Emotional Labor: The Unspoken Challenge of Neurodivergent Love

Episode Title: Emotional Labor: The Unspoken Challenge of Neurodivergent Love

Episode Number: 18

Release Date: July 21, 2024

Duration: 01:05:42

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah delve into the concept of emotional labor, exploring its impact on neurodivergent individuals. They discuss the challenges of masking, navigating social interactions, and fulfilling the emotional expectations of others. The conversation also touches on the importance of setting boundaries, communication strategies, and the unique experiences of neurodiverse couples.

Key Takeaways:

• Emotional Labor and Masking: Neurodivergent individuals often engage in emotional labor by masking their true feelings and expressions to conform to societal expectations. This can be exhausting and lead to burnout.
• Communication Challenges: Neurodiverse individuals may struggle with interpreting social cues, understanding unspoken expectations, and engaging in small talk. This can create difficulties in both personal and professional relationships.
• Setting Boundaries: Establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries is crucial for neurodivergent individuals to protect their emotional well-being and prevent burnout.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The concept of emotional labor and its impact on neurodivergent individuals.
• The challenges of masking and navigating social interactions.
• Strategies for setting boundaries and communicating effectively.
• The unique experiences of neurodiverse couples and families.

Quotes:

• "Emotional labor is the unpaid and often undervalued support, care, and comfort we give to others at the expense of our own comfort." - Leah
• "The idea of having to assume a role in society where we have to take on the emotional labor of just living a life is challenging. It's taxing. It's exhausting." - Moshe
• "The only way that you can know what's going on is by inviting a reciprocal reaction." - Moshe

Connect with Us:

Website: Our Homepage!

Facebook: Subscribe to Our Facebook Page!

Instagram: Follow us on Instagram!

TikTok: Check Us Out On TikTok!

Subscribe & Review:

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast and click the Like button! Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and improve the show.

Transcript:

[00:08] Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic.

[00:10] Leah: I'm Leah, and I'm boring. Welcome to the now, you know, one autistic podcast.

[00:16] Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect one autistic and one layout and don't necessarily reflect the entire autistic community.

[00:25] Leah: Let's get to it.

[00:32] Moshe: Hey, Leah.

[00:33] Leah: Hi, Moshe.

[00:34] Moshe: How are you today?

[00:35] Leah: I'm all right. How are you?

[00:37] Moshe: I'm doing good. It feels so lonely today. It's our first week in a little while where we don't have guests, and it's just back to you and I.

[00:46] Leah: Well, you know me. I'm always happy to spend time alone with you.

[00:50] Moshe: Well, I'm happy to spend time alone with you, too.

[00:52] Leah: So, what's the topic today? It's funny that I'm asking you, because I actually did all the research, but.

[00:58] Moshe: You tell everyone you did the research, but we have to do the appropriate banter. What's the topic today, Moshe? Well, the topic today is emotional labor. Tell us about emotional labor.

[01:11] Leah: Right. So, emotional labor, it's a very interesting concept. It's a very vague concept. It's one of those subtle things that people on the spectrum might actually have trouble understanding. So maybe you can explain it from your perspective throughout the podcast. That would be helpful. So, emotional labor, the definition that I found. It's the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfill the emotional requirements of a job. Now, that is in reference to workplace emotional labor. So, picture being in customer service and having a very rude person yelling in your face, and you have to serve them from beginning to end with a smile on your face and not hit back and not tell them how you're feeling about what they're doing. And you just have to smile and sell them their, I don't know, luggage or underwear or whatever it is that they're yelling at you about and wait for them to go.

[02:07] Moshe: Exactly. So that is something that both you and I deal with on a regular basis, because our, I guess you could call it day job, is in customer service, and we're both quite good at it. But you are far more practiced at the appearing to care portion of it.

[02:28] Leah: The reality of the situation is, in order to be very good at customer service, you have to both not care, not actually put any of your emotional labor on the line, but also have canned answers that make it sound like you care. So it's more like a puzzle. He says this, I say that. He says this, I say that, you know, like the keyword this, I respond. That policy is ba ba ba ba.

[02:56] Moshe: Right.

[02:56] Leah: I'm really sorry to hear that. I don't care about hearing that. But if I did, if I cared deeply about every call, it would just emotionally wreck me, I think.

[03:05] Moshe: Exactly. And for me, that's a little bit more challenging because I have a. I still struggle, at least a little bit, depending on how I'm feeling, maybe sometimes a lot with the pretending that I care or that I'm interested. But the flip side for that is that when I actually do care, it comes across in spades, because I often struggled, not so much now these days, but when I was younger and less aware of how to mask. I guess with only being able to do jobs, I had a lot of trouble with doing any job that I didn't like or I didn't believe in or I didn't understand. The whole idea of faking it until you made it didn't really occur to me. Now I'm a lot better at it, but I did have. I had a few moments, like, I'll come forward and say that I had a few rough calls where, intentionally or unintentionally, I may have come across as a little bit abrasive.

[04:21] Leah: Short.

[04:21] Moshe: Short, abrasive. Lacking any consideration. And it's been sort of a common theme for me. And unfortunately, in a past job, I ended up. I don't know. I don't like to use the g word, but I made certain people feel like maybe they were not seeing what they thought they were seeing because it was either something that they didn't understand or that they couldn't believe. I remember I had a supervisor once that I didn't particularly care for. And whenever he would talk to me, I would roll my eyes unconsciously. And he wrote me up for it. He wrote me up for it.

[05:07] Leah: I don't know that that's the thing. I've been a supervisor, and I don't know that rolled his eyes is a thing you can genuinely write someone up for. So that's a thing that probably should have been checked by upper management.

[05:17] Moshe: Well, he said that I was being disrespectful to him. He was very much about professionalism, and I'm also about professionalism. So to me, it was, I won't say shopping, because I know that I did do it and I still do it sometimes, but I ended up sort of putting him in a position where I was like, okay, so you say I roll my eyes, so show me. Because we had video cameras everywhere. I'm like, all right, so show me on tape. When you went on an occasion where I rolled my eyes, and for a while, I actually had him looking at tapes, trying to find the exact moment when I. It happened. And then I think his manager, the general manager of the center that I was working in, told him to just sort of back off and accept that it wasn't happening. And one day I was in his office, and he said, you totally roll your eyes at him all the time. I'm like, yeah, I know.

[06:09] Leah: Yeah.

[06:10] Moshe: So he's like, just try to.

[06:12] Leah: Try to cut it out, calm it down. Yeah, I get that. So, ultimately, if I had to put it into a few words, emotional labor essentially equals putting your own comfort aside to fulfill the emotional needs of other people.

