Uncanny Autism: Bridging the Uncanny Valley of Neurodiversity?

Episode Title: Uncanny Autism: Bridging the Uncanny Valley of Neurodiversity?

Episode Number: 3

Release Date: Apr 18, 2024

Duration: 1:00:01

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah discuss the concept of the uncanny valley and how it relates to autism. They explore how autistic individuals, particularly those who mask, can sometimes evoke feelings of unease in neurotypical people. The hosts delve into the reasons behind this phenomenon, discussing masking, unmasking, and the challenges faced by autistic individuals in navigating social interactions.

Key Takeaways:

• Uncanny Valley and Autism: The uncanny valley theory, often used in robotics and animation, is applied to the context of autism to explain why some autistic individuals may evoke feelings of unease in neurotypical people.
• Masking and Unmasking: Masking is a common coping mechanism used by autistic individuals to fit in with neurotypical society. Unmasking occurs when an autistic person's true self unintentionally emerges, potentially leading to discomfort in others.
• The Impact of Masking: The hosts discuss the negative consequences of masking for autistic individuals, emphasizing the importance of acceptance and understanding.
• Neurodiversity and Acceptance: The episode promotes acceptance and understanding of neurodiversity, encouraging open communication and empathy in interactions between autistic and neurotypical individuals.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The definition and origins of the uncanny valley theory.
• How masking and unmasking can affect social interactions.
• The challenges faced by autistic individuals in navigating a neurotypical world.
• The importance of accepting and embracing neurodiversity.

Quotes:

• "Autistics often do it (masking) without even intending to do it." - Moshe
• "The uncanny valley effect for autistics is a difficult concept to express." - Moshe
• "Don't be ashamed and don't be uncomfortable by your own autism." - Moshe

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Transcript:

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Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic.

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Leah: I'm Leah, and I'm boring.

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Moshe: Welcome to now you know one autistic.

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Leah: A podcast about neurodiversity in
couples, marriage meltdowns, and making it all

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work.

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Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast
reflect the experience of one couple and one

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autistic.

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Leah: Nothing that you hear in this podcast
should be taken as a medical opinion.

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And unless otherwise stated, no one is an
accredited specialist in any of the many

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fields that comprise the autism spectrum.

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Moshe: But as someone who is on the autism
spectrum, I feel that my experiences will be

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very valuable to many of you, whether you're
on the spectrum, a support person like Leah,

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or just a curious bystander.

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Leah: If you think that you or someone you
care about may be autistic, consult your

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family doctor.

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Hi, Moshe.

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Moshe: Hi, Leah.

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Leah: How are you today?

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Moshe: Very well.

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How are you?

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Leah: I'm all right.

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So we're gonna take a little bit of a break

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from communication.

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I mean, we are communicating, right?

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Because we're talking.

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Moshe: We're currently communicating, right?

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Leah: But we're gonna do a different topic
today just so that everybody doesn't get tired

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of the same topic over and over again.

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Moshe: Sounds good.

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Leah: It might be a little bit of a
controversial topic.

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It might be offensive to some viewers, so just
listen with caution.

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And if you have younger people who may not
understand, possibly listen with them so that

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you can explain some of the more difficult
concepts in this episode.

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So what are we discussing today?
Moja?

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Moshe: So today we are titling this episode,
at least at this moment, as the uncanny valley

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of autism.

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Leah: Can you explain to everyone what that.

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Moshe: Means, the uncanny valley of autism?
Well, the uncanny valley refers to the theory

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that when somebody goes from trying to portray
a human versus someone who is decidedly

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unhuman, there is a increase in comfort level
that gradually increases from non human to

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human until a point right before fully human,
where there's a very significant dip.

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And that dip is referred to in the theory as
the uncanny valley.

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Leah: Right.

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So, as you can see, maybe with that brief

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explanation, you can understand why we would
think that some people would find this

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controversial.

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We're in no way referring to people on the

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spectrum or people off the spectrum as non
humans.

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It really is just the theory and the
definition.

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The reason why non human is.

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Is used in the definition is because it was

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actually coined by people who work in
robotics.

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They were trying to make robots people like,
and they noticed that as their robots became

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more and more human, people in general would
like them very much until they became too

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human, but not quite white.

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And that would cause feelings of unease, let's

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say.

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Moshe: Correct.

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Leah: So the definition, I mean, that I wrote
down.

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So let's just go with that.

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What is the uncanny valley theory in general?

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So it says that people find human, like robots
and or animations more appealing the more

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human they appear.

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Until they don't.

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So when I say animations, they also sort of
use this theory in animated movies.

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Animated studios use it.

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They use it a lot in video games.

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If the non human entity, let's say, is too
close but not quite human, they tend to cause

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a feeling of unease and creepiness.

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So when I was doing my research, one really

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cool story that I found was, it's a really
popular movie, Shrek.

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I mean, it's a huge hit.

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Apparently, when they first screened it for

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small children, a lot of them ended up frying
or panicking or wanting to leave, asking for

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their mom, because apparently Fiona looked too
human.

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So they actually had to go back to the drawing
board and make it look more like a cartoon.

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And now it's the hit that we lost.

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Moshe: Exactly, because the.

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I don't know.

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Elea can probably explain it a little bit
better.

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But essentially, the way it works in theory is
that the things that someone find comforting

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or positive emotion invoking about things that
resemble humans end up creating a sense of

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unease when the subject, or the object,
rather, is human looking.

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But there's just something slightly, or maybe
not so slightly off about it.

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Like, for example, the reason that people find
zombies to be creepy is because they're

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basically human.

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But obviously, there's something decidedly

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unhuman about them.

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It's the same reason that some people are

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afraid of dolls, or some people are afraid of
clowns, or some people are afraid.

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I use the word afraid, but some people are
creeped out, I should say, by things that are

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human looking, but there's just something
about them that makes them feel, like,

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uncomfortable.

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Right?

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Leah: Yeah. So I looked at a lot of charts and
I looked at a lot of studies, and the theory

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goes that people will like non human objects
that resemble humans up until a point when

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they switch.

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There's this line where they switch to, okay,

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well, this is.

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Oh, look, it's a robot trying to be human.

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How cute is that?
But there's a point where they can become so

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lifelike that they switch to, oh, that is the
human failing at being human.

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That's creepy.

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And that is the valley that you're talking

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about.

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So if you look up a graphic about uncanny

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valley, literally see, like, a dip in the
graph.

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And that's considered the uncanny valley.

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It's a small portion of space where it goes

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from, wow, that's a robot trying to be cute
to, oh, that's a human being miserably

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athenian.

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Moshe: Correct.

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Leah: So how does this also tie into our
topic?

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I think that was sort of loosely, vaguely,
yeah.

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Moshe: We're talking a lot about the concept
of Uncanny Valley, and I'm sure you could look

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up podcasts that deal specifically with the
uncanny valley in the sense of what it is and

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why it is and what might have caused it or
what have you.

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But what we're actually talking about, and
again, it's something of a controversial

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topic, which is why we waited until the third
episode to bring it up, is how.

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And again, I'm autistic, so I'm maybe a little
bit in a better position to talk about it, or

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at least introduce it.

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How autistic people or neurodivergent people

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can invoke in non autistics, the uncanny
valley effect.

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And just to be fair, how non neurodivergence
can invoke the same reaction, or if they even

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invoke the same reaction in an autistic.

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And just to tie it all together, why uncanny

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valley?
The theory of uncanny Valley is, or maybe you

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can obviously give your own opinion, but our
hypothesis is that the uncanny valley theory

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actually is different or even somewhat absent
in an autistic.

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And we'll definitely talk about that as well.

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Leah: Yeah. So over and over again, you'll
hear, especially autistic males, for some

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reason, be described as creepy.

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So people will do, you know, they'll have

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what's called a thin slice judgment or a snap
judgment, where they will look at a person

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taking the visual, very base information and
just go, ooh, he's creepy.

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Now, why do you say, or what do you think the
reason behind that is?

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Moshe: Well, as someone who is on the
spectrum, as the intro has mentioned, is that

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the theory is that an autistic person,
particularly an autistic person that is

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masking, is acting a certain way.

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But the mask is not perfect because it's not

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able to be, because it's, you know, a person
is either autistic or they're not.

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And we're not even going to get into the
theory that there's autistics out there who

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are just so good at masking and are able to
maintain it consistently that they're

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essentially not autistic at all.

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Leah: Yes, but you don't have to be like me or
a trained professional to see it.

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Often trained professionals miss it because
you would be surprised how many times I get

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asked, you know, Moshe, who's such a great
guy, but is there something wrong with him?

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It'll take people, like, three months of
really close contact with you to even go

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there.

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Moshe: And that's exactly it.

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And this is why it's being.

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It's coming up.

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It would be a very different podcast episode

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if it were two neurotypicals sitting together
and going, do you think autistic people are

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creepy?
But this is actually not only a theory that we

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researched and read about and found examples
of.

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This is my lived experience.

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This is my lived experience from the time I

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was very young until the present, even where
people have met me at various stages in my

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life, in various stages of my autism, and I
should really say in various stages, my

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masking my autism.

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And they would be close to me, and they would,

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you know, sometimes they would go, I don't
know, there's something.

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There's something going on there.

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Or I would enter a new work environment, and I

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would get called in to human resources offices
because people would say, you know, I don't

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actually know what this is about, but some
people have been mentioning that you've made

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them feel very uncomfortable.

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Do you know what that might be caused by?

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And of course, I was surprised because I had
no idea, number one, that I was.

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And number two, why I would.

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And number three, I couldn't even imagine what

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it was about what I was doing that made them
feel uncomfortable.

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Leah: It's unfortunate that the answer to it
is you weren't actually doing anything.

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They were basically seeing your micro
expressions and the way that you look like

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them, but you're acting quite like them.

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And they had a snap response.

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Moshe: Yes. And some people were very subtle
about it, and they just avoided me entirely.

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And some people were very non subtle about it.

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In a previous job that I had, I would.

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I was sitting.

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We were sitting a bunch of cubicles, and I was

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sitting across the cubicle, separated by a.

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By, like a glass or a poly something.

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You know, what's the word I'm looking for?
Pain.

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We'll say, like a pain of transparent, clear
substance.

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Probably glass, maybe not, doesn't matter for
the points of this.

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And there was this other female co worker that
sat on the other side of it, and I would take

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calls, as I always do, and I would just sit
there, and I would be emoting and carrying on.

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And eventually I noticed that she would take
pieces of paper over the glass facing me.

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And I was who I am, and I was like, I'm sorry,
what?

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Why.

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Why are you.

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Why are you doing that?
And she would say, you.

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You really do.

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I don't know that.

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You know, but when you're.

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When you're on the phone or when you're

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working, sometimes you kind of look over at me
and you have this look on your face, and it

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makes me very uncomfortable.

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So I just.

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I cannot concentrate on what I'm doing and
look at you.

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And.

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I'm sorry.

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I don't know if it's intentional.

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I don't know if this is something that you.

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That you know that you're doing, but I need to
not look at you while I'm working.

