Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
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Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe and I'm autistic.
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Leah: I'm Leah and I'm boring.
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Moshe: Welcome to now you know one autistic.
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Leah: A podcast about neurodiversity in
couples, marriage meltdowns, and making it all
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work.
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Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast
reflect the experience of one couple and one
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autistic.
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Leah: Nothing that you hear in this podcast
should be taken as a medical opinion.
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And unless otherwise stated, no one is an
accredited specialist in any of the many
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fields that comprise the autism spectrum.
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Moshe: But as someone who is on the autism
spectrum, I feel that my experiences will be
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very valuable to many of you.
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Whether you're on the spectrum, a support
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person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.
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Leah: If you think that you or someone you
care about may be autistic, consult your
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family doctor.
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Moshe: Hi, Leah.
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Leah: Hi, Moses.
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Moshe: How are you today?
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Leah: I'm okay.
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How are you?
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Moshe: I'm well, thanks.
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So what are we talking about today?
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Leah: I thought that we could talk about the
function of physical touch during
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communication.
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Moshe: Physical touch, it's part of our series
on communication, and it's actually an episode
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that I was kind of excited about because
physical touch, it has kind of an interesting
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connotation when it comes to neurodivergence
and autistics.
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We hear a lot about the stereotypical behavior
of neurodivergence, and one of the things that
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people talk a lot about when it comes to
hallmarks of neurodivergency is an aversion a
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lot of the time, not all the time, because,
again, one autistic aversion to physical
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touch, they don't like to be touched.
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They don't like to have their hands held.
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They don't like to be touched too tightly.
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Leah: You know what I've noticed often,
though, when a neurodivergent says they don't
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want to be touched, what they're actually
trying to say is, I wasn't prepared to be
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touched.
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You can't really surprise attack a
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neurodivergent, even you, who loves physical
touch.
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If I come up behind you and sort of touch you,
you'll sort of jump.
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Moshe: Because it all kind of comes to the
concept of an oversensitivity to stimulation.
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And touch is a stimulant of sorts.
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And if you are neurodivergent and you happen
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to have an oversensitivity to various stimuli,
then touching someone is introducing, a lot of
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the time, sudden stimulation, or even if it's
not sudden, it's a different stimulation that
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their body has to process.
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And if you're already over processing certain
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stimuli, then what you're getting is something
that would be, I guess, to some people, kind
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of painful, really.
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Leah: I can understand it because I've been so
busy and overwrought and so overstimulated
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that if somebody stops me in the middle of
what I'm doing to try to touch me or hug me,
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I've been like, ah, get off me.
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Moshe: One of the things that people often do
in an effort to scare people was they'll go up
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to them and they'll go, ah.
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And they'll touch them, and then the person
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will jump.
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For an autistic, for a lot of autistic, it's
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like that every time, even if they expect it,
that touch is like a, you know, like a
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stimulation.
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And it's very difficult to process things that
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we're not prepared for, but also that we are
prepared for, but we are not necessarily
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comfortable with.
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And I feel it almost kind of almost goes hand
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in hand with the eye contact.
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And the proximity issue is having the personal
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space, the connection that comes from being
close to someone, looking at someone, hearing
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someone, touching someone, the whole social
aspect of neurodivergency is challenged a lot
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of the time by physical touch.
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Leah: Yes. Also somebody that you don't know
well or somebody that you're not used to see,
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that's where I'm different.
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I mentioned that I can understand being
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overstimulated by touch, but for me, it's all
about the person, right?
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Essentially, anybody can touch me.
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Well, not really anymore.
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Like, I don't touch men that are not related
to me, but anybody can touch me.
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And it's the same level of either surprise or
I don't want that right now, or that's fine.
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Whereas I noticed for neurodivergence, it also
goes by person.
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Some people are allowed to touch you all the
time.
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Some people, sometimes some people with
permission.
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And some people it's like a no.
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Moshe: And of course there's going to be
different levels of comfort, different levels
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of sensitivity.
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I'm one autistic.
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So for me, physical touch is actually
something that I haven't struggled with a lot.
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I have, I guess, more of an aversion to it
than maybe a neurotypical might.
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But I have always been very huggy person.
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The problem actually has been the opposite,
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where I'm not as familiar with levels of
touch.
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So I have been accused of being very rough.
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I used to go up to my friends and just like,
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grab them and, like, squeeze them, and they
used to say, oh, he's too rough, because I
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didn't all, he doesn't know he's on strength.
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He's a big boy or whatever they used to say.
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Because for me, I actually was one of the ones
that were opposite to, I hate to use the word
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the norm, but the typical will say I was a
neurodivergent, neurotypical, whatever.
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So I would actually use touch.
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I would overuse touch.
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I would go up to just random people and just
hug them because that was how I connected with
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people.
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I like you.
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You're a good person.
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Wheeze, crunch, crack, you know, things like
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that.
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Leah: You still do that to me.
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Moshe: I still do that to you.
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And I remember, actually, not anymore, but
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when I first got to spend time with Aaron, you
had told me that you had taught him, like, do
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you want to smile?
Like a medium hug or a big hug or like
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whatever it was that you had taught him.
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Leah: I forget what I said, but it was
something like tight hug, loose hug or no hug.
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Moshe: Yeah, because you have.
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Leah: Or a high five.
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Moshe: Or high five, right.
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Because everyone has different levels of
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comfort when it comes to physical touch.
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Leah: But then, of course, he blew all my
expectations out of the water.
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And the first time he saw you, basically he
stuck his tongue in your mouth.
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So I hadn't prepared myself for that.
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Moshe: That is a different story.
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That is a combination.
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Getting a bit off topic here.
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Mirroring and expectations based on
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understanding.
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If you tell someone, give him a kiss, then
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your mind will instinctively, I mean, your
mind will at least, or the average person's
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mind will go, okay, so that is my partner.
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I'm going to kiss them like this.
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That is my friend or someone like that.
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I'm going to kiss them like that.
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That is my parent or my child.
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I'm going to kiss them like that.
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If you generalize, as a lot of neurodivergents
do, which we do have kind of black and white
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thinking in certain aspects.
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I love you, I'm going to kiss you.
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And to me, a kiss means sticking my tongue in
your mouth because that's what kiss feels like
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to me.
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But that is appropriate for certain people and
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maybe not for, you know, your parent.
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Leah: Right.
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But it was actually exclusive to you.
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Moshe: Yes. I don't know that we've ever
actually discussed why we thought that was.
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Leah: I have no idea.
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Moshe: And I was more surprised than anything.
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And it became kind of a hallmark of our
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relationship.
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We're like, can I give you a kiss goodnight?
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Blah.
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You know, and then eventually you were like,
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alvar.
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Okay, all right.
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Okay, okay, okay.
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How about, how about.
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All right, how about when we kiss?
We just do.
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We don't.
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We don't.
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That's the kiss that you.
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You say for.
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Leah: Maybe you saw me kissing you like that.
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Maybe that's why.
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Anyway.
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Moshe: But that is an example of physical
touch.
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And on the other side of that, a lot of
neurodivergence.
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Do you have a problem with the physical touch
from, like, holding hands to hugging to
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kissing to physical intimacy?
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Leah: Touch, most, like everything else we
talk about, is way more complicated than it
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seems on the surface.
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Because for this topic, we can both discuss
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why touch is important to people of all types.
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Right.
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Neurodivergent, neurotypical children, grown
ups.
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But also we can discuss, well, how important
touches in our relationship.
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Moshe: Right.
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Leah: And why it's important because as you've
already sort of teased to people, you're
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different in that way.
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Moshe: Oh, yeah.
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Leah: You actually crave physical touch more
than a lot of neurotypical people that I know.
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Moshe: For me, physical touch is very unique
because for me, it's a trust thing.
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Touch is very specific to the kind of
relationship that I would have.
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If you are an acquaintance or someone that I
don't know very well, or even a friend, I
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don't really feel comfortable touching you,
even to the point of shaking your hand.
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But if I'm someone that is quite close to you,
say you are a really close friend or a child
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or you or a parent, I guess, then physical
touch is not only desired, but necessary.
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And the absence of it is actually, like, a
deficiency that I feel very strongly.
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And it's sort of a reversal of the concept of
overstimulation.
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I feel overstimulated by the absence of
certain people's touches in the same way that
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certain neurodivergence would feel that way
about that person's touches.
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Leah: Yes, I remember something that happened,
and it was completely counterintuitive.
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And then, of course, it was a talk and we had
to work it out, but we were having a
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knockdown, drag out fight about something.
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The topic of the fight, I don't remember, but
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I was so angry, and I was standing across the
room from you, and you just sort of.
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I was screaming, and you were sort of, I don't
know, raising your voice.
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And you were like, how come you don't love me
anymore?
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And I was like, of course I love you.
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I'm just angry at you right now.
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And you were like, then how come you're not
right here?
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And you open your arms and you sort of pounded
your chest?
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You're like, I don't care.
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If you're mad at me, you need to be right here
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at all times.
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And I went, whoa.
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I'm too angry for that kind of contact right
now.
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Moshe: Right?
Because the connection that comes from
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physical touch, for me specifically, is
relative to the kind of relationship that we
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have.
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And a desire, even a temporary desire, to not
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have physical touch with someone that you
have.
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The kind of connection that I expect is akin
to a downgrade of your entire relationship.
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I love you.
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And therefore, right now, we are together.
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We are a couple.
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You are husband and wife.
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We are girlfriend and boyfriend.
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But for that period of time where I don't
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really feel like touching you, it's like we've
broken up, and I feel the love as though we
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had just broken up, even if it's temporary.
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Leah: And then when we were calm, that had to
be a discussion, because I was like, I was far
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too mad for that kind of contact.
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And you wanted full on, like, snuggles, and we
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would have still been fighting.
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But for you, that would have been fine.
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And for me, that wasn't fine.
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So we talked about that, and eventually you
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were like, okay, you know, consent, I
understand.
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No touching when you're that angry.
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But I still always remembered that because it
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was sweet and sad and a very interesting
window into who you are as a person and a
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neurodivergent person.
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Moshe: It'S interesting.
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And once you know that sort of thing, because
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everyone has a different relationship with
touch.
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My relationship with touch is actually.
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It's a much higher priority for me than some
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of my other senses.
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My hearing has always been a little bit less
236
00:13:27,006 --> 00:13:29,550
sensitive in certain ways.
237
00:13:29,622 --> 00:13:31,794
In some ways, it's more sensitive.
238
00:13:32,424 --> 00:13:34,684
My sense of smell is quite sensitive.
239
00:13:35,784 --> 00:13:38,008
Leah: Less since COVID though, unfortunately.
240
00:13:38,056 --> 00:13:39,524
Moshe: But that's a different topic.
241
00:13:39,984 --> 00:13:43,520
My vision has always been terrible, so I've
242
00:13:43,552 --> 00:13:45,272
never really relied too much on that.
243
00:13:45,368 --> 00:13:48,872
Leah: It's the most beautiful eyes I've ever
seen that don't work at all.
