> 00:49:51.732
Leah: Great.
894
00:49:51.788 --> 00:49:53.516
Something new and different for you.
895
00:49:53.700 --> 00:49:58.092
Moshe: Yes. So let's say I was talking to
somebody who had their eyes gouged out.
896
00:49:58.148 --> 00:49:59.084
Leah: I get bald.
897
00:49:59.244 --> 00:50:00.956
Moshe: I wouldn't find that very creepy.
898
00:50:01.020 --> 00:50:01.784
Leah: I would.
899
00:50:02.084 --> 00:50:07.588
Moshe: Because to me, the eyes are one of the
things that autistic people often struggle to
900
00:50:07.676 --> 00:50:08.420
relate to.
901
00:50:08.532 --> 00:50:10.212
And in fact, I'll tell a really quick story
902
00:50:10.268 --> 00:50:12.064
because we're running low on time.
903
00:50:12.764 --> 00:50:16.292
I again called into the human resources office
904
00:50:16.428 --> 00:50:22.452
because one of the supervisors, one of my
employers, said that I was leering at her.
905
00:50:22.628 --> 00:50:27.540
And I was called into the office and the human
resources manager talked to me and said, okay,
906
00:50:27.572 --> 00:50:33.092
so the complaint is that he is looking at me,
and then he'll look away, and then he'll look
907
00:50:33.108 --> 00:50:35.348
at me, and then he'll look away, and then
he'll look at me.
908
00:50:35.476 --> 00:50:38.876
And based on that, I was apparently scanning
her body up and down.
909
00:50:39.060 --> 00:50:44.584
So he talked to me and he asked me what
happened and what I think was happening.
910
00:50:44.964 --> 00:50:49.492
And he looked at me and he saw that my eyes
would look at him and then look away and then
911
00:50:49.508 --> 00:50:50.444
look at him and then look away.
912
00:50:50.484 --> 00:50:51.932
And he said, you know what?
913
00:50:51.988 --> 00:50:53.556
I already know what's happened here.
914
00:50:53.660 --> 00:50:54.180
You can go.
915
00:50:54.212 --> 00:50:55.064
There's nothing.
916
00:50:56.004 --> 00:50:57.228
I'm going to dismiss this.
917
00:50:57.316 --> 00:50:58.828
And I didn't know why at the time.
918
00:50:58.916 --> 00:51:01.388
I thought, oh, cool, so I'm free to go then.
919
00:51:01.436 --> 00:51:06.020
Great and easy going to maybe stay away from
her if that's how she feels.
920
00:51:06.172 --> 00:51:09.124
Leah: Some people are so full of themselves
and that.
921
00:51:09.164 --> 00:51:11.316
Moshe: And that is essentially what it really
came down to.
922
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:18.940
But if somebody had a difficulty, if someone's
blind, I find it a lot easier to look at them
923
00:51:19.092 --> 00:51:21.204
than if someone is.
924
00:51:21.324 --> 00:51:23.276
We'll say a regular psych when we're.
925
00:51:23.300 --> 00:51:25.828
Leah: Talking about communication again in the
next episode.
926
00:51:25.876 --> 00:51:28.658
We're going to delve deeply into eye contact,
actually.
927
00:51:28.836 --> 00:51:34.430
Moshe: And a lot of the things that make it
hard for me to look at people or relate to
928
00:51:34.462 --> 00:51:38.742
people are what anyone would consider to be
normal.
929
00:51:38.838 --> 00:51:45.878
But then to top it off, and sort of one of our
final statements, what I find creepy is
930
00:51:45.966 --> 00:51:53.310
anything that goes away from the concept of
what I determine is a standard function of the
931
00:51:53.342 --> 00:51:54.322
human body.
932
00:51:54.518 --> 00:51:57.506
So tattoos creep me out, piercings creep me
933
00:51:57.530 --> 00:52:04.082
out, plastic surgery creeps me out, because in
my mind, I have learned, either consciously or
934
00:52:04.098 --> 00:52:06.378
unconsciously, the way a person is supposed to
look.
935
00:52:06.506 --> 00:52:11.626
And anything that goes outside of that norm
makeup, believe it or not, I don't wear
936
00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:16.802
makeup, makes me uncomfortable because
anything that alters a person's appearance
937
00:52:16.938 --> 00:52:19.906
beyond what my concept of their appearance
should be.
938
00:52:20.050 --> 00:52:24.842
And again, that can come across as very
controlling.
939
00:52:25.018 --> 00:52:27.050
And it's been pointed out to me.
