Unlocking Early Intervention: Insights from Dr. Temple Grandin

Episode Title: Unlocking Early Intervention: Insights from Dr. Temple Grandin

Episode Number: 30

Release Date: November 24, 2024

Duration: 57:20

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah delve into the importance of early intervention for neurodivergent children and the nuances of supporting them effectively. Dr. Temple Grandin, renowned autism advocate and expert, joins the conversation. The discussion covers Dr. Grandin's insights on the necessity of timely intervention, the challenges with waitlists, and practical approaches to support development.

Key Takeaways

• Early Intervention: Dr. Grandin emphasizes the critical need for immediate intervention for children with developmental delays, particularly those with speech delays.
• Practical Approaches: She suggests engaging strategies like "library playgroups" and involving retired teachers or volunteers to provide support and basic therapy.
• Empowerment and Independence: Dr. Grandin advocates for empowering neurodivergent individuals by striking a balance between reasonable accommodations and encouraging independence in life skills.

 

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• Why timely intervention is crucial for children with speech delays. 
• Practical strategies for parents and caregivers to support development.
• How to balance accommodations with fostering independence in neurodivergent individuals.

Quotes

• "It's really important that if you have a pre-year-old that's not talking, they can get very quickly into a good early intervention educational program." - Dr. Temple Grandin
• "They're not learning basic life skills." -Dr. Grandin [on the critical need to teach life skills]

Resources & Links

• Now You Know One Autistic website: Homepage
• ARK Therapeutic: https://www.arktherapeutic.com/
• Dr. Temple Grandin's Website: https://www.templegrandin.com/
• Visual Thinking: The Hidden Gifts of People Who Think in Pictures, Patterns, and Abstractions: https://www.templegrandin.com/books/visualthinking.html

Connect with Us

• Website: nowyouknowoneautistic.podbean.com
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61557857484848
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nowyouknowoneautistic/?hl=en

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Sponsors:

The Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast is sponsored by:

• ARK Therapeutic (https://www.arktherapeutic.com/) - a leading manufacturer of innovative therapy tools and special needs products! Check them out, and use coupon code NOWYOUKNOW10 for 10% off your order!

Transcript:

WEBVTT

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<v Music>

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<v Moshe>Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic.

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<v Leah>I'm Leah, and I'm boring. Welcome to the Now You Know One Autistic podcast.

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<v Moshe>The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect one autistic and one Leah,

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<v Moshe>and don't necessarily reflect the entire autistic community.

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<v Leah>Let's get to it.

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<v Leah>Hi, Leah. Hi, Moshe.

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<v Moshe>How are you today?

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<v Leah>I'm good. How are you?

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<v Moshe>I'm amazing. Today, we're joined by the amazing Dr.

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<v Moshe>Temple Grandin, and we don't actually have a script or outline. Do we ever?

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<v Moshe>So we're just going to get started. Welcome to the show, Dr. Grandin.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's great to be here.

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<v Moshe>So before we actually started recording, you were talking to Leia and I about

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<v Moshe>providing some extra support for children and your thoughts on that.

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<v Moshe>I'd love to have you repeat what you were talking about.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's really important that if you have a three-year-old that's not talking,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>that you get very quickly into a good early intervention educational program.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Now, there's certain parts of the UF and in other places where kids are being

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>put on a two-year wait list.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's not acceptable. we need to be starting therapy now so what can we do

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>about it well I was out with one group I don't want nothing to say where it was but about farming.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And I suggested they start library play we'll call it that because you can't call it therapy,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>that's what we're actually going to be doing and get retired teachers and grandmothers

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>to start working with these kids now,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and the thing I have found is that it's not rocket science And some people have

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the ability to work with a kid, you know, just how to engage and then to start

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>working on teaching speech.

00:02:09.266 --> 00:02:12.426
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Scroll down when you talk to the child. Give them time to respond.

00:02:12.666 --> 00:02:15.986
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>They're like a slow computer. If you keep clicking on the computer, it freezes.

00:02:16.546 --> 00:02:20.746
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Getting their face too much, they freeze. Then working on turn-taking,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>all kinds of little things.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Because that teaches the child to wait and still, like being with your tentacles,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>putting on clothes, and you'll be able to get progress.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And the child likes going to therapy. You get more speech, more turn-taking,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and more skills. You're doing the right thing. and cut way down on them forced

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>eye contact. That just caused the sensory overload.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>In my program, which two teachers did in the basement of a house,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the emphasis on speech, lots of emphasis on time-taking, and emphasis on skills,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>like learning how to use utensils when I ate.

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<v Leah>So, Dr. Grandin, I agree with you. We've had this experience with our son,

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<v Leah>Avram, who I think we told you about.

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<v Leah>He's a very, very talented artist.

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<v Leah>He's very, very, you know, emotional and sweet, but he was put on wait lists

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<v Leah>for certain things, and he still, at 10 years old, struggles with them.

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<v Leah>So he got the turn-taking program right in school, but he didn't get speech

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<v Leah>therapy, and he still has an accent, sort of an affectation.

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<v Leah>So can you explain a little bit more for our listeners who aren't that familiar

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<v Leah>with the process, why early intervention is important, And why do you think

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<v Leah>in North America, because we're originally from Canada, and you're saying it's

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<v Leah>a problem in the States, it's not taken seriously?

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>No, it's also about a lot of stuff that's a wait list. And one thing we've got

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>to look at is training requirements for teachers.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I just showed something the other day that an occupational therapist had to have a doctorate.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Who's not going to have enough occupational therapists if we require that?

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>We have to start looking at how much training is required. I mean,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>let's look at what's happened in medicine.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I went to the doctor recently, and it was a physician's assistant that,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've worked on me, checked me out. And that's a person, instead of having an

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>eight-year degree, they might have a five-year degree.

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<v Leah>I agree with you. You mentioned that.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The other big problem is the cost of education.

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<v Leah>Yeah. You mentioned that volunteers or retired teachers or grandmas who are

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<v Leah>even willing to take sort of a short training could be helping with stuff like this.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, exactly. And it could be a pretty short training, one week,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>something like that, to work with the little kids. because the worst thing you

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>can do is if blood is going out on phones and all the cons.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's what you don't want to happen to me.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And, you know, this is a problem in a lot of places. I mean,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>other countries too, there's problems with it, not just the U.S.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've heard about big wait lists in Canada too.

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<v Leah>Canada was terrible.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And this is recent.

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<v Leah>And can we also discuss the financial support for the parents?

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<v Leah>Because in Canada, I waited two years to get any payout. So out of my pocket,

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<v Leah>I paid for additional therapies and things to use, like a tablet to work on

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<v Leah>his language or expression.

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<v Leah>Do you think that that's something that should be streamlined as well?

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>No, I think we're going to end up having to do a lot more vocal stuff.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I was recently, within the last year, out at a library.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I suggested that they start library.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You can't call it therapy for legal reasons. Yeah. But that's what we're going to be doing.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And because we're going to have to start doing some of your own programs.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I guess the worst thing you can do with a three-year-old, but not often,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>is to do nothing. Absolutely. You already have a diagnosis.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>He's not talking or she's not talking.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Now, we have to rule out deafness. We've got to make sure they're not deaf and

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>they don't have something wrong with their throat.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But the therapies are pretty much the same, regardless of diagnosis.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Once you've ruled out deafness, you have to do it. But you've got to get these

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>kids engaged. than what I've observed is that some people just have a knack.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I don't think they just have a knack. They know just how hard to push to get

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the kid engaged without going over that field.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>There's a lot more stuff just locally because for many things,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've been around now for 50 years, scientific research.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've been involved with that for 50 years.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Scientific research used to own livestock stuff. And compared to the 70s,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The money's dried up, and it's dried up all around the world.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Not just the U.S., but in other countries, too. Research funds have dried up.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I can remember in the 70s, we put money flow like water.

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<v Leah>That's unbelievable to me. That's unbelievable and amazing.

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<v Leah>So what you're sort of discussing is almost a more practical approach that a

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<v Leah>child doesn't need a 25-page and six-month evaluation to be helped.

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<v Leah>Because if they're not speaking, they're not speaking. It doesn't matter if

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<v Leah>they're autistic or not.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And there's three ways for speech is messed up. It's real soon. We've ruled out death.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But even though they're not deaf, the child may not be hearing auditory details.

00:07:17.735 --> 00:07:21.755
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It might have said, cat, pat, or shat.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>They might be just hearing, ah.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I certainly wouldn't be talking about my cat, my pet, sat. I'd be talking about my pet, cat.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And even now, I have to figure that out by context. So my speech teacher would

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>slow down, none sneak to confidence.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>She'd say the word just the regular way, like, cat. And then she'd say, pat, pat.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So it's auditory processing, where slow processes are stayed,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and they're not hearing some of the hard consonant sounds.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Then I also have to get my speech out, let's express it.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And then another kind of kid, your echolalic, where they'll memorize almost an entire movie.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And they'll just repeat that movie, and then they'll want to play that movie

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>over and over and over again.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And then with the echolalic kid, they're saying clear speech,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>but they don't know what it means.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So what you want to do with that, let's say it's a Disney movie,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>well, we go back and I'm going to have to get the movie out and play it and

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>take lines out of that movie that the kid uses and work them into the verbal.

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<v Leah>Moshe, talk to Dr. Grannon about your theory on nonverbal.

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<v Leah>Moshe doesn't like the term nonverbal because he says everybody's verbal.

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<v Leah>It's just that you have to work to understand them.

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<v Moshe>I think for me, it was very challenging because I was diagnosed very late in life, and I grew

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Canada, in Western Canada.