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Leah: Right.

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So that is actually very interesting because

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that face thing that you're describing is
essentially unmasking.

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So it's when you're distracted by something
else or tired or upset, and you forget to put

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touching in your eyebrows and turn up the
corners of your mouth and, you know, do human

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check, like, is my face doing all the things?
And that happens a lot, and it unfairly,

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maybe, or maybe not.

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Creeps some people out.

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Moshe: Yeah. And it's just.

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It's kind of something that I've had to live

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with.

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But even before I had my diagnosis, I maybe

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unconsciously came up with ways around it.

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And the way that I chose, the way that was

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most convenient for me, is I made myself
harmless or as harmless as I possibly could.

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So I would walk around with my eyes down.

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I would sort of curl up in, like, a very

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shoulders inverted, like, very, very non
threatening position.

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Because what I thought, and I don't even know
to this day if it was a valid assumption or

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not, was I thought people were actually afraid
of me.

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Leah: Right?

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Moshe: So I looked, I said, okay, well, if
they're afraid of me, then I have to make

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myself as non threatening as possible.

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And so eventually, I got the nickname of Sully

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from Monsters, Inc. Where they said, you're a
monster, but you're a very cuddly, warm,

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approachable monster.

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Leah: Again, if you see him, he does kind of
look like Sully.

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He's a tall guy, you know, big arms, big
shoulders, big beer.

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I see white people went there.

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Moshe: Yes. So I was an approachable person,
and I made myself very, very non threatening.

238
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But interestingly enough, this worked quite
well on the.

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I mean, again, I didn't do, like, a poll of
the office, but it worked very well on a lot

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of the people that I worked with.

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But I noticed that there were a lot of

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employees there that were actually very
different, and they never had a problem with

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me.

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They were very, they approached me, they

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talked to me.

246
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They found me to be very nice and sweet and

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friendly.

248
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And one of them happened to have been my

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supervisor.

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And I brought up to her one day about the fact

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that this was happening.

252
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And she says, I have no idea what's going on.

253
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I've never noticed anything like, I don't
like, I sit, like, pretty close to you, and I

254
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haven't noticed that you have a look on your
face so that there's anything that would cause

255
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them to do that.

256
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Maybe they're moving to a different department

257
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anyway, so you should probably not even worry
about it.

258
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But if it's up to me, I'm telling you, there's
nothing that you're doing that seems to be,

259
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you know, causing.

260
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Leah: That kind of reaction that must have
been so unhappy and so uncomfortable for you.

261
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And another pitfall, people not having a
diagnosis each other much, much older.

262
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Moshe: Right.

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Leah: I think I put my toe or our toe into a
topic that we're, we sort of kissed and we're

264
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going to have to reveal eventually is, uh, we,
unfortunately for us, haven't always been

265
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together that, haven't always been a couple.

266
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And that coping mechanism that Moshe describes

267
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led me to find a much different man than I had
left many years before.

268
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And actually, this thing that he said works
for everybody else absolutely did not work for

269
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me, because he used to be tall and big and
brazen and arrogant, and maybe a lot of people

270
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didn't like that, but I did.

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And I said, who are you?

272
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If you want to talk about the world affecting
somebody, if you want to talk about the world

273
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beating somebody down, especially for
something that's not even your fault, it was a

274
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very, very sad, unfortunate thing.

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Moshe: Yeah. And the problem that many
autistics face.

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And again, I'm just one autistic, so I can't
really comment on the autistic community at

277
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large.

278
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But the problem that I would venture that a

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lot of autistics and the ones that I've met
have faced is the different masks that they

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end up having to wear.

281
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And they wear a mask for work, and they wear a

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mask for their friends, and they wear a mask
if they have a relationship for their partner,

283
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and they wear a mask that they just kind of
put on when they, when they go out, because

284
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they're going to be around people and they're
like, well, I have to person now.

285
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I have to go to the store and be out in
public, and it's going to be bright and it's

286
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going to be loud, and it's going to be a lot
of different sensations.

287
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And if I want to fit in, then I have to wear a
mask.

288
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And if you're the kind of person that I was
undiagnosed, didn't even know that I was

289
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autistic, just knew that people were creeped
out by me, then it was an unconscious effort.

290
00:17:53.934 --> 00:17:57.606
It's not like someone told me, okay, you have
to look a certain way and act a certain way

291
00:17:57.630 --> 00:17:58.478
when you're in public.

292
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Autistics often do it without even intending

293
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to do it.

294
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And they, it's called masking.

295
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It's a concept that is very familiar to the
neurodivergent community.

296
00:18:09.174 --> 00:18:17.994
But essentially, in very quick summary, it's
the ability to put on a certain appearance or

297
00:18:18.374 --> 00:18:21.862
demeanor or mannerism, copy people.

298
00:18:21.918 --> 00:18:27.238
Leah: That they find neurotypical so that they
can be more like them and be accepted

299
00:18:27.286 --> 00:18:27.918
socially.

300
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Moshe: And actually, it's something that a lot
of the, we'll call them theories of, quote

301
00:18:33.862 --> 00:18:39.470
unquote, handling an autistic is to teach them
to mask, because VA is.

302
00:18:39.542 --> 00:18:40.862
Leah: All teachings and beauty.

303
00:18:40.958 --> 00:18:41.358
Moshe: Right.

304
00:18:41.446 --> 00:18:45.862
And the thing that sort of ties into the

305
00:18:45.878 --> 00:18:52.266
beginning of this episode is that Leah, and in
particular myself, are not saying that

306
00:18:52.350 --> 00:18:54.514
autistics are creepy.

307
00:18:54.634 --> 00:18:57.442
And we're not talking about how people with

308
00:18:57.498 --> 00:19:02.930
autism create this feeling that other people
are creeped out by them.

309
00:19:02.962 --> 00:19:12.498
What we're saying is that in an effort to
attempt to mask and behave the way we are

310
00:19:12.586 --> 00:19:20.246
taught or told or led to believe that we're
supposed to act, we end up wearing someone

311
00:19:20.310 --> 00:19:21.354
else's face.

312
00:19:21.934 --> 00:19:24.782
Leah: And you essentially fall into that
family.

313
00:19:24.918 --> 00:19:26.022
Moshe: We put ourselves in it.

314
00:19:26.078 --> 00:19:27.486
Leah: No falls on your own.

315
00:19:27.670 --> 00:19:29.582
And other people are not understanding.

316
00:19:29.638 --> 00:19:33.150
So let's talk about actually an interesting
concept.

317
00:19:33.302 --> 00:19:41.190
This seems to be the more functional you are,
the lower support needs you have.

318
00:19:41.302 --> 00:19:42.894
I'm doing air quotes, by the way.

319
00:19:42.934 --> 00:19:46.604
If you can't cure in that noise, the more the

320
00:19:46.644 --> 00:19:53.684
uncanny valet seems to become a problem
because the more capable of masking you.

321
00:19:53.804 --> 00:19:56.236
So that was also within our research.

322
00:19:56.340 --> 00:20:00.668
And the next step to that is it's even harder

323
00:20:00.716 --> 00:20:02.824
for women on the spectrum.

324
00:20:03.364 --> 00:20:06.292
And it is the hardest for attractive.

325
00:20:06.348 --> 00:20:09.036
Moshe: Women on the spectrum based on the
studies.

326
00:20:09.140 --> 00:20:11.344
Leah: Yeah. Why do you think that might be?

327
00:20:11.774 --> 00:20:16.790
Moshe: Well, it really does kind of go back to
a number of things that I just said, which is

328
00:20:16.862 --> 00:20:22.174
when, when you are raised the way that I am
and the way I'm sure a lot of other autistics

329
00:20:22.214 --> 00:20:22.782
are raised.

330
00:20:22.878 --> 00:20:24.470
And I just want to make mention of the fact

331
00:20:24.502 --> 00:20:29.966
that there's a lot of parents out there who
were unfamiliar with autism up until the

332
00:20:29.990 --> 00:20:31.834
moment that their child was diagnosed.

333
00:20:32.334 --> 00:20:35.670
And they often have the very best of

334
00:20:35.702 --> 00:20:40.024
intentions and think that they're doing the
best that they can to help their child.

335
00:20:40.564 --> 00:20:46.956
And why would you ever have this person that
you absolutely adore and love and cherish and

336
00:20:46.980 --> 00:20:53.492
want the best for and not try to do what you
feel is what they need in order to function?

337
00:20:53.628 --> 00:21:00.660
Because nobody wants to slap a label on their
child's forehead and say, well, this kid is

338
00:21:00.692 --> 00:21:02.652
nonfunctional, or this kid is semi functional.

339
00:21:02.708 --> 00:21:06.136
This kid is differently abled or whatever, you

340
00:21:06.160 --> 00:21:08.284
know, buzzword you want to use.

341
00:21:08.744 --> 00:21:12.760
And subsequently, you're basically teaching

342
00:21:12.792 --> 00:21:18.304
your child to, in effect, go out in public
wearing a clown mask because.

343
00:21:18.464 --> 00:21:22.376
Because they're told that they need to wear
this clown mask.

344
00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:26.328
And I use clown mask because I know that it's
creeped out by clowns, but they're basically

345
00:21:26.376 --> 00:21:29.528
telling their kid, you can't go out with that
face.

346
00:21:29.616 --> 00:21:34.518
You have to wear this clown mask so people
will recognize that you are a part of them,

347
00:21:34.686 --> 00:21:38.074
and people will look at them and go, who the
heck is this?

348
00:21:38.374 --> 00:21:41.766
And then the kid will be like, I don't
understand why people are all creeped out by

349
00:21:41.790 --> 00:21:41.902
me.

350
00:21:41.918 --> 00:21:43.382
I'm putting on the mask that you wanted me to

351
00:21:43.398 --> 00:21:43.954
wear.

352
00:21:44.574 --> 00:21:48.710
But conversely, if you have a parent who

353
00:21:48.742 --> 00:21:53.118
either is so unfamiliar with autism that
they're like, I don't know, just do whatever,

354
00:21:53.286 --> 00:21:56.286
or they are familiar enough with it that
they're like, you know what?

355
00:21:56.310 --> 00:21:58.502
No, my kid is autistic.

356
00:21:58.598 --> 00:21:59.484
He stood.

357
00:21:59.614 --> 00:22:01.960
He, he has different mannerisms.

358
00:22:02.032 --> 00:22:03.240
He has a weird walk.

359
00:22:03.312 --> 00:22:04.584
He has a weird way of doing things.

360
00:22:04.624 --> 00:22:06.376
He's always moving and twiddling his fingers

361
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:10.672
and twirling his hair and blinking and
snorting and doing all manner of things.

362
00:22:10.848 --> 00:22:14.608
And if you don't like it, well, too bad,
because that's who he is.

363
00:22:14.776 --> 00:22:16.256
Leah: That's the kind of parent are you?