244
00:13:48,968 --> 00:13:58,072
Moshe: But my sense of touch is so important
for me that I would sooner be able to touch
245
00:13:58,128 --> 00:14:04,574
someone, even if I was, I mean,
hypothetically, never allowed to hear them or
246
00:14:04,614 --> 00:14:05,554
see them again.
247
00:14:06,174 --> 00:14:11,314
To feel the touch of their hand or other
248
00:14:12,014 --> 00:14:21,270
aspects of them would be more desirable for me
than to not be able to touch them, but be able
249
00:14:21,302 --> 00:14:25,058
to see them or hear them or smell them.
250
00:14:25,206 --> 00:14:31,002
Leah: I can understand that because especially
with you and the children, touch is probably
251
00:14:31,058 --> 00:14:33,930
also the most important aspect for me.
252
00:14:34,082 --> 00:14:35,694
Moshe: And it models.
253
00:14:37,034 --> 00:14:38,974
I'll just let the ambulance.
254
00:14:45,754 --> 00:14:56,324
It models every aspect of my personal life
from an early age to the present.
255
00:14:56,624 --> 00:15:05,472
Whenever I was upset by something, I would
seek out ta.
256
00:15:05,648 --> 00:15:12,724
I would hold a pillow, I would smuggle a
stuffed animal, or I would go up to a relative
257
00:15:13,144 --> 00:15:14,080
and I would hug them.
258
00:15:14,112 --> 00:15:16,344
If I really, really liked you, I would hug
259
00:15:16,384 --> 00:15:16,964
you.
260
00:15:18,604 --> 00:15:26,732
When I was blessed to have a child, the
261
00:15:26,828 --> 00:15:33,380
absence of their presence was painful to me.
262
00:15:33,452 --> 00:15:38,820
Leah: Yes. Agram now is growing up and he's, I
guess if you want to say you're more
263
00:15:38,852 --> 00:15:40,740
stereotypical neurodivergent that way.
264
00:15:40,772 --> 00:15:42,996
He's a bit like, you know, Sheldon Cooper from
265
00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:43,904
Big Bang.
266
00:15:44,254 --> 00:15:46,830
He likes touch kind of sometimes, sort of, but
267
00:15:46,862 --> 00:15:47,634
not really.
268
00:15:48,774 --> 00:15:51,566
And in terms of bonding, he's very much the
269
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:51,822
same.
270
00:15:51,878 --> 00:15:55,462
So he's out all the time and he doesn't spend
271
00:15:55,518 --> 00:15:56,966
as much time with us as he used to.
272
00:15:56,990 --> 00:15:59,142
And he definitely doesn't touch you as much as
273
00:15:59,158 --> 00:16:02,474
he used to, and you're upset about it a lot.
274
00:16:05,454 --> 00:16:10,886
Moshe: I would even put myself on record as
saying I'm disproportionately upset about it
275
00:16:11,070 --> 00:16:15,910
because, and again, it's the same story.
276
00:16:16,102 --> 00:16:20,918
I would rather feel him than see him or spend
277
00:16:20,966 --> 00:16:22,030
time with him.
278
00:16:22,222 --> 00:16:25,182
And when I'm upset at him, I don't actually
279
00:16:25,278 --> 00:16:29,718
want to touch him because for me, it's a
connection issue.
280
00:16:29,886 --> 00:16:31,454
You've disappointed me right now.
281
00:16:31,494 --> 00:16:32,550
You've upset me.
282
00:16:32,662 --> 00:16:37,994
I'm not comfortable touching you right now
because it's a downgrade in our relationship.
283
00:16:38,134 --> 00:16:38,474
It's.
284
00:16:38,514 --> 00:16:40,514
You have taken your physical presence away
285
00:16:40,554 --> 00:16:45,778
from me, so now I have to take my physical
presence away from you.
286
00:16:45,946 --> 00:16:48,474
Unfortunately, it is not reciprocal.
287
00:16:48,514 --> 00:16:49,330
He doesn't care.
288
00:16:49,442 --> 00:16:49,946
Leah: He is.
289
00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:50,650
Yes, he is.
290
00:16:50,682 --> 00:16:51,530
Not that way.
291
00:16:51,642 --> 00:16:53,226
I don't know that he doesn't care, but he's
292
00:16:53,250 --> 00:16:54,170
not that way.
293
00:16:54,322 --> 00:17:05,290
Moshe: Because for me, it was actually really
sad because the way to, I guess, punish me for
294
00:17:05,322 --> 00:17:07,474
me would be to withdraw, like, touch.
295
00:17:07,634 --> 00:17:09,786
If you don't, like, do what I say, I'm not
296
00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:15,522
going to hug you would be far more effective
than putting me in a timeout or sticking me in
297
00:17:15,538 --> 00:17:23,146
a corner, because to see someone and not be
able to touch them was harsher for me than to
298
00:17:23,170 --> 00:17:25,014
touch them but not be able to see them.
299
00:17:26,474 --> 00:17:28,094
And it is.
300
00:17:28,954 --> 00:17:31,294
It's always been like when I was a parent.
301
00:17:32,884 --> 00:17:35,224
I'm a big believer in attachment parenting.
302
00:17:36,124 --> 00:17:38,148
It's definitely a proven science.
303
00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:40,756
And a lot of people do believe very strongly
304
00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:45,652
in having a relationship with their new baby,
where the child is essentially with them at
305
00:17:45,668 --> 00:17:46,116
all times.
306
00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:49,584
Leah: But it's also very interesting because
it's honestly, usually the mom.
307
00:17:50,044 --> 00:17:51,796
Usually the mom wears the baby.
308
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:53,588
Usually the mom carries the baby around
309
00:17:53,636 --> 00:17:54,292
everywhere.
310
00:17:54,428 --> 00:17:56,260
And I guess it's a practical thing too,
311
00:17:56,292 --> 00:18:01,270
because if you're breastfeeding right there,
right there, it's definitely usually the dad.
312
00:18:01,422 --> 00:18:04,526
Moshe: Because you, you know, the mother,
depending on where you live in the world, you
313
00:18:04,550 --> 00:18:07,078
have the baby, you may or may not have time
off.
314
00:18:07,246 --> 00:18:11,194
You don't really have the ability until
they're a little bit older to put them down.
315
00:18:12,054 --> 00:18:17,398
So you kind of wrap them up in you or you
stick them in a. In a snugly or something, and
316
00:18:17,406 --> 00:18:18,794
then you go about your day.
317
00:18:19,334 --> 00:18:27,624
But for me, it was, I would see this, this
318
00:18:28,564 --> 00:18:35,556
baby, and the first thing that I would want to
do is just hold it against me, because for me,
319
00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:40,784
the ultimate sign of love is to hold someone
against me is to hug them.
320
00:18:41,084 --> 00:18:46,584
And a handshake is kind of like a mini hug.
321
00:18:47,084 --> 00:18:50,372
So these people that would, like, go over to
322
00:18:50,388 --> 00:18:51,882
you, it's nice to meet you.
323
00:18:52,028 --> 00:18:54,094
And my response would be, yes, it's really
324
00:18:54,134 --> 00:18:58,154
nice to meet you, but I don't really know you
enough to hug you right now.
325
00:18:58,454 --> 00:19:01,954
Maybe once I have a good relationship with
you, I will hug you.
326
00:19:02,374 --> 00:19:08,582
And it made it very awkward, because in
western society, a handshake is seen as a
327
00:19:08,598 --> 00:19:09,406
symbol of trust.
328
00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:10,094
Leah: That's the thing.
329
00:19:10,134 --> 00:19:11,590
Covid fixed a lot, though.
330
00:19:11,702 --> 00:19:13,142
Moshe: Yeah, the COVID was a coincidence.
331
00:19:13,198 --> 00:19:16,526
Leah: Covid reminded all of us how intimate
handshakes are.
332
00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:23,252
Moshe: Yes. And especially for me, as an
orthodox jew, the idea of shoma Nagia and I
333
00:19:23,268 --> 00:19:28,388
would often have been interviewed by women,
and they'd be fine.
334
00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:34,020
I mean, there was no, there's nothing untoward
happening, but they would be, it's really nice
335
00:19:34,052 --> 00:19:35,956
to meet you, mister, you know, Appel.
336
00:19:36,060 --> 00:19:38,292
And they would put their hand out, and I would
337
00:19:38,308 --> 00:19:42,384
say, I'm sorry, I don't shake hands.
338
00:19:42,684 --> 00:19:44,460
And before COVID that would have been like,
339
00:19:44,492 --> 00:19:46,460
ooh, I wonder what's up with him now.
340
00:19:46,492 --> 00:19:48,904
It's like, I get it, I get it, I get it.
341
00:19:49,564 --> 00:19:51,236
And it's taken a little bit better.
342
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,420
And I'm thinking to myself, I don't know that
343
00:19:53,452 --> 00:19:58,300
you do, but, you know, pleasant coincidence, I
guess.
344
00:19:58,372 --> 00:19:59,024
Leah: Yeah.
345
00:19:59,564 --> 00:20:04,036
Moshe: But Tux is definitely a very intimate
thing for me.
346
00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:08,372
And it's the end of every argument that Leah
and I have that is true.
347
00:20:08,428 --> 00:20:11,044
The argument is not over until she has hugged
me.
348
00:20:11,084 --> 00:20:12,744
That's how I know it's been resolved.
349
00:20:13,484 --> 00:20:17,790
And because that's something that she trained
350
00:20:17,822 --> 00:20:18,554
me in.
351
00:20:19,734 --> 00:20:23,914
I really tried hard to maintain physical touch
352
00:20:24,854 --> 00:20:28,822
throughout the ups and downs of our
relationship, but obviously, she's a different
353
00:20:28,878 --> 00:20:31,254
person, and she doesn't feel the same way I
do.
354
00:20:31,414 --> 00:20:34,518
So now my perspective is okay.
355
00:20:34,686 --> 00:20:38,526
So I don't fully know that things are resolved
356
00:20:38,590 --> 00:20:40,744
until she is willing to touch me.
357
00:20:40,854 --> 00:20:44,844
Leah: I've adjusted my way with that as well
because what we're actually trying to talk
358
00:20:44,884 --> 00:20:52,184
about here is the function of physical touch
during communication, including arguments.
359
00:20:52,484 --> 00:20:59,284
And I have actually moderated myself because I
used to not want to touch or v near anyone
360
00:20:59,324 --> 00:21:00,644
that I was angry at.
361
00:21:00,804 --> 00:21:03,124
And now I might not hug and kiss you.
362
00:21:03,164 --> 00:21:05,700
So absolutely, you know that that's when it's
over.
363
00:21:05,812 --> 00:21:11,594
But I will take your hand or put my hand on
you because sometimes if I don't, you're not
364
00:21:11,634 --> 00:21:12,866
listening as well.
365
00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:17,138
Moshe: And that's something else that we
should discuss, the concept of physical touch
366
00:21:17,266 --> 00:21:21,458
when it comes to neurodivergence, when it
comes to focusing.
367
00:21:21,506 --> 00:21:25,850
Leah: So I had to train myself to be rip
roaring mad at you and still be able to put my
368
00:21:25,882 --> 00:21:26,450
hand on you.