[06:29] Moshe: Right. But it's not just about jobs, right? It's about relationships, which is what this. This episode is actually about.

[06:35] Leah: So the job thing was, like, top of the list, right. Because that's where most people have to struggle with that, I would suppose. But in relationships, it is the unhealthy work of regulating your own emotions to please others. This is often, but not always, disproportionately performed by women. So think of the woman who has to hang out with her mother in law that she doesn't particularly like, and then she has to go to a restaurant that she doesn't want to because her husband wants to, and then she has to call and make doctor's appointments for everybody, and then she has to go to work, and then she has to get off of work, and somebody lost their bubble bob, and she has to go find it. Or she's the only one who can sing the song properly to the toddler so that they'll go to sleep, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. So picture, like, every sitcom mom that you've ever seen, and that's what they're talking about in terms of labor. Like, that is disproportionately done traditionally. Not always don't come for me by women, right.

[07:40] Moshe: And this kind of lends itself to the idea that mother or wife are.

[07:45] Leah: Actually job titles and also sometimes code for slave.

[07:51] Moshe: Right. And as the evolution of society, at least certain societies have happened and the advent of things like the feminist movement, there have been a lot more men who end up in positions where they are house husbands and fathers. I was for a long time, a single father, and I encountered a great deal of the expectation that I had to be a parent and an employee and a friend of which is no small task for neurotypical. But when you have someone who is neurodivergent and struggles to multitask and emote at the best of times, putting me in a position where I have to fill multiple roles that require multiple things. I have to take my hat off if I was wearing one, take my kipa off. Maybe to you. And to all women who have to do a lot of different jobs with a smile, even though they're exhausted and tired and frustrated and have no interest in doing a lot of the roles that they do, especially after working their day job.

[09:08] Leah: But let's put aside your neurodivergence for a second. I know that's hard, but just your gender in terms of being a single dad got you so much credit that a woman wouldn't get and that honestly, ultimately, you maybe didn't deserve. Because whenever you'd screw up, everybody, well, he's a single dad. He's just doing his best, right? Or think about a dad bringing home a bucket of fried chicken versus a mom bringing home a bucket of fried chicken. When dad brings home a bucket of fried chicken, he's fun. Dad, he got the kids takeout. Let's. Let's have a fun, you know, whatever. When mom brings home a bucket of fried chicken, she's lazy. Mom, where are the vegetables? How come she didn't make a salad to go along with it?

[09:50] Moshe: It's definitely a sexist expectation where a father, whether he's in a role as one of two parents or whether he's a single parent, the expectations are simply not there. The bare minimum is sort of applauded. Whereas a woman who is in the same role as a mother, not always, of course, but a lot of the time, in my experience, is treated like she's falling short.

[10:17] Leah: But that's the reality. I'm not trying to rain on your parade because I'm so proud of you for everything you did. But again, remove the nerve divergence from the situation. If you did the bare minimum that's expected of me, you would have gotten a father of the year award. Like, you would have had women throwing themselves at you, and everybody would have said what a great dad you are. And I. And, you know, it's bare minimum that's expected of me. And you did. You got it all the time. Even now, when you're like, you know, the child that I raised on my own is doing the wrong, blah, blah, blah. People are like, you tried your best.

[10:49] Moshe: Yes, you tried your best. And for me, that's not enough. And what, I also got a lot of the time as well. You know, it's. Where's the mother? Shouldn't the mother be doing this?

[11:04] Leah: You still get that sometimes you try to take things off my plate, and you interact with people. I'm like, where's your wife? Can I talk to your wife?

[11:11] Moshe: I used to get that all the time. We used to joke, especially when we re entered the more traditional society, becoming more orthodox in our Judaism.

[11:21] Leah: Remember when you tried to go to the bakery on a Friday?

[11:24] Moshe: Yes, we used to frequent, before we came to Israel, we used to frequently the orthodox jewish section of Montreal in Utremont. And there's a really nice bakery there. I mean, they're called huskies. They're not sponsoring us, although you should check.

[11:43] Leah: Hey, huskies, you should sponsor us.

[11:46] Moshe: Yes, huskies is wonderful. If you do ever find yourself in the mile end area of outrema in.

[11:52] Leah: Montreal on park in Bernard.

[11:54] Moshe: It's on Parc in Bernard. It's a wonderful kosher bakery, but it's in a predominantly orthodox jewish neighborhood. Traditionally, they're called haredi, and sometimes they're referred to as ultra Orthodox, which never made sense. And I would show up there and try to buy cookies and sweets on.

[12:13] Leah: Fridays, because between Friday and Saturday, Friday night and Saturday night, we're not allowed to cook. So on Thursdays or Fridays, we'd go there to buy all of our challah, which is, you know, traditional bread, and we'd buy cookies, and we'd buy pastries, and we'd buy cheesecakes and everything that we needed for the weekend. And one time I was. I don't know what, I was doing something with the kids, maybe you were.

[12:33] Moshe: Doing something with the kids, and you're like, could you just run out to huskies and pick up, like, the cookies.

[12:37] Leah: And call out for a Shabbat and stuff? And then what happened?

[12:41] Moshe: So I went up and I bought our usual fare, and the women behind the counter were like, where's your wife today? Like, she's at home. Does she know you're buying all of this? I hope she's okay with. With all the stuff that you're buying. I'm like, I'm sure she's fine. They're like, do you have a shopping list? Are you sure you need this many cookies? Like, do you think you should maybe call her? You want to call her? You should call her. Why don't you call her? Let her know just so she knows. Because we'd hate for you to go, like, bring home something that you shouldn't be. And that is not seen as sexist. It's just the way it is, because women do.

[13:20] Leah: But that is an example of the emotional labor that's expected of women.

[13:24] Moshe: Right?

[13:24] Leah: Because she literally expected you to interrupt the. Whatever I was doing that I can't remember now to call me to ask if it's okay to buy three pounds of cookies instead of two pounds of cookies, right?

[13:34] Moshe: And they kind of looked at me going, don't you, shouldn't you be in synagogue? Like, where's your wife? Like, we know what you're for. Like, why aren't you doing your role? Like, what happened to her? Are you not married?

[13:45] Leah: Like it was. It's a whole thing. Anyway, you get the point, right? So again, disproportionately performed by women mostly. But this is where sort of this episode is going. Because when you add neurodivergence to the mix, a lot of times the gender stuff doesn't matter as much.

[14:03] Moshe: Right?

[14:04] Leah: So again, another definition that I found, it's the unpaid and often undervalued support, care and comfort we give to others at the expense of our own comfort. Now, right away, right off the bat, Moshe, what did you say to me? That, that sounds like, I said that.

[14:22] Moshe: That sounds very much like what autistics and other neurodivergents go through every day.