940
00:52:27.122 --> 00:52:30.882
Leah: I would like to say I don't wear makeup
anymore, and that was my choice because it
941
00:52:30.898 --> 00:52:31.946
made him uncomfortable.
942
00:52:32.010 --> 00:52:34.106
He didn't demand that, but it's very.
943
00:52:34.170 --> 00:52:35.458
Moshe: Simple for that to go well.
944
00:52:35.546 --> 00:52:36.962
You know, he's trying to control me.
945
00:52:36.978 --> 00:52:38.410
He doesn't want me to wear makeup.
946
00:52:38.562 --> 00:52:41.138
Actually, it's a lot sadder than that.
947
00:52:41.186 --> 00:52:46.300
It's that I have struggled to relate to
people, as many autistics have.
948
00:52:46.442 --> 00:52:52.352
And my way of relating to them is to
essentially picture them in a certain way.
949
00:52:52.528 --> 00:53:01.008
And if they don't exactly match that concept
of how they're supposed to look, then I find
950
00:53:01.056 --> 00:53:03.084
that makes me very uncomfortable.
951
00:53:04.064 --> 00:53:06.696
But it has to be subtle, and that's the
952
00:53:06.720 --> 00:53:07.056
difference.
953
00:53:07.120 --> 00:53:08.256
It has to be subtle.
954
00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:14.106
It has to be, I have a tattoo or I have a
particular, you know.
955
00:53:14.250 --> 00:53:17.074
You know, I had hair growing out of my nose.
956
00:53:17.154 --> 00:53:18.322
Leah: The hair and the nose got.
957
00:53:18.378 --> 00:53:21.034
We were both uncanny galley by him, right?
958
00:53:21.114 --> 00:53:21.850
We discussed that.
959
00:53:21.882 --> 00:53:22.850
So there was a man.
960
00:53:22.922 --> 00:53:23.946
He was a very nice man.
961
00:53:23.970 --> 00:53:26.610
He was checking our groceries for us, and he
962
00:53:26.642 --> 00:53:30.586
had hair growing all the way down the bridge
of his nose to the tip.
963
00:53:30.770 --> 00:53:32.714
And Moshe and I both noticed it.
964
00:53:32.834 --> 00:53:35.010
But I was able to sort of talk myself down
965
00:53:35.042 --> 00:53:37.458
from it, where he was totally creeped up by
it.
966
00:53:37.466 --> 00:53:39.696
He didn't say anything, should congratulate
him.
967
00:53:39.720 --> 00:53:44.976
He was very good about it, but I was sort of
able to be like, okay, so this is weird, but
968
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:49.432
I'm sure this man is very nice and, and
continue to just treat him the way that I
969
00:53:49.448 --> 00:53:49.976
would anybody.
970
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.776
And that feeling of initial unrest for me went
971
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:53.272
away.
972
00:53:53.408 --> 00:53:55.400
Moshe claims that it didn't, but he was very
973
00:53:55.432 --> 00:53:55.856
good about it.
974
00:53:55.880 --> 00:53:57.124
He wasn't insulted.
975
00:53:57.544 --> 00:54:02.752
Moshe: Oh, no. Because I. I have learned over
time that I have no poker face.
976
00:54:02.928 --> 00:54:06.720
So if I'm finding someone to be, particularly
if something.
977
00:54:06.792 --> 00:54:11.192
If I find something about someone makes me
particularly uncomfortable, a lot of the time,
978
00:54:11.248 --> 00:54:12.752
I'll just look away, or I won't.
979
00:54:12.848 --> 00:54:14.176
I won't engage with them.
980
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:18.368
And it can come across as shy or unfriendly or
why isn't he looking at me?
981
00:54:18.496 --> 00:54:22.688
But really, it's as much for you as it is for
me, because I don't want to look at you and
982
00:54:22.776 --> 00:54:27.240
have a reaction and we just make you
uncomfortable.
983
00:54:27.312 --> 00:54:29.392
Leah: We discussed this earlier, actually.
984
00:54:29.568 --> 00:54:32.880
I can tell by the way he's holding his
985
00:54:32.912 --> 00:54:39.632
shoulders, the cut of his jaw, the look in his
eye, the look on his face, what he's likely to
986
00:54:39.648 --> 00:54:40.528
be feeling.
987
00:54:40.696 --> 00:54:42.816
And when people in meetings, for example, look
988
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:44.864
at him and say, moshe, do you have anything to
add?