369
00:21:26,482 --> 00:21:29,394
That was, you know, I guess, sort of a change
370
00:21:29,434 --> 00:21:30,654
that I made for you.
371
00:21:31,074 --> 00:21:35,538
Moshe: And just to answer any question that
someone might have, if you see touch as so
372
00:21:35,586 --> 00:21:42,382
important to you, then how do you know that
things are still, you know, problematic?
373
00:21:42,438 --> 00:21:43,782
I guess if.
374
00:21:43,838 --> 00:21:45,998
If you are willing to touch me to a certain
375
00:21:46,046 --> 00:21:47,302
extent, the answer is.
376
00:21:47,318 --> 00:21:49,110
Leah: I know I won't be kissing you.
377
00:21:49,182 --> 00:21:51,342
Like usually the intimate stuff.
378
00:21:51,398 --> 00:21:51,662
Kiss.
379
00:21:51,718 --> 00:21:52,446
Moshe: Oh, I know.
380
00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:54,406
I can feel through your touch that there's
381
00:21:54,430 --> 00:21:55,486
still something going on.
382
00:21:55,550 --> 00:21:57,486
Yeah, like, I'm touching you, but we're still
383
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:59,874
dealing with it, which is great.
384
00:22:01,054 --> 00:22:02,622
Leah: It's better than I used to do.
385
00:22:02,718 --> 00:22:03,848
Moshe: It's a lot better.
386
00:22:03,896 --> 00:22:08,072
And it definitely, for me at least, makes our
387
00:22:08,208 --> 00:22:14,080
discussions and disagreements more palatable.
388
00:22:14,232 --> 00:22:16,964
Not palatable, just adult.
389
00:22:18,104 --> 00:22:19,472
It keeps me grounded.
390
00:22:19,528 --> 00:22:23,656
So I'm like, not collapsing in a sobbing neck.
391
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,744
I'm like, okay, she's touching me.
392
00:22:25,864 --> 00:22:27,720
So we're still going to be able to talk this
393
00:22:27,752 --> 00:22:28,324
through.
394
00:22:28,704 --> 00:22:31,144
And that helps a lot, I would hope, with
395
00:22:31,184 --> 00:22:32,712
resolving a lot of our disagreements.
396
00:22:32,768 --> 00:22:33,296
Leah: It does.
397
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,324
It helps me get through to you faster.
398
00:22:36,354 --> 00:22:40,978
Moshe: So let's move on to the next aspect of
physical touch.
399
00:22:41,146 --> 00:22:46,174
Leah: Well, the first thing I actually wanted
to talk about is an interesting concept.
400
00:22:46,754 --> 00:22:52,266
You know how when you see a movie where you
know a man really loves his dog or a movie
401
00:22:52,330 --> 00:22:55,962
where people fall in love and you get to watch
it, you describe it as touching.
402
00:22:56,098 --> 00:22:58,654
No, nobody's actually touching you.
403
00:22:59,394 --> 00:23:01,654
But why do you think that that's a thing?
404
00:23:04,104 --> 00:23:11,728
Moshe: I've always interpreted that saying to
mean that it's touching your heart.
405
00:23:11,896 --> 00:23:15,256
It makes you feel like something heat, like in
your chest.
406
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,384
You can't see what I'm touching myself, but
you're touching your heart, like your chest.
407
00:23:19,424 --> 00:23:21,904
It's like, oh, I can feel that emotion.
408
00:23:22,064 --> 00:23:25,640
It's touching that emotion, that connection
409
00:23:25,832 --> 00:23:27,004
that they have.
410
00:23:28,284 --> 00:23:32,412
It's like I can feel the connection inside
411
00:23:32,468 --> 00:23:32,852
myself.
412
00:23:32,908 --> 00:23:33,996
It's touching me.
413
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:34,340
Leah: Right.
414
00:23:34,372 --> 00:23:36,524
And that's so interesting because for me, that
415
00:23:36,564 --> 00:23:42,292
brings up the whole concept of brain body
emotional connection, because when you're
416
00:23:42,348 --> 00:23:45,344
really upset, you can actually feel physical
pain.
417
00:23:45,684 --> 00:23:49,756
But when you see something really sweet and
loving, you can actually feel physical
418
00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:50,228
pleasure.
419
00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:52,476
Like somebody that you love is touching you.
420
00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:56,294
Moshe: Yeah. The mark of a good actor.
421
00:23:56,954 --> 00:24:00,254
When you're talking about movies or tv shows
422
00:24:01,474 --> 00:24:08,082
or even taking it a step further, even going
to listening to particular songs, where you're
423
00:24:08,098 --> 00:24:13,618
listening to a song and you're like, wow, I
can feel the emotion in his words, or I can
424
00:24:13,666 --> 00:24:15,974
feel the heartbreak that she's singing about.
425
00:24:17,554 --> 00:24:19,706
And she may just be very good at emoting, but
426
00:24:19,770 --> 00:24:26,954
also it's how we make that connection when
we're watching a tv show or watching a movie
427
00:24:27,114 --> 00:24:32,698
or we're seeing a play or something and we're
just going, wow.
428
00:24:32,826 --> 00:24:36,466
You can see it in her eyes and their body
language.
429
00:24:36,650 --> 00:24:44,922
You can see how he's touching her, or you can
see how I can feel what's happening between
430
00:24:44,978 --> 00:24:45,934
them or something.
431
00:24:46,254 --> 00:24:46,654
It's.
432
00:24:46,694 --> 00:24:48,006
It becomes.
433
00:24:48,190 --> 00:24:51,558
It becomes that connection that they're
434
00:24:51,606 --> 00:24:57,622
making, that, in turn, you are receiving from
them in addition to whatever's going on in
435
00:24:57,638 --> 00:24:58,454
front of you.
436
00:24:58,614 --> 00:24:58,982
Leah: Right.
437
00:24:59,038 --> 00:25:00,862
So that's why when you watch a funny movie,
438
00:25:00,918 --> 00:25:04,114
even if the person's not there with you,
telling you a joke, you laugh.
439
00:25:04,974 --> 00:25:06,918
That's why people like romance movies.
440
00:25:06,966 --> 00:25:08,622
It makes them feel, you know, warm, like
441
00:25:08,638 --> 00:25:10,734
they're being hugged or sweet.
442
00:25:10,774 --> 00:25:12,546
That's why scary movies are scary.
443
00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:19,346
Yeah, because we have a really, really strong
mind body connection as human beings that we
444
00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:21,250
don't pay enough attention to.
445
00:25:21,402 --> 00:25:28,082
Moshe: There are certain conditions or mental
illnesses that are actually characterized by a
446
00:25:28,138 --> 00:25:31,482
disconnect between feeling someone else's
emotions.
447
00:25:31,578 --> 00:25:34,826
It's like a pathological lack of empathy.
448
00:25:34,970 --> 00:25:38,026
I see that those people are hugging, but I
449
00:25:38,050 --> 00:25:41,660
don't feel the kind of connection that they
have.
450
00:25:41,852 --> 00:25:47,196
Or I see that those people are laughing, but I
don't understand their humor.
451
00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:50,964
Leah: And more people like that exist than you
think.
452
00:25:51,124 --> 00:25:53,956
Because a lot of people are thinking, well,
yeah, of course, they're serial killers or
453
00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:54,388
murderers.
454
00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:57,620
No, they can just be regular people and they
455
00:25:57,652 --> 00:25:59,944
go through life feeling that way.
456
00:26:01,084 --> 00:26:05,550
Moshe: And a lot of people often stereotype
autistics like that.
457
00:26:05,692 --> 00:26:15,226
This deadpan lack of emotion where you'll see
this crowd of people standing around talking
458
00:26:15,330 --> 00:26:17,674
and laughing and joking and ahahaha.
459
00:26:17,714 --> 00:26:18,418
Whatever.
460
00:26:18,586 --> 00:26:22,906
And then this one neurodivergent will stand
there and go, I don't get it.
461
00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:28,138
Leah: You've very sadly been accused before by
one of my friends who didn't know you very
462
00:26:28,186 --> 00:26:32,602
well, that she actually said she wanted to see
in the trunk of your car to make sure you
463
00:26:32,618 --> 00:26:33,762
weren't going to murder me.
464
00:26:33,858 --> 00:26:34,534
Moshe: Correct.
465
00:26:35,634 --> 00:26:43,722
And that is, unfortunately, it is a burden
466
00:26:43,778 --> 00:26:46,770
that a lot of neurodivergents have.
467
00:26:46,922 --> 00:26:50,794
And that is, as I describe it, the ability to
468
00:26:50,834 --> 00:26:57,946
convert your internal emotions to your
external expressions.
469
00:26:58,050 --> 00:27:04,176
Leah: And it wasn't funny, but I couldn't
really help but laugh at her because anybody
470
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,336
who knows Moshe and I, well, even a little
bit, would know that I'm far more likely to
471
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:10,112
murder him.
472
00:27:10,248 --> 00:27:18,244
Moshe: Oh, I know you don't have a car or a
license, but man, if I. If I made you upset
473
00:27:18,984 --> 00:27:21,976
like the desert, it's not far.
474
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,296
It's a, it's not far, and it's a big place.
475
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,786
It's a great place to, you know, hide a body.
476
00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:29,250
Leah: So, for the record, I'm not murdering
Marcia.
477
00:27:29,282 --> 00:27:33,546
But it's just, if you knew our personalities
and knew us personally, even a little bit, you
478
00:27:33,570 --> 00:27:35,538
would see how ridiculous that is.
479
00:27:35,706 --> 00:27:41,298
Moshe: But for me, actually, on the topic of
that sort of thing, it was a journey.
480
00:27:41,426 --> 00:27:48,586
Because things that are often understood, not
automatic by any stretch, because if you can,
481
00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:56,484
if you can accept that something like humor is
not innate to anyone, really.
482
00:27:57,144 --> 00:28:01,008
No one comes out of the womb knowing what
makes a good joke.
483
00:28:01,096 --> 00:28:02,744
Leah: Kind of seems like you did, though.
484
00:28:02,864 --> 00:28:07,404
Moshe: Yes, I had a unique talent for humor,
but it was learned.
485
00:28:07,864 --> 00:28:14,096
But when I was very young, even up to just a
few years ago, I didn't understand what
486
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:15,324
sarcasm was.
487
00:28:16,064 --> 00:28:19,704
I didn't understand what irony was.
488
00:28:20,204 --> 00:28:27,132
I didn't understand why certain things were
funny, and I didn't understand why certain
489
00:28:27,188 --> 00:28:28,624
things were not funny.
490
00:28:29,444 --> 00:28:33,596
Auburn is sometimes accused of trying to be
491
00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:37,220
funny, but actually coming across as
insensitive or hurtful.
492
00:28:37,332 --> 00:28:38,684
But it's funny to him.
493
00:28:38,844 --> 00:28:39,316
Leah: Exactly.
494
00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:43,904
Moshe: And that's translating your humor to
that other person.
495
00:28:45,684 --> 00:29:04,304
There was a lot of, there was a lot of jokes
made of trying to teach humor or comedy to
496
00:29:05,684 --> 00:29:06,624
robots.