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<v Moshe>Where we used to throw around the terms that we don't use, functioning and low

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<v Moshe>functioning and nonverbal and verbal.

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<v Moshe>And I've had the privilege to meet a lot of children that are labeled as nonverbal. And

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It used to.

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<v Moshe>Really annoy me that they were just, well, my child is nonverbal.

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<v Moshe>I said, your child is fully verbal.

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<v Moshe>He's just not using language that you understand.

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<v Moshe>He's trying to get his point across in a way that he understands.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Maybe he needs to be taught how to type.

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<v Moshe>Exactly. Picture boards are a great idea for them.

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<v Moshe>And learning how to type if they can type, picture boards, which can be used.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's right.

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<v Moshe>Because communication is more than just speaking a language that the average person can understand.

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<v Moshe>And I always say that if you take the time to listen to these children,

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<v Moshe>you're going understand what they need a lot more than if you just label them

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<v Moshe>as nonverbal and leave them be.

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<v Leah>I think what a lot of parents would like to know honestly, Dr.

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<v Leah>Grandin, is we watched your movie, we're big fans of yours, we've listened to all your TED Talks.

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<v Leah>You struggled with speech when you were younger. You would have been I guess

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<v Leah>as nonverbal and now you're so successful.

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<v Leah>What steps went into helping you do that and how can you help their children to be that way?

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, I had very good rules for still eating. I also had no signs of epilepsy,

00:10:19.342 --> 00:10:22.542
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>which usually improves speaking.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The other thing is being brought up in the field.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Manor's and social skills were taught in a much more specific way.

00:10:30.342 --> 00:10:35.102
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You were taught to say, you were taught to say, thank you.

00:10:35.462 --> 00:10:41.382
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>When I did something like stir my drink with my mother's in the school no,

00:10:41.642 --> 00:10:43.202
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>she'd say, use the spoon.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>People think that's disgusting when you put your finger in it.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I call that teachable moments. And grown-ups collected little kids.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Like, if I touched too much stuff in the stores, back in 50,

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the door staff would say, only touch the things they're going to buy.

00:11:01.802 --> 00:11:05.862
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>There was a tendency to give the instruction instead of screaming no.

00:11:07.782 --> 00:11:11.602
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But I don't have lots of granddads come up to me. grandmoms stop.

00:11:12.702 --> 00:11:15.642
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And they discover they're autistic later in their life and they've got good jobs.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You know, I was non-verbal until four.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I can remember the frustration of not being able to talk. I can also remember

00:11:24.722 --> 00:11:29.722
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the frustration once I learned how to talk, I couldn't respond quickly.

00:11:30.802 --> 00:11:33.882
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And they wouldn't give me a chance to respond.

00:11:34.042 --> 00:11:38.182
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I was like a phone computer or a phone on one bar of service.

00:11:38.182 --> 00:11:40.942
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It took time for me to respond.

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<v Moshe>These expectations that are put on people who are neurodiverse to conform to

00:11:50.439 --> 00:11:53.659
<v Moshe>the standard that's expected of them.

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<v Moshe>And it's very frustrating. My mother looked at it.

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<v Dr. Temple Grandin>My dad was thinking about that. There was high expectations from accommodation.

00:12:04.499 --> 00:12:09.179
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>There's some things I have to conform. You can't be a rude, filthy, dirty slob. Exactly.

00:12:09.359 --> 00:12:12.759
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You can do a lot of bad language for people off. You can't be doing that.

00:12:13.079 --> 00:12:16.119
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But let's just give an example. Okay, sound sensitivity.

00:12:16.479 --> 00:12:21.599
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And nobody hardly knew about that. We would go on vacation, and we went, I was five.

00:12:22.299 --> 00:12:26.439
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And we traveled up on the deck, and when the horn went off, I flung my foot

00:12:26.439 --> 00:12:27.819
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>on the deck and started screaming.

00:12:28.239 --> 00:12:32.339
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Right. Okay. The accommodation was the letter. Hello?

00:12:33.239 --> 00:12:37.979
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It was made where I did not have to ride the ferry right next to the horn. Right.

00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:38.859
<v Moshe>That would make sense.

00:12:39.479 --> 00:12:41.299
<v Leah>Yeah, Moshe and I didn't call. I'm going to

00:12:41.299 --> 00:12:46.999
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Call it high expectations with summer holidays. I was expected to be at gatherings,

00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:53.059
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>separate room like the double play in, and I did more of exercise during family gatherings.

00:12:53.639 --> 00:12:58.739
<v Leah>Moshe and I did a whole episode on reasonable versus unreasonable expectations

00:12:58.739 --> 00:13:01.919
<v Leah>or accommodations, and it does seem

00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:07.579
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Like these days there's a lot of push toward allow the autistic person to.

00:13:07.579 --> 00:13:10.639
<v Leah>Do what they want and just, as you said, be on video games all day long and

00:13:10.639 --> 00:13:11.919
<v Leah>just accept them for who they are?

00:13:12.119 --> 00:13:16.779
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Oh, no, absolutely not. I just, again, I'm working on updating one of my books

00:13:16.779 --> 00:13:20.159
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>right now and I just looked at the latest research on video games.

00:13:20.499 --> 00:13:23.999
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>For people on the autism spectrum, it's not all right.

00:13:24.219 --> 00:13:30.179
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And then screen limited and young adults are addicted to video games.

00:13:30.579 --> 00:13:32.219
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's a very good success.

00:13:32.639 --> 00:13:35.679
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's fully replacing the video games with automobile mechanics.

00:13:37.139 --> 00:13:42.879
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's actually gone into the repair field, and they found that fixing that was

00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:45.259
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>more interesting than the video games.

00:13:45.459 --> 00:13:49.459
<v Leah>Well, of course, because it has a real-world effect. I think that a lot of people

00:13:49.459 --> 00:13:52.439
<v Leah>are sort of letting their children be babysat.

00:13:54.459 --> 00:13:59.119
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Like, what they did with me for family gatherings, when we all gathered on one

00:13:59.119 --> 00:14:01.439
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>table, like Thanksgiving or, you know, holidays.

00:14:03.209 --> 00:14:10.129
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And the rule was I had to sit at the table and quietly eat and take turns talking for 20 minutes.

00:14:10.469 --> 00:14:12.509
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And then I could ask the excuse.

00:14:13.009 --> 00:14:16.109
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Now, if dessert didn't get served up that time, I didn't get any.

00:14:16.629 --> 00:14:20.229
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But if I just had this morning, I'd be standing and leaving 20 minutes.

00:14:20.609 --> 00:14:22.969
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If dessert was served up, dessert was...

00:14:24.069 --> 00:14:25.629
<v Leah>We still do that with our...

00:14:25.629 --> 00:14:25.949
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Exercise.

00:14:26.729 --> 00:14:27.549
<v Leah>Yeah, we still do

00:14:27.549 --> 00:14:33.729
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That with our... Yeah, but now what we did with my grandmother's house, and she was in the fifth.

00:14:34.249 --> 00:14:38.009
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So I was allowed to run up the fire stairs and try to beat the elevator,

00:14:38.289 --> 00:14:43.709
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>which gave me a thirst of hard exercise when we came, when we beat the elevator.

00:14:44.209 --> 00:14:44.949
<v Leah>That's amazing.

00:14:45.269 --> 00:14:50.389
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Just clever little things that my mother figured out and, no,

00:14:50.489 --> 00:14:53.469
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I'm going to go to family gatherings. I'm not going to be totally disruptive.

00:14:53.949 --> 00:14:59.249
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>We could do normal stuff with accommodations. And I just gave you some examples.

00:14:59.789 --> 00:15:03.889
<v Leah>And that's amazing because Moshe feels the same way, and it's an unpopular opinion

00:15:03.889 --> 00:15:06.889
<v Leah>these days. He says, I don't want to be accommodated, I want to be pushed.

00:15:07.769 --> 00:15:13.609
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I mean, with reasonable accommodations. Because, yeah, I said we talked about

00:15:13.609 --> 00:15:17.229
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>accommodations at the university, and some of the important ones.

00:15:18.009 --> 00:15:19.969
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And what happens with a lot of individuals,

00:15:22.645 --> 00:15:27.785
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>at the university. And one is extra time on tests. A lot of people need that.

00:15:28.145 --> 00:15:33.005
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And sometimes they don't always use it. But the fact they know they have it, then they don't panic.

00:15:33.445 --> 00:15:37.345
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Another big problem, Adrian, is LED lights that flicker.

00:15:37.585 --> 00:15:42.005
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And this is a problem for 20% of neurodiverse.

00:15:42.205 --> 00:15:47.225
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>They can see flicker on LED lights and it's like being a strobe light.

00:15:47.645 --> 00:15:54.485
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And that's something where they need new construction. Let's not use those kind of lights.

00:15:54.785 --> 00:15:58.065
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And one of the ways you can detect the lights, because I don't see it,

00:15:58.425 --> 00:16:01.425
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>is to take video with you in slow motion.

00:16:01.845 --> 00:16:08.425
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So the lighting. And another thing is, I do not remember long springs of verbal

00:16:08.425 --> 00:16:09.885
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>sequential information.

00:16:12.725 --> 00:16:16.445
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Write down the steps for doing a task. I got a pilot's checklist.

00:16:16.745 --> 00:16:19.425
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If I have to close out the cash register at the store.

00:16:19.925 --> 00:16:24.185
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I want step one, step two, step three, step four. I let's check with format.