364
00:22:16.360 --> 00:22:23.480
Moshe: Yes. Those are the kids that are
actually, that don't get that reaction because

365
00:22:23.672 --> 00:22:30.032
if you're out in, in public, then people are
seeing you, and sometimes you're just acting a

366
00:22:30.048 --> 00:22:34.720
certain way, or sometimes you're overly sound
sensitive, so you have your muffs on, or

367
00:22:34.752 --> 00:22:38.544
sometimes you're overly visually sensitive,
and then you have dark glasses on, or

368
00:22:38.584 --> 00:22:43.792
sometimes you have a parent who's walking
around with their child on a harness.

369
00:22:43.928 --> 00:22:44.592
Leah: Got it.

370
00:22:44.688 --> 00:22:50.244
Moshe: And there's different terms that people
use, which even I am still like.

371
00:22:50.744 --> 00:22:57.536
Imagine later in life, learning in my forties
that I'm autistic and now learning the way

372
00:22:57.600 --> 00:23:02.720
autistic, you know, parents or people are
supposed to are supposed to be.

373
00:23:02.832 --> 00:23:07.280
It's like reading an instruction manual about
yourself and going, oh, that's how I'm

374
00:23:07.312 --> 00:23:08.184
supposed to act.

375
00:23:08.344 --> 00:23:10.632
But if you're, if you're out in public, if

376
00:23:10.648 --> 00:23:15.928
you're at the coffee shop or you're out for a
walk or you're at the park and you're, you're

377
00:23:15.976 --> 00:23:20.706
a kid, you have, you have an eight year old,
and you have two eight year olds.

378
00:23:20.730 --> 00:23:21.946
Let's say you're a parent.

379
00:23:22.050 --> 00:23:24.338
Your friend is also a parent, and both of you

380
00:23:24.346 --> 00:23:29.466
have an eight year old boy, and both boys are
at the park playing, and one boy is just

381
00:23:29.610 --> 00:23:31.442
living his life, doing his best.

382
00:23:31.578 --> 00:23:34.466
And occasionally he'll do stuff and then just

383
00:23:34.530 --> 00:23:39.374
act a certain way, and then the other boy will
go, I don't want to be his friend who's weird.

384
00:23:39.794 --> 00:23:45.296
But then you have this other boy who's wearing
earmuffs, and he's, like, shaking his hands

385
00:23:45.320 --> 00:23:48.632
and stuff and really excited, and it's like,
oh, my gosh, he's so cute.

386
00:23:48.728 --> 00:23:49.272
Leah: Exactly.

387
00:23:49.328 --> 00:23:51.568
Moshe: So doesn't that seem contradictory to
you?

388
00:23:51.616 --> 00:23:52.976
Leah: It does, but it's a true thing.

389
00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:54.488
And I'll tell you exactly why.

390
00:23:54.616 --> 00:23:55.288
Avram.

391
00:23:55.376 --> 00:23:58.696
By a neurotypical standards, Avram is so

392
00:23:58.840 --> 00:23:59.712
weird.

393
00:23:59.888 --> 00:24:00.792
Let's be honest.

394
00:24:00.848 --> 00:24:02.208
He's a weird little dude.

395
00:24:02.296 --> 00:24:02.704
Moshe: Yes.

396
00:24:02.784 --> 00:24:04.816
Leah: But he's so popular.

397
00:24:05.000 --> 00:24:06.088
People love him.

398
00:24:06.136 --> 00:24:11.716
He's only ever described as adorable, cute,
swooshy, so smart, so talented.

399
00:24:11.820 --> 00:24:12.844
Let's be his friend.

400
00:24:12.924 --> 00:24:13.904
So cool.

401
00:24:14.284 --> 00:24:18.948
Because he's not expected to not be who he is.

402
00:24:19.076 --> 00:24:23.356
Moshe: Right?
And that is exactly the problem.

403
00:24:23.540 --> 00:24:27.984
And this is the second soapbox of the series
that it only took, you know, three episodes.

404
00:24:28.604 --> 00:24:30.304
I have a real problem.

405
00:24:30.884 --> 00:24:33.748
And again, this is not just my own opinion.

406
00:24:33.876 --> 00:24:36.104
This is based on my lived experience.

407
00:24:36.604 --> 00:24:38.184
I have a real problem.

408
00:24:38.484 --> 00:24:42.716
And I struggled, and I'll be the first one to
say that I struggled with it, because you'd

409
00:24:42.740 --> 00:24:46.940
think that if you're autistic, suddenly you
understand all autistics, and you don't.

410
00:24:47.132 --> 00:24:48.156
You don't understand it.

411
00:24:48.180 --> 00:24:49.140
Like, we're one autistic.

412
00:24:49.172 --> 00:24:51.028
And if you know one autistic, you know one
autistic.

413
00:24:51.076 --> 00:24:52.612
That's the name of the podcast now.

414
00:24:52.628 --> 00:24:53.460
You know one autistic.

415
00:24:53.492 --> 00:24:54.428
Thank you for listening.

416
00:24:54.556 --> 00:24:55.224
But.

417
00:24:55.924 --> 00:24:56.900
But you.

418
00:24:56.972 --> 00:24:58.860
I struggled with it, and I came to a

419
00:24:58.892 --> 00:25:07.028
conclusion, unfortunately, later than I should
have, which is, I am very uncomfortable with

420
00:25:07.076 --> 00:25:11.468
anything that tries to teach someone with
autism to stop acting like they have autism.

421
00:25:11.556 --> 00:25:13.220
Leah: Right?
Because they do.

422
00:25:13.252 --> 00:25:14.020
So why should.

423
00:25:14.132 --> 00:25:20.892
Moshe: Because why would you tell anyone,
especially a child, that they have to act in a

424
00:25:20.908 --> 00:25:25.516
way, that's not who they actually are.

425
00:25:25.580 --> 00:25:27.204
Leah: I do want to put a disclaimer here.

426
00:25:27.284 --> 00:25:29.876
Some children actually do need therapy in

427
00:25:29.900 --> 00:25:32.520
order to be able to engage with the world at
all.

428
00:25:32.612 --> 00:25:32.936
Moshe: Right?

429
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:37.464
Leah: So some of them are very enclosed in
that you want to use another term, own world.

430
00:25:37.624 --> 00:25:39.416
Some of them don't have speech.

431
00:25:39.560 --> 00:25:41.480
And if they want to engage with the world,

432
00:25:41.512 --> 00:25:42.456
they do need therapy.

433
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:44.096
And a lot of them are very grateful that

434
00:25:44.120 --> 00:25:46.032
they've had that therapy and can engage.

435
00:25:46.168 --> 00:25:51.752
Moshe: Right. And I'll add to that, that when
I talk about, you know, raising your child

436
00:25:51.808 --> 00:25:58.596
like they're not autistic, I'm not talking
about dealing with profound issues that will

437
00:25:58.620 --> 00:26:01.028
actually limit their ability to function at
all.

438
00:26:01.156 --> 00:26:07.824
I'm talking about, and here's another soapbox
topic, the high functioning autistic, which

439
00:26:09.124 --> 00:26:10.492
skims a little bit.

440
00:26:10.548 --> 00:26:12.588
And we're trying to get him to stop doing

441
00:26:12.636 --> 00:26:20.380
that, and he's really hung up on one thing,
and you got to get them to learn how to do

442
00:26:20.412 --> 00:26:20.988
this.

443
00:26:21.156 --> 00:26:24.820
It's the things that allow them to mask

444
00:26:24.972 --> 00:26:25.644
better.

445
00:26:25.804 --> 00:26:26.476
But then you.

446
00:26:26.540 --> 00:26:27.460
You have autistics.

447
00:26:27.492 --> 00:26:28.524
And because autism is.

448
00:26:28.564 --> 00:26:32.940
Is a global delay, you have autistics that
are.

449
00:26:33.132 --> 00:26:36.420
I don't, again, not going to use the word, but
are differently.

450
00:26:36.532 --> 00:26:36.900
That are.

451
00:26:36.932 --> 00:26:38.984
That are definitely communicative.

452
00:26:39.404 --> 00:26:44.212
And a lot of these parents are referred to
speech therapists, which isn't a bad thing,

453
00:26:44.348 --> 00:26:45.468
because if a child is.

454
00:26:45.516 --> 00:26:48.932
Is having difficulty learning how to form

455
00:26:48.988 --> 00:26:54.616
words, then there are therapies you can use to
sort of take them through the steps and maybe

456
00:26:54.680 --> 00:26:59.832
help them to communicate, and then there's
different things that they can do to allow

457
00:26:59.888 --> 00:27:01.312
them to function.

458
00:27:01.408 --> 00:27:06.552
Leah: So we lived in Canada, and a healthcare
system in Canada stinks.

459
00:27:06.728 --> 00:27:07.512
Moshe: It is.

460
00:27:07.648 --> 00:27:13.324
Leah: And Akram has what you would call an
affectation in his mouth that causes me to

461
00:27:14.424 --> 00:27:15.684
have an accent.

462
00:27:16.304 --> 00:27:16.976
So I'm gonna say.

463
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:17.624
Or lisp.

464
00:27:17.704 --> 00:27:18.744
Moshe: It's not really an accent.

465
00:27:18.784 --> 00:27:20.124
It's an affectation.

466
00:27:21.204 --> 00:27:25.532
Leah: And he did not get speech therapy in
time, so he still has that, and he'll likely

467
00:27:25.588 --> 00:27:26.852
have it forever, but.

468
00:27:26.868 --> 00:27:29.404
Moshe: It'S not nearly as bad as it used to
be.

469
00:27:29.444 --> 00:27:31.384
Leah: No, he sounds.

470
00:27:32.044 --> 00:27:32.916
How would you put it?

471
00:27:32.940 --> 00:27:37.740
He kind of sounds like a british baby or like
a boss Tony or something.

472
00:27:37.852 --> 00:27:38.504
Moshe: He.

473
00:27:39.244 --> 00:27:40.904
Leah: You'll hear him eventually.

474
00:27:44.044 --> 00:27:46.236
Moshe: When I first met him, it was very.

475
00:27:46.340 --> 00:27:47.640
It. It was very interesting.

476
00:27:47.752 --> 00:27:52.424
And as his voice has changed, it's actually
gotten a lot less significant, but it's there,

477
00:27:52.504 --> 00:27:54.584
and it's just how he talks.

478
00:27:54.744 --> 00:27:58.200
And in an effort to try and correct him, they

479
00:27:58.232 --> 00:28:02.204
wanted to make his affectation stop.

480
00:28:02.704 --> 00:28:06.896
And I guess for their efforts.

481
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:12.812
They really thought that that was something
that was important for him, but I.

482
00:28:12.828 --> 00:28:17.132
Leah: Don'T really understand why it's not to
his overall functionality.

483
00:28:17.228 --> 00:28:20.124
The only thing I could say is that he's a bit
sensitive about it.

484
00:28:20.244 --> 00:28:24.300
So if you bring it up, he will say, stop
making fun of my accent, because I can't help

485
00:28:24.332 --> 00:28:24.904
it.