497
00:29:07,324 --> 00:29:11,332
People will act with understandably disastrous
498
00:29:11,388 --> 00:29:11,984
results.
499
00:29:13,604 --> 00:29:16,644
And it's about understanding what's
500
00:29:16,684 --> 00:29:22,492
appropriate and what's not appropriate and
finding the happy medium between inappropriate
501
00:29:22,668 --> 00:29:23,984
but still funny.
502
00:29:24,404 --> 00:29:30,104
Or, you know, we like ironic but still funny.
503
00:29:31,084 --> 00:29:41,504
And that is a complex understanding that is
very much related to why certain touches are
504
00:29:41,544 --> 00:29:44,568
acceptable and certain touches are not
acceptable.
505
00:29:44,696 --> 00:29:49,624
And if I love my Abba so much, then why can't
I stick my tongue in his mouth?
506
00:29:49,704 --> 00:29:50,416
Leah: Understood.
507
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,524
I get that.
508
00:29:51,984 --> 00:29:57,800
So just to sort of close the circle on the why
things are considered touching topic, it
509
00:29:57,832 --> 00:30:04,260
really does have to do with the fact that the
mind can calm the body, but it can work in
510
00:30:04,292 --> 00:30:04,756
reverse.
511
00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:07,452
If you're having any kind of communication
512
00:30:07,508 --> 00:30:12,924
with somebody and you touch them and it makes
them feel good, the body can also calm the
513
00:30:12,964 --> 00:30:13,596
mind.
514
00:30:13,780 --> 00:30:14,540
Moshe: True enough.
515
00:30:14,652 --> 00:30:20,708
Leah: And that's why, you know, touch is
important in terms of something being
516
00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:21,132
touching.
517
00:30:21,188 --> 00:30:22,692
Does it touch your mind or your emotions
518
00:30:22,748 --> 00:30:26,476
first, or your body?
And it's all sort of reversible and all very
519
00:30:26,540 --> 00:30:31,674
important to human development, human well
being and communication.
520
00:30:32,294 --> 00:30:32,774
Moshe: Right.
521
00:30:32,854 --> 00:30:37,822
Leah: So that segues me into the idea that
touch will often complete an emotional
522
00:30:37,878 --> 00:30:38,474
experience.
523
00:30:39,054 --> 00:30:41,070
So what am I talking about with that?
524
00:30:41,262 --> 00:30:45,910
If you've ever had one of your friends, you've
probably even experienced this with me, where
525
00:30:45,942 --> 00:30:50,678
they're sitting there and they just look
really upset and on the verge of tears.
526
00:30:50,846 --> 00:30:52,798
And you go up to them and you go, what's
wrong?
527
00:30:52,886 --> 00:30:57,848
And the second you put their hand on them is
when the dam breaks and they burst into tears.
528
00:30:58,016 --> 00:31:03,712
They needed your help to get all the way
through that emotion because they couldn't do
529
00:31:03,728 --> 00:31:04,328
it themselves.
530
00:31:04,416 --> 00:31:05,792
So your touch would.
531
00:31:05,888 --> 00:31:09,284
Would just complete that emotion for them.
532
00:31:09,784 --> 00:31:16,224
Moshe: It's an interesting concept, and as an
under divergent, my question would be, why?
533
00:31:16,304 --> 00:31:20,448
Why does touch create that emotional
experience for them?
534
00:31:20,616 --> 00:31:23,992
Leah: For me, I can tell you it's almost like
completing a circuit.
535
00:31:24,168 --> 00:31:28,864
Remember in science when you had to study
electricity and, you know, if one of the
536
00:31:28,904 --> 00:31:32,656
batteries are missing, then the machine
doesn't turn on for me.
537
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,712
Sometimes I can't complete my emotional
experience without touch from somebody that I
538
00:31:38,728 --> 00:31:40,888
love and care about, who I know cares about
me.
539
00:31:40,936 --> 00:31:43,564
It's like putting a battery into a toy.
540
00:31:44,744 --> 00:31:50,240
Moshe: My interpretation of that is actually
related to my interpretation of touch in
541
00:31:50,272 --> 00:31:50,926
general.
542
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,202
And it's very much the same as you described
543
00:31:54,298 --> 00:31:55,770
completing a circuit.
544
00:31:55,962 --> 00:31:59,786
It's kind of like when you are feeling an
545
00:31:59,810 --> 00:32:08,026
emotion, regardless of whether it's a positive
emotion or a negative emotion, you are feeling
546
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:16,238
that emotion inside yourself, inside your
bubble, inside your zone.
547
00:32:16,426 --> 00:32:23,806
But when you touch somebody, it's like you're
entering their zone and suddenly they can feel
548
00:32:23,870 --> 00:32:25,590
that emotion with you.
549
00:32:25,662 --> 00:32:26,382
Leah: Absolutely.
550
00:32:26,438 --> 00:32:28,238
I used a negative emotion as the first
551
00:32:28,286 --> 00:32:33,462
example, but I can think of another where, you
know, it's a holiday and you're already really
552
00:32:33,518 --> 00:32:33,958
joyful.
553
00:32:34,006 --> 00:32:36,694
But when, you know, a man comes up to you and
554
00:32:36,814 --> 00:32:41,990
grabs your hand and has you dance, you're even
more joyful because you're feeling the joy
555
00:32:42,022 --> 00:32:43,546
together, right?
556
00:32:43,610 --> 00:32:51,394
Moshe: Or for example, to use a more localized
example, if someone, by the way, if someone
557
00:32:51,434 --> 00:32:53,890
wants to do this, they're absolutely welcome
to.
558
00:32:54,002 --> 00:32:59,730
But if someone were to come into our apartment
and go, I'm going to hand you like, a million
559
00:32:59,802 --> 00:33:06,570
dollars right now, or a million shekels right
now, my first instinct would be like, grab
560
00:33:06,602 --> 00:33:07,354
Leah's hand.
561
00:33:07,474 --> 00:33:08,570
Did you hear that?
562
00:33:08,682 --> 00:33:09,162
Leah: Yeah.
563
00:33:09,258 --> 00:33:13,650
Moshe: Because what you're doing is you're
saying you're immediately forming that
564
00:33:13,682 --> 00:33:16,762
connection, experiencing it together, and
you're going, this is amazing news.
565
00:33:16,818 --> 00:33:18,386
Let's experience it together.
566
00:33:18,570 --> 00:33:20,802
On a very basic level, it's like I have a very
567
00:33:20,858 --> 00:33:23,854
strong emotion and I want us both to share it.
568
00:33:24,594 --> 00:33:27,450
Or when someone is very upset and you take
569
00:33:27,482 --> 00:33:29,698
their hand, you go, I see that you're very
sad.
570
00:33:29,786 --> 00:33:31,850
Let me share your pain with you.
571
00:33:32,002 --> 00:33:35,678
And that is, to me at least, why that whole
572
00:33:35,766 --> 00:33:39,782
emotional outburst happens when you touch
someone.
573
00:33:39,838 --> 00:33:45,374
Because you're saying, I see you're
experiencing something, I'm now going to touch
574
00:33:45,414 --> 00:33:45,994
you.
575
00:33:46,294 --> 00:33:48,034
Let's experience it together.
576
00:33:48,374 --> 00:33:55,014
Or at the very least, I am now with you,
helping you to experience whatever you're
577
00:33:55,054 --> 00:33:55,914
going through.
578
00:33:56,254 --> 00:33:59,682
It's very much a physical manifestation.
579
00:33:59,838 --> 00:34:03,530
There's a big word of the concept of empathy.
580
00:34:03,682 --> 00:34:05,226
You are feeling a thing.
581
00:34:05,370 --> 00:34:06,674
I'm touching you now.
582
00:34:06,794 --> 00:34:09,954
So in at least a small way, I'm also feeling
583
00:34:09,994 --> 00:34:10,770
that thing.
584
00:34:10,922 --> 00:34:14,614
And that is why touch is such an emotional
585
00:34:15,074 --> 00:34:16,970
experience for certain people.
586
00:34:17,162 --> 00:34:20,546
And also, I guess, the reverse, where if
587
00:34:20,570 --> 00:34:26,566
you're feeling a certain way and someone goes
to touch you and go, don't touch me, I guess
588
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:32,334
that can be related to in the sense of I am
feeling such a strong emotion.
589
00:34:32,494 --> 00:34:35,022
I'm trying now to protect you from it.
590
00:34:35,078 --> 00:34:37,670
Yeah, because I am just feeling so much right
591
00:34:37,702 --> 00:34:48,158
now that I don't want you to have to
experience this and that.
592
00:34:48,246 --> 00:34:53,020
I mean, I'm sure there's lots of other reasons
why people would reject touch it at moments of
593
00:34:53,052 --> 00:34:53,784
crisis.
594
00:34:56,844 --> 00:35:00,332
And also, at least for my part, sometimes when
595
00:35:00,348 --> 00:35:09,420
you're experiencing a very strong emotion, you
are feeling really overwhelmed by whatever.
596
00:35:09,572 --> 00:35:12,820
Normally it's negative emotion, because why
would you want to protect people from happy
597
00:35:12,852 --> 00:35:17,588
things?
And by trying to isolate yourself and distance
598
00:35:17,636 --> 00:35:26,814
yourself and stay away from people, it allows
you to sort of, in a sense, explode without
599
00:35:27,114 --> 00:35:28,634
harming anyone else.
600
00:35:28,794 --> 00:35:34,906
Leah: Also, sometimes something so bad happens
that you really need to feel miserable for a
601
00:35:34,970 --> 00:35:39,362
while and you don't want to feel better, so
you don't want that other person to help you
602
00:35:39,378 --> 00:35:40,114
feel better, right?
603
00:35:40,194 --> 00:35:40,946
Moshe: Exactly.
604
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:43,682
Because sometimes human touch is like a siphon
605
00:35:43,818 --> 00:35:45,386
it, like, pulls things away.
606
00:35:45,450 --> 00:35:48,798
And you're like, no, no, I need to feel this
607
00:35:48,846 --> 00:35:50,006
to its extent.
608
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:53,550
I can't, like, I can't give you any of my.
609
00:35:53,622 --> 00:35:55,726
I can't give you anything right now.
610
00:35:55,870 --> 00:35:58,862
I need to feel this for at least a bit, and
611
00:35:58,918 --> 00:36:03,238
then I will come to you and let you take some
of it from me or feel it with me.
612
00:36:03,286 --> 00:36:03,822
Leah: Yeah.
613
00:36:03,958 --> 00:36:05,382
Moshe: And, I mean, I don't know.
614
00:36:05,558 --> 00:36:07,838
You can argue that that's not necessarily a
615
00:36:07,846 --> 00:36:08,966
very helpful thing.
616
00:36:09,070 --> 00:36:10,030
Leah: It's not healthy.
617
00:36:10,062 --> 00:36:13,134
But sometimes something is just so awful that
618
00:36:13,174 --> 00:36:16,726
you need to feel it in order to process it, or
it's never going to be processed.
619
00:36:16,790 --> 00:36:19,910
Moshe: Everyone knows their brain a little bit
better than anyone else.