[14:28] Leah: And they call it masking. Yes, that's. I thought that immediately as well. So this was also in reference to the study that I found about women doing disproportionate amounts of work. But the second I read this definition, I went, that's masking. So then I went on a search for any studies or any articles that I could find about neurodivergence and emotional labor and the emotional labor that they have to put in. And, you know, I found not one official study, I found not one official article, even from the UK, which usually has the best content. All I found was people on their own personal blogs or their own personal podcasts or their own personal posts trying to express the emotional labor that they put into every day just to try to fit into the world, right?

[15:19] Moshe: And it's very difficult to express, especially if they don't fully understand. And by they, I mean the world at large understands what, what autistics and other neurodivergents have to go through on a regular basis. And of course, I can't speak for every autistic, hence the name of the podcast now, you know, one autistic little plug there, because for me, but also for quite a few of us, the idea of having to assume a role in society where we have to take on the emotional labor of just living a life is challenging. It's taxing. It's exhausting. And a lot of the time, it comes across as fake. And I'll call back to one of our earlier episodes about the uncanny valley of autism. And this is really what we're talking about is for people like me or like other autistics that have to take on so much emotional heavy lifting when, especially when they're not necessarily that proficient in masking yet, or it's really something that they're sort of fighting an internal battle against. This is where you sort of see the person and you look at them and go, wow, that doesn't seem quite right. Do you think he looks a little bit off? Is there something wrong with him? And the school picture is a good, oh, the all teeth and no, the autistic smile. Like people have described it. Like, if you tried to explain to an alien what a smile looks like, they would kind of do the whole, you know, so I'm supposed to poke my teeth out and then I'm supposed to sort of crinkle my eyes. And this is what a smile is, right? And that's sort of where you get that. And that is emotional labor on a very small scale. And what will happen a lot of the time in schools, especially if your child is not diagnosed, is people have written on a lot of forums that I go to because Reddit and Facebook and all that stuff. And a mom once wrote on one of the Facebook groups that I go to that a teacher wrote home, a letter that she sent home with my son, who's in, like, grade one or grade two. And the teacher says, I don't think your son knows how to smile. And that struck me as, does that.

[17:48] Leah: Help him learn math or reading? I don't understand.

[17:51] Moshe: And it's very surface. It's very weird. And the parent was like, doesn't know how to. Like, what does that have to do with anything? It's like, you know, how do you even describe that? And that is essentially where. Where it starts. And in my case, unfortunately, as much as I try to avoid it, I've had to disclose it at certain jobs and at my current job that I am autistic, not as an excuse, because I don't want to come across that I'm using my autism as a way of avoiding responsibility for my actions. There is a bit of a double standard there. It's neither here nor there. And when I've had a series of unfortunate calls where I've had supervisors come to me and say, you know, you're just. You really need to start working on how you're coming across to people.

[18:48] Leah: But it's one of those things that they can't quite pinpoint. They're like, you're sort of aggressive. You're not really rude. You didn't really say anything, but it's just like a vibe. And if I could. This actually brings up a story that I was told several times about my ex spouse, actually. And I don't think that they would mind me sharing this one. When they were small, in kindergarten, their father, who's passed away, his memory be for a blessing, was called into the kindergarten, and he had to take the day off work because they said, your son is weird. And he said, what do you mean weird? And they said, we don't know. We can't explain it. We don't know what to do with him. He's just so weird. So he took the day off work and he sat in the kindergarten class. And this was a brilliant man, by the way. Like, cutting edge computer scientist, really smart dude. My father in law, not my ex. And he sat there in the kindergarten class, and he missed a whole day of work observing his child and observing all the children around him. And at the end, he said, I don't see anything wrong. I don't see that he's doing anything that the other kids aren't doing developmentally. There's nothing going on there. And the teacher was just like, mmm. And then that was the end of that.

[20:11] Moshe: And there's a significant bias there. And, I mean, withholding all my feelings, good or bad, about your ex, and it's quite an interesting situation. And with respect to that, you sure know how to pick them. But I had the same exact experience when I was in kindergarten where my teacher, her name was Frances, most definitely long since passed away because she was relatively old when I was five, and I'm significantly older than five right now, said, I don't. I don't know what to do with him. Like, he doesn't want to take part in anything that we're doing. He doesn't want to engage with the other kids. He doesn't want to play with them. He just takes his things and goes off on his own, and he's having a great time. And my mother said, well, is he happy? She goes, yeah, he's fine. He's just happy playing on his own, but he doesn't want to play with the other kids.

[21:06] Leah: But at least, you see, that was something to say. That was a developmental milestone. She noticed you weren't reaching. And she brought up to your mom, which was your mom's fault. She brought. Dropped the ball there. But what they said to my passed away ex father in law is, he's just weird. We don't know. That's not useful at all. That's just really the bias of the uncanny valley. And in terms of I know how to pick them. The only reason that I could tell you that I prefer neurodivergent people in general is because of the honesty thing.

[21:36] Moshe: And the honesty thing actually brings up a very important point. When you get into the whole concept of the unpaid, late, and often undervalued support, care, and comfort we give to others at the expense of our own comfort, you really end up heading down a path that identifies a really big deficiency and challenge when it comes to neurodivergence. In an earlier episode, I can't remember which one, so you'll have to listen to all of them. I discussed the similarities between autism spectrum disorder, ASD, and Williams syndrome. But if you research Williams syndrome and autism spectrum disorder, and I think, although it is a bit sort of off off center when it comes to parallel development, things like Trisomy 21 down syndrome, you end up with a person who is either incapable or lacking the ability to understand deception. Because if you think about the expression of information in the form of speaking to someone, the idea of lying to someone is actually a very complex idea.

[22:46] Leah: It is. And that's how I ultimately end up forming very close bonds with neurodivergence. You probably installed that in me because you're my oldest friend, I think, who's neurodivergent? But it's because neurotypical people will not say what they mean. They won't mean what they say. They play games, they do this, they do that. Whereas a neurodivergent person will just be sort of straight up honest with you. It was easier for me to form.

[23:09] Moshe: Bonds with neurodivergent people, and that is the charming, I guess, aspect of conversations that you and I have had, especially when we're out in public, where they'll say to me, Moshe, what do you think? And you'll be like, you don't want to know what he thinks, because he'll tell you the truth.

[23:25] Leah: Absolutely. But it cuts both ways. I always know that you're telling me the truth, like when I ask you a question or when we're talking about something important, but at the same time, instead of you saying something like, oh, honey, did you get too much sun? Your face looks a little red, you'd be like, what's wrong with your face? Like, they're sort of lacking the whatever. But I prefer that just personally speaking.