00:16:24.705 --> 00:16:28.145
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Now, those are very simple interventions. They can make a big difference.

00:16:28.585 --> 00:16:30.765
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>They're essential. Now, a lot of other stuff that's going on,

00:16:30.785 --> 00:16:33.925
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I don't think is essential. Absolutely. I agree.

00:16:34.165 --> 00:16:38.765
<v Leah>So, what I'm hearing, the theme is accommodating people towards being successful,

00:16:39.025 --> 00:16:41.625
<v Leah>but not accommodating them towards stagnation.

00:16:42.545 --> 00:16:48.765
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's right. Because I'm seeing parents doing everything for their autistic kid.

00:16:49.825 --> 00:16:53.025
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And the kid's not learning how to do anything for himself.

00:16:53.505 --> 00:16:59.185
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I'm seeing teenagers that they're doing well in school, both speaking,

00:16:59.605 --> 00:17:03.805
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and they've never gone shopping by themselves. They've never ordered food in the restaurant.

00:17:05.865 --> 00:17:10.605
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>They're not learning bank account. They're not learning basic life skills.

00:17:11.085 --> 00:17:14.325
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Everything's done for them. Seeing that way too often.

00:17:15.065 --> 00:17:22.205
<v Moshe>It's very frustrating. And I feel like it's a result of the fact that people

00:17:22.205 --> 00:17:27.185
<v Moshe>either are told that the child is incapable of learning life skills,

00:17:27.385 --> 00:17:34.145
<v Moshe>or alternatively, that the effort and the work that goes into repetition and

00:17:34.145 --> 00:17:40.845
<v Moshe>continued reminding before a skill becomes solidified in their skill set or

00:17:40.845 --> 00:17:42.725
<v Moshe>in their tool belt is a lot.

00:17:43.785 --> 00:17:48.505
<v Moshe>So if you have to continue to teach, for example, a child how to order food

00:17:48.505 --> 00:17:53.225
<v Moshe>in a restaurant, over time, if you're particularly impatient,

00:17:53.465 --> 00:17:57.405
<v Moshe>you might say, you know what, I'll do it from now on, and you don't have to worry about it.

00:17:57.625 --> 00:18:01.465
<v Moshe>And you may think that you're helping, but what you're doing is you're teaching

00:18:01.465 --> 00:18:04.905
<v Moshe>the child that they don't have to learn how to do it.

00:18:05.525 --> 00:18:08.485
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And that's a problem. Well, that's a problem. I'm seeing this all the time.

00:18:08.485 --> 00:18:14.265
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And I'm seeing some parents, this is a mom, saying, I can't let go when I suggest

00:18:14.265 --> 00:18:17.005
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>that their child should buy something by themselves.

00:18:18.450 --> 00:18:18.870
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Yeah.

00:18:19.250 --> 00:18:24.010
<v Leah>I find that's a little bit of a problem within the community because I am the

00:18:24.010 --> 00:18:25.410
<v Leah>mother of an autistic son.

00:18:25.670 --> 00:18:30.890
<v Leah>Autistic sons or autistic boys seem to be treated very specially, I find.

00:18:31.650 --> 00:18:36.050
<v Leah>And I'm seeing that a lot within my peers. And I've always disagreed with it.

00:18:36.150 --> 00:18:39.010
<v Leah>A couple of things that you brought up again, I've disagreed with the doing

00:18:39.010 --> 00:18:41.350
<v Leah>everything for your child because they're going to be an adult.

00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:43.150
<v Leah>You're not raising a child who isn't an adult.

00:18:43.810 --> 00:18:46.130
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, this is the problem. They're not learning life skills.

00:18:46.310 --> 00:18:50.450
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And I see parents putting all those emphasis on academic skills.

00:18:50.770 --> 00:18:55.430
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've seen students graduate in college with honors and not be able to handle

00:18:55.430 --> 00:18:57.950
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the workplace because they're never learning working skills.

00:18:58.310 --> 00:19:01.150
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And that needs to start hopefully around the age of 11.

00:19:01.650 --> 00:19:04.570
<v Leah>That's very much like Moshe. He was missing an entire skill set.

00:19:04.670 --> 00:19:08.130
<v Leah>So he went out on his own and he was fine in certain things,

00:19:08.250 --> 00:19:09.710
<v Leah>but certain things he had no idea.

00:19:10.250 --> 00:19:14.510
<v Moshe>And that's because there was no intervention. Not only because of the time that

00:19:14.510 --> 00:19:19.110
<v Moshe>I lived, I mean, not to say that your time was not even more,

00:19:19.110 --> 00:19:22.150
<v Moshe>you know, in terms of research, Dr.

00:19:22.250 --> 00:19:29.030
<v Moshe>Grandin, but when you end up in a position where, and I'm going to use a term

00:19:29.030 --> 00:19:34.290
<v Moshe>that I also very much dislike, is you don't look autistic or you don't look

00:19:34.290 --> 00:19:35.550
<v Moshe>like there's something wrong.

00:19:35.550 --> 00:19:42.650
<v Moshe>So people just assume that you must behave and you have this they

00:19:43.530 --> 00:19:49.150
<v Moshe>like we did an episode, Leah and I on the uncanny valley of autism where a person

00:19:49.150 --> 00:19:56.550
<v Moshe>appears to be quote unquote normal but there's just something a little off or a little bit struck,

00:19:56.730 --> 00:19:58.050
<v Moshe>like still, there's just something

00:19:58.050 --> 00:20:02.510
<v Moshe>about them that makes people very uncomfortable because they appear so

00:20:03.678 --> 00:20:05.378
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I don't know, normal-like.

00:20:05.458 --> 00:20:08.578
<v Moshe>But they're not actually, they need that support.

00:20:08.958 --> 00:20:17.418
<v Moshe>And you set expectations where over time, you simply learn that you are not

00:20:17.418 --> 00:20:20.378
<v Moshe>capable of doing this or that or the other thing.

00:20:20.658 --> 00:20:26.678
<v Moshe>But then, you know, you go your whole life without learning how to balance a

00:20:26.678 --> 00:20:32.378
<v Moshe>checkbook or how to keep a budget or how to clean a home or how to...

00:20:32.378 --> 00:20:33.798
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, I'm not a student.

00:20:34.518 --> 00:20:42.378
<v Moshe>Like, that is... That's incredible. The amount of adults that don't learn these things.

00:20:43.258 --> 00:20:48.138
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I remember very well. And it's fascinating. And my family's little things that

00:20:48.138 --> 00:20:51.178
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I attended. My memories are like little phone pictures.

00:20:52.278 --> 00:20:57.298
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And when I was eight, you saw 50 cents a week for allowance. That's about $5 today.

00:20:57.938 --> 00:21:01.738
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And there were certain items that were bought. They came out of allowance.

00:21:01.738 --> 00:21:05.458
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's like little kites and toy airplanes, candy, and comics.

00:21:06.458 --> 00:21:10.958
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And 50 cents could get me five Superman comic books.

00:21:11.538 --> 00:21:17.058
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But if I wanted the airplane that cost 69 cents, I had to save for two weeks.

00:21:17.098 --> 00:21:17.718
<v Leah>That's amazing.

00:21:18.358 --> 00:21:20.178
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I was learning that at age eight.

00:21:20.758 --> 00:21:24.198
<v Leah>And that's amazing. We do the same thing for our children, even Avram,

00:21:24.498 --> 00:21:29.818
<v Leah>where he'll be given money, and he has to budget that money because these parents

00:21:29.818 --> 00:21:32.958
<v Leah>who are saying, my child's not good with math, or they don't understand numbers,

00:21:33.098 --> 00:21:34.398
<v Leah>or they're never going to understand money.

00:21:34.398 --> 00:21:38.218
<v Leah>They can't practice something without literally practicing it.

00:21:38.278 --> 00:21:41.738
<v Leah>You don't have to give them hundreds of dollars, but give them $5 to budget.

00:21:41.978 --> 00:21:45.578
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So I understood what the 50 cents could buy.

00:21:47.518 --> 00:21:53.698
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And then to understand big amounts of money, I remember one of my favorite points

00:21:53.698 --> 00:21:56.998
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I got for Christmas was a table hockey set.

00:21:56.998 --> 00:22:03.578
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That you have to play with another person and ask players that move on up and move the players.

00:22:04.578 --> 00:22:07.578
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And that was due to me for Christmas or one of my favorite things.

00:22:08.098 --> 00:22:12.158
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And I saw it in the toy store window and it was $20.

00:22:13.738 --> 00:22:20.478
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That was a whole year's worth or a lot of a 10 to buy a hockey table.

00:22:21.238 --> 00:22:23.418
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So a $20 bill was a hockey table.

00:22:25.118 --> 00:22:31.018
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And 69 cents was I had to save for two weeks. Now to understand big amounts of money,

00:22:32.548 --> 00:22:37.368
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And that was a really important skill set to learn. I don't understand $5 billion.

00:22:38.068 --> 00:22:41.568
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Right. Well, I put it in large airport units.

00:22:42.308 --> 00:22:45.468
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I can build a very nice large airport for $4 billion.

00:22:46.868 --> 00:22:50.068
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And then I go, oh, you spent $4 billion on that stupid project?

00:22:50.668 --> 00:22:52.688
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Right, exactly. You don't have a whole airport worth money on that?

00:22:52.988 --> 00:22:59.448
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's how I understand really big amounts of money is I put in what I call big units.

00:22:59.988 --> 00:23:07.188
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Big units. If I would feed the airport, our Denver airport will cost $4 billion.