620
00:36:19,982 --> 00:36:23,674
And some people process things better in
groups.
621
00:36:24,254 --> 00:36:27,034
Some people process things better
individually.
622
00:36:28,214 --> 00:36:32,638
Some people deal with things on their own
better.
623
00:36:32,726 --> 00:36:37,034
And some people deal with things by sharing it
with others.
624
00:36:38,274 --> 00:36:40,930
For my part, I actually go with the latter.
625
00:36:41,082 --> 00:36:43,530
And it goes back to that thing that I've
626
00:36:43,562 --> 00:36:49,722
mentioned a few times where sometimes
something happens to me and it's kind of like
627
00:36:49,738 --> 00:36:51,250
a bowl of cookie dough.
628
00:36:51,442 --> 00:36:53,306
And I kind of, like, bring it to Leah and go,
629
00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:56,970
what do you make of this?
And you go, I think you're trying to make
630
00:36:57,002 --> 00:36:57,458
sadness.
631
00:36:57,506 --> 00:36:58,730
And I'll go, oh, wow.
632
00:36:58,802 --> 00:36:59,834
Yeah, you're right.
633
00:36:59,954 --> 00:37:01,498
This does make me sad.
634
00:37:01,626 --> 00:37:02,274
Leah: Right?
635
00:37:02,434 --> 00:37:08,224
Moshe: Because if you were not, unfortunately,
as emotionally developed some neurodivergents
636
00:37:08,264 --> 00:37:16,432
aren't, then you can feel a thing and act out
in a way, but you don't know why it's
637
00:37:16,488 --> 00:37:16,792
negative.
638
00:37:16,848 --> 00:37:19,032
It's positive, especially if it's negative,
639
00:37:19,128 --> 00:37:24,912
and you lash out and you're yelling and
screaming and banging yourself against things
640
00:37:24,968 --> 00:37:26,240
and hitting yourself.
641
00:37:26,432 --> 00:37:29,064
You're like, okay, so this person's very
642
00:37:29,144 --> 00:37:29,964
upset.
643
00:37:30,944 --> 00:37:33,444
I want to help him, but I don't know what
644
00:37:33,754 --> 00:37:35,174
making him upset.
645
00:37:36,034 --> 00:37:38,094
Let's help him to process.
646
00:37:38,514 --> 00:37:45,242
And if someone is unfortunately, differently
verbal, then you have someone who's like,
647
00:37:45,258 --> 00:37:48,706
okay, you know what, hon?
You seem really upset right now.
648
00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:53,154
Did that thing that just happened make you
feel really bad?
649
00:37:53,234 --> 00:37:53,570
Is it.
650
00:37:53,602 --> 00:37:55,458
Is that what's making you feel really angry?
651
00:37:55,546 --> 00:37:57,106
You have to kind of be CSI.
652
00:37:57,170 --> 00:38:00,172
You have to be like, okay, so we were just in
653
00:38:00,188 --> 00:38:01,460
a really stressful situation.
654
00:38:01,532 --> 00:38:03,224
Is that what's upsetting you?
655
00:38:03,524 --> 00:38:08,804
And even the acknowledgement of that situation
makes them just calm down.
656
00:38:08,844 --> 00:38:10,372
Okay, now I get it.
657
00:38:10,508 --> 00:38:12,404
Now I know why I'm upset.
658
00:38:12,564 --> 00:38:13,404
Leah: But here's the thing.
659
00:38:13,444 --> 00:38:15,220
You describe yourself as less emotionally
660
00:38:15,252 --> 00:38:16,708
mature and not understanding.
661
00:38:16,756 --> 00:38:19,748
However, what you really are good at is
662
00:38:19,796 --> 00:38:22,716
reading signs and signals that repeat.
663
00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:25,724
So I have a thing where the reason I just
664
00:38:25,764 --> 00:38:30,136
talked about it is sometimes when I'm dealing
with something really stressful, I don't want
665
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,456
to feel better right at that moment, and I
won't come to anybody, but then when I'm ready
666
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,560
to share it, I'll come to you and I'll just
climb into your arms or whatever, and that is
667
00:38:39,632 --> 00:38:40,272
always your kid.
668
00:38:40,288 --> 00:38:41,776
I go, oh, hon, what's wrong?
669
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,624
Like, you'll know I don't have to talk about
it.
670
00:38:45,704 --> 00:38:46,040
Moshe: Exactly.
671
00:38:46,072 --> 00:38:50,920
Leah: And that's you reading a situation
that's happened enough to know, and that's.
672
00:38:50,952 --> 00:38:56,066
Moshe: That comes with experience, because a
lot of situations are going to be different,
673
00:38:56,170 --> 00:39:02,250
and especially when it comes to touch, couples
often struggle with.
674
00:39:02,362 --> 00:39:04,970
Is now a good time to touch you?
Should I be comforting you?
675
00:39:05,002 --> 00:39:08,058
Do you want me to hug you?
Should I not touch you?
676
00:39:08,186 --> 00:39:11,018
Is this where I leave you alone?
Nope.
677
00:39:11,146 --> 00:39:12,378
You're looking that way.
678
00:39:12,506 --> 00:39:14,322
This is where you want me to go up to you and
679
00:39:14,338 --> 00:39:17,814
hug you and go, I'm so sorry this is happening
to you right now.
680
00:39:18,194 --> 00:39:20,674
Or maybe it's not the time.
681
00:39:20,754 --> 00:39:23,622
You just need to be away and process it, in
682
00:39:23,638 --> 00:39:25,014
which case I'll be here.
683
00:39:25,174 --> 00:39:27,926
But when you want something, I'm right here.
684
00:39:28,030 --> 00:39:29,926
I need you to come to me.
685
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:30,678
Like, whatever.
686
00:39:30,806 --> 00:39:32,638
Whatever the dynamic is that works.
687
00:39:32,686 --> 00:39:37,710
Leah: Yeah. So, I mean, that's actually a good
segue into the next thing, which is that
688
00:39:37,742 --> 00:39:41,878
tucked helps us understand the other person's
intentions or emotions.
689
00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:46,118
You talked about that earlier, saying, how do
I know if Leah's still mad at me?
690
00:39:46,166 --> 00:39:48,774
I know because I can feel it under her hand.
691
00:39:48,854 --> 00:39:50,530
I can literally feel it.
692
00:39:50,662 --> 00:39:52,250
Moshe: Yeah, it's a bit new.
693
00:39:52,282 --> 00:39:53,290
Easy to say.
694
00:39:53,442 --> 00:39:59,506
But when you are as accustomed to touches as I
am a lot of the time, then there is a big
695
00:39:59,570 --> 00:40:05,898
difference between when Leah hugs me because
she's happy and when Leah hugs me because
696
00:40:06,066 --> 00:40:09,114
she's upset about something else.
697
00:40:09,274 --> 00:40:11,282
And when Leah hugs me when she's upset about
698
00:40:11,338 --> 00:40:14,490
something that I did, like, you can tell the
difference.
699
00:40:14,562 --> 00:40:18,618
And it could be something subtle, or it could
be like, she's hugging me and then, like, I
700
00:40:18,626 --> 00:40:19,698
don't know, kicking me or something.
701
00:40:19,746 --> 00:40:20,082
I don't know.
702
00:40:20,098 --> 00:40:21,134
You never gave her.
703
00:40:21,874 --> 00:40:23,654
There's always gonna be differences.
704
00:40:24,514 --> 00:40:29,574
Leah: But touch, people are gonna send the
police here to rescue you.
705
00:40:30,274 --> 00:40:40,570
Moshe: But touch helps a person to understand
your intentions, because a lot.
706
00:40:40,602 --> 00:40:46,338
I mean, and I'm not going into communication
styles now, but a lot of the communication
707
00:40:46,506 --> 00:40:55,186
that the humans employ is nonverbal, which is
where neurodivergents are generally not.
708
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:55,854
Good.
709
00:40:56,514 --> 00:40:58,146
Verbal is clear.
710
00:40:58,290 --> 00:41:02,322
What you say is what you mean, and what you
mean is what you say generally.
711
00:41:02,458 --> 00:41:10,060
But when it comes to nonverbal, the
stereotypical example is, did I. Did that
712
00:41:10,092 --> 00:41:13,864
thing that I just said really upset you?
No, I'm fine.
713
00:41:14,324 --> 00:41:16,580
Is a lot different than that thing really
upset you.
714
00:41:16,612 --> 00:41:18,500
No, honey, I'm fine.
715
00:41:18,612 --> 00:41:24,044
Hug, hug, kiss, kiss, touch establishes a
716
00:41:24,084 --> 00:41:28,812
connection, and it establishes kind of where
you stand, and it makes the difference
717
00:41:28,868 --> 00:41:33,844
between, you did nothing wrong and I'm just
upset about something else, and you did
718
00:41:33,924 --> 00:41:35,024
something wrong.
719
00:41:35,454 --> 00:41:37,034
And I just.
720
00:41:37,334 --> 00:41:39,074
I need you to understand.
721
00:41:39,934 --> 00:41:44,078
Leah: It's sometimes hard to read other
people's faces, even for me or for other
722
00:41:44,126 --> 00:41:47,182
neurotypicals, because your face is going to
do what it does.
723
00:41:47,318 --> 00:41:50,394
Some people's face doesn't match their emotion
at all.
724
00:41:51,014 --> 00:41:51,918
Mine doesn't?
725
00:41:52,006 --> 00:41:52,422
Moshe: No.
726
00:41:52,518 --> 00:41:55,774
Leah: When I'm concentrating, I can look
really, really angry.
727
00:41:55,894 --> 00:41:56,454
Moshe: Yeah.
728
00:41:56,574 --> 00:42:00,954
Leah: Or if I just forget to be pleasant,
honestly, I forget to be really, really angry.
729
00:42:01,534 --> 00:42:02,474
Moshe: That's true.
730
00:42:03,014 --> 00:42:06,154
Leah: You have the same problem, actually,
yes.
731
00:42:07,014 --> 00:42:13,462
So if you come over to me and give me a warm
touch, I'm like, okay, he's not angry or
732
00:42:13,478 --> 00:42:13,710
whatever.
733
00:42:13,742 --> 00:42:15,182
He's just concentrating.
734
00:42:15,358 --> 00:42:18,966
So it's a really quick way to read somebody's
intentions.
735
00:42:19,150 --> 00:42:20,470
Moshe: Now, I just.
736
00:42:20,622 --> 00:42:23,398
I would be remiss if I didn't include animals
737
00:42:23,446 --> 00:42:33,482
in that, too, because when you establish a
connection with an animal, you can both, to a
738
00:42:33,498 --> 00:42:36,138
certain extent, they can feel where you're at.
739
00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:38,254
And you can feel where they're at.
740
00:42:38,954 --> 00:42:40,034
Because if you're staring.
741
00:42:40,074 --> 00:42:40,474
I don't know.
742
00:42:40,514 --> 00:42:42,522
I'll use a dog as an example.
743
00:42:42,658 --> 00:42:45,274
If you're looking at a dog, you don't always
744
00:42:45,354 --> 00:42:48,530
know where their head is at.