[23:47] Moshe: I mean, it can be very charming to be with someone who is so brutally honest that they'll always tell you how they feel. And if you enter cultures like in Israel or a lot of parts of Asia, it doesn't seem to be like, unless you can buy into the premise that every single person in certain countries is autistic, it doesn't seem to be a thing that's universal. It's definitely something that western culture teaches us, that we have to tone down the rhetoric.

[24:19] Leah: Absolutely.

[24:20] Moshe: We have to sugarcoat. We have to be nice.

[24:21] Leah: In Israel. Everybody's very histrionic and very direct. They're hysterically screaming all the time, and they're very direct about it.

[24:29] Moshe: It's just the way it is.

[24:31] Leah: I don't know. It has to do with the culture, the language, whatever.

[24:34] Moshe: I had a person that I work with once. He married a woman from South Korea, and he taught English in Korea, as some people do in their youth. And he said that it was such an interesting culture based on their lack of withholding information. And one time, a friend of his that they were hanging out with who was a little bit on the larger side, they decided to go clothes shopping on one of the avenues in Seoul, and they went into a store, and the woman in the store looked at the larger girl and said, sorry, there's nothing here for you. And there was no offense. It was just like, oh, I'm sorry. Well, I'll try another store.

[25:20] Leah: Yeah, here too. Remember that woman who was just asking where the fat people clothes are eggs? And people in North America were like, oh, you can't say that. And she's like, why? I'm a fat person. Where are the fat people clothes?

[25:31] Moshe: Exactly. We were discussing that. I think it was on one of the alia forums that we are part of, and someone said, where are all the fat people? Closer. Like, you shouldn't talk like that. You're self deprecating. Why is it not? You shouldn't be so down on yourself. She goes, I'm not down. I'm fat. Where are the fat people clothes?

[25:50] Leah: Yeah, I was a fat people. And honestly, it's time to take it back.

[25:53] Moshe: Like, you know, if you are, you are, and there's nothing wrong with whether you're. You're big, tall, fat, thin, short, small. It doesn't matter. It's who you are, and you have to own it. Like, I have very big shoulders. So it's very hard for me to find men's clothing, and I end up subsequently having to wear these clothes that are way too big for me because for whatever reason, israeli men are built, don't seem to have very big shoulders.

[26:21] Leah: They're built very slight. I was actually going to say, whether your mom, like me, like a woman who's doing heavy emotional labor, that's too much for you or neurodivergent like you or Abram or someone else, the cure, really, for doing too much emotional labor to the point that it's overwhelming, is you have to.

[26:39] Moshe: You have to talk it through.

[26:40] Leah: Talk it through and have boundaries. Those are things that you're no longer willing to do.

[26:45] Moshe: Those are things that a lot of people, neurotypical and neurodivergent, struggle with. When you are talking about the thing that I mentioned earlier about not being so good at detecting deception, because a combination, and I'll go into it really quickly, but a combination, the lack of deception detection, a lack of ability to read social cues, or at least a deficit, and finding it hard to detect emotion, you kind of have to take people at their word. And when someone says to you something, the logical part of your brain who's struggling to detect inflection or emotion or deception will go, well, that person said that. So why would they say that if it's not what they meant to and it results, unfortunately, of a lot of people who are neurodivergent and other people as well, ending up in positions where they're being deceived, where they're being taken advantage of. I struggled in a big way with being around people who took advantage of me because I was unable to set boundaries and I was constantly being gaslit. And I was told that this is just how I was supposed to take. I was supposed to just take it.

[28:00] Leah: The boundary thing is hard in both.

[28:01] Moshe: Directions, because you don't want to upset people. You don't want to hurt people's feelings.

[28:06] Leah: So I have issues with setting boundaries not because I don't know what's being done to me and not because I don't know how I feel, but because I feel bad setting the boundaries. I feel bad saying no to people who I care about.

[28:17] Moshe: Saying no is hard.

[28:18] Leah: I feel bad not being able to literally be two places at once. We discussed that today. Exactly two places at once.

[28:23] Moshe: Because you want to be there for everyone. You want to do everything because that's.

[28:25] Leah: The pressure and expectation that life has put on me. And our kids don't really do much to dispel that myth. If you know our children, they legitimately will wait for me for everything. And that's another thing that we've been trying to work on.

[28:39] Moshe: Self sufficiently, an independence, but at the same time, you want the children to feel secure.

[28:43] Leah: But that's a boundary. That's a boundary that's been hard for us to set. It has to be a boundary on your end. Setting up boundaries has been difficult, not because you're actually quite a strong person. When you know what you're supposed to do, you stick to it, right? But it's because you didn't know about the boundaries. You didn't know that people were even taking advantage of you, or that you should put up boundaries or that you could. So we literally, you and I, had to sit down and come up with, like, a list of default boundaries for you, right? Because you didn't have any. So it went something like, okay, so what do I do if a friend asks me for money? And I said, you don't give it. And you said, never. And I said, well, did they ever give you money? Do you have that kind of relationship? Are you that close? Do you know them? For ten plus years? Have you exchanged money back and forth? You said, no. I said, so never. You never give them money. So what do I do? If someone asks me for money? You ask me. And that was a boundary we had to put in place, for example.

[29:37] Moshe: And it's not just because Leah and I are a couple and we have to be a combined unit, and because both of us work and both of us earn money, and both of us pool our resources to the betterment of our household, but because a lot of the time, and this is big for me and for all autistics, a lot of the time, I don't know. And I identify that I don't always know because I'm not able to see things from the amount of sides that Leah can and that other neurotypical people can.

[30:08] Leah: But, I mean, everything you said gave me a bigger stake in it, for sure, that we pool our resources, that we both work. But if you had come to me just as a friend and said, how do I know if I'm supposed to give someone money? I would have given you the same answer.

[30:20] Moshe: Exactly.

[30:20] Leah: Don't.

[30:21] Moshe: Don't.

[30:22] Leah: A person or a friend who comes to you and asks for money when you don't have that level of closeness is not your friend. And that was a boundary we had to work on.

[30:31] Moshe: There has to be a lot like before. And you asked, giving someone money.

[30:35] Leah: When we were in Montreal, I remember we were staying with my friend and said, well, how come you lent them money? I said, because we've had a 20 year friendship. She's paid for things, I've paid for things. We paid each other back things. We've lent each other money before we have that relationship. And I knew it was coming back, and it did.

[30:51] Moshe: It did. And that is the progression. You don't go from zero to, can I borrow like 1000 shekels or $1,000?

[31:00] Leah: Right?

[31:01] Moshe: Can you pay my rent for me or something?

[31:03] Leah: And that's what brought that up, because we did have a friend who thought that it was appropriate to ask him him that. And of course they ask him because they know that I'm going to say no.