989
00:54:44.944 --> 00:54:49.044
I will openly say at this point, nothing that
you want to hear.
990
00:54:49.784 --> 00:54:55.120
Moshe: And that is actually something that we
can talk about in the next episode on
991
00:54:55.192 --> 00:54:56.764
revisiting communication.
992
00:54:57.664 --> 00:55:00.376
And so did you have any, do you have any final
993
00:55:00.520 --> 00:55:00.920
points?
994
00:55:00.992 --> 00:55:06.262
Leah: I mean, for me, I actually left for
conclusions, but I wanted to share one thing
995
00:55:06.318 --> 00:55:08.830
that another content creator said.
996
00:55:08.942 --> 00:55:10.806
Sure, an autistic content creator.
997
00:55:10.870 --> 00:55:16.910
She is a high functioning female autistic who
was also diagnosed later in life.
998
00:55:17.102 --> 00:55:25.270
And she said, you know, the reason why
neurotypical people are often uncomfortable in
999
00:55:25.302 --> 00:55:33.338
dealing with autistic is because autistic
people who are unmasked will violate the human
1000
00:55:33.466 --> 00:55:35.654
norms of social interactions.
1001
00:55:36.634 --> 00:55:39.010
Sometimes what it can do is hold up a mirror
1002
00:55:39.042 --> 00:55:46.442
to us regarding, really, how insignificant and
how shallow a lot of the things neurotypicals
1003
00:55:46.498 --> 00:55:47.658
concentrate on are.
1004
00:55:47.746 --> 00:55:51.554
Moshe: Right?
And that is something that sort of intersects
1005
00:55:51.594 --> 00:55:57.388
between sort of the uncanny Valley concept
that we were talking about today and
1006
00:55:57.476 --> 00:56:04.692
revisiting communication, because something
that autistics are very good at is brutal
1007
00:56:04.748 --> 00:56:12.024
honesty unfiltered by social norms, social
cues, social customs.
1008
00:56:12.404 --> 00:56:19.864
And this is what led me to make a teacher at
Auburn school cry.
1009
00:56:20.204 --> 00:56:22.204
And the fact that when we were out of.
1010
00:56:22.244 --> 00:56:22.980
Leah: Don't be modest.
1011
00:56:23.052 --> 00:56:23.906
More than once.
1012
00:56:24.020 --> 00:56:24.854
Moshe: More than once.
1013
00:56:24.974 --> 00:56:27.758
And when we were at another meeting, most
1014
00:56:27.806 --> 00:56:35.394
recently, there was, I made another teacher
cry, because I have learned through experience
1015
00:56:35.774 --> 00:56:43.758
that I am not very good at either hiding my
expression or hiding my feelings.
1016
00:56:43.926 --> 00:56:49.970
So the question becomes, if you want my
opinion, I will give you my opinion, but you
1017
00:56:50.002 --> 00:56:55.058
might not want my opinion if you want to lull
yourself into a sense of, you know, self
1018
00:56:55.106 --> 00:57:00.698
righteousness or sense of security about what
you're doing, because I will tell you to your
1019
00:57:00.746 --> 00:57:04.734
face, what you're doing is unfair, unjust.
1020
00:57:05.154 --> 00:57:07.506
You're clearly unaware of what you're doing.
1021
00:57:07.650 --> 00:57:11.770
And I will just kind of sit back and go, well,
you wanted my opinion.
1022
00:57:11.882 --> 00:57:13.946
Leah: Yeah. And that's fair.
1023
00:57:14.010 --> 00:57:16.234
I mean, you go into meetings for Avram with
1024
00:57:16.274 --> 00:57:19.442
only Avram in mind, and you're not shy about
that.
1025
00:57:19.538 --> 00:57:19.810
Moshe: Yeah.
1026
00:57:19.842 --> 00:57:22.194
Leah: Because somebody cares how the music is.
1027
00:57:22.314 --> 00:57:25.306
Moshe: Yes, because I'm out for my family.
1028
00:57:25.370 --> 00:57:27.546
I'm out for my kids and out for Leah.
1029
00:57:27.730 --> 00:57:34.254
And I am never shy to talk about how something
makes me feel.
1030
00:57:34.674 --> 00:57:38.914
I've been told that I should be, but I don't
think that that's reasonable.
1031
00:57:39.034 --> 00:57:39.698
Leah: Absolutely.
1032
00:57:39.746 --> 00:57:41.730
So do we have any conclusions about the
1033
00:57:41.762 --> 00:57:43.340
uncanny Valley and autism?