745
00:42:48,722 --> 00:42:50,386
Sometimes the dog doesn't even know where
746
00:42:50,410 --> 00:42:51,010
their head is at.
747
00:42:51,042 --> 00:42:51,746
Leah: Correct.
748
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:54,082
Moshe: The dog is very suspicious of you.
749
00:42:54,218 --> 00:42:56,074
You're very suspicious of the dog.
750
00:42:56,194 --> 00:42:57,826
There's a bit of an impasse.
751
00:42:57,970 --> 00:42:59,762
But then you kind of put your hand out a
752
00:42:59,778 --> 00:43:02,574
little bit, and maybe they sniff your hand.
753
00:43:03,074 --> 00:43:06,642
And because dogs have a lot of sensitivity in
754
00:43:06,658 --> 00:43:12,378
their nose, the whole act of putting their
nose on your hand establishes that physical
755
00:43:12,426 --> 00:43:18,186
touch for the dog, a lot of the time will
establish that level of trust.
756
00:43:18,330 --> 00:43:20,304
Okay, so now I'm touching it now.
757
00:43:20,354 --> 00:43:22,104
Now we have some connection.
758
00:43:22,604 --> 00:43:26,228
And then you can advance to, maybe you're
putting your head on their head, their hand on
759
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:30,172
their head, or their hand on their body, and
you're making that connection.
760
00:43:30,228 --> 00:43:34,276
You're telling that dog, okay, you can trust
me.
761
00:43:34,420 --> 00:43:39,540
Whereas alternatively, if the dog shies away
from your touch or you.
762
00:43:39,612 --> 00:43:44,884
You touch it, and you can feel stiffness or
you know, it's not.
763
00:43:45,044 --> 00:43:51,778
It doesn't feel warm, and it feels very tense,
then, you know, okay, so this dog is not in a
764
00:43:51,786 --> 00:43:52,226
good place.
765
00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:54,174
I might want to pull my hand back.
766
00:43:55,034 --> 00:43:56,730
And we teach kids that.
767
00:43:56,842 --> 00:43:59,010
We tell children, let the dog come to you.
768
00:43:59,082 --> 00:44:00,570
Like, let the dog come to you.
769
00:44:00,682 --> 00:44:03,258
If you touch a dog and you feel like it's
770
00:44:03,306 --> 00:44:08,850
maybe not doing, even before it starts
growling or stiffening up, if you feel that
771
00:44:08,882 --> 00:44:13,908
maybe the dog is not, like, responding to your
touch, pull your hand back, take a step back.
772
00:44:13,956 --> 00:44:16,948
Leah: That's hard with little dogs because
little dogs can act like they like you, and
773
00:44:16,956 --> 00:44:17,516
then they'll bite you.
774
00:44:17,540 --> 00:44:19,060
Moshe: Little dogs and cats.
775
00:44:19,132 --> 00:44:21,532
Cats will like, pat, pat, pat, chomp.
776
00:44:21,708 --> 00:44:23,428
Cats are weird that way, too.
777
00:44:23,596 --> 00:44:24,676
I'm used to big dogs.
778
00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:26,268
I've always had really large dogs.
779
00:44:26,356 --> 00:44:29,332
So for a big dog with lots of muscles, when
780
00:44:29,348 --> 00:44:34,596
you touch a dog, you can usually see if it's
feeling relaxed or tense, even if you're
781
00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:35,052
blind.
782
00:44:35,148 --> 00:44:38,572
Leah: And to be honest with you, the trust
with a big dog has to be there because you
783
00:44:38,588 --> 00:44:43,622
have an animal in your home that can actually
kill you if they chose to, and it has to be
784
00:44:43,638 --> 00:44:44,270
there.
785
00:44:44,462 --> 00:44:46,794
Moshe: Yeah. So animals are very.
786
00:44:48,454 --> 00:44:51,094
Animals are very responsive to touch to.
787
00:44:51,254 --> 00:44:57,110
And if an animal will approach you, actually,
if you have an animal that will actually come
788
00:44:57,142 --> 00:45:02,926
to you, whether it's a dog or a bird or some
other animal, you want the animal to come to
789
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:06,062
you, whether you have food or just you're
putting your hand out, and they kind of want
790
00:45:06,078 --> 00:45:07,424
to figure out what's going on.
791
00:45:07,574 --> 00:45:10,540
When you have that touch with that animal,
792
00:45:10,652 --> 00:45:11,828
you're establishing trust.
793
00:45:11,876 --> 00:45:14,436
And just like with a person, when you touch a
794
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:17,744
person, you are letting the person know I'm
here.
795
00:45:18,564 --> 00:45:25,660
Either I'm feeling that emotion with you, or
at the very basic level here, you know, I'm
796
00:45:25,692 --> 00:45:26,548
touching you.
797
00:45:26,676 --> 00:45:28,064
You can trust me.
798
00:45:28,484 --> 00:45:33,670
Which is why they tell people if you want to
establish trust with someone in sale, put your
799
00:45:33,702 --> 00:45:34,510
hand on their shoulder.
800
00:45:34,542 --> 00:45:35,454
Leah: That's gross, though.
801
00:45:35,534 --> 00:45:37,806
Moshe: It's gross, but it's a tactic.
802
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:39,634
It's like, hey, how's it going?
803
00:45:40,014 --> 00:45:45,126
You know, the salesman will like, you know,
grab your shoulder, go, hey, how's it going?
804
00:45:45,310 --> 00:45:46,430
Because we.
805
00:45:46,502 --> 00:45:49,630
They're taught that touch establishes trust.
806
00:45:49,822 --> 00:45:52,974
It's fake trust, but it's still trust.
807
00:45:53,054 --> 00:45:55,502
Leah: That was actually the next topic, so you
already covered it.
808
00:45:55,558 --> 00:45:55,902
Moshe: Well, I know.
809
00:45:55,918 --> 00:45:56,518
I'm reading down.
810
00:45:56,566 --> 00:45:57,314
Leah: Oh, all right.
811
00:45:58,134 --> 00:45:58,574
All right.
812
00:45:58,614 --> 00:46:01,822
So touch can reduce pain and enhance joy.
813
00:46:01,998 --> 00:46:02,754
Moshe: Yes.
814
00:46:04,054 --> 00:46:12,406
Leah: Especially if it's somebody that you
love and you have an oxytocin bond with no so
815
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:17,934
an example, this is quite personal, but an
example is when I'm menstruating and I'm very
816
00:46:17,974 --> 00:46:18,710
uncomfortable.
817
00:46:18,822 --> 00:46:23,126
I want cuddles and hugs from you constantly.
818
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:23,638
Moshe: Yes.
819
00:46:23,686 --> 00:46:25,974
Leah: Because it literally will calm my body
down.
820
00:46:26,014 --> 00:46:30,218
It will cause pain relief.
821
00:46:30,386 --> 00:46:39,066
Moshe: Yeah. Touch with someone that you trust
or someone that you care about can have a
822
00:46:39,090 --> 00:46:40,218
calming effect on the body.
823
00:46:40,266 --> 00:46:42,994
Not just when someone's menstruating, because
824
00:46:43,074 --> 00:46:48,690
obviously I don't, but when I'm very upset,
when I'm very anxious, when I'm very tense,
825
00:46:48,802 --> 00:46:51,802
when I'm very unsure about what's going on.
826
00:46:51,938 --> 00:46:52,690
When.
827
00:46:52,882 --> 00:46:58,226
Because I'm autistic, you know, I'm hoping
that by episode, where are we at?
828
00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:02,186
Like eleven now?
By episode eleven, you should probably know
829
00:47:02,210 --> 00:47:04,130
that when we talk about now, you know, one
autistic.
830
00:47:04,162 --> 00:47:05,162
I'm not one autistic.
831
00:47:05,218 --> 00:47:06,010
So I'm autistic.
832
00:47:06,042 --> 00:47:10,778
And sometimes not just with Leah, but with
other people, I don't always know what's going
833
00:47:10,826 --> 00:47:18,042
on because reading facial cues, reading
personal, like space, nonverbal, whatever, I
834
00:47:18,058 --> 00:47:18,986
don't always know.
835
00:47:19,130 --> 00:47:21,962
So sometimes I'm in that neutral zone where
836
00:47:21,978 --> 00:47:26,098
I'll be like, leah, are you okay?
Or is there something going on?
837
00:47:26,226 --> 00:47:27,802
I'm exhibiting anxiety.
838
00:47:27,938 --> 00:47:32,130
I am sort of casting a line into Leah and
839
00:47:32,162 --> 00:47:35,854
going, okay, I need to catch something from
you.
840
00:47:36,634 --> 00:47:45,002
And you can establish that level of joy or the
level of comfort, that reduction of anxiety,
841
00:47:45,178 --> 00:47:50,882
that feeling of peace by sort of hugging me or
touching me and going, I'm fine, Rosha.
842
00:47:50,938 --> 00:47:52,578
I'm just really distracted.
843
00:47:52,626 --> 00:47:55,978
I'm really dizzy, or I just had a really tough
844
00:47:56,026 --> 00:47:57,574
conversation on the phone.
845
00:47:59,154 --> 00:48:04,930
And before I became more religious, my
846
00:48:04,962 --> 00:48:07,974
employers would actually have that.
847
00:48:08,314 --> 00:48:09,934
It was like an introduction.
848
00:48:11,194 --> 00:48:11,842
Kelly.
849
00:48:11,938 --> 00:48:12,974
Liberty Kelly.
850
00:48:13,834 --> 00:48:15,410
I was very close with Kelly.
851
00:48:15,442 --> 00:48:19,866
Kelly was my manager for a previous job for a
852
00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:20,826
number of years.
853
00:48:20,970 --> 00:48:23,170
And every single meeting would start the same
854
00:48:23,202 --> 00:48:23,538
way.
855
00:48:23,626 --> 00:48:25,414
Moshe, can I talk to you for a minute?
856
00:48:26,914 --> 00:48:27,658
Sure.
857
00:48:27,826 --> 00:48:28,890
Don't worry, Moshe.
858
00:48:28,962 --> 00:48:30,314
You've done nothing wrong.
859
00:48:30,474 --> 00:48:30,986
Okay?
860
00:48:31,050 --> 00:48:32,506
I want to make sure you're not.
861
00:48:32,650 --> 00:48:34,690
Just take a seat.
862
00:48:34,882 --> 00:48:36,894
I just want to see how things are going.
863
00:48:37,674 --> 00:48:39,290
You establish that trust?
864
00:48:39,402 --> 00:48:40,094
Yep.
865
00:48:42,394 --> 00:48:44,922
To the point when there were even points where
866
00:48:44,938 --> 00:48:49,482
I was having a particularly bad day where she
would actually like, can I hug you?
867
00:48:49,498 --> 00:48:50,218
Is that okay?
868
00:48:50,306 --> 00:48:52,506
Leah: Very smushable person, though.
869
00:48:52,690 --> 00:48:56,506
Moshe: And that feeling of, I want to talk to
you.
870
00:48:56,650 --> 00:48:57,258
But here's.
871
00:48:57,306 --> 00:48:58,414
Here's touch.