[31:10] Moshe: Right.

[31:11] Leah: So that's why we had to work on those boundaries. And, I mean, think about other boundaries. Do people make you uncomfortable when they text you? Are people asking you for things? They're talking to you about things you're uncomfortable with? Block them. That was the thing that you struggled with, too. Block them, don't talk to them.

[31:26] Moshe: People pleasing is a very unfortunate consequence of being neurodivergent as well. I've read and talked to a lot of people who are neurodivergent, and they end up settling into a people pleasing thing, because emotions are often hard to detect. But when someone likes you and someone was happy, happiness is very easy, a lot of the time to detect, because it can be very overt. And a lot of the time when you are keeping the peace and you're avoiding conflict, you're in a way, controlling your environment. And if you have control over your environment, then it makes you feel less anxious, which can often lead to abuse in relationships. Check out our episode on abuse and relationships.

[32:17] Leah: But then it comes down to neither one of us is better than the other. Because I would struggle with blocking someone, for example, because I feel emotionally bad, because I feel sort of emotionally blackmailed and manipulated. So neither of us is any better than the other in terms of being able to set boundaries. It's a struggle for both of us.

[32:37] Moshe: It's definitely a struggle. And speaking of struggling to set boundaries, it's very important for us to once again remind all of you that we really appreciate all the support that you've given us, all the downloads, all the listens, all the comments and likes, and everything that you've done to help support the podcast. So we are asking you once again, to continue to support us by subscribing, by checking us out on Apple Podcasts on Spotify on podcast addict on listen note on Amazon on all the ways that you can check out the podcast, including our website, which is now, you know, one autistic dot podbean.com where you might be listening to this as well. At the top of the homepage, you will see a few things. You'll see the be a paid member which will take us take you to our patreon where you can join for a variety of benefits that come from that which would really help us. But what would also help us a great deal is by sharing this podcast with your friends and your family and by checking us out every week. If you haven't listened to all of our episodes, go right back to the very beginning. There's not that many now, you know, one moshe and one Leia is what we, I think at one point we called our first episode, it might have been renamed a hundred times when I got bored and decided to change the title. But go right back to the very beginning. Listen to the story of how we met. Listen to the the episode that we did with the amazing Adam and Becca from study show a few weeks ago. Listen to the incredibly scientific episode on the genetics of autism that we did. Listen to last week's episode where the kids were talking about their new friends. Check us out on Facebook. Subscribe to our Facebook channel, check us out on TikTok, go to our Instagram, and once again, tell all of your friends. Because the only way that we're going to continue doing this is if people continue to show interest. And we're doing a really good job of researching these topics and coming to you every Sunday or thereabouts with some really interesting new ideas. So keep supporting us, and thank you so much for all the support you've already shown us. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[34:53] Leah: Along those lines, you're also not going to find a couple of people who are more honest about our situation, I think.

[34:59] Moshe: Right.

[35:00] Leah: All right, so let's go to the next topic. This is a mouthful. This was actually a study, I think, that I found on hermeneutic labor.

[35:09] Moshe: Hermeneutic.

[35:10] Leah: Hermeneutic.

[35:10] Moshe: Look it up.

[35:11] Leah: Look it up. Yeah. So what it is, essentially, is the interpretation of language. So, for example, I am a single woman on Tinder, let's pretend.

[35:21] Moshe: Since when were you going to tell me that?

[35:23] Leah: I was never going to tell you. And you are a single man who has texted me on Tinder and you say, hey, you seem nice. Want to go out for a coffee? I then have to read into what you're saying and think about your intentions, because life for women is dangerous, especially when you're a man loving woman, because you have to be really careful about, you know, especially the men that you meet. So I have to read your intention. I don't only have to read your text, but I have to think, what's, what is he thinking? Does he have pure intentions? Does he really want to go for coffee? Is he going to ask me to pay? Is he going to murder me in the, you know, the alleyway? I don't know. So that is essentially what you're talking about, right, when you're speaking of this kind of labor. So it comes with three main headings or topics. Interpreting feelings of others through language. Not necessarily just written language, but language in general. So again, do you mean what you say? Do you say. We mean determining when and whether to bring up difficult conversations. Now, that's a thing that I definitely struggle with. So, still with you, but it was a lot worse earlier on. And also interpreting your own feelings about the situation. Okay, well, this guy's paying me attention, but do I even like him? Do I even want to go for coffee with him?

[36:41] Moshe: Right.

[36:42] Leah: Again. Often performed by women who are forced to interpret men who lack emotional vocabulary. That has to do more with the north american, you know, big boys don't cry thing.

[36:53] Moshe: It's a toxic, toxic way of raising.

[36:55] Leah: Boys are raised with children. It doesn't necessarily apply that much to neurodivergence, which is, again, why I keep saying that I bond really closely with neurodivergence, because I don't have to do maybe all that labor, but I want to come back to, again, this podcast is about us. So the thing that I struggle with so much with you is determining when to and whether at all to bring up difficult conversations.

[37:19] Moshe: Right.

[37:20] Leah: So when you're in a head space to hear it, when I'm in a headspace to deal with your reaction, which is often overt and over the top, when I, you know, when I'm going to have the time to explain things to you in very plain language over and over again until you understand it, when you're feeling okay to deal with that, because often difficult conversations for us are not a marathon. So what are your thoughts on that?

[37:44] Moshe: Because we lack a lot of us, again, when autistic, but a lot of us do lack the ability to read social cues or read emotions or understand meaning. So it's kind of like going through your entire life without a sense of touch, or at least the ability to sense temperature and hoping that the things that you touch are not going to be excessively cold or hot. It's like going through life wearing, like, a plastic shield around you that blocks off everything emotional. Because when you hear someone talk to you, you don't necessarily know what they mean by that, unless it's overt. And in turn, you end up mimicking or mirroring the kind of reactions that you want to have because you're looking to receive it. Which is why I employ a lot of overt expressions of joy and happiness. Because it's kind of like going fishing for emotions, where you're sort of throwing out a line and going, hi. And sort of what you get back can either be reciprocal, hi. Which means, oh, okay, there's a lot of joy there, or, hey, which could be, uh oh, what happened now? But that's the only way that you can know what's going on. So the invitation for a reciprocal reaction, to be technical, is kind of like the canary in the coal mine. When it comes to understanding social cues, Abram tends to go right for physical stuff. He likes to say, I love you and hug, which is his hi, because based on the reaction he gets, he knows where he stands with other people.

[39:38] Leah: What Moshe is referring to is whenever I walk into a room, or one of the kids walks into a room, he'll do a very overt, big smile. Big hi. To sort of take our temperature to see what kind of a mood that we're in.