486
00:28:25.244 --> 00:28:27.372
There was a point in time, he became aware of

487
00:28:27.388 --> 00:28:33.540
it probably around seven ish years old, and he
knows it's a thing, but it's just the way his

488
00:28:33.572 --> 00:28:34.524
mouth works.

489
00:28:34.644 --> 00:28:37.564
And in an attempt for them to correct his

490
00:28:37.604 --> 00:28:41.918
speech, he sort of started to sound a bit,
like, robotic.

491
00:28:42.086 --> 00:28:44.566
And I think I would just rather him sound like
himself.

492
00:28:44.630 --> 00:28:45.454
What do you think?

493
00:28:45.574 --> 00:28:48.742
Moshe: I think it's important for him to be
himself.

494
00:28:48.918 --> 00:28:54.950
And because we are living in Israel, and the
expectation is that children speak Hebrew,

495
00:28:55.062 --> 00:29:00.734
which has a whole series of other affectations
that are associated with that language.

496
00:29:00.894 --> 00:29:05.954
And we discovered that when he speaks Hebrew,
he doesn't have an affectation.

497
00:29:06.314 --> 00:29:10.834
And it's kind of interesting because for
whatever reason, we know some people from

498
00:29:10.874 --> 00:29:14.834
different parts of the world who do have
accents or affectations, that when they speak

499
00:29:14.874 --> 00:29:18.014
Hebrew, they still maintain it, which is
interesting to me.

500
00:29:18.714 --> 00:29:25.178
I am fortunate in that I have lived in
multiple regions, in multiple countries now,

501
00:29:25.346 --> 00:29:31.054
and I have adapted my vocalization to a
variety of different things.

502
00:29:31.954 --> 00:29:38.828
My grandmother, my Bubby, spent several years
in England, so she adopted a somewhat british

503
00:29:38.876 --> 00:29:44.804
affectation, not an accent so much, just, you
know, vestibule and strawberries and stuff.

504
00:29:44.844 --> 00:29:46.156
So I admired her.

505
00:29:46.180 --> 00:29:49.236
So I took that on, and I lived in Quebec, so I

506
00:29:49.260 --> 00:29:53.756
had something of a Quebecois accent for a
while, and then I lived in western Canada for

507
00:29:53.780 --> 00:29:54.276
many years.

508
00:29:54.300 --> 00:29:56.924
So I had something of a west coast californian

509
00:29:57.004 --> 00:29:57.508
thing.

510
00:29:57.636 --> 00:30:00.476
And I lived in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, for

511
00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:01.126
a while.

512
00:30:01.260 --> 00:30:02.922
So I sort of took on a little bit of the

513
00:30:02.938 --> 00:30:08.554
Atlantic Canadian, you know, broom rum roof,
you know, things like that.

514
00:30:08.674 --> 00:30:15.250
So I would say that at this point, my
different ways of pronouncing things continue

515
00:30:15.322 --> 00:30:16.386
to amuse.

516
00:30:16.570 --> 00:30:20.322
And the other thing is, unfortunately, I have

517
00:30:20.378 --> 00:30:25.934
also been told that I have a bad voice.

518
00:30:26.354 --> 00:30:29.246
And so I have been corrected in my.

519
00:30:29.290 --> 00:30:33.634
My pronunciation of things at various points
in my childhood.

520
00:30:34.094 --> 00:30:42.814
So I tend to speak a lot slower than I might
have done at one point, because it makes you

521
00:30:42.854 --> 00:30:46.990
amazing at customer service, because I do
things fast.

522
00:30:47.102 --> 00:30:50.078
I walk fast, I eat fast, I drink fast, I run.

523
00:30:50.206 --> 00:30:51.714
I'm always moving fast.

524
00:30:52.014 --> 00:31:00.136
So what I've been told, and this actually came
from my father, is slow down and soften your

525
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:06.912
tone, because I had volume control issues and
a lot of autistics do, to my understanding,

526
00:31:07.008 --> 00:31:12.400
where I would basically speak everything at a
very high volume because I was expressing

527
00:31:12.432 --> 00:31:12.736
myself.

528
00:31:12.800 --> 00:31:14.016
I was passionate about it.

529
00:31:14.080 --> 00:31:18.024
And if you're passionate about something, what
you really want to do is yell in somebody's

530
00:31:18.064 --> 00:31:21.216
face as loud as you can so they can hear the
excitement in your voice.

531
00:31:21.320 --> 00:31:24.656
Leah: You want to talk about another
misunderstanding, try to explain that to

532
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:25.406
somebody.

533
00:31:25.560 --> 00:31:28.626
Ma'am, why is your large husband yelling in

534
00:31:28.650 --> 00:31:30.850
your face?
So he's not.

535
00:31:31.002 --> 00:31:35.770
Moshe: It took me years for people to be like,
calm down, calm down.

536
00:31:35.882 --> 00:31:38.026
And so now I feel like, I don't know.

537
00:31:38.050 --> 00:31:39.094
You can tell me.

538
00:31:39.394 --> 00:31:43.694
And there's going to be editing software
because it's very quiet and I'm a lot louder,

539
00:31:44.114 --> 00:31:44.874
but my.

540
00:31:44.954 --> 00:31:48.282
My voice has sort of become a lot more even

541
00:31:48.338 --> 00:31:49.314
toned, I guess.

542
00:31:49.474 --> 00:31:51.562
Leah: Yeah, I think you have an amazing voice,
actually.

543
00:31:51.658 --> 00:31:52.266
Thank you.

544
00:31:52.370 --> 00:31:55.258
So going back to the topic then, having said

545
00:31:55.306 --> 00:31:59.306
all that and all the difficulties that it
causes, you know, the neurotypical parties and

546
00:31:59.330 --> 00:32:04.746
their discomforting feelings and the autistic
parties in not understanding why people around

547
00:32:04.770 --> 00:32:07.850
them don't like them or don't want to be
around, et cetera.

548
00:32:08.042 --> 00:32:12.586
Do you think that unmasking could help?
So I'm going to call back to the example you

549
00:32:12.610 --> 00:32:14.938
gave the woman that you worked with.

550
00:32:15.066 --> 00:32:17.082
If she said, I'm not sure why you creep me

551
00:32:17.098 --> 00:32:17.906
out, but you creep me out.

552
00:32:17.930 --> 00:32:20.396
And you could have said, I apologize, but it's

553
00:32:20.420 --> 00:32:24.556
because I'm autistic, and I can't always mask
what my face is doing.

554
00:32:24.660 --> 00:32:26.428
Do you think that would have helped the
situation?

555
00:32:26.596 --> 00:32:27.784
Moshe: Probably not.

556
00:32:28.084 --> 00:32:34.004
But she was russian, and so much like many

557
00:32:34.044 --> 00:32:39.780
Israelis here, eastern Europeans, Russians,
Israelis, a lot of different demographic

558
00:32:39.812 --> 00:32:41.212
groups tend to be much more.

559
00:32:41.308 --> 00:32:44.100
A lot of asian groups, they tend to be much

560
00:32:44.132 --> 00:32:45.602
more blunt in their speech.

561
00:32:45.748 --> 00:32:48.766
Americanized and canadianized social skills

562
00:32:48.870 --> 00:32:54.214
are very reserved, very shy, very constructed,
very sanitized.

563
00:32:54.294 --> 00:32:57.646
Leah: Yes, in Jerusalem, we've already heard
the r word multiple times.

564
00:32:57.710 --> 00:32:58.982
They still use it here.

565
00:32:59.118 --> 00:32:59.982
Moshe: And it's my word.

566
00:33:00.038 --> 00:33:01.014
Leah: They don't need a fence.

567
00:33:01.134 --> 00:33:03.846
Moshe: No, but I mean, this is exactly the
point.

568
00:33:04.030 --> 00:33:10.634
And I said it in the first episode, and I'll
say it again, because when I was growing up

569
00:33:10.954 --> 00:33:16.994
back in way, way back in the 1980s and
nineties, we didn't really have a very good

570
00:33:17.034 --> 00:33:18.570
understanding of neurodivergency.

571
00:33:18.602 --> 00:33:20.002
We certainly might not have called it

572
00:33:20.018 --> 00:33:21.282
neurodivergency.

573
00:33:21.458 --> 00:33:23.586
So when people asked me what was wrong with

574
00:33:23.610 --> 00:33:29.090
me, they would assume that I was retarded,
because that doesn't necessarily now it's

575
00:33:29.122 --> 00:33:34.234
actually a very pejorative term for mentally
challenged or mentally delayed.

576
00:33:34.274 --> 00:33:34.634
Delayed.

577
00:33:34.674 --> 00:33:35.290
Leah: Intellectual.

578
00:33:35.362 --> 00:33:37.628
Moshe: Intellectual delay is, I guess, the
term name.

579
00:33:37.746 --> 00:33:44.936
But retarded was sort of the catch all term
for anyone who expresses or projects

580
00:33:44.960 --> 00:33:46.264
themselves in a different way.

581
00:33:46.384 --> 00:33:50.344
Leah: If you look it up, it literally means
slow.

582
00:33:50.464 --> 00:33:51.872
Slow or delayed.

583
00:33:51.968 --> 00:33:55.364
Yeah, it's gotten a really, really bad rap

584
00:33:55.864 --> 00:33:58.664
because of the way it's been used as an
abusive.

585
00:33:58.824 --> 00:33:59.408
Moshe: And it is.

586
00:33:59.456 --> 00:34:03.680
And there's very few instances where, unless

587
00:34:03.792 --> 00:34:09.120
you're referring to someone in French being
late, that you can use the word ****** or

588
00:34:09.152 --> 00:34:10.632
retarded in a positive way.

589
00:34:10.688 --> 00:34:11.688
Leah: I clean that up.

590
00:34:11.816 --> 00:34:12.488
Moshe: Right.

591
00:34:12.656 --> 00:34:14.072
But it's my word, and I'm.

592
00:34:14.128 --> 00:34:15.488
And I'm going to use it.

593
00:34:15.616 --> 00:34:18.072
And if you have an issue with me using it,

594
00:34:18.168 --> 00:34:19.992
then absolutely let me know.

595
00:34:20.128 --> 00:34:21.792
But again, as I said in the very first

596
00:34:21.848 --> 00:34:29.644
episode, way, way, two episodes ago, it's a
word that I've had to adapt for myself because

597
00:34:31.224 --> 00:34:34.154
one of the common catchphrases that I would.

598
00:34:34.224 --> 00:34:36.582
That I came up with for telling people what I

599
00:34:36.598 --> 00:34:36.798
was.

600
00:34:36.846 --> 00:34:38.454
Cause they were like, are you retarded?

601
00:34:38.614 --> 00:34:42.142
And I started telling people, no, I'm not
retarded.

602
00:34:42.278 --> 00:34:43.454
I'm autistic.

603
00:34:43.614 --> 00:34:45.510
And they were like, ooh, you can't use that

604
00:34:45.542 --> 00:34:45.926
word.

605
00:34:46.030 --> 00:34:47.982
So now I'm gonna put it on a t shirt.

606
00:34:48.118 --> 00:34:54.078
And I don't know that anyone would ever
actually print it, but it's very important.