872
00:48:58,834 --> 00:49:05,866
And touch can bring a tense situation down to
a much less tense or even a resolved
873
00:49:05,930 --> 00:49:06,510
situation.
874
00:49:06,642 --> 00:49:07,662
Leah: See, it's very different.
875
00:49:07,718 --> 00:49:11,078
So you're speaking about your manager, who was
876
00:49:11,126 --> 00:49:13,278
a woman and an older woman.
877
00:49:13,446 --> 00:49:16,382
So she was kind of, I guess, in a mother role.
878
00:49:16,438 --> 00:49:17,302
Kind of, yeah.
879
00:49:17,358 --> 00:49:20,030
It is very different for me, having a male
880
00:49:20,062 --> 00:49:21,638
boss coming up and touching me.
881
00:49:21,686 --> 00:49:23,354
Moshe: Obviously very different.
882
00:49:24,894 --> 00:49:28,034
And again, not just one autistic, but one man.
883
00:49:29,454 --> 00:49:32,946
Males with female bosses, especially.
884
00:49:33,090 --> 00:49:34,890
And again, now I'm going to get into trouble,
885
00:49:35,042 --> 00:49:37,494
especially older female bosses.
886
00:49:38,154 --> 00:49:43,914
Oftentimes the man will view them in, like, a
887
00:49:43,954 --> 00:49:44,570
motherly room.
888
00:49:44,602 --> 00:49:44,746
Leah: Right.
889
00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:46,786
Like, you were going to be intimidated by her.
890
00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:48,514
Whereas the other way around for me.
891
00:49:48,554 --> 00:49:53,514
Moshe: Whereas a younger girl with an older
man who is like, how are you doing?
892
00:49:53,674 --> 00:49:56,474
Putting your hand on their shoulder, giving
them a hug.
893
00:49:56,554 --> 00:49:57,530
Leah: Absolutely not.
894
00:49:57,642 --> 00:50:03,496
Moshe: Absolutely different connotations,
absolutely different circumstances.
895
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,832
But for whatever reason, we can talk about the
concept of sexism in the workplace or
896
00:50:07,848 --> 00:50:08,112
whatever.
897
00:50:08,168 --> 00:50:09,136
Leah: Double standard.
898
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:09,968
Absolutely.
899
00:50:10,016 --> 00:50:11,384
But it's totally real.
900
00:50:11,544 --> 00:50:21,648
Moshe: When an older supervisor physically
touches or hugs their male subordinate, it
901
00:50:21,696 --> 00:50:28,020
oftentimes is in a very motherly,
grandmotherly, you know, kind role, whereas
902
00:50:28,052 --> 00:50:31,076
the reverse is absolutely the opposite.
903
00:50:31,220 --> 00:50:34,692
And again, this is not a podcast on workplace
904
00:50:34,748 --> 00:50:35,584
politics.
905
00:50:35,924 --> 00:50:42,836
And as a, as a, as a, as a rule, both leah and
906
00:50:42,860 --> 00:50:46,876
I advocate that if you are a supervisor in a
workplace, don't touch people.
907
00:50:46,940 --> 00:50:48,276
Don't touch your employee.
908
00:50:48,380 --> 00:50:49,620
Leah: I was a supervisor.
909
00:50:49,692 --> 00:50:54,798
Moshe: It's really not gonna go anywhere good
for a lot of people.
910
00:50:54,846 --> 00:50:56,734
And in fact, it may result in complaints.
911
00:50:56,774 --> 00:51:00,554
Leah: I was a supervisor, and I really made a
point of not touching people.
912
00:51:01,454 --> 00:51:06,334
Moshe: To the extent that you don't want to
touch your co workers.
913
00:51:06,494 --> 00:51:14,054
And they even tell, like, teachers after a
certain grade, you don't even touch your
914
00:51:14,094 --> 00:51:14,754
student.
915
00:51:15,574 --> 00:51:17,342
Leah: I mean, that's a whole other, that's.
916
00:51:17,358 --> 00:51:17,966
Moshe: A whole other thing.
917
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:23,152
But in the day, in the day right up until,
918
00:51:23,328 --> 00:51:27,444
like, the end of elementary school, teachers
were touching people.
919
00:51:27,944 --> 00:51:34,000
I had one teacher that used to hit a student
if they weren't paying attention, and that was
920
00:51:34,032 --> 00:51:42,440
expected, the mom would be like, the kid would
go home and go, misses whatever hit me.
921
00:51:42,552 --> 00:51:46,316
So were you paying attention?
Like, what were you doing to make her hate
922
00:51:46,340 --> 00:51:46,572
you?
923
00:51:46,628 --> 00:51:52,564
Leah: Actually, that happened to you again, we
discussed how, you know, we were essentially
924
00:51:52,604 --> 00:51:56,100
family when we were younger, and each other's
moms took care of each other and stuff.
925
00:51:56,132 --> 00:51:59,972
And yes, my mom would spank you, and you would
tell your mom, you know, Judy spanked me.
926
00:51:59,988 --> 00:52:01,388
And she'd be like, you deserved it.
927
00:52:01,476 --> 00:52:01,836
Moshe: Oh, yeah.
928
00:52:01,860 --> 00:52:03,076
And I absolutely did, because I was.
929
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:06,260
Leah: A bad, I don't actually remember, but.
930
00:52:06,292 --> 00:52:08,612
Moshe: But your mom, she was scary.
931
00:52:08,668 --> 00:52:09,356
Yeah, she was.
932
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:12,024
In her day, she was a scary, scary woman.
933
00:52:14,114 --> 00:52:15,282
Leah: Your mom didn't even question.
934
00:52:15,338 --> 00:52:16,354
She's like, you deserved it.
935
00:52:16,394 --> 00:52:19,818
Moshe: Yeah, I'm sure whatever she did to you,
you absolutely deserved.
936
00:52:19,946 --> 00:52:22,298
What did she hit you with, a stick?
Yeah, no problem.
937
00:52:22,466 --> 00:52:24,334
You must have done something really bad.
938
00:52:25,634 --> 00:52:29,122
Leah: Anyway, moving along, it was the
eighties.
939
00:52:29,178 --> 00:52:29,930
Guys don't judge.
940
00:52:29,962 --> 00:52:33,874
Moshe: It was the eighties, and people hit
everyone then we don't do it anymore.
941
00:52:33,994 --> 00:52:34,850
There's other ways.
942
00:52:34,922 --> 00:52:39,754
Leah: Speaking of children, touch deprivation,
let's discuss that for a little bit.
943
00:52:39,914 --> 00:52:40,614
Moshe: Right.
944
00:52:41,114 --> 00:52:44,306
Leah: Not too long, because, of course, we've
already used up all our time, as usual.
945
00:52:44,370 --> 00:52:53,250
Moshe: But touch deprecation is a really,
really, really complex subject that they've
946
00:52:53,282 --> 00:52:55,554
actually done scientific studies on.
947
00:52:55,634 --> 00:52:56,418
Leah: You can google them.
948
00:52:56,466 --> 00:52:58,042
You should if you're interested.
949
00:52:58,138 --> 00:53:03,154
Moshe: I think the studies that we learned
about or that I learned about in psychology
950
00:53:03,234 --> 00:53:04,100
101.
951
00:53:04,242 --> 00:53:06,224
Was it a russian orphanage?
952
00:53:06,304 --> 00:53:09,984
Leah: Yeah. So they didn't do the study on
purpose because it literally would have been
953
00:53:10,064 --> 00:53:10,672
cruelty.
954
00:53:10,768 --> 00:53:11,280
Moshe: Oh, absolutely.
955
00:53:11,312 --> 00:53:12,240
Leah: What they did was they.
956
00:53:12,272 --> 00:53:14,840
They found kids that were neglected in russian
957
00:53:14,872 --> 00:53:17,368
orphanages, and they followed them through
life.
958
00:53:17,536 --> 00:53:23,524
And they saw that the deprivation of touch as
babies caused them to have global delays,
959
00:53:23,864 --> 00:53:26,712
essentially, until they stopped following
them.
960
00:53:26,848 --> 00:53:27,524
Moshe: Right.
961
00:53:27,984 --> 00:53:31,434
Leah: And emotionally, they couldn't develop.
962
00:53:31,624 --> 00:53:33,194
They were slower learners.
963
00:53:34,094 --> 00:53:37,270
They had mental illness, even physically.
964
00:53:37,342 --> 00:53:40,102
They didn't grow as well or didn't want to
965
00:53:40,118 --> 00:53:40,478
eat.
966
00:53:40,566 --> 00:53:41,126
Didn't want to.
967
00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:43,366
Moshe: You know, a lot of these are
unintentional studies.
968
00:53:43,470 --> 00:53:48,438
There were significant, intentional,
unfortunately, studies on a number of
969
00:53:48,526 --> 00:53:49,102
different things.
970
00:53:49,158 --> 00:53:52,814
There's the case of Jeannie, which I
971
00:53:52,854 --> 00:53:57,966
absolutely recommend you look up because it's
a fascinating case in childhood development.
972
00:53:58,070 --> 00:54:00,532
It's always enthralled me.
973
00:54:00,668 --> 00:54:06,612
They did a study on a monkey baby that was
974
00:54:06,628 --> 00:54:10,944
abandoned by its mother, and they ended up.
975
00:54:13,004 --> 00:54:14,860
The baby wasn't thriving.
976
00:54:14,932 --> 00:54:15,708
It wasn't eating.
977
00:54:15,796 --> 00:54:16,644
It wasn't drinking.
978
00:54:16,684 --> 00:54:18,460
It was essentially dying.
979
00:54:18,652 --> 00:54:23,620
And the keeper ended up introducing to their
980
00:54:23,652 --> 00:54:26,034
habitat a hand puppet.
981
00:54:26,414 --> 00:54:27,926
And it was just a hand puppet.
982
00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:29,222
It was made of a sock.
983
00:54:29,398 --> 00:54:33,070
But the mere fact that this baby chimp or
984
00:54:33,102 --> 00:54:40,702
whatever was able to hug this surrogate puppet
actually caused it to grow and thrive.
985
00:54:40,878 --> 00:54:46,918
Human touch, or the ability to feel a
connection with something.
986
00:54:47,046 --> 00:54:53,336
Is actually crucial to the development of
children and to the emotional development of
987
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:53,688
people.
988
00:54:53,776 --> 00:54:56,152
Leah: So with babies, it starts.
989
00:54:56,288 --> 00:54:57,696
I mean, while they're in the womb, they're
990
00:54:57,720 --> 00:54:58,840
touching you constantly.
991
00:54:58,912 --> 00:54:59,216
Moshe: Right.
992
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,560
Leah: But it starts immediately where if
they're not touched enough, it does impact
993
00:55:03,632 --> 00:55:04,008
development.
994
00:55:04,096 --> 00:55:07,584
Touch has been scientifically proven to be
995
00:55:07,664 --> 00:55:11,856
necessary not just for humans, but, as you
said, other animals as well.
996
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,416
But for humans, absolutely.
997
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,000
You can't grow without it.
998
00:55:16,072 --> 00:55:18,730
You can't thrive without it.