1034
00:57:43.442 --> 00:57:48.896
Moshe: The only conclusion that I have is
essentially we've already discussed, which is
1035
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:54.800
that the uncanny valley, once again, is not
saying that autistic people are, by their
1036
00:57:54.832 --> 00:57:55.984
nature creepy.
1037
00:57:56.144 --> 00:57:59.376
It's that unfortunately, we live in a society,
1038
00:57:59.560 --> 00:58:03.416
wherever you happen to live, when you're
listening to this, that tells you that you
1039
00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:05.008
have to behave in a certain way.
1040
00:58:05.136 --> 00:58:07.648
And because autistics don't necessarily always
1041
00:58:07.696 --> 00:58:11.814
behave in the way that they're expected to
behave, that they're told that they have to
1042
00:58:11.854 --> 00:58:13.126
behave a certain way.
1043
00:58:13.270 --> 00:58:16.022
And by trying to be someone that they're not,
1044
00:58:16.198 --> 00:58:22.086
then they end up causing more people to be
uncomfortable by them than if they just were.
1045
00:58:22.110 --> 00:58:26.006
Like, you know what?
This is who I am, and that is something that
1046
00:58:26.030 --> 00:58:27.590
you'll have to get used to.
1047
00:58:27.662 --> 00:58:30.470
So if you're autistic and you've had
1048
00:58:30.502 --> 00:58:32.886
experiences like I have, let me know.
1049
00:58:32.950 --> 00:58:34.542
Write in, comment on this.
1050
00:58:34.598 --> 00:58:37.340
Write us five stars or four stars or one star,
whatever.
1051
00:58:37.502 --> 00:58:45.520
But don't be ashamed and don't be
uncomfortable by your own autism.
1052
00:58:45.712 --> 00:58:46.840
Accept it, love it.
1053
00:58:46.872 --> 00:58:49.520
If you have an autistic child, don't try and
1054
00:58:49.552 --> 00:58:54.744
figure out ways to make them look more normal.
1055
00:58:54.904 --> 00:58:58.128
Accept who they are and help other people.
1056
00:58:58.256 --> 00:59:02.976
Leah: I want to say it also on the other way
around, if one of your friends or a spouse of
1057
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:07.268
yours or somebody you're dating gives you that
creepy feeling, don't be ashamed of that.
1058
00:59:07.396 --> 00:59:09.184
Openly communicate it.
1059
00:59:09.724 --> 00:59:11.452
So your face is doing a thing.
1060
00:59:11.508 --> 00:59:13.172
Is there something you'd like to tell me?
1061
00:59:13.268 --> 00:59:18.732
Moshe: And that's definitely a good way to
open up a conversation and maybe start a
1062
00:59:18.748 --> 00:59:24.876
dialogue about breaking down barriers and
understanding each other better.
1063
00:59:24.980 --> 00:59:26.204
Leah: Can we in on a joke?
1064
00:59:26.324 --> 00:59:26.772
Moshe: Sure.
1065
00:59:26.868 --> 00:59:27.540
Leah: How should.
1066
00:59:27.652 --> 00:59:28.108
Moshe: Yes.
1067
00:59:28.196 --> 00:59:32.210
Leah: What do you call it when we mask so well
that a neurotypical can't tell that you're
1068
00:59:32.242 --> 00:59:33.162
autistic?
1069
00:59:33.338 --> 00:59:33.882
Moshe: I don't know.
1070
00:59:33.938 --> 00:59:34.898
What do you call it?
1071
00:59:35.026 --> 00:59:36.974
Leah: You committed ASCII and Oz.
1072
00:59:37.474 --> 00:59:38.814
Moshe: Thank you for listening.
1073
00:59:39.394 --> 00:59:41.210
Well, that's our show for today.
1074
00:59:41.362 --> 00:59:44.294
Now, you know one autistic just a little bit
better.
1075
00:59:44.754 --> 00:59:50.938
So something you may not know about some
autistics is that we often struggle with
1076
00:59:50.986 --> 00:59:52.654
ending social interactions.
1077
00:59:53.074 --> 00:59:54.694
So, Leah.
1078
00:59:55.474 --> 00:59:56.538
Leah: All right, Moshe.
1079
00:59:56.586 --> 00:59:57.398
I'll take care of it.
1080
00:59:57.426 --> 01:00:00.942
It. Thank you for listening to now you know
one autistic.
1081
01:00:00.998 --> 01:00:01.774
See you next week.