00:23:07.808 --> 00:23:13.888
<v Leah>So you applied the value of the dollar to a real-world concept or to a limited time.

00:23:14.068 --> 00:23:18.628
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Yeah, so to understand these huge amounts of money, I said, well,

00:23:18.628 --> 00:23:22.368
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>how many airports would that be, amount of money? Half an airport?

00:23:22.828 --> 00:23:25.688
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Three-quarters of an airport? Two and a half airports?

00:23:26.748 --> 00:23:35.308
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's how I understand and when I say it I see the Denver airport I see an

00:23:35.308 --> 00:23:37.788
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>aerial view of it that's incredible.

00:23:37.788 --> 00:23:39.468
<v Moshe>That's a really interesting way

00:23:39.468 --> 00:23:47.048
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's how I understand a huge amount of money wow I see zeros I.

00:23:47.048 --> 00:23:51.528
<v Leah>See zeros and she sees airports that's just mind blowing the way

00:23:51.528 --> 00:23:57.348
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You did a project that dumb and you spent entire airports worth of money on that.

00:23:57.588 --> 00:23:59.788
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Right. But you see, that makes that money real.

00:24:00.508 --> 00:24:02.808
<v Leah>Exactly. How can you be so impractical when

00:24:02.808 --> 00:24:07.108
<v Moshe>We can have an airport? I get it. I really understand. Dr. Grandin,

00:24:07.128 --> 00:24:08.468
<v Moshe>I wanted to ask your opinion.

00:24:11.348 --> 00:24:18.988
<v Moshe>We're talking a lot about modification of an education of teachers in classrooms.

00:24:22.028 --> 00:24:29.108
<v Moshe>So I was asking you, Dr. Vanden, for when it comes to education of children,

00:24:29.508 --> 00:24:33.368
<v Moshe>they have specialized schools and specialized classrooms.

00:24:33.788 --> 00:24:39.328
<v Moshe>They call it different things, but you have, you know, neurodiverse children

00:24:39.328 --> 00:24:41.868
<v Moshe>learning in a single classroom setting.

00:24:41.868 --> 00:24:46.108
<v Moshe>And then the other kids learn in a different setting. And in other environments,

00:24:46.388 --> 00:24:51.548
<v Moshe>you have all the children mixed together in the same classroom and maybe a child

00:24:51.548 --> 00:24:56.008
<v Moshe>has a support worker or a therapist or someone that's in there with them and

00:24:56.008 --> 00:24:57.788
<v Moshe>helps them in the ways that they need.

00:24:59.208 --> 00:25:05.368
<v Moshe>Which model do you feel is the best for allowing a child to learn properly?

00:25:06.048 --> 00:25:10.128
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, I would prefer them to be in a regular classroom with a support worker.

00:25:11.114 --> 00:25:14.274
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And the problem we've got with autism is going from Einstein,

00:25:14.534 --> 00:25:19.574
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>one end of the spectrum, to very severely impacted individuals.

00:25:19.994 --> 00:25:22.574
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The regular platform's just not going to work.

00:25:23.134 --> 00:25:26.114
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Now, one thing, I'm a big proponent of his adult experience.

00:25:26.554 --> 00:25:29.294
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If you have a child that's good at math, and it's definitely not me,

00:25:29.874 --> 00:25:31.474
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>then that child can be moved ahead in it.

00:25:31.794 --> 00:25:35.254
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Because if you make a kid that's good at math do a baby-little-born math,

00:25:35.374 --> 00:25:38.454
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>he's going to turn the behavior problem. You can be moved ahead.

00:25:39.394 --> 00:25:43.974
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I love to build things and make things.

00:25:44.514 --> 00:25:48.114
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That was encouraged. And we had all kinds of hands-on stuff in my school,

00:25:48.354 --> 00:25:52.494
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>like golf, sewing, art class. I love those classes.

00:25:53.014 --> 00:25:56.834
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Take the thing the kids are good at and build on it. For one kid,

00:25:56.894 --> 00:25:59.214
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>it might be art. Another kid, it might be music.

00:25:59.734 --> 00:26:03.514
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>For another kid, it might be mathematics, and they need to be moved ahead in mathematics.

00:26:04.854 --> 00:26:06.734
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Build up on the area of strength.

00:26:07.394 --> 00:26:12.654
<v Leah>Avram is an unbelievable artist, and he's driven to do art to the point where

00:26:12.654 --> 00:26:15.974
<v Leah>at his school, so his school now is a weird sort of accommodation.

00:26:16.054 --> 00:26:21.634
<v Leah>We're in Jerusalem, and we literally had to go in there and sort of teach the

00:26:21.634 --> 00:26:26.534
<v Leah>teachers how to teach him, if that made sense, because they had had really no idea.

00:26:27.234 --> 00:26:31.294
<v Leah>Because here what they do is they'll take all kids who have some issues to come

00:26:31.294 --> 00:26:33.734
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Together and not necessarily.

00:26:33.734 --> 00:26:35.974
<v Leah>Accommodate their strengths.

00:26:39.574 --> 00:26:44.614
<v Leah>So what Avram has done is he's actually started teaching art in his school.

00:26:44.854 --> 00:26:48.254
<v Leah>So one day he said, you know what, I'm just going to bring a bunch of toilet

00:26:48.254 --> 00:26:52.294
<v Leah>paper rolls to school and show all my friends how to make toilet paper bad because

00:26:52.294 --> 00:26:54.754
<v Leah>they're not encouraging me.

00:26:54.874 --> 00:26:59.494
<v Leah>So I'm just going to carve myself out a place in this place.

00:27:00.438 --> 00:27:04.158
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I think that's a good way to deal with it. When I was good at art,

00:27:04.298 --> 00:27:08.398
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and I was always encouraged, and I was encouraged to draw a lot of different things.

00:27:08.478 --> 00:27:10.778
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I would just draw the same horse head over and over again.

00:27:11.018 --> 00:27:15.118
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I said, let's draw the entire horse. Let's draw the stable it lives in.

00:27:15.598 --> 00:27:18.178
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Take that thing the kids fit there, don't draw them.

00:27:18.718 --> 00:27:22.618
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Because in art, you need to do art that other people might want.

00:27:23.098 --> 00:27:26.598
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's probably not going to be the same horse head being drawn over and over

00:27:26.598 --> 00:27:28.918
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and over again. I keep encouraging him.

00:27:29.038 --> 00:27:31.618
<v Leah>I see you're very good at animation. and you're very good at close to that.

00:27:32.158 --> 00:27:35.898
<v Leah>Did you know that there are people who work for Disney who make lots and lots

00:27:35.898 --> 00:27:37.518
<v Leah>of money doing the things that you're doing?

00:27:38.218 --> 00:27:42.238
<v Leah>You have to sort of pinpoint it, and he's amazed.

00:27:42.858 --> 00:27:47.018
<v Leah>He's like, wow, people want to pay me money for this thing that I love doing? That's crazy.

00:27:49.198 --> 00:27:52.078
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, that's the kind of thing we need to be doing.

00:27:54.078 --> 00:27:57.078
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The other thing, I don't know if you've read my book called Visual Thinking,

00:27:57.078 --> 00:28:01.278
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>where I talk about the three different kinds of thinking that you can have in autism.

00:28:01.578 --> 00:28:05.298
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>When you have a person like me who thinks totally in pictures,

00:28:06.178 --> 00:28:11.078
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>thinks that my memories are photorealistic pictures and terrible at abstract

00:28:11.078 --> 00:28:13.758
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>math like algebra, then you have another autistic.

00:28:13.758 --> 00:28:15.158
<v Leah>Kid who's a math

00:28:15.158 --> 00:28:21.438
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Mind. And there's research that shows that your mathematical thinker and an

00:28:21.438 --> 00:28:25.118
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>object visualizer like me are actual different kinds of thought.

00:28:25.118 --> 00:28:29.038
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>In my book, Visual Thinking, thinking gives to people who are taking pictures,

00:28:29.318 --> 00:28:30.278
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>patterns, and abstractions.

00:28:30.758 --> 00:28:36.158
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've got scientific research in there that shows that visual thinking and mathematical,

00:28:36.498 --> 00:28:38.758
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>faithful thinking are two different things.

00:28:39.218 --> 00:28:41.238
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And then you have people that think in words.

00:28:41.818 --> 00:28:44.918
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And in autism, you can get extreme versions of things.

00:28:45.578 --> 00:28:49.438
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And the ones that think in words are oftentimes the history lovers,

00:28:49.618 --> 00:28:53.398
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>where they'll tell you everything about the best, about the favorite sports

00:28:53.398 --> 00:28:56.358
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>teams, very, very good at facts.

00:28:58.241 --> 00:29:01.821
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And I think one of the problems is that some of the verbal, their teachers tend

00:29:01.821 --> 00:29:05.521
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>to be verbal. They don't understand these other kinds of thinking.

00:29:06.321 --> 00:29:11.081
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And I didn't even know that verbal thinking existed until I was in my late 30s.

00:29:11.161 --> 00:29:16.301
<v Leah>Wow, amazing. Because people, I think, understand your type of thinking the

00:29:16.301 --> 00:29:20.141
<v Leah>least because they associate it with genius and, like, super

00:29:20.141 --> 00:29:22.641
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Memories and things that a lot.

00:29:22.641 --> 00:29:25.701
<v Leah>Of people don't have. So I think it's probably

00:29:25.701 --> 00:29:26.621
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The least familiar.

00:29:26.621 --> 00:29:32.041
<v Leah>To the populace at large would be the extreme visual thinking that you have.