[39:51] Moshe: Yes. And it can get annoying.

[39:53] Leah: I don't get annoyed by it, but.

[39:55] Moshe: It can, because if you're not understanding the nuance of it. And again, autistics using nuance, who thought it, then it can become very. For example, if a neurotypical would constantly give overt reactions to someone, it could come across as creepy, but also needy, disingenuous. Disingenuous and needy. Kind of like the often, you know, maligned, you'd be a lot prettier if you smiled once in a while type of thing. But that's as much for the man's insecurities as it is for the woman's or what have you.

[40:39] Leah: I mean, but the reality of the situation is it's the opposite. Now, you've trained me opposite. I sort of do the, let's put quotes, right. The creepy thing where I. I'm very overt with the way I'm feeling and do sort of a fake, you know, exaggerated happiness. Because you need that to be able to read. Yes, you've trained me because I do it to everyone. But I do it to you.

[41:04] Moshe: Yeah. Subtlety is lacking, a lot of them, and it can get exhausting. So sometimes there does have to be some training involved. And, you know, we could write a book called training your autistic. That would come across the wrong way to a lot of people, and we probably get censored. But the reality of the situation is, speaking as one, autistic training is important in any kind of social interaction. And sometimes it happens completely unconsciously. I had a manager at work who I trained quite well. We became very close because I worked with her for a long time, and she sort of saw me through a lot of ups and downs, and she would preface every single interaction that we have with. Can I talk to you for a moment? I'm not mad at you.

[41:55] Leah: Yeah.

[41:55] Moshe: Or would you mind coming to my desk? You're not in trouble.

[41:59] Leah: Yep, I know.

[42:00] Moshe: And that is how it went. And you could look at it from that angle and say, why should you always have to reassure him, like did, if he is in trouble, he needs to know, or he should figure it out on his own. But when you care about someone who is neurodivergent, it's just kind of part your framework.

[42:21] Leah: The answer I can give you is just because you have to. There's no good reason I do the same thing. Honey, I got to talk to you about something. It's not about you. It's not about us. You didn't do anything.

[42:32] Moshe: Right?

[42:32] Leah: Because the reality is, if I do it the other way, where you have to figure it out. It takes me so long to calm you down from a perceived problem that's coming that I could have just talked to you about the thing in two minutes, and then it'll take an hour to calm you down. I know nothing's wrong. All right, stop now. Okay. It was just about. I don't know. Are we going to Strulmor? Like, it was literally nothing, Moshe. So instead of that, just a little bit of preamble, whether it seems like too much accommodation for people or nothing, literally saved us both time and emotional labor in the long run. So the answer is just cause. Just cause that's what he needs. So it's what I do.

[43:13] Moshe: And you kind of have to do it in different ways for different people because prepping me is different than prepping Avram. And sometimes he needs certain things that I don't need, and I need certain things he doesn't need. And it becomes very complicated because of how you have to present yourself to other people that from the surface or from the outside at least, can come across looking really strange and also very disingenuous.

[43:45] Leah: But again, I don't care. They're not the ones who have to live with you guys, literally, to use one of your favorite, you know, one of your favorite things. So I come back to you with asking when, if ever, and how, if any way is the best way to bring up difficult topics to someone like you.

[44:04] Moshe: It involves cutting through a lot of hurdle. Pardon me. And what it comes down to is essentially a dance.

[44:18] Leah: Yeah, it's a marathon. As I said earlier, if I'm not emotionally up to it, I just want to talk to you about tough stuff.

[44:24] Moshe: It's a dance, and it has to end up going through a series of steps. For example, I need to talk about something that you did. I'm not mad. I just need to talk to you. There's something that happened that you did that I would like to discuss with you. You're not in trouble. I'm not mad at you. You're not in trouble. If you'd like me to hold you or hug you or hold your hand while we're talking. It's just something that you did that irked me a little bit. But I need you to know that I love you, but it's really bothering me, and I need to talk to you about it. And once you finish all these steps, then you can sort of go, okay, so that thing that you did really upset me.

[45:07] Leah: Right. And then the meltdown will happen anyway.

[45:09] Moshe: Sometimes.

[45:10] Leah: That's what I'm saying. It's a marathon.

[45:11] Moshe: Sometimes. Sometimes not. It depends on how prepped everything is.

[45:15] Leah: It also depends on how bad the thing is. I noticed that if we both can share responsibility, it's less bad. But if it's, like, totally a you thing, then forget it.

[45:24] Moshe: There's less of those now, though, because I've learned that the subtle intricacies of being in a relationship with you.

[45:35] Leah: And.

[45:35] Moshe: I mean, and that, I think, is worth mentioning because we do a podcast about neurodivergent relationships and mixed neuro capacities and all that stuff. But we're not doing it because we've sort of reached the end and now we're sort of passing on our wisdom to others.

[45:53] Leah: Absolutely.

[45:53] Moshe: It's a work in progress.

[45:55] Leah: And we also keep saying that I'm not a peach either. I'm tough to live. I was a lot to learn, and I still have to be managed sometimes.

[46:05] Moshe: I mean, nobody's perfect, especially not me.

[46:09] Leah: So the next part is all you, actually, yeah. It's the emotional labor of neurodivergence, having to live in a neurotypical world. And I did put some headings here. I put, you know, small talk, masking, etcetera. Tell me about that.

[46:25] Moshe: Okay. So we'll try to get through this as quickly as we can. So the first point was, sometimes he can't ask. So you just have to tell him. And we're gonna get into one of those aspects in more detail in a later episode. And that is setting expectations for appropriate response. But, for example, it may seem to take some of the, I don't know, romance. Romance or genuineness out of it. If you were to come to me and tell me, I'm feeling very sad today. I need you to hug me in the past, it may end up looking like, you should know. And again, the you should know thing is another aspect of communication that we're going to discuss at some point in the future.

[47:15] Leah: That is something I really had to calculate how much I wanted to be with you versus. That is something that I had to let go. The whole romantic thing where your man just looks at you and knows something's wrong and sweeps you up in his arms. And don't get me wrong, he'll do that sometimes. Like, one out of ten, right? But the other nine times, I have to be like, honey, can't you see that I'm really upset right now? Like, hold me. And he's like, oh, whoops.

[47:40] Moshe: Right. And that is something that I've also had to deal with. Because when you're the kind of person who goes, well, you should know that I'm feeling upset, and you should know what you should do. From my perspective, it looks like, I am so stupid. Why can't I see this? What's wrong with me? Self deprecating. So it's a problem. And what we really needed to sort of come down to is, do I want this thing from him? If so, it doesn't matter how I get it, as long as I get it. Because when I'm informed about what I'm, you know, supposed to do, it doesn't make the reaction less genuine. It doesn't make it fake or engineered or you're just doing it because I asked you to. It is simply a matter of me not being aware of something. And once I am made aware of it, me reacting with all of the emotion and concern that I would normally.