607
00:34:54.166 --> 00:34:57.054
And I taught it to Avram back in Canada.

608
00:34:57.174 --> 00:34:58.958
Leah: He also used to say, I'm autistic.

609
00:34:59.006 --> 00:35:00.360
I'm not the r word.

610
00:35:00.542 --> 00:35:06.804
But then for us to come here and be in his
meeting for school and for them to ask us

611
00:35:06.844 --> 00:35:10.624
questions, and one of the questions was, he's
not our, is he?

612
00:35:11.044 --> 00:35:14.260
And I went, what planet are we on?

613
00:35:14.452 --> 00:35:17.252
Moshe: Because it's a different way of life.

614
00:35:17.348 --> 00:35:21.036
Anyway, that is to say that if you are

615
00:35:21.220 --> 00:35:24.224
autistic, then you can.

616
00:35:24.804 --> 00:35:27.072
I would be able to say at this point, given.

617
00:35:27.188 --> 00:35:32.960
Given my recent experience and not so recent
experience, that if I had to pick between

618
00:35:33.072 --> 00:35:39.040
teaching your child how to function like a
human, and, again, don't mean that autistic

619
00:35:39.072 --> 00:35:45.056
people aren't humans, but try to function in a
way that doesn't project your disability or

620
00:35:45.080 --> 00:35:49.616
your different abil, I don't know what you
want to call to the forefront or to teach them

621
00:35:49.640 --> 00:35:56.232
to just accept and love and operate, because,
again, I just want to say, for the record,

622
00:35:56.408 --> 00:36:03.000
that I am not saying, and Leah is not saying
that if your child or your partner or your

623
00:36:03.032 --> 00:36:09.296
friend or your spouse or whatever is autistic,
that every one of their behaviors just kind of

624
00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:11.968
has to be accepted as part of who they are.

625
00:36:12.136 --> 00:36:13.008
Absolutely not.

626
00:36:13.096 --> 00:36:16.336
Because you can still say you are autistic.

627
00:36:16.480 --> 00:36:18.736
And I understand that this behavior is because

628
00:36:18.800 --> 00:36:25.906
you're autistic, but it's still not a behavior
that I, you know, that I feel is fair or good

629
00:36:25.970 --> 00:36:26.834
or functional.

630
00:36:26.954 --> 00:36:28.146
And so we need to work on that.

631
00:36:28.170 --> 00:36:32.010
Leah: I actually think I'm going to compile a
list of things and one episode will actually

632
00:36:32.082 --> 00:36:36.514
be a game that I like to play called, you
know, Samosha being autistic, or is he just

633
00:36:36.554 --> 00:36:37.450
being on end?

634
00:36:37.642 --> 00:36:43.242
Moshe: Because what Leah and I like to say is
autism is, is not a, an obstacle.

635
00:36:43.378 --> 00:36:44.890
It is not a barrier.

636
00:36:44.922 --> 00:36:46.154
Sorry, it's a barrier.

637
00:36:46.194 --> 00:36:48.564
It's not a, no, it's not a barrier.

638
00:36:48.604 --> 00:36:49.532
It's an obstacle.

639
00:36:49.628 --> 00:36:51.412
It's something that you have to overcome.

640
00:36:51.508 --> 00:36:54.740
But it doesn't mean that someone just is that

641
00:36:54.772 --> 00:36:54.964
way.

642
00:36:55.004 --> 00:36:57.676
They're just naturally arrogant, naturally

643
00:36:57.740 --> 00:37:01.828
selfish, naturally don't care about other
people, naturally have no empathy, naturally

644
00:37:01.876 --> 00:37:08.420
treat others with disrespect, naturally, you
know, operate in a way that is just who they

645
00:37:08.452 --> 00:37:08.644
are.

646
00:37:08.684 --> 00:37:10.012
That's just what happens.

647
00:37:10.108 --> 00:37:14.578
Leah: There are certain things that are autism
and certain things that are personality.

648
00:37:14.756 --> 00:37:19.902
And separating the two is sometimes difficult,
but what I've always said to Moshe is, it is

649
00:37:19.998 --> 00:37:22.334
harder for you, but it is not impossible.

650
00:37:22.414 --> 00:37:22.886
Moshe: Exactly.

651
00:37:22.950 --> 00:37:25.110
Leah: This topic is very important to me.

652
00:37:25.142 --> 00:37:27.126
So we're going to talk about it again and

653
00:37:27.150 --> 00:37:28.358
we're going to work on.

654
00:37:28.526 --> 00:37:33.246
Moshe: And this has been the long term work
that Leah and I put into our relationship.

655
00:37:33.390 --> 00:37:38.518
And again, to be fair, it's as much about how
I relate to her as it is about how she relates

656
00:37:38.566 --> 00:37:39.270
to me.

657
00:37:39.422 --> 00:37:41.494
And that's a whole other different topic.

658
00:37:41.534 --> 00:37:43.154
But back to the original question.

659
00:37:43.504 --> 00:37:46.704
Some people will look at somebody who is very

660
00:37:46.784 --> 00:37:51.600
clearly autistic, or they'll ask them, but why
are you behaving that way?

661
00:37:51.712 --> 00:37:53.848
And then you'll go, I'm autistic.

662
00:37:54.016 --> 00:37:56.304
And they'll be like, oh, okay, that makes

663
00:37:56.344 --> 00:37:57.024
sense now.

664
00:37:57.144 --> 00:37:58.984
I'm sorry, I was wondering.

665
00:37:59.024 --> 00:38:00.600
Or they'll go, you know what?
I don't care.

666
00:38:00.632 --> 00:38:02.128
I still don't like that behavior.

667
00:38:02.296 --> 00:38:04.488
And that's just something you kind of have to

668
00:38:04.576 --> 00:38:05.416
learn to deal with.

669
00:38:05.480 --> 00:38:07.528
Leah: So that is your experience, in your
opinion?

670
00:38:07.616 --> 00:38:12.100
Doing my research again on the Internet, the
majority of people do think that unmasking and

671
00:38:12.132 --> 00:38:15.020
autism will help a lot with this universally.

672
00:38:15.092 --> 00:38:15.984
Moshe: Absolutely.

673
00:38:16.404 --> 00:38:19.116
Leah: A lot of people, they really are nice
and they will understand.

674
00:38:19.220 --> 00:38:21.476
It's just that they don't know crayons.

675
00:38:21.540 --> 00:38:23.092
They don't have a file in their brain that

676
00:38:23.108 --> 00:38:26.852
tells them what to do when some of these
facial muscles all go slack in there, you

677
00:38:26.868 --> 00:38:27.236
know.

678
00:38:27.340 --> 00:38:27.984
Moshe: Right.

679
00:38:28.284 --> 00:38:32.012
Leah: So it's a learning opportunity for them
as well.

680
00:38:32.188 --> 00:38:32.764
Moshe: Right.

681
00:38:32.884 --> 00:38:37.418
Leah: So this would be a really good time for
us to turn the table, actually, and say,

682
00:38:37.506 --> 00:38:43.930
moshe, do I creep you out?
Do autistics actually experience the uncanny

683
00:38:43.962 --> 00:38:44.442
valley?

684
00:38:44.538 --> 00:38:48.282
Moshe: And the answer is, we do somewhat and
not in the same way.

685
00:38:48.338 --> 00:38:52.266
And again, I just want to preface this, as I
always do, with saying that this is the

686
00:38:52.290 --> 00:38:53.530
experience of one autistic.

687
00:38:53.562 --> 00:38:59.202
And it may not reflect on everyone else, but

688
00:38:59.258 --> 00:39:07.976
autistic people have been observed in various
studies where their discomfort may even be the

689
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:15.152
reverse of uncanny Valley, where they'll find
it more comfortable for people that are less

690
00:39:15.208 --> 00:39:17.872
human looking than more human looking.

691
00:39:18.048 --> 00:39:20.072
And I think they refer to it as, like, the

692
00:39:20.088 --> 00:39:22.864
uncanny cliff or the uncanny hill.

693
00:39:22.944 --> 00:39:23.784
Leah: It's a drop off.

694
00:39:23.824 --> 00:39:24.960
Yeah, absolutely.

695
00:39:25.112 --> 00:39:28.384
Moshe: And that is the one aspect of it.

696
00:39:28.504 --> 00:39:31.996
The other aspect of it is that autistic people

697
00:39:32.100 --> 00:39:37.180
will not traditionally be creeped out in the
same way as neurotypicals.

698
00:39:37.332 --> 00:39:44.012
Again, just experience based on research and
my own experience, because we don't have, or

699
00:39:44.028 --> 00:39:48.780
at least we're not born with the innate
concept that certain things should make us

700
00:39:48.812 --> 00:39:49.852
uncomfortable.

701
00:39:50.028 --> 00:39:54.276
So if a situation is scary or a person is

702
00:39:54.300 --> 00:39:59.800
meant to be creepy, or there's a zombie or a
monster on the screen, if you have an autistic

703
00:39:59.832 --> 00:40:03.800
child, the autistic child will offer very
little reaction.

704
00:40:03.832 --> 00:40:08.296
Or they might actually laugh at it because
they're so silly looking, but they won't have

705
00:40:08.400 --> 00:40:13.760
the innate concept that this kind of person is
looking that way in order to be creepy.

706
00:40:13.832 --> 00:40:14.040
Leah: Right.

707
00:40:14.072 --> 00:40:15.720
And we actually talked about this this

708
00:40:15.752 --> 00:40:16.152
afternoon.

709
00:40:16.208 --> 00:40:18.480
We came up with this theory on our own, right.

710
00:40:18.552 --> 00:40:24.558
Is that autistic people in general seem to
have less of a concern about their own safety.

711
00:40:24.646 --> 00:40:24.870
Moshe: Correct.

712
00:40:24.902 --> 00:40:26.366
Leah: That's not every autistic.

713
00:40:26.470 --> 00:40:29.726
Obviously, Avram has that issue.

714
00:40:29.790 --> 00:40:30.574
So he.

715
00:40:30.734 --> 00:40:33.998
Where danger is really a concept, preservation

716
00:40:34.046 --> 00:40:38.194
of one's life is not something that you wish
you're processing tower off.

717
00:40:38.654 --> 00:40:45.318
So it may actually prevent the uncanny valley,
because they're typicals like me.

718
00:40:45.366 --> 00:40:51.022
And many of you out there are sort of born
with the genes of our ancestors, where if we

719
00:40:51.038 --> 00:40:56.086
were sitting by the campfire and we saw creepy
eyes in the woods, that was actual danger to

720
00:40:56.110 --> 00:40:56.990
our lives.

721
00:40:57.182 --> 00:41:00.542
So that could be where this reaction comes

722
00:41:00.598 --> 00:41:01.246
from.

723
00:41:01.430 --> 00:41:04.054
Whereas autistics seem to sort of be missing

724
00:41:04.094 --> 00:41:04.678
that.

725
00:41:04.846 --> 00:41:09.566
Moshe: Yes. A lot of autistic people,
particularly autistic parents of autistic

726
00:41:09.590 --> 00:41:12.974
people, have noted that their child seemed to
lack fear response.