00:29:32.181 --> 00:29:35.641
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Obviously, my memory, but really it's like little pictures on a phone.

00:29:36.001 --> 00:29:41.501
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So the more things I got out and did when I was a child, then I had a bigger

00:29:41.501 --> 00:29:46.601
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>library of images that I could compare some new experience to.

00:29:46.761 --> 00:29:50.681
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And so I'm going to get these kids out doing lots of real activities.

00:29:51.221 --> 00:29:56.281
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I want to really drastically cut down on this, watching videos and playing video games all day.

00:29:57.081 --> 00:30:01.581
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I was allowed to have an hour a day of television. The rest of the time I was

00:30:01.581 --> 00:30:04.421
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>outside playing, and that was 50s.

00:30:04.421 --> 00:30:04.921
<v Leah>Up on me.

00:30:05.321 --> 00:30:07.761
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You know, I have to say, well, let's go outside and play.

00:30:07.981 --> 00:30:11.401
<v Leah>Well, that's amazing. In the 1950s, children had expectations,

00:30:11.981 --> 00:30:13.861
<v Leah>and children were raised to be polite.

00:30:14.161 --> 00:30:18.621
<v Leah>And it really does sound like it was almost like what they're doing now with

00:30:18.621 --> 00:30:21.241
<v Leah>a structured ABA, but it was everybody doing it.

00:30:21.301 --> 00:30:24.781
<v Leah>So your aunts, your uncles, your grandmothers, your grandparents.

00:30:25.621 --> 00:30:29.981
<v Leah>And that's amazing. I kind of wish society would go back there a little bit.

00:30:31.301 --> 00:30:35.881
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Grownups collected little kids. You know, like let's say I was making a,

00:30:35.941 --> 00:30:39.461
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I was touching too much stuff in stores.

00:30:40.361 --> 00:30:42.021
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But grownups around collected that.

00:30:42.981 --> 00:30:46.021
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Grownups corrected little children in the 50s.

00:30:46.021 --> 00:30:51.181
<v Leah>And this is, I think, sort of, they're pathologizing it and making it a therapy

00:30:51.181 --> 00:30:55.801
<v Leah>now, but I do think that it's something that most kids, even who aren't neurodivergent,

00:30:55.941 --> 00:30:57.881
<v Leah>should be having at this point, and they're not.

00:30:57.881 --> 00:31:01.081
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, this was a standard upbringing. Another thing that was done in the 50s

00:31:01.081 --> 00:31:05.361
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>is when the kids were seven and eight years old, the parents had a party.

00:31:05.881 --> 00:31:10.521
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You had to put on your good clothes and the guests served their snacks.

00:31:11.521 --> 00:31:15.981
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Obviously, not the alcohol, but they served their snacks, took their coats.

00:31:16.901 --> 00:31:19.841
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>When the guests came in, we said, good evening, Mr. and Mrs.

00:31:20.021 --> 00:31:22.401
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Boyd. We were not allowed to use their first names. Of course.

00:31:23.041 --> 00:31:29.501
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And that taught social skills. And that was just standard in our neighborhood. when I was 10 years old.

00:31:29.901 --> 00:31:31.661
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I remember doing it.

00:31:32.522 --> 00:31:37.682
<v Moshe>And that's exactly the kind of thing that I was actually telling Leah about,

00:31:37.782 --> 00:31:39.442
<v Moshe>and we talked a lot about on the show.

00:31:39.742 --> 00:31:46.882
<v Moshe>Rather than raising your children as disabled or as incapable,

00:31:47.362 --> 00:31:51.322
<v Moshe>it's kind of like you raise them as you would raise a child.

00:31:51.322 --> 00:31:56.042
<v Moshe>But then when you hit an obstacle or you hit a roadblock or you hit a challenge,

00:31:56.382 --> 00:32:02.042
<v Moshe>you might have to deviate a little bit in how you present the idea or how you teach the idea.

00:32:03.082 --> 00:32:05.802
<v Moshe>But it's a place of the strengths instead of believing this.

00:32:06.082 --> 00:32:11.062
<v Moshe>Then you're not going to raise children that are bereft of skills.

00:32:11.262 --> 00:32:15.082
<v Moshe>You're going to raise children with lots of skills in the things they can do

00:32:15.082 --> 00:32:18.922
<v Moshe>and ways to overcome it in the things that they can't do.

00:32:18.922 --> 00:32:23.922
<v Moshe>And that is far better than just having a child,

00:32:24.282 --> 00:32:30.242
<v Moshe>you know, as you say, being taught for four or six hours a day on how to look

00:32:30.242 --> 00:32:35.402
<v Moshe>people in the eye, but they don't know, you know, how to read and write and

00:32:35.402 --> 00:32:37.862
<v Moshe>spell. It's very frustrating.

00:32:37.862 --> 00:32:44.642
<v Leah>I think this expectation today that neurodivergent kids are not ever going to

00:32:44.642 --> 00:32:48.922
<v Leah>be capable, I think you need to raise your child with the idea of them succeeding,

00:32:49.142 --> 00:32:51.822
<v Leah>regardless of whether they're neurodiverse or not.

00:32:52.482 --> 00:32:55.702
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Right, absolutely. Well, that's right. When you look at all the famous people,

00:32:55.862 --> 00:32:58.162
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>they're probably neurodiverse. They have the pet company.

00:32:58.402 --> 00:32:58.922
<v Leah>So many.

00:32:58.922 --> 00:33:04.182
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>They're probably neurodiverse. They're just called neurodiverse. and

00:33:04.182 --> 00:33:09.122
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>so when I'd be taught as a business I said we need these skills when I was out

00:33:09.122 --> 00:33:14.462
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>working in the meatpacking plants on getting equipment built and designing equipment

00:33:14.462 --> 00:33:19.502
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've worked with people that own big metal working jobs that were definitely autistic,

00:33:20.382 --> 00:33:23.782
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and they owned businesses and they would have been the visual thinkers like

00:33:23.782 --> 00:33:28.782
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>me and they could just see how mechanical things work and one of the problems

00:33:28.782 --> 00:33:32.802
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>they've done now is we've stopped not being replaced still retiring out.

00:33:33.062 --> 00:33:35.542
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And so the kids, they ought to be fixing things in a factory,

00:33:36.002 --> 00:33:40.822
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>they're playing video games in the basement, and we meet the skills. I agree.

00:33:40.902 --> 00:33:43.862
<v Leah>If I could just fan out with you for a second. In one of your

00:33:44.462 --> 00:33:49.082
<v Leah>talks, I forget which one, but you said, the coolest thing that made me actually

00:33:49.082 --> 00:33:52.202
<v Leah>change the way that I thought about the neurodivergent brain,

00:33:52.342 --> 00:33:56.002
<v Leah>which was, you know, if there were no autism genes in the gene pool,

00:33:56.082 --> 00:33:59.122
<v Leah>we'd still all just be socializing around a campfire. Yeah.

00:34:00.466 --> 00:34:05.106
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Yeah, that's right. I said that a long time ago. But who do you think designed the first sphere?

00:34:06.066 --> 00:34:09.006
<v Leah>Absolutely, a visual thinker, right? That makes sense.

00:34:09.206 --> 00:34:12.866
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>A visual thinker that's counting away at a block. I was just,

00:34:12.946 --> 00:34:14.786
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>she now must hope be a thinker.

00:34:15.066 --> 00:34:20.386
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I was just in London at the British Museum. I had like a 4,000-year-old hand

00:34:20.386 --> 00:34:23.086
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>axe that was chipped out of stone.

00:34:23.686 --> 00:34:25.726
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Not the main thing I thought they could get it.

00:34:26.586 --> 00:34:31.106
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If they fade out of the stone, chipping it.

00:34:32.166 --> 00:34:37.046
<v Leah>So you brought up eye contact right at the beginning, and I really just want

00:34:37.046 --> 00:34:39.326
<v Leah>to discuss this, not just with you, but with Moshe.

00:34:40.006 --> 00:34:43.546
<v Leah>And I think our listeners know what our viewpoint on this is,

00:34:43.626 --> 00:34:44.906
<v Leah>but I really want to drive it home.

00:34:46.046 --> 00:34:52.506
<v Leah>Why do people think eye contact is so important? And why is it just absolutely not important at all?

00:34:52.546 --> 00:34:55.986
<v Leah>And why is it actually harmful to autistic people? specifically?

00:34:56.266 --> 00:35:00.486
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, I think the problem is it causes sensory overload. If someone's forcing,

00:35:00.626 --> 00:35:06.546
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>perhaps I'm finding that when I'm in the environment, it's hard for me to look

00:35:06.546 --> 00:35:09.266
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>at the person's eye and hear at the same time.

00:35:09.786 --> 00:35:17.046
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If I kind of go around and if I just got to hear, I just got to concentrate on the hearing.

00:35:17.766 --> 00:35:22.586
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And the eye contact is forcing, you know, the multitasking at once.

00:35:22.886 --> 00:35:25.426
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>My program had no emphasis on eye contact.

00:35:25.946 --> 00:35:30.986
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>My program, teachers in the basement of a house emphasized speech and using

00:35:30.986 --> 00:35:37.406
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>my language on term-taking at things, teaching me how to give it a response.

00:35:38.926 --> 00:35:46.526
<v Leah>Absolutely. And then yeah, that's absolutely so much more useful than,

00:35:46.806 --> 00:35:52.766
<v Leah>like, what is this obsession, Moshe, you think, with neurotypical people and the eye contact thing?

00:35:53.486 --> 00:35:58.526
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, they think it's important, and I can do eye contact now.