[48:41] Leah: And that was the thing that I, one, had to let go of, and two, had to understand. Because the reality is, if you don't feel a way you're not going to do it, no matter who asks you to do it or whatever. So your love, caring, hugs, concern questions are just as genuine and pertinent, even if I ask for them.

[49:00] Moshe: Right. And for my part, I'm also trying to understand certain things that you do so that I can identify and go, okay, you seem really out of it today. Is there something wrong, or you seem a little bit short today. Is there something the matter?

[49:18] Leah: Oh, like, for a few days, I was very sick this past week with some sort of stomach thing.

[49:21] Moshe: You were.

[49:22] Leah: And it was actually bad enough that you did come to me because you. It was going on long enough that you actually perceived it, and you said, did I do so, are you upset? And I was like, no, I just. I have no energy to be, like, happy, happy. And you were fine with that. You understood it.

[49:39] Moshe: Your reaction seemed very muted. Muted. And it struck me that there was something different, so overt, in fact, that even I noticed it.

[49:49] Leah: True, though, I wasn't going to go there, but true.

[49:52] Moshe: Yes. So small talk. So I think that small talk is so common and so complicated and so complex and so in depth that it is almost worthy of its own episode by itself.

[50:08] Leah: Oh, wow.

[50:08] Moshe: If you listened, and I definitely encourage you to listen to our discussion with Adam and Becca, the thing you instantly from studies show, and if you go to their account on TikTok and Instagram and you follow their life, one of the things that Becca and Adam talk about a lot that I instantly felt a connection with is my. I can't even say distaste, because it goes well beyond distaste, my absolute abhorrence.

[50:38] Leah: You can't tolerate it for small talk. You cannot tolerate it.

[50:42] Moshe: Small talk is my achilles heel, and it always has been. And a lot of people who don't understand the way it affects me don't get why it affects me that much. And it was almost a joke. And ironically enough, I always worked, at least for a few years, and by few, I mean, like, 20 plus years in customer service in a call center. And it seems to be part of the person's culture to give pleasantries.

[51:12] Leah: Hey, how are you today?

[51:14] Moshe: Hey, how's it going?

[51:15] Leah: And that bugs you so much. It's like they smacked you in the face.

[51:18] Moshe: How's it going? And ironically enough, my favorite kind of small talk is the empty small talk, because what I will encounter, and that, to me, is the only compromise I can make. If you want to, if you insist on asking how I'm doing or how's it going, or what's up? Or how you doing today? Then at least give me the pleasure of instantly changing the subject. But if you want an answer, my answer is going to be either humorous or abrupt. And I'm trying and, you know, God help me, I'm working on it because it is a big deal, especially to people in the southern United States. I know we have a number of listeners from Florida and Texas and Georgia and Tennessee and South Carolina and Alabama. And we're so grateful for all of you southern Americans. You're wonderful, wonderful people. Our friends Adam and Becca are from Georgia. It's a great state. But how y'all doing today? Or how you doing today?

[52:26] Leah: The thing is, when people are from the south, they mean it.

[52:29] Moshe: Yes.

[52:30] Leah: That's what's tough. Because when you're from the north, northeast, like we are, right talking New York, Montreal, those areas, right people, they don't mean it. It's empty when they say it and you know it is. It even bugs me. So I'll give them the whole, I'm doing great today. How are you? I'll throw it back at them like we're playing ball, you know, but people in the south genuinely mean it. If you tell them you're not doing so well today, they will ask you why. You know, they'll be like, I'm going to pray for you at my prayer circle. They will, you know, they will care, right? And I don't know that that's the thing we're used to.

[53:08] Moshe: And that pause that, that will set the mood for the call. Hey, how's it going today?

[53:14] Leah: Gray.

[53:18] Moshe: And like sometimes I'll wait. Are you going to continue? No. Oh, I have to answer. Okay, I'm doing good. How can I help you? Or I'm fine. What's up? Or what I use, what I did for a while is I would, I would come up with the. I would. I looked up again. You want to talk about autistic things? I went to a thesaurus and I looked up, I looked up synonyms for the word good or fine, and I would just throw them in. How are you doing today? Copacetic. How you doing today? I'm peachy. Peachy was one that I use all the time because it throws people off. It sets the tone. Oh, peachy. You're doing peachy. Yeah, I'm doing peachy. Sometimes I'll go all the way back and go, I'm doing fine and dandy.

[54:16] Leah: Fantastic.

[54:18] Moshe: George Carlin once did a routine about the term fine and dandy and he said, I'm often fine. And a couple of times in the sixties I was dandy, but I was never fine and dandy at the same time. You should not say it. No, it went something like that. So I would just, it throws them off because they're expecting a fine. Hopefully they're expecting a fine if they're expecting more. My favorite is, how is your day going? And I will always answer, well, I'm working, so I guess it's good.

[54:56] Leah: Complain.

[54:58] Moshe: And sometimes if I'm feeling in a particularly gruff mood, I'll go, I don't know, we'll see how this call goes, huh? So I've been commented on. People have said, you know, moshe, you really need to just learn to accept it. They ask how you're doing, you say you're fine, you ask how they're doing, they say they're fine. And then you move on with your life. You don't have to make it a whole thing. So small talk is difficult. And the reason for that is because I'm a very direct person and I really just want to know what's up. And I don't like pleasantries. We have a supervisor at work who will preface every single conversation with, hi, Moshe, how are you? And I never get a chance to answer. I'll just be like, I'm anyway. And that is just fine. Some might even say peachy. So disingenuity, disingenuity is a difficult, I said it, right, disingenuity. It's a difficult thing for me because again, the concept of being dishonest is a bit of a foreign one to me.

[56:09] Leah: I mean, there is a difference between being dishonest, that's, you know, specific misleading of someone, versus being disingenuous, which is just kind of like I'm presenting myself that I care, but I don't. I'm presenting something, but it's not quite there. Disingenuous could not necessarily be full on lying.

[56:28] Moshe: It is, but it's also not. Not lying.

[56:31] Leah: Because somewhat disingenuous daily at work, I just told everybody at the beginning, I don't care. I pretend like I care. I say the things that make people think I care, but I don't.

[56:41] Moshe: People expect you to act a certain way. And some of the criticism that I've gotten on calls are, you don't sound that interested. Because I'm nothing. You don't come across as very friendly. Because I'm not feeling friendly. Person's an idiot. Why would I be friendly to an idiot? Well, you have to, because that's kind of your job, right?

[57:01] Leah: Kind of.