727
00:41:13.014 --> 00:41:15.490
It had to be explained to them.

728
00:41:15.622 --> 00:41:19.946
And trying to explain to someone why they

729
00:41:19.970 --> 00:41:24.250
should be afraid of certain things seems
almost counterproductive.

730
00:41:24.282 --> 00:41:27.610
It's like inserting negativity into a person's
positive outlook.

731
00:41:27.762 --> 00:41:35.874
And I found it very fascinating, actually,
because autism is a very difficult concept to

732
00:41:35.914 --> 00:41:36.774
nail them.

733
00:41:37.354 --> 00:41:39.586
And again, if you've ever tried to look up the

734
00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:43.898
question, what is autism?
You get millions and millions of different

735
00:41:43.946 --> 00:41:47.682
studies and hits and references, and it could
be this or it could be that or it could be

736
00:41:47.698 --> 00:41:48.498
this or that.

737
00:41:48.586 --> 00:41:50.410
So it's really not something that people have

738
00:41:50.442 --> 00:41:51.938
spent a lot of time studying.

739
00:41:52.066 --> 00:41:54.458
So I do what I always do.

740
00:41:54.586 --> 00:41:59.210
And I said, okay, well, what's something
that's like autism, that might be better at

741
00:41:59.242 --> 00:42:01.890
defining it?
So I did a lot of research on something called

742
00:42:01.922 --> 00:42:02.674
Williams syndrome.

743
00:42:02.714 --> 00:42:04.026
And you can actually look that up.

744
00:42:04.050 --> 00:42:06.666
It's a genetic, we'll call it disorder.

745
00:42:06.850 --> 00:42:09.924
And a lot of the symptoms of Williams syndrome

746
00:42:10.074 --> 00:42:13.304
are very similar or even identical to autism.

747
00:42:13.344 --> 00:42:16.128
And in fact, in a bit of a double whammy, a

748
00:42:16.136 --> 00:42:19.144
lot of people with alien syndrome are also
diagnosed with autism.

749
00:42:19.304 --> 00:42:22.352
So I'm not even sure how that goes, but it is
out there.

750
00:42:22.488 --> 00:42:25.488
And the characteristics that the DSM six.

751
00:42:25.536 --> 00:42:26.968
Leah: Is going to look very different.

752
00:42:27.056 --> 00:42:32.168
Moshe: Stay tuned, folks, because people have
the piecemeal disorders, and they interviewed

753
00:42:32.216 --> 00:42:38.054
people with Williams syndrome and Williams
syndrome children and adults, because it's

754
00:42:38.094 --> 00:42:43.598
fortunately not one of those disabilities that
actually reduces your lifespan or causes any

755
00:42:43.686 --> 00:42:45.790
serious health issues.

756
00:42:45.942 --> 00:42:47.638
I don't believe, and again, if I'm wrong,

757
00:42:47.686 --> 00:42:48.686
please let me know.

758
00:42:48.830 --> 00:42:52.902
But it also comes with a complete absence of

759
00:42:52.958 --> 00:42:58.614
fear, a complete absence of suspicion, and a
complete absence of wariness and a complete

760
00:42:58.654 --> 00:43:06.094
absence of the ability to see someone or
something as a threat.

761
00:43:06.474 --> 00:43:09.730
And there have been instances where children
with Williams syndrome, much like autistic

762
00:43:09.762 --> 00:43:15.882
children, will just run into traffic, not
because they're concerned, even if they see

763
00:43:15.898 --> 00:43:18.426
the car coming, they'll be like, oh, I want to
go there.

764
00:43:18.450 --> 00:43:19.394
It's right across the street.

765
00:43:19.474 --> 00:43:20.978
Leah: That's why I had Avraham on a leash.

766
00:43:21.026 --> 00:43:22.594
And if you have a problem with that, you can

767
00:43:22.634 --> 00:43:23.854
certainly write to me.

768
00:43:24.434 --> 00:43:25.906
Moshe: And this is the idea.

769
00:43:26.010 --> 00:43:28.316
And they talk to people with Williams syndrome

770
00:43:28.340 --> 00:43:31.564
because their speech is oftentimes very
articulate.

771
00:43:31.604 --> 00:43:33.228
They're very, very articulate.

772
00:43:33.356 --> 00:43:35.428
And a lot of them, they're still not sure why,

773
00:43:35.476 --> 00:43:38.900
but a lot of them have enhanced auditory
sensations.

774
00:43:38.972 --> 00:43:42.364
So they're able to, they're very musically
inclined, a lot of them.

775
00:43:42.524 --> 00:43:48.900
And they talked to them and they said, why
don't you feel like, why are you concerned?

776
00:43:48.972 --> 00:43:53.728
Like, why aren't you concerned that these
things might hurt you?

777
00:43:53.916 --> 00:43:59.416
And it's just, it's a complete absence of the
ability to conceive.

778
00:43:59.600 --> 00:44:05.968
A lot of times that a person would be harmful.

779
00:44:06.136 --> 00:44:08.424
So they'll go up to complete strangers and hug

780
00:44:08.464 --> 00:44:15.856
them and tell them their whole life story
because they lack the ability to understand

781
00:44:16.040 --> 00:44:20.084
that this person who they don't know from
nobody, might be a threat to them.

782
00:44:20.404 --> 00:44:26.452
And it's kind of sad because you have to tell
this child, this adult, even, who has

783
00:44:26.508 --> 00:44:33.228
basically kept in a state of innocence, that
they have to be afraid when they have no

784
00:44:33.276 --> 00:44:35.340
concept of what fear even is.

785
00:44:35.492 --> 00:44:38.588
But fear is actually a very positive thing.

786
00:44:38.756 --> 00:44:44.492
We have these instincts in our subconscious to
help us, to protect us.

787
00:44:44.588 --> 00:44:48.458
If we see a fire, we don't go walking into the
fire because we know it's going to burn us.

788
00:44:48.556 --> 00:44:52.526
If we see a man standing there holding a giant
machete, we go, you know what?

789
00:44:52.550 --> 00:44:57.166
I think that guy with the hockey mask and the
machete might intend to harm me.

790
00:44:57.350 --> 00:45:01.726
Whereas person with autism with Williams
syndrome might be like, wow, that guy is kind

791
00:45:01.750 --> 00:45:02.094
of cool.

792
00:45:02.134 --> 00:45:02.862
I wonder what he's up to.

793
00:45:02.878 --> 00:45:04.566
Leah: What are you doing?
Exactly.

794
00:45:04.670 --> 00:45:08.230
Moshe: Because they don't have the ability to
understand that that person might be a threat

795
00:45:08.262 --> 00:45:08.550
to them.

796
00:45:08.582 --> 00:45:09.750
Leah: Exactly.

797
00:45:09.942 --> 00:45:11.558
And this brought up a whole other thing

798
00:45:11.606 --> 00:45:13.086
because, you know, that I'm a giant nerd.

799
00:45:13.110 --> 00:45:15.086
And we might explore this more in another

800
00:45:15.150 --> 00:45:15.712
episode.

801
00:45:15.798 --> 00:45:16.140
Moshe: Right.

802
00:45:16.212 --> 00:45:22.740
Leah: But in terms of why, if you subscribe to
Darwinism, why nature hasn't actually selected

803
00:45:22.812 --> 00:45:25.584
against autism at this point.

804
00:45:26.044 --> 00:45:29.716
Moshe: Yeah. So Darwinism is a really good
theory.

805
00:45:29.900 --> 00:45:36.068
And of course, we are orthodox Jews, so it's
very much part and parcel of what we believe

806
00:45:36.156 --> 00:45:39.428
anyway, because Judaism definitely does accept
science.

807
00:45:39.516 --> 00:45:41.738
So the idea of evolution and.

808
00:45:41.836 --> 00:45:44.990
And evolved evolution based on the strongest

809
00:45:45.022 --> 00:45:49.798
characteristics of each individual person or
thing or animal or what have you, is there.

810
00:45:49.926 --> 00:45:53.174
Our whole book is about that and the reality.

811
00:45:53.254 --> 00:45:53.670
Exactly.

812
00:45:53.702 --> 00:45:55.062
And the reality of the situation.

813
00:45:55.158 --> 00:45:56.118
Leah: We were better than them.

814
00:45:56.166 --> 00:45:56.998
We smashed.

815
00:45:57.126 --> 00:45:58.990
That's the whole fight books, is that.

816
00:45:59.022 --> 00:46:01.902
Moshe: Darwinism is not bad.

817
00:46:01.958 --> 00:46:03.806
And again, I don't want the soundbite from

818
00:46:03.830 --> 00:46:08.062
this episode to be Moshe and Leah talk about
the fallacy of Darwinism.

819
00:46:08.118 --> 00:46:09.350
No, no, that's not what we're saying.

820
00:46:09.382 --> 00:46:13.118
Darwinism is actually a very valid concept,

821
00:46:13.166 --> 00:46:20.446
but what we're saying is that maybe the
fittest amongst us is not necessarily the

822
00:46:20.470 --> 00:46:21.070
goal.

823
00:46:21.222 --> 00:46:21.854
Maybe.

824
00:46:21.974 --> 00:46:22.326
Leah: Right.

825
00:46:22.390 --> 00:46:24.918
So that's a very confusing thing to me because

826
00:46:24.966 --> 00:46:29.782
you would think, theoretically, that a person
who has no care for their safety and a very

827
00:46:29.878 --> 00:46:36.494
limited ability to care for themselves would
have been selected against back in the days of

828
00:46:36.534 --> 00:46:37.170
cavemen.

829
00:46:37.262 --> 00:46:37.826
Moshe: Right.

830
00:46:37.970 --> 00:46:42.074
Leah: And I have some interesting ideas as to
why that hasn't happened, but you know what?

831
00:46:42.114 --> 00:46:46.094
That might actually be a good topic for
putting content.

832
00:46:46.514 --> 00:46:47.410
Moshe: It would be.

833
00:46:47.522 --> 00:46:50.774
We can, we can discuss the, the nature of

834
00:46:51.194 --> 00:46:57.890
Darwinism as it relates to neurodivergency and
why Darwinism does not disqualify

835
00:46:57.962 --> 00:47:00.282
neurodivergency, and some theories behind
that.

836
00:47:00.418 --> 00:47:06.528
But essentially, when you have a community, if
you're individuals, then obviously the person

837
00:47:06.576 --> 00:47:11.816
who can run the fastest and live the longest
and put up with the most harsh conditions are

838
00:47:11.840 --> 00:47:12.864
going to be in demand.

839
00:47:13.024 --> 00:47:15.416
But when you settle down and start building

840
00:47:15.480 --> 00:47:19.784
communities and you have a multitude of
different people who are all differently able,

841
00:47:19.944 --> 00:47:25.368
then you can look at your population and go,
you know what?

842
00:47:25.496 --> 00:47:28.836
We have x number of people over there doing
all the heavy lifting.