00:36:00.340 --> 00:36:05.480
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But, you know, a lot of neurodiverse individuals, FFACA, where they support

00:36:05.480 --> 00:36:08.540
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the eye contact, it just doesn't, in a sense, know the world.

00:36:09.320 --> 00:36:18.260
<v Moshe>They have this conception that eye contact, same as touch, is connected to trust.

00:36:18.680 --> 00:36:21.620
<v Moshe>If you can't look someone in the eye, then you're not trustworthy.

00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.500
<v Moshe>If you can't shake someone's hand, then you're not trustworthy.

00:36:24.980 --> 00:36:26.180
<v Moshe>And I think that's not...

00:36:26.180 --> 00:36:31.900
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I'm going to have to shake hands. let's talk a little bit about defensive stuff.

00:36:32.860 --> 00:36:37.840
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If a kid doesn't like the sound of a vacuum cleaner, one of the things that

00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:41.000
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>can help that is have the kid turn that vacuum cleaner on and off.

00:36:41.220 --> 00:36:46.800
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>When they turn the noisy thing on and off, I've seen vacuum cleaners sort of

00:36:46.800 --> 00:36:53.740
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>favorite play things when the kid was allowed to control the machine and turn the noise on and off.

00:36:54.380 --> 00:37:00.020
<v Moshe>That's a brilliant thought. I wanted to switch gears a little bit, Dr. Grandin.

00:37:00.160 --> 00:37:05.120
<v Moshe>The first conversation that we had right back when we were sort of trying to

00:37:05.120 --> 00:37:12.040
<v Moshe>get you on the show, you talked to me a bit about your conception of how the

00:37:13.240 --> 00:37:17.360
<v Moshe>security line at the TSA in airports can be improved.

00:37:17.800 --> 00:37:20.540
<v Moshe>I'd like to hear your thoughts on that again.

00:37:20.760 --> 00:37:22.140
<v Leah>Let us sure we travel.

00:37:24.660 --> 00:37:28.540
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I'm sorry about interrupting. This is one of the problems I still will have

00:37:28.540 --> 00:37:30.100
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>a mature processor speed.

00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:33.660
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I have a hard time training when to move into a conversation.

00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.800
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I know it's rude and I still have a problem with that.

00:37:35.940 --> 00:37:40.560
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's so powerful. I've laid out a lot of title handling facilities.

00:37:41.120 --> 00:37:44.560
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And it's sort of like laying out title handling facilities. But the other problem.

00:37:44.560 --> 00:37:46.180
<v Moshe>That you see at airports

00:37:46.180 --> 00:37:49.920
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Is a lot of airports weren't originally built for the security lines,

00:37:50.120 --> 00:37:52.900
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>so they just have to make, kind of cobble something together,

00:37:52.920 --> 00:37:55.480
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>you know, that will work.

00:37:56.856 --> 00:38:03.516
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And sometimes, you know, they'll have to sit around things like columns that

00:38:03.516 --> 00:38:04.696
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>hold the roof of the coating up.

00:38:05.016 --> 00:38:07.776
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So you have to design around that. I don't have that same column that's done

00:38:07.776 --> 00:38:10.676
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>with cattle handling facility. You can't take the columns out of the building.

00:38:11.556 --> 00:38:13.696
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>People's going to have to go around them. Exactly.

00:38:14.316 --> 00:38:16.176
<v Leah>So if I can summarize...

00:38:16.176 --> 00:38:20.396
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It's sort of like laying out cattle handling facility and when you do new construction,

00:38:20.696 --> 00:38:24.076
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>it's much easier to lay out something that's much better.

00:38:24.776 --> 00:38:29.676
<v Leah>So if I can summarize your thinking that you can do for people at airports what

00:38:29.676 --> 00:38:34.316
<v Leah>you did for the cattle, to keep them calm and to keep them comfortable and to

00:38:34.316 --> 00:38:36.076
<v Leah>just make things run smoothly.

00:38:36.496 --> 00:38:39.796
<v Leah>Or not your thinking. I'm sure you know you can do this because you knew you

00:38:39.796 --> 00:38:44.396
<v Leah>can do that. But just to summarize for people who might not understand, like, the concept.

00:38:45.216 --> 00:38:52.516
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, I'm just thinking of the lines, how you set the lines up.

00:38:52.696 --> 00:38:53.256
<v Leah>Mm-hmm.

00:38:54.176 --> 00:38:57.056
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And, you know, I mean, sometimes they get really, really, really,

00:38:57.056 --> 00:38:58.736
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>really, super good with it.

00:38:59.156 --> 00:39:05.336
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Mm-hmm. And, you know, it's, you know, it's like I've seen things. Mm-hmm.

00:39:06.616 --> 00:39:09.796
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And one of the things that they want to talk about, they have to go to the very

00:39:09.796 --> 00:39:11.916
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>first section of your phone, so do you get pictures?

00:39:12.736 --> 00:39:17.116
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Oh, man, really the way you slide it, it's horrible. I think I could fix that.

00:39:18.596 --> 00:39:21.836
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I believe you could fix that. That's the kind of thing that I,

00:39:22.016 --> 00:39:23.896
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and these were things that I could fix.

00:39:25.916 --> 00:39:30.096
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You look at different things one thing I did with cattle when I first started,

00:39:30.136 --> 00:39:34.516
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I went to every feed yard in Arizona and I looked at cattle and I kind of took

00:39:34.516 --> 00:39:39.496
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>the good parts of the designs and put them together into new systems,

00:39:40.536 --> 00:39:44.436
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and threw out the bad bits of the design there are certain layouts that just

00:39:44.436 --> 00:39:50.356
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>don't work I mean one of the things now that I'm older is airport security,

00:39:51.496 --> 00:39:56.736
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>you know that I want a place to sit, you know, put shoes to act on.

00:39:57.236 --> 00:39:58.036
<v Leah>Oh, absolutely.

00:39:58.676 --> 00:39:59.096
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Yes.

00:39:59.276 --> 00:40:03.456
<v Leah>Airport security was very stressful for us when traveling with Avram because

00:40:03.456 --> 00:40:07.556
<v Leah>it was a bad experience for both Moshe and Avram because people are touching

00:40:07.556 --> 00:40:11.936
<v Leah>you and shoving you and you have to take items of clothing off and you have to take them on.

00:40:12.736 --> 00:40:17.256
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, one of the things, let's talk about how we get an autistic ticket to airport security.

00:40:17.536 --> 00:40:22.456
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>First of all, no surprises. And our TFA has good websites to sell all the procedures.

00:40:22.736 --> 00:40:24.316
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So there's no surprises.

00:40:25.196 --> 00:40:29.596
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And sometimes the guards are going to have to touch you, even if you don't set off a detector.

00:40:30.656 --> 00:40:32.756
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And if you even talk, then it happens.

00:40:33.757 --> 00:40:37.337
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But no surprises. Anything new like that, let's have no surprises.

00:40:37.797 --> 00:40:42.577
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The other thing I would do with the airport is work to make it interesting.

00:40:42.897 --> 00:40:44.417
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I said, I've never been on a plane.

00:40:45.097 --> 00:40:48.697
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I might walk to the airport and watch the plane step on. One of the things that

00:40:48.697 --> 00:40:53.357
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>TFA does do here is some airports, they'll do practice runs.

00:40:53.757 --> 00:40:56.517
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Or you can take the plane there and you can practice it.

00:40:58.097 --> 00:41:03.657
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So it's not a surprise. If you take anything new like that, it should not be a surprise.

00:41:04.097 --> 00:41:04.777
<v Leah>That's brilliant.

00:41:05.417 --> 00:41:05.997
<v Moshe>It is.

00:41:06.037 --> 00:41:10.337
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The other thing is make the whole experience interesting.

00:41:10.737 --> 00:41:13.457
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Now, can you imagine when you go up in an airplane, when it's going to be like,

00:41:13.497 --> 00:41:17.817
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>look out the window from above the cloud, and then you can look pictures up

00:41:17.817 --> 00:41:22.397
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>online at that kind of, make something new interesting.

00:41:22.897 --> 00:41:25.737
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I would have used to be afraid of flying because when I was a senior in high

00:41:25.737 --> 00:41:27.757
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>school, I was in a very scary emergency plan.

00:41:28.297 --> 00:41:33.377
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Right. And the way I got over that is I got to fly in a large airplane in the

00:41:33.377 --> 00:41:35.277
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>cockpit with a load of cattle.

00:41:36.037 --> 00:41:41.997
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And that made it interesting. I was in the cockpit. The staring thing was now interesting.

00:41:42.717 --> 00:41:45.277
<v Leah>Right. Change the content.

00:41:45.677 --> 00:41:46.777
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Stary and make it interesting.

00:41:47.237 --> 00:41:53.057
<v Moshe>When I was very little, my family used to winter. We were snowbirds,

00:41:53.217 --> 00:41:54.317
<v Moshe>so we used to winter in Florida.

00:41:55.057 --> 00:42:02.697
<v Moshe>And, of course, this was many, many years before the security changes of September 11th.

00:42:02.937 --> 00:42:07.937
<v Moshe>So in those days, the pilot was accessible.

00:42:08.117 --> 00:42:12.177
<v Moshe>The children could just walk right into the cockpit and talk to the pilot and

00:42:12.177 --> 00:42:16.017
<v Moshe>the co-pilot, and they usually give them a set of little wings and make them

00:42:16.017 --> 00:42:18.037
<v Moshe>honorary co-pilots for the plane.