[57:02] Moshe: So. And unfortunately, a lot of autistic people struggle with people always misinterpreting how they look, which is where we get into the next point that was made, which is you have to mask. You have to, because the natural state for many autistics is just a flat, monotone look. And if you sit there with, we'll call it due to the sensors, RBF, then people will go, what's the matter? You'll be like, what do you mean? What's the matter? You look miserable or you look angry or you look upset. I'm like, I'm fine. Then why aren't you smiling? Why are you looking like that? I don't know. I'm sorry. Is my face doing a thing? Hold on, let me put it on. Has. Is this better? Is this smile? Am I. Is this what you're looking for?

[57:49] Leah: That's specifically confusing about you, though, is that you do have the face thing, where your face will drop and you forget to do things with your face. And the eyes especially, you've got the sort of dead eye thing sometimes, but your voice is never flat, so you actually always have intonation in your voice. So it's actually quite confusing.

[58:10] Moshe: The intonation.

[58:11] Leah: Know, you.

[58:11] Moshe: The intonation is something that I also have to practice because I've been told that my voice often sounds flat. People used to joke that I have a voice for radio because it's very, you know, if you ever listen to the. Those, those public access radios, Walter Cronkite, you know, it's like, coming up now, we have a four hour flute solo from the musicians from the andes. Stay tuned.

[58:40] Leah: The kids these days would call it ASMR.

[58:42] Moshe: Yes, because no intonation, no cadence, no tone, no expression. They tell you in call centers that if you want to come across the way, you're supposed to smile when you're on the phone. And I said, why would I smile when I'm on the phone? They can't see me. I don't need to smile. And they go, well, it makes your voice. So I'm like, hmm, okay, is this better? Do I sound upbeat and happy?

[59:06] Leah: You actually do.

[59:07] Moshe: Exactly.

[59:08] Leah: People are actually attuned, or neurotypicals, anyway, are attuned to that sound. The way the air comes out of your mouth when you're smiling versus when you're not actually does make a difference to the way that they'll perceive the sound of your voice.

[59:21] Moshe: And the biggest, and possibly the saddest irony of that is that the thing that we struggle with the most we expect exaggerated from other people. I'm going to talk to you in a flat, monotone voice, and I want you to pretend like you're reading a script. And the script says, act ecstatic.

[59:41] Leah: Yep.

[59:42] Moshe: So I go, hi, how's it going? And then you go, I'm doing great.

[59:46] Leah: How are you?

[59:48] Moshe: And it becomes really interesting conversations because you have one person that is just way too happy and one person that sounds like Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.

[59:56] Leah: But if I dare say, I think that might be why you fell in love with me as children, because I was always over the top. I was always happy and bouncing and singing and sharing things and so excited. And I was just always smiling and sort of yelling things. So that's probably why you liked me so much.

[01:00:12] Moshe: I did really well in drama because I never needed to be told to be over the top with my emotions, because that, to me, is like a natural state. And I loved you because no matter how I felt, you were always so happy to talk to me about mundane things and everything always excited you. You were going to teach me a new song you learned at camp, or you were going to show me a new thing that you just got, or you were going to tell me about something that you did. Or we would sing songs that we heard on tv shows or sing along to my mother's radio or talk about some silly little thing that you just found so, so exciting. And I couldn't help but be happy. You took me into a state of mood that was not, you know, that was not common to me, not natural to you. It was not natural for me. It was not common. It was not something that I expressed on a regular basis. And you showed me what happiness looked like, and you introduced me to emotions that I had a lot of difficulty with. So in closing, if you choose to be with an autistic, does this mean overwhelming emotional labor for the rest of your life? Let's talk about that.

[01:01:30] Leah: Okay. So I have closing thoughts on this that are maybe not going to make me very popular. And again, if you don't like it, message me. We'll talk about it.

[01:01:41] Moshe: Contact us@nowyourknowianautistic.com.

[01:01:43] Leah: Dot the way I feel about this. Does choosing to be with an autistic mean that you're going to have overwhelming emotional labor for the rest of your life? Absolutely, yes. However, it also means that that autistic is taking on overwhelming emotional labor for the rest of their life. It's an equal opportunity. You better love each other very much. Because I have no idea why you would choose to be in this kind of relationship otherwise.

[01:02:09] Moshe: Feeling overwhelming emotional labor of love?

[01:02:13] Leah: Yes, absolutely. Overwhelming emotional labor of love. I love that.

[01:02:18] Moshe: Yes, it's a great way to describe it. So, in closing, what are your thoughts? Well, I'll give you my thoughts then. So I think that when you are autistic or neurodivergent in some capacity, you end up having to take on the life that you want to live. And unfortunately, very few of us, maybe not that few, decide that they want to have a relationship and they want to have a family, and they want to have a situation where they are going to be put daily in a position that makes them very, very uncomfortable.

[01:03:05] Leah: You mean the back of a volkswagen?

[01:03:07] Moshe: Yes. If you can write in to where that quotas from, you will make Valea very happy. So the fact is, when I was very young, I decided that I wanted to one day get married and have children. And my current state of mind did not allow that to be a reality for me. But I pursued it anyway because I never allowed my disability to prevent me from being the person that I wanted to be, which was a father and husband and a provider. So for some people like me, it is absolutely a labor of love. And for other people, it's unfortunately not. And I say unfortunately not, because if that doesn't make you happy, that's fine. But being in a position where you're constantly having to challenge your very nature a lot of the time is exhausting. But at least you're going to be tired and happy.

[01:04:09] Leah: But we're big proponents of if that's not what you want and it's not what you want to do. And if you're happy living alone and just, you know, being wrapped up in your interests, that is something that you should do, because a family is not something to be taken lightly.

[01:04:25] Moshe: Being autistic means having to make tough choices. And sometimes you don't want to make tough choices. And the choices that I make are not for everyone, which is why I'm one autistic.

[01:04:36] Leah: That has to be okay.

[01:04:37] Moshe: It absolutely is. And I think that that is really what we'll leave everyone with, is that emotional labor is not easy. But having a relationship the way that we have and trying to create a life the way that we are is worth it because it's what we want. But if it's not something that you want, if you are listening to all of us and go, oh, my gosh, that sounds like so much work, then okay, you don't have to put in the effort if you don't want to be yourself, but your happiness has to involve the emotional labor that you're willing to take on, and that's really the end of it.

[01:05:23] Leah: See you next week.

[01:05:24] Moshe: See you next week. Well, that's our show for today. Now, you know, one autistic just a little bit better. So something you may not know about some autistics is that we often struggle with ending social interactions. So leah.

[01:05:42] Leah: All right, Moshe. I'll take care of it. Thank you for listening to. Now you know, one autistic. See you next week.