843
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:34.268
These people seem to struggle with social
concepts, but they're real good at figuring

844
00:47:34.316 --> 00:47:35.104
out things.

845
00:47:35.444 --> 00:47:37.484
Maybe, maybe we should put them to work on

846
00:47:37.524 --> 00:47:37.964
that.

847
00:47:38.084 --> 00:47:41.340
And you guys, with the clubs and the spears,

848
00:47:41.452 --> 00:47:47.572
you can keep them safe so that they can do
their job, and in turn they will design better

849
00:47:47.628 --> 00:47:49.308
spears for you or something like that.

850
00:47:49.356 --> 00:47:53.340
Leah: That's essentially, yes, what happened
or what I think happened.

851
00:47:53.372 --> 00:47:57.896
And so I don't know what this episode is.

852
00:47:57.920 --> 00:48:00.000
It comments definitely hasn't stuck to the

853
00:48:00.032 --> 00:48:00.696
topic.

854
00:48:00.840 --> 00:48:02.592
I do have a couple of more things that I

855
00:48:02.608 --> 00:48:03.604
wanted to cover.

856
00:48:04.104 --> 00:48:07.080
Do autistics and non autistics fall into each

857
00:48:07.112 --> 00:48:10.840
other's uncanny value?
Now I have something personally to say about

858
00:48:10.872 --> 00:48:11.424
this.

859
00:48:11.584 --> 00:48:14.200
Moshe, in any of his incarnations as a child,

860
00:48:14.272 --> 00:48:19.604
as a teenager, as an adult, has never creeped
me out, ever.

861
00:48:20.244 --> 00:48:25.180
However, clowns make me cringe.

862
00:48:25.252 --> 00:48:26.252
I will run away.

863
00:48:26.348 --> 00:48:27.704
I will smack them.

864
00:48:28.044 --> 00:48:30.660
So try to explain that to me.

865
00:48:30.772 --> 00:48:32.516
Moshe: I can't explain that to you.

866
00:48:32.700 --> 00:48:39.236
It's just phobias is outside of my price, is

867
00:48:39.260 --> 00:48:40.612
outside of my pay range.

868
00:48:40.668 --> 00:48:42.212
Leah: The phobia of clowns.

869
00:48:42.348 --> 00:48:43.892
It's known as clover phobia.

870
00:48:43.948 --> 00:48:45.944
It's very popular phobia, yes.

871
00:48:45.984 --> 00:48:48.200
And I believe it's actually based in the

872
00:48:48.232 --> 00:48:50.824
uncanny Valley characteristic.

873
00:48:50.944 --> 00:48:52.044
Moshe: It actually is.

874
00:48:52.344 --> 00:48:54.600
And it's a very, it's.

875
00:48:54.712 --> 00:48:56.664
I mean, it's a very common phobia.

876
00:48:56.824 --> 00:48:59.464
And it does actually fall, at least I believe

877
00:48:59.504 --> 00:49:04.480
that it does, in the same category of why
people are creeped out in certain respects by

878
00:49:04.512 --> 00:49:07.936
autistics who are masking because they're
acting in a way that's human, but also not

879
00:49:07.960 --> 00:49:08.360
quote.

880
00:49:08.432 --> 00:49:09.752
Leah: People find this very funny.

881
00:49:09.808 --> 00:49:11.656
I'm warning you now, don't email me pictures

882
00:49:11.680 --> 00:49:12.606
of clowns.

883
00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:14.586
Don't send me clowns.

884
00:49:14.770 --> 00:49:15.314
Don't.

885
00:49:15.394 --> 00:49:16.010
Don't.

886
00:49:16.122 --> 00:49:24.454
Moshe: But the uncanny Valley effect for
autistics is a difficult concept to express

887
00:49:24.834 --> 00:49:30.754
because when you're autistic and you're
finding it difficult to social with someone,

888
00:49:30.914 --> 00:49:37.554
it actually makes you more comforted by
somebody who is less traditionally focused or

889
00:49:37.634 --> 00:49:43.580
looking rather, but they don't fit the model
of what you have come to feel is threatening

890
00:49:43.612 --> 00:49:44.164
to you.

891
00:49:44.284 --> 00:49:47.276
So, for example, somebody who.

892
00:49:47.460 --> 00:49:50.464
I don't know, I want to use a really extreme
example.

893
00:49:51.324 --> 00:49:51.732
Leah: Great.

894
00:49:51.788 --> 00:49:53.516
Something new and different for you.

895
00:49:53.700 --> 00:49:58.092
Moshe: Yes. So let's say I was talking to
somebody who had their eyes gouged out.

896
00:49:58.148 --> 00:49:59.084
Leah: I get bald.

897
00:49:59.244 --> 00:50:00.956
Moshe: I wouldn't find that very creepy.

898
00:50:01.020 --> 00:50:01.784
Leah: I would.

899
00:50:02.084 --> 00:50:07.588
Moshe: Because to me, the eyes are one of the
things that autistic people often struggle to

900
00:50:07.676 --> 00:50:08.420
relate to.

901
00:50:08.532 --> 00:50:10.212
And in fact, I'll tell a really quick story

902
00:50:10.268 --> 00:50:12.064
because we're running low on time.

903
00:50:12.764 --> 00:50:16.292
I again called into the human resources office

904
00:50:16.428 --> 00:50:22.452
because one of the supervisors, one of my
employers, said that I was leering at her.

905
00:50:22.628 --> 00:50:27.540
And I was called into the office and the human
resources manager talked to me and said, okay,

906
00:50:27.572 --> 00:50:33.092
so the complaint is that he is looking at me,
and then he'll look away, and then he'll look

907
00:50:33.108 --> 00:50:35.348
at me, and then he'll look away, and then
he'll look at me.

908
00:50:35.476 --> 00:50:38.876
And based on that, I was apparently scanning
her body up and down.

909
00:50:39.060 --> 00:50:44.584
So he talked to me and he asked me what
happened and what I think was happening.

910
00:50:44.964 --> 00:50:49.492
And he looked at me and he saw that my eyes
would look at him and then look away and then

911
00:50:49.508 --> 00:50:50.444
look at him and then look away.

912
00:50:50.484 --> 00:50:51.932
And he said, you know what?

913
00:50:51.988 --> 00:50:53.556
I already know what's happened here.

914
00:50:53.660 --> 00:50:54.180
You can go.

915
00:50:54.212 --> 00:50:55.064
There's nothing.

916
00:50:56.004 --> 00:50:57.228
I'm going to dismiss this.

917
00:50:57.316 --> 00:50:58.828
And I didn't know why at the time.

918
00:50:58.916 --> 00:51:01.388
I thought, oh, cool, so I'm free to go then.

919
00:51:01.436 --> 00:51:06.020
Great and easy going to maybe stay away from
her if that's how she feels.

920
00:51:06.172 --> 00:51:09.124
Leah: Some people are so full of themselves
and that.

921
00:51:09.164 --> 00:51:11.316
Moshe: And that is essentially what it really
came down to.

922
00:51:11.340 --> 00:51:18.940
But if somebody had a difficulty, if someone's
blind, I find it a lot easier to look at them

923
00:51:19.092 --> 00:51:21.204
than if someone is.

924
00:51:21.324 --> 00:51:23.276
We'll say a regular psych when we're.

925
00:51:23.300 --> 00:51:25.828
Leah: Talking about communication again in the
next episode.

926
00:51:25.876 --> 00:51:28.658
We're going to delve deeply into eye contact,
actually.

927
00:51:28.836 --> 00:51:34.430
Moshe: And a lot of the things that make it
hard for me to look at people or relate to

928
00:51:34.462 --> 00:51:38.742
people are what anyone would consider to be
normal.

929
00:51:38.838 --> 00:51:45.878
But then to top it off, and sort of one of our
final statements, what I find creepy is

930
00:51:45.966 --> 00:51:53.310
anything that goes away from the concept of
what I determine is a standard function of the

931
00:51:53.342 --> 00:51:54.322
human body.

932
00:51:54.518 --> 00:51:57.506
So tattoos creep me out, piercings creep me

933
00:51:57.530 --> 00:52:04.082
out, plastic surgery creeps me out, because in
my mind, I have learned, either consciously or

934
00:52:04.098 --> 00:52:06.378
unconsciously, the way a person is supposed to
look.

935
00:52:06.506 --> 00:52:11.626
And anything that goes outside of that norm
makeup, believe it or not, I don't wear

936
00:52:11.650 --> 00:52:16.802
makeup, makes me uncomfortable because
anything that alters a person's appearance

937
00:52:16.938 --> 00:52:19.906
beyond what my concept of their appearance
should be.

938
00:52:20.050 --> 00:52:24.842
And again, that can come across as very
controlling.

939
00:52:25.018 --> 00:52:27.050
And it's been pointed out to me.

940
00:52:27.122 --> 00:52:30.882
Leah: I would like to say I don't wear makeup
anymore, and that was my choice because it

941
00:52:30.898 --> 00:52:31.946
made him uncomfortable.

942
00:52:32.010 --> 00:52:34.106
He didn't demand that, but it's very.

943
00:52:34.170 --> 00:52:35.458
Moshe: Simple for that to go well.

944
00:52:35.546 --> 00:52:36.962
You know, he's trying to control me.

945
00:52:36.978 --> 00:52:38.410
He doesn't want me to wear makeup.

946
00:52:38.562 --> 00:52:41.138
Actually, it's a lot sadder than that.

947
00:52:41.186 --> 00:52:46.300
It's that I have struggled to relate to
people, as many autistics have.

948
00:52:46.442 --> 00:52:52.352
And my way of relating to them is to
essentially picture them in a certain way.

949
00:52:52.528 --> 00:53:01.008
And if they don't exactly match that concept
of how they're supposed to look, then I find

950
00:53:01.056 --> 00:53:03.084
that makes me very uncomfortable.

951
00:53:04.064 --> 00:53:06.696
But it has to be subtle, and that's the

952
00:53:06.720 --> 00:53:07.056
difference.

953
00:53:07.120 --> 00:53:08.256
It has to be subtle.

954
00:53:08.360 --> 00:53:14.106
It has to be, I have a tattoo or I have a
particular, you know.

955
00:53:14.250 --> 00:53:17.074
You know, I had hair growing out of my nose.

956
00:53:17.154 --> 00:53:18.322
Leah: The hair and the nose got.

957
00:53:18.378 --> 00:53:21.034
We were both uncanny galley by him, right?

958
00:53:21.114 --> 00:53:21.850
We discussed that.

959
00:53:21.882 --> 00:53:22.850
So there was a man.

960
00:53:22.922 --> 00:53:23.946
He was a very nice man.

961
00:53:23.970 --> 00:53:26.610
He was checking our groceries for us, and he

962
00:53:26.642 --> 00:53:30.586
had hair growing all the way down the bridge
of his nose to the tip.

963
00:53:30.770 --> 00:53:32.714
And Moshe and I both noticed it.

964
00:53:32.834 --> 00:53:35.010
But I was able to sort of talk myself down

965
00:53:35.042 --> 00:53:37.458
from it, where he was totally creeped up by
it.