00:42:18.037 --> 00:42:26.197
<v Moshe>And of course, because of security tightening up in the post 9-11 world,

00:42:26.557 --> 00:42:31.317
<v Moshe>I find that planes are a lot less accessible.

00:42:31.317 --> 00:42:38.297
<v Moshe>And especially if you're neurodiverse and you have a lot of fears or a lot of

00:42:38.297 --> 00:42:43.197
<v Moshe>oversensitivities, there's a lot less support on the plane because everyone's

00:42:43.197 --> 00:42:44.497
<v Moshe>so concerned with security.

00:42:44.497 --> 00:42:48.857
<v Moshe>And everyone has to stay seated and everyone has to know where they are and

00:42:48.857 --> 00:42:54.737
<v Moshe>they can't access the areas of the plane that could be compromised.

00:42:55.317 --> 00:42:58.497
<v Moshe>But you have these children that are especially on long flights.

00:42:58.517 --> 00:43:02.017
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The thing to do is explain, first of all, why they do this.

00:43:03.057 --> 00:43:08.057
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You see so that there's a reason for that. Now, that's a little too often for

00:43:08.057 --> 00:43:10.597
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>them to still see the cockpit when the board's,

00:43:11.314 --> 00:43:14.194
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>At least in the U.S. they can, just with little kids.

00:43:14.534 --> 00:43:15.894
<v Leah>Air Canada does that too.

00:43:16.074 --> 00:43:20.154
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Do they? Yeah. And also, you can look up all kinds of videos online and what

00:43:20.154 --> 00:43:23.214
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>cockpit you want. It's just all the elbow online.

00:43:24.134 --> 00:43:28.114
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But taking something that's scary, make it interesting.

00:43:28.834 --> 00:43:32.294
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I mean, I remember going on a plane after I'd had that very scary emergency

00:43:32.294 --> 00:43:35.894
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>landing, and when the plane put the gear down, and it was really loud,

00:43:35.954 --> 00:43:37.314
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I thought the bottom of the plane was gone.

00:43:37.674 --> 00:43:38.154
<v Leah>Mm-hmm.

00:43:39.714 --> 00:43:43.674
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I want to hear the sound of putting the wheels down. I don't want to land without wheels.

00:43:45.634 --> 00:43:50.474
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So if I learn, well, that sound means that the plane is putting its gear down.

00:43:50.534 --> 00:43:53.674
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>This was a fairly small plane. It only held like 20 passengers.

00:43:53.774 --> 00:43:54.834
<v Leah>Oof, that's scary.

00:43:55.574 --> 00:43:59.474
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It was a small plane. But when that thing put the gear down, it was really loud.

00:43:59.834 --> 00:44:04.154
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But if you learn more about it, I want to hear that when we're coming in for

00:44:04.154 --> 00:44:05.794
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>landing. I want the wheels down on the front.

00:44:06.554 --> 00:44:11.374
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If you learn about something, and it's plenty of videos and things online,

00:44:12.174 --> 00:44:19.574
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>you know, take something scary, make it interesting, and then reasons for why things are done.

00:44:19.934 --> 00:44:23.574
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>We have to keep the plane safe. That's why we have these procedures.

00:44:24.574 --> 00:44:29.834
<v Leah>Exactly. Explain the security procedures. Explain why. I mean, for some reason.

00:44:29.834 --> 00:44:33.694
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's why you have it. You see, and that, it's not just arbitrary.

00:44:34.014 --> 00:44:35.274
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>There's a reason for that.

00:44:36.734 --> 00:44:40.874
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Same thing, but let's say a kid's going to go on a school bus for the first time.

00:44:42.374 --> 00:44:47.594
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, it'd be nice to see the bus or we see a few of it, so it's not because

00:44:47.594 --> 00:44:50.654
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>you're a grown-up kid now and you're going to be taking the school bus to school.

00:44:51.014 --> 00:44:53.274
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You would handle that exactly the same way.

00:44:53.954 --> 00:45:00.854
<v Leah>So do you think in general a very good approach to raising a neurodivergent child is no secrets?

00:45:02.240 --> 00:45:05.860
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Just honesty. So if they ask... It's better than saying no secret,

00:45:06.060 --> 00:45:09.560
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>no surprise. Right. No sudden surprises.

00:45:10.000 --> 00:45:13.520
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Like they need to know that God sometimes touches you, sometimes don't.

00:45:13.840 --> 00:45:16.840
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, we've got videos where you can look that up and you can show it to you.

00:45:17.060 --> 00:45:18.020
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You can practice it at home.

00:45:19.320 --> 00:45:20.500
<v Leah>So just honesty.

00:45:20.620 --> 00:45:25.480
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>No surprises. No surprises. Another thing is giving some choice.

00:45:25.480 --> 00:45:30.900
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I talked to a parent the other day where their nine-year-old autistic kid refused

00:45:30.900 --> 00:45:33.320
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>to put his cell phone in the x-ray machine.

00:45:33.540 --> 00:45:34.760
<v Leah>Well, you have to do that.

00:45:35.060 --> 00:45:38.760
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, the way a mother would have handled that, let's say it was maybe a four-day

00:45:38.760 --> 00:45:41.120
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>trip, a short trip, because you have a choice.

00:45:41.580 --> 00:45:44.880
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You can leave your phone at home, then you won't have it on a trip,

00:45:44.920 --> 00:45:48.100
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>or you have a choice of what you put it in.

00:45:48.880 --> 00:45:53.720
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Our security has the dishes you can put the phone in, or you can put it inside

00:45:53.720 --> 00:45:55.460
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>your bag. There's some choices.

00:45:55.940 --> 00:46:00.660
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Leave it at home, put it in a dish, or put it in your bag.

00:46:02.240 --> 00:46:04.400
<v Leah>That's actually quite the... There's certain things

00:46:04.400 --> 00:46:08.500
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>We have to comply, but there are some choices, what you put in it,

00:46:08.560 --> 00:46:11.040
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>for example. And that gives the kids some control.

00:46:11.680 --> 00:46:15.340
<v Leah>Right. So my understanding, and it's also my understanding as well,

00:46:15.480 --> 00:46:22.140
<v Leah>is that the inclination to protect your no-divergent child from everything and

00:46:22.140 --> 00:46:25.460
<v Leah>keep them from the realities of everything is the wrong approach.

00:46:26.180 --> 00:46:29.400
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Absolutely. No, what we do if we're going to be doing airports for the first time,

00:46:31.940 --> 00:46:35.480
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>is if they don't have the thing where you can practice or the airport's too

00:46:35.480 --> 00:46:38.580
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>far away to do that, then you look up everything online.

00:46:39.700 --> 00:46:42.280
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And it's all kinds of videos they can watch.

00:46:44.040 --> 00:46:46.920
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I mean, let's say they're going on a plane for the first time.

00:46:47.020 --> 00:46:51.640
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I remember my very first flight, I was going to go on and my flight's a cool

00:46:51.640 --> 00:46:53.120
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>book when I ended up going by car.

00:46:55.420 --> 00:46:57.860
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But, you know, tell them, well, you'll get up above the clouds.

00:46:58.120 --> 00:46:59.680
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Imagine how cool that tunnel up.

00:47:00.660 --> 00:47:03.880
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Make sure they have a window seat. I don't think we're going to get down to window seats.

00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:05.660
<v Moshe>I always had to have a window seat.

00:47:06.340 --> 00:47:09.420
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>They need to be looking out the window. I'm not called.

00:47:09.800 --> 00:47:13.680
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>On a flight, it's a seven-year-old kid on that glued to a computer with a shade

00:47:13.680 --> 00:47:15.700
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>down. Never looked out the window once.

00:47:16.520 --> 00:47:21.420
<v Leah>Right. So life is just passing people by now while they're numbing the...

00:47:21.420 --> 00:47:26.540
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've been on planes with every window faded down. We have a dark gloomy point.

00:47:27.500 --> 00:47:33.220
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And when I get on, I get early bored, I open the ceiling up and hope I have

00:47:33.220 --> 00:47:36.740
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>an aisle to be left open. Sometimes it is, sometimes it's not, but,

00:47:38.961 --> 00:47:42.801
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It takes new things, but the basic principle is no surprises.

00:47:44.161 --> 00:47:45.041
<v Leah>I love that.

00:47:45.041 --> 00:47:46.001
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>No surprises.

00:47:47.561 --> 00:47:53.321
<v Leah>No surprises. We have to actually maybe do an episode on that completely. It's a great concept.

00:47:53.761 --> 00:47:58.181
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>No surprises. And then there's problems that can happen, like one of the first things.

00:47:59.641 --> 00:48:06.081
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And they can't be late because they have to fly around the thunderstorms.

00:48:06.981 --> 00:48:09.621
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>See, the more stuff you just sort of learn about how it works,

00:48:10.281 --> 00:48:12.881
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>then interest. Make something interesting.

00:48:14.701 --> 00:48:17.241
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You make it interesting, things rest scary.

00:48:17.541 --> 00:48:19.961
<v Leah>And then when it happens, they'll know. They'll be like, okay,

00:48:20.061 --> 00:48:21.761
<v Leah>I understand. This is what we talked about.

00:48:22.141 --> 00:48:25.101
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I understand. Flight was canceled. We're going to have to rebook.

00:48:25.401 --> 00:48:28.981
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And we have to spend a night in the airport, which I've done. Oh, my goodness.

00:48:29.941 --> 00:48:34.201
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Not fun. I'll play with the big, big surprise. was 3 o'clock in the morning

00:48:34.201 --> 00:48:36.241
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and brought out these giant floor polishers.