966
00:53:37.466 --> 00:53:39.696
He didn't say anything, should congratulate
him.

967
00:53:39.720 --> 00:53:44.976
He was very good about it, but I was sort of
able to be like, okay, so this is weird, but

968
00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:49.432
I'm sure this man is very nice and, and
continue to just treat him the way that I

969
00:53:49.448 --> 00:53:49.976
would anybody.

970
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.776
And that feeling of initial unrest for me went

971
00:53:52.800 --> 00:53:53.272
away.

972
00:53:53.408 --> 00:53:55.400
Moshe claims that it didn't, but he was very

973
00:53:55.432 --> 00:53:55.856
good about it.

974
00:53:55.880 --> 00:53:57.124
He wasn't insulted.

975
00:53:57.544 --> 00:54:02.752
Moshe: Oh, no. Because I. I have learned over
time that I have no poker face.

976
00:54:02.928 --> 00:54:06.720
So if I'm finding someone to be, particularly
if something.

977
00:54:06.792 --> 00:54:11.192
If I find something about someone makes me
particularly uncomfortable, a lot of the time,

978
00:54:11.248 --> 00:54:12.752
I'll just look away, or I won't.

979
00:54:12.848 --> 00:54:14.176
I won't engage with them.

980
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:18.368
And it can come across as shy or unfriendly or
why isn't he looking at me?

981
00:54:18.496 --> 00:54:22.688
But really, it's as much for you as it is for
me, because I don't want to look at you and

982
00:54:22.776 --> 00:54:27.240
have a reaction and we just make you
uncomfortable.

983
00:54:27.312 --> 00:54:29.392
Leah: We discussed this earlier, actually.

984
00:54:29.568 --> 00:54:32.880
I can tell by the way he's holding his

985
00:54:32.912 --> 00:54:39.632
shoulders, the cut of his jaw, the look in his
eye, the look on his face, what he's likely to

986
00:54:39.648 --> 00:54:40.528
be feeling.

987
00:54:40.696 --> 00:54:42.816
And when people in meetings, for example, look

988
00:54:42.840 --> 00:54:44.864
at him and say, moshe, do you have anything to
add?

989
00:54:44.944 --> 00:54:49.044
I will openly say at this point, nothing that
you want to hear.

990
00:54:49.784 --> 00:54:55.120
Moshe: And that is actually something that we
can talk about in the next episode on

991
00:54:55.192 --> 00:54:56.764
revisiting communication.

992
00:54:57.664 --> 00:55:00.376
And so did you have any, do you have any final

993
00:55:00.520 --> 00:55:00.920
points?

994
00:55:00.992 --> 00:55:06.262
Leah: I mean, for me, I actually left for
conclusions, but I wanted to share one thing

995
00:55:06.318 --> 00:55:08.830
that another content creator said.

996
00:55:08.942 --> 00:55:10.806
Sure, an autistic content creator.

997
00:55:10.870 --> 00:55:16.910
She is a high functioning female autistic who
was also diagnosed later in life.

998
00:55:17.102 --> 00:55:25.270
And she said, you know, the reason why
neurotypical people are often uncomfortable in

999
00:55:25.302 --> 00:55:33.338
dealing with autistic is because autistic
people who are unmasked will violate the human

1000
00:55:33.466 --> 00:55:35.654
norms of social interactions.

1001
00:55:36.634 --> 00:55:39.010
Sometimes what it can do is hold up a mirror

1002
00:55:39.042 --> 00:55:46.442
to us regarding, really, how insignificant and
how shallow a lot of the things neurotypicals

1003
00:55:46.498 --> 00:55:47.658
concentrate on are.

1004
00:55:47.746 --> 00:55:51.554
Moshe: Right?
And that is something that sort of intersects

1005
00:55:51.594 --> 00:55:57.388
between sort of the uncanny Valley concept
that we were talking about today and

1006
00:55:57.476 --> 00:56:04.692
revisiting communication, because something
that autistics are very good at is brutal

1007
00:56:04.748 --> 00:56:12.024
honesty unfiltered by social norms, social
cues, social customs.

1008
00:56:12.404 --> 00:56:19.864
And this is what led me to make a teacher at
Auburn school cry.

1009
00:56:20.204 --> 00:56:22.204
And the fact that when we were out of.

1010
00:56:22.244 --> 00:56:22.980
Leah: Don't be modest.

1011
00:56:23.052 --> 00:56:23.906
More than once.

1012
00:56:24.020 --> 00:56:24.854
Moshe: More than once.

1013
00:56:24.974 --> 00:56:27.758
And when we were at another meeting, most

1014
00:56:27.806 --> 00:56:35.394
recently, there was, I made another teacher
cry, because I have learned through experience

1015
00:56:35.774 --> 00:56:43.758
that I am not very good at either hiding my
expression or hiding my feelings.

1016
00:56:43.926 --> 00:56:49.970
So the question becomes, if you want my
opinion, I will give you my opinion, but you

1017
00:56:50.002 --> 00:56:55.058
might not want my opinion if you want to lull
yourself into a sense of, you know, self

1018
00:56:55.106 --> 00:57:00.698
righteousness or sense of security about what
you're doing, because I will tell you to your

1019
00:57:00.746 --> 00:57:04.734
face, what you're doing is unfair, unjust.

1020
00:57:05.154 --> 00:57:07.506
You're clearly unaware of what you're doing.

1021
00:57:07.650 --> 00:57:11.770
And I will just kind of sit back and go, well,
you wanted my opinion.

1022
00:57:11.882 --> 00:57:13.946
Leah: Yeah. And that's fair.

1023
00:57:14.010 --> 00:57:16.234
I mean, you go into meetings for Avram with

1024
00:57:16.274 --> 00:57:19.442
only Avram in mind, and you're not shy about
that.

1025
00:57:19.538 --> 00:57:19.810
Moshe: Yeah.

1026
00:57:19.842 --> 00:57:22.194
Leah: Because somebody cares how the music is.

1027
00:57:22.314 --> 00:57:25.306
Moshe: Yes, because I'm out for my family.

1028
00:57:25.370 --> 00:57:27.546
I'm out for my kids and out for Leah.

1029
00:57:27.730 --> 00:57:34.254
And I am never shy to talk about how something
makes me feel.

1030
00:57:34.674 --> 00:57:38.914
I've been told that I should be, but I don't
think that that's reasonable.

1031
00:57:39.034 --> 00:57:39.698
Leah: Absolutely.

1032
00:57:39.746 --> 00:57:41.730
So do we have any conclusions about the

1033
00:57:41.762 --> 00:57:43.340
uncanny Valley and autism?

1034
00:57:43.442 --> 00:57:48.896
Moshe: The only conclusion that I have is
essentially we've already discussed, which is

1035
00:57:49.000 --> 00:57:54.800
that the uncanny valley, once again, is not
saying that autistic people are, by their

1036
00:57:54.832 --> 00:57:55.984
nature creepy.

1037
00:57:56.144 --> 00:57:59.376
It's that unfortunately, we live in a society,

1038
00:57:59.560 --> 00:58:03.416
wherever you happen to live, when you're
listening to this, that tells you that you

1039
00:58:03.440 --> 00:58:05.008
have to behave in a certain way.

1040
00:58:05.136 --> 00:58:07.648
And because autistics don't necessarily always

1041
00:58:07.696 --> 00:58:11.814
behave in the way that they're expected to
behave, that they're told that they have to

1042
00:58:11.854 --> 00:58:13.126
behave a certain way.

1043
00:58:13.270 --> 00:58:16.022
And by trying to be someone that they're not,

1044
00:58:16.198 --> 00:58:22.086
then they end up causing more people to be
uncomfortable by them than if they just were.

1045
00:58:22.110 --> 00:58:26.006
Like, you know what?
This is who I am, and that is something that

1046
00:58:26.030 --> 00:58:27.590
you'll have to get used to.

1047
00:58:27.662 --> 00:58:30.470
So if you're autistic and you've had

1048
00:58:30.502 --> 00:58:32.886
experiences like I have, let me know.

1049
00:58:32.950 --> 00:58:34.542
Write in, comment on this.

1050
00:58:34.598 --> 00:58:37.340
Write us five stars or four stars or one star,
whatever.

1051
00:58:37.502 --> 00:58:45.520
But don't be ashamed and don't be
uncomfortable by your own autism.

1052
00:58:45.712 --> 00:58:46.840
Accept it, love it.

1053
00:58:46.872 --> 00:58:49.520
If you have an autistic child, don't try and

1054
00:58:49.552 --> 00:58:54.744
figure out ways to make them look more normal.

1055
00:58:54.904 --> 00:58:58.128
Accept who they are and help other people.

1056
00:58:58.256 --> 00:59:02.976
Leah: I want to say it also on the other way
around, if one of your friends or a spouse of

1057
00:59:03.000 --> 00:59:07.268
yours or somebody you're dating gives you that
creepy feeling, don't be ashamed of that.

1058
00:59:07.396 --> 00:59:09.184
Openly communicate it.

1059
00:59:09.724 --> 00:59:11.452
So your face is doing a thing.

1060
00:59:11.508 --> 00:59:13.172
Is there something you'd like to tell me?

1061
00:59:13.268 --> 00:59:18.732
Moshe: And that's definitely a good way to
open up a conversation and maybe start a

1062
00:59:18.748 --> 00:59:24.876
dialogue about breaking down barriers and
understanding each other better.

1063
00:59:24.980 --> 00:59:26.204
Leah: Can we in on a joke?

1064
00:59:26.324 --> 00:59:26.772
Moshe: Sure.

1065
00:59:26.868 --> 00:59:27.540
Leah: How should.

1066
00:59:27.652 --> 00:59:28.108
Moshe: Yes.

1067
00:59:28.196 --> 00:59:32.210
Leah: What do you call it when we mask so well
that a neurotypical can't tell that you're

1068
00:59:32.242 --> 00:59:33.162
autistic?

1069
00:59:33.338 --> 00:59:33.882
Moshe: I don't know.

1070
00:59:33.938 --> 00:59:34.898
What do you call it?

1071
00:59:35.026 --> 00:59:36.974
Leah: You committed ASCII and Oz.

1072
00:59:37.474 --> 00:59:38.814
Moshe: Thank you for listening.

1073
00:59:39.394 --> 00:59:41.210
Well, that's our show for today.

1074
00:59:41.362 --> 00:59:44.294
Now, you know one autistic just a little bit
better.

1075
00:59:44.754 --> 00:59:50.938
So something you may not know about some
autistics is that we often struggle with

1076
00:59:50.986 --> 00:59:52.654
ending social interactions.

1077
00:59:53.074 --> 00:59:54.694
So, Leah.

1078
00:59:55.474 --> 00:59:56.538
Leah: All right, Moshe.

1079
00:59:56.586 --> 00:59:57.398
I'll take care of it.

1080
00:59:57.426 --> 01:00:00.942
It. Thank you for listening to now you know
one autistic.

1081
01:00:00.998 --> 01:00:01.774
See you next week.