00:48:36.421 --> 00:48:38.261
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Then I could forget about sleeping.

00:48:38.741 --> 00:48:40.701
<v Leah>That was not a pleasant surprise.

00:48:40.801 --> 00:48:43.761
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I loved these wonderful things at the Chicago Air Force.

00:48:44.561 --> 00:48:45.941
<v Leah>Not a pleasant surprise.

00:48:47.101 --> 00:48:50.381
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, I just laid out on foot and seats.

00:48:50.781 --> 00:48:54.481
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Jess is going to sleep and they brought these things out. They were huge things

00:48:54.481 --> 00:48:56.841
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>that people rode on. Hmm.

00:48:57.281 --> 00:49:00.801
<v Moshe>I remember very well.

00:49:01.321 --> 00:49:01.421
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Yeah.

00:49:01.421 --> 00:49:02.681
<v Leah>Yeah, got it.

00:49:03.601 --> 00:49:08.821
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But even when you go to the airport, you know, like, you know,

00:49:08.861 --> 00:49:11.261
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>they can watch the plane coming in.

00:49:12.301 --> 00:49:14.861
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I could. Yeah, I did that.

00:49:15.201 --> 00:49:20.001
<v Moshe>I did. Like, we would just sit there and watch the planes take off and land and take off and land.

00:49:20.901 --> 00:49:22.241
<v Leah>I mean, well, I don't know.

00:49:22.901 --> 00:49:26.821
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's something you can do just about anywhere is go watch planes take off and land.

00:49:27.361 --> 00:49:28.501
<v Leah>That makes them interesting.

00:49:28.921 --> 00:49:30.121
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That makes them interesting.

00:49:31.480 --> 00:49:35.700
<v Leah>Makes them interesting, makes them fun. All right, well, do you have any final things?

00:49:35.780 --> 00:49:39.240
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I would do the same approach with the school bus. Right.

00:49:39.460 --> 00:49:43.800
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>The same approach with going to a new school. It would be ideal if the kid could

00:49:43.800 --> 00:49:45.700
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>visit the new school before they went there.

00:49:46.020 --> 00:49:50.460
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>If that's not possible, then I'd look at the website, learn as much about it,

00:49:51.040 --> 00:49:54.200
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>maybe some of the fun courses or things they do at that school,

00:49:54.440 --> 00:49:56.900
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>so the kid would look forward to going to the new school.

00:49:57.600 --> 00:50:01.060
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I would take the same approach with the new school as I would with an airplane.

00:50:01.680 --> 00:50:04.940
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Or let's say we're going to, you know, let's say something fun, you're on a Disneyland.

00:50:05.920 --> 00:50:11.980
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, let's look at all the stuff we can do. You're going to kick something out the food there.

00:50:12.600 --> 00:50:18.860
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>No, let's always try to take some choices and some control, like going back to the ferry.

00:50:19.220 --> 00:50:21.780
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Yes, I was going to go on that ferry, absolutely.

00:50:22.240 --> 00:50:26.040
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But I could ride downstairs. At least in the morning. Under the deck in the

00:50:26.040 --> 00:50:27.660
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>cabin. That was the accommodation.

00:50:28.600 --> 00:50:32.120
<v Moshe>Dr. Grannon, we have to wrap it up.

00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:37.120
<v Moshe>Could you tell us what you're working on right now?

00:50:37.280 --> 00:50:40.700
<v Moshe>You mentioned that you're working on a book.

00:50:41.300 --> 00:50:46.200
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, I just started working on some revisions, and one of the things I'm really

00:50:46.200 --> 00:50:51.160
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>putting in there, is just high expectations with some accommodations.

00:50:51.540 --> 00:50:53.800
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Let's take clothes that itch, for example.

00:50:54.240 --> 00:50:58.240
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, let's find clothes that don't itch. Another thing to do is wash all the

00:50:58.240 --> 00:51:01.760
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>things that go against your skin. I'm underwear that doesn't itch.

00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:05.920
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You know, I have to make some accommodations. I buy pants at Walmart,

00:51:06.500 --> 00:51:10.160
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and I wash them three times before they're good enough for a long airplane trip.

00:51:10.700 --> 00:51:14.120
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's something we'll still do now. That doesn't mean that the child has to

00:51:14.120 --> 00:51:17.480
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>be wearing butt pants all day. No. And give them some choices.

00:51:17.740 --> 00:51:19.800
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You can go in the store and get some choices.

00:51:21.000 --> 00:51:24.660
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And you are going to wear shoes. You might have some choices.

00:51:25.180 --> 00:51:26.780
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>I've always tried to give some choices.

00:51:27.780 --> 00:51:34.320
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>In things here. So I had a petticoat that itched.

00:51:34.540 --> 00:51:38.800
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>But what was done was to take the undershirt, tuck it into my underpants.

00:51:39.040 --> 00:51:44.160
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>So the petticoat waistband did not touch my skin. That's a very simple accommodation.

00:51:44.580 --> 00:51:46.400
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It worked. I was accepted to wear that.

00:51:47.340 --> 00:51:50.700
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>It is. I had on underwear that protected me.

00:51:51.200 --> 00:51:56.100
<v Leah>It is, but it's so important that the child or the adult in question is able

00:51:56.100 --> 00:52:01.720
<v Leah>to express that. Moshe doesn't like certain pillowcases, but he didn't express

00:52:01.720 --> 00:52:04.960
<v Leah>that for a while, and he would just sort of toss a turn and say, what's wrong?

00:52:05.040 --> 00:52:07.940
<v Leah>And he'd say, I don't like those pillowcases, and so why didn't you say so?

00:52:08.020 --> 00:52:12.060
<v Leah>And he said, I didn't know that I could say that. Well, you said a different pillowcase. Exactly.

00:52:12.680 --> 00:52:15.160
<v Leah>So I said, honey, let's change your pillowcase.

00:52:15.380 --> 00:52:19.300
<v Moshe>Some accommodations are unacceptable and some are not.

00:52:19.640 --> 00:52:22.380
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Well, a different pillowcase, that's a simple accommodation.

00:52:22.920 --> 00:52:23.560
<v Moshe>For sure.

00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:25.640
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>You're not replacing the entire bag.

00:52:27.040 --> 00:52:27.280
<v Moshe>No.

00:52:27.980 --> 00:52:31.640
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That you are replacing a pillowcase that goes against your skin.

00:52:32.100 --> 00:52:35.780
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's the same approach that was used with me with his petticoat,

00:52:35.800 --> 00:52:40.580
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>but if I had a little cotton undershirt, I could tuck into the underpants,

00:52:40.660 --> 00:52:45.520
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>and then the petticoat didn't actually touch my skin around my waist.

00:52:46.160 --> 00:52:50.960
<v Leah>So now it is this unphilical accommodating that affects nothing in our life.

00:52:51.120 --> 00:52:55.020
<v Leah>And when we go shopping for sheep, I make him stick his finger in the package,

00:52:55.020 --> 00:52:56.780
<v Leah>and I say, is this okay? And he goes, yes.

00:52:58.120 --> 00:53:02.840
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>That's it That's all you have to do You're making some accommodation Exactly

00:53:02.840 --> 00:53:06.900
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>We figure out how to do it Because if we did not go on If I did not go on the

00:53:06.900 --> 00:53:09.200
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>ferry I wouldn't have been able to go on vacation,

00:53:10.316 --> 00:53:15.236
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>No, the answer to the thing is you are going on that ferry, but we're going

00:53:15.236 --> 00:53:18.796
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>to make an accommodation for you to sit away from the horn.

00:53:19.436 --> 00:53:22.416
<v Moshe>And that's a great thought to close on.

00:53:22.596 --> 00:53:29.836
<v Moshe>The idea that something as simple as just changing the place that you sit allows

00:53:29.836 --> 00:53:35.296
<v Moshe>you to have doors open for you and go from there.

00:53:35.496 --> 00:53:40.576
<v Moshe>Dr. Grandin, thank you so much for coming on with us today. I really appreciate

00:53:40.576 --> 00:53:42.396
<v Moshe>it. It was wonderful to talk

00:53:42.396 --> 00:53:45.656
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>To you today. I hope I gave you some good ideas.

00:53:45.836 --> 00:53:50.096
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>And I think people might like my book, Visual Thinking, I give you gifts to

00:53:50.096 --> 00:53:52.616
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>people who bring pictures, patterns, and abstractions.

00:53:52.936 --> 00:53:55.176
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>There's lots of stuff in there on getting jobs.

00:53:55.716 --> 00:54:00.116
<v Moshe>Well, we'll post the links to your books. And thank you so much,

00:54:00.216 --> 00:54:01.696
<v Moshe>Dr. Grandin. It was such a pleasure.

00:54:02.576 --> 00:54:06.896
<v Dr. Temple Grandin>Okay. Wonderful to talk to you. Have a nice day. Okay. Bye. Bye.

00:54:10.960 --> 00:54:16.400
<v Music>

00:54:15.456 --> 00:54:20.116
<v Moshe>Well, that's the end of our episode. And now you know one autistic just a little bit better.

00:54:20.696 --> 00:54:24.896
<v Moshe>Now, something you may not know about some autistics is that we often struggle

00:54:24.896 --> 00:54:26.696
<v Moshe>with ending social interactions.

00:54:27.496 --> 00:54:28.876
<v Moshe>So, Leia?

00:54:29.596 --> 00:54:34.236
<v Leah>It's okay, Moshe. I'll take care of it. Thank you for listening to Now You Know

00:54:34.236 --> 00:54:35.956
<v Leah>One Autistic. See you next week.