999
00:55:18,882 --> 00:55:21,374
It's hard sometimes to even live without it.
1000
00:55:21,914 --> 00:55:27,714
Moshe: Humans are unique in that a lot of
humans will actually intentionally isolate
1001
00:55:27,754 --> 00:55:29,374
themselves, at least partially.
1002
00:55:29,834 --> 00:55:32,654
But there are many animals, in particular,
1003
00:55:33,314 --> 00:55:39,250
most rodents, rats, mysterbals, hamsters, not
hamsters, hamsters or gross, but rats,
1004
00:55:39,282 --> 00:55:43,746
maesturbals, digues, and sugar gliders.
1005
00:55:43,850 --> 00:55:46,490
There is a, and again, this is a bit of a non
1006
00:55:46,522 --> 00:55:52,082
sequitur, but also relevant, there is a breed
of marsupial called a sugar glider, you might
1007
00:55:52,098 --> 00:55:55,170
have seen them, they have like the wings and
the fly, like flying sprouts.
1008
00:55:55,322 --> 00:56:01,434
And if you do not keep them in at least pairs,
but preferably groups of four or five or six,
1009
00:56:01,554 --> 00:56:02,882
they will actually die.
1010
00:56:03,018 --> 00:56:05,786
They actually require the touch of their own
1011
00:56:05,890 --> 00:56:07,898
species in order to function.
1012
00:56:07,986 --> 00:56:08,386
Leah: Absolutely.
1013
00:56:08,410 --> 00:56:11,370
But that's why you see, you know, when rodents
1014
00:56:11,402 --> 00:56:12,570
sleep, they sleep in piles.
1015
00:56:12,602 --> 00:56:14,634
There's a reason why it's called a dog pile.
1016
00:56:14,714 --> 00:56:18,410
Yeah, dogs will sleep in piles, or they sleep
with their masters in the bed.
1017
00:56:18,482 --> 00:56:22,254
Moshe: Most animals will, if given the option,
sleep in groups.
1018
00:56:22,634 --> 00:56:27,074
Even cats, who are by nature very isolating,
will often sleep together.
1019
00:56:27,194 --> 00:56:28,802
Leah: Yeah, absolutely.
1020
00:56:28,978 --> 00:56:32,322
So touch is just, it's a necessity of life,
1021
00:56:32,458 --> 00:56:36,178
right?
So the antithesis of touch deprivation, ocean.
1022
00:56:36,226 --> 00:56:40,108
Moshe: Leah, is animal climate, new podcast
ideas?
1023
00:56:40,196 --> 00:56:40,780
Leah: Absolutely.
1024
00:56:40,812 --> 00:56:44,864
No, you could probably do it just on your own.
1025
00:56:45,844 --> 00:56:51,724
So the antithesis of touch deprivation is
actually sort of a new theory that people have
1026
00:56:51,764 --> 00:56:53,500
called haptic communication.
1027
00:56:53,692 --> 00:56:54,948
Moshe: Right, explain what that is.
1028
00:56:54,996 --> 00:57:00,224
Leah: Now, the term haptic comes from the
greek root hapticos, which means touch,
1029
00:57:00,524 --> 00:57:04,386
because a lot of people don't know what haptic
means, but if you like, look at your cell
1030
00:57:04,410 --> 00:57:06,898
phone settings, it'll say if you have haptics
on or off.
1031
00:57:06,946 --> 00:57:10,770
Yes, the haptic is when your phone will
vibrate back to you so that you know you're
1032
00:57:10,802 --> 00:57:11,418
touching it.
1033
00:57:11,506 --> 00:57:12,178
Moshe: Yeah.
1034
00:57:12,346 --> 00:57:15,974
Leah: So essentially it does refer to touch
feedback.
1035
00:57:16,274 --> 00:57:20,282
So what people are trying to do now,
especially with children who are
1036
00:57:20,298 --> 00:57:27,170
neurodivergent, is always include in
communication some sort of habits.
1037
00:57:27,322 --> 00:57:32,504
So some sort of, either they physically touch
them or their, I don't know, in compression
1038
00:57:32,544 --> 00:57:38,416
clothing, or some sort of haptic feedback
while trying to do the verbal communication,
1039
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:42,408
because they've noticed, just like I noticed
through trial and error in our relationship,
1040
00:57:42,456 --> 00:57:47,008
that it's a much faster way to get the
information in to any child, really.
1041
00:57:47,056 --> 00:57:52,000
But especially neurodivergent children, and
especially differently.
1042
00:57:52,032 --> 00:57:57,890
Moshe: Verbal children, yes, if you want
something to connect with them verbally, touch
1043
00:57:57,962 --> 00:57:58,170
is.
1044
00:57:58,202 --> 00:58:01,570
Leah: Very important, and it's an interesting
theory behind it.
1045
00:58:01,722 --> 00:58:08,970
They think that because in the womb, touch is
the first sense to develop, therefore it is
1046
00:58:09,002 --> 00:58:14,226
the strongest sense I have heard that,
therefore it's required for basically
1047
00:58:14,410 --> 00:58:16,570
everything, right.
1048
00:58:16,762 --> 00:58:17,634
Moshe: And including.
1049
00:58:17,714 --> 00:58:23,658
It is very similar to, in a lot of ways, why a
1050
00:58:23,666 --> 00:58:27,066
lot of new mothers will often calm their
babies with the sound of a heartbeat or
1051
00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:27,490
something.
1052
00:58:27,602 --> 00:58:31,050
Leah: Isn't it wild?
These are real stories where babies will come
1053
00:58:31,082 --> 00:58:38,362
out and not breathing or come out and seem to
pass away almost right away, and then the mom
1054
00:58:38,418 --> 00:58:42,170
will hold it because they want to say goodbye
or whatever, and the baby will sort of come
1055
00:58:42,202 --> 00:58:42,730
back.
1056
00:58:42,882 --> 00:58:43,574
Moshe: Right.
1057
00:58:44,154 --> 00:58:47,418
It's restoring a little bit of the familiarity
1058
00:58:47,586 --> 00:58:52,442
of the womb almost to bringing a child to
thrive.
1059
00:58:52,578 --> 00:58:59,106
And that is also why in most, at least modern,
you know, hospitals or birthing centers, they
1060
00:58:59,170 --> 00:59:01,554
take the baby out and then they put it on the
mother.
1061
00:59:01,594 --> 00:59:05,218
They establish that touch immediately, or the
father.
1062
00:59:05,266 --> 00:59:06,562
I mean, it doesn't really matter.
1063
00:59:06,738 --> 00:59:08,186
Leah: I mean, they put it on mom.
1064
00:59:08,330 --> 00:59:10,266
Moshe: Right away, mostly to facilitate life.
1065
00:59:10,330 --> 00:59:12,842
Leah: Mom, is there breastfeeding or generally
the.
1066
00:59:12,858 --> 00:59:16,442
Moshe: Baby'S coming out of mom?
If it's not, then there's something else we
1067
00:59:16,458 --> 00:59:17,814
can get into that, I guess.
1068
00:59:18,554 --> 00:59:19,698
Leah: Maybe not today.
1069
00:59:19,826 --> 00:59:20,552
Moshe: Right.
1070
00:59:20,738 --> 00:59:21,484
Leah: Um, but, yeah.
1071
00:59:21,524 --> 00:59:23,316
So generally they'll put the baby on mom, but
1072
00:59:23,340 --> 00:59:26,572
then there's this concept called the fourth
trimester.
1073
00:59:26,668 --> 00:59:27,356
Moshe: Right, right.
1074
00:59:27,420 --> 00:59:28,396
The first month of life.
1075
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:28,732
Leah: Right.
1076
00:59:28,788 --> 00:59:30,484
The first three months of life, actually,
1077
00:59:30,564 --> 00:59:33,916
where baby is supposed to be on someone
constantly because they're not actually
1078
00:59:33,980 --> 00:59:34,612
developed.
1079
00:59:34,708 --> 00:59:37,148
No, humans have to come out half baked because
1080
00:59:37,196 --> 00:59:39,972
otherwise their heads would be too big to pass
through the birth.
1081
00:59:40,028 --> 00:59:43,916
Moshe: The human brain is a phenomenal thing,
but it requires an extra three months to cook.
1082
00:59:43,980 --> 00:59:45,324
Leah: Yep. Basically, yes.
1083
00:59:45,444 --> 00:59:47,360
That's why babies floor up everywhere and just
1084
00:59:47,392 --> 00:59:50,056
to kind of look like they don't know what
they're doing, because they don't.
1085
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,760
Moshe: Because you're giving birth to
essentially an almost developed fetus and just
1086
00:59:53,792 --> 00:59:58,696
kind of hoping that it finishes rising like a
loaf of bread once it I'll trimester.
1087
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,808
Leah: And we're both big believers in that
one, at least.
1088
01:00:00,856 --> 01:00:01,644
Moshe: Oh, yes.
1089
01:00:02,624 --> 01:00:05,616
Again, back to the my love of attachment
1090
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:06,524
parenting.
1091
01:00:07,064 --> 01:00:10,208
If there's anything that definitively states
1092
01:00:10,256 --> 01:00:18,014
that having your child against your body, at
least initially, is harmful, then I have yet
1093
01:00:18,054 --> 01:00:18,598
to see it.
1094
01:00:18,646 --> 01:00:19,758
Leah: I have not seen it.
1095
01:00:19,806 --> 01:00:27,494
Moshe: And I believe that the more contact
that a newborn can have with both its parents,
1096
01:00:27,614 --> 01:00:33,638
mother and father, if they're lucky enough to
have both parents, the healthier and happier
1097
01:00:33,686 --> 01:00:34,030
they do.
1098
01:00:34,062 --> 01:00:36,902
And I know that studies have confirmed, at
1099
01:00:36,918 --> 01:00:40,742
least in most cases, that the more physical
contact the parents have that the child, the
1100
01:00:40,758 --> 01:00:41,860
stronger the bond.
1101
01:00:42,022 --> 01:00:44,752
Obviously, there's exceptions to every rule,
1102
01:00:44,888 --> 01:00:49,648
but the medical professionals and the
scientists and the developmental psychologists
1103
01:00:49,696 --> 01:00:57,640
all agree that definitely as much tuck as
possible with your newborn is necessary.
1104
01:00:57,752 --> 01:00:59,088
Leah: When I was in the home.
1105
01:00:59,176 --> 01:01:00,824
So when I wasn't out doing something else,
1106
01:01:00,864 --> 01:01:04,440
Raya lived on me for the first two to three
years of her life.
1107
01:01:04,592 --> 01:01:05,792
And she's still very.
1108
01:01:05,928 --> 01:01:07,008
Moshe: She still lives on me.
1109
01:01:07,056 --> 01:01:10,262
Leah: Yeah. Bigger than me, but she still sits
in my lap.
1110
01:01:10,358 --> 01:01:10,734
Moshe: Right.
1111
01:01:10,814 --> 01:01:14,194
So where are we?
1112
01:01:14,854 --> 01:01:17,542
Leah: That was everything that we wanted to
cover, actually.
1113
01:01:17,598 --> 01:01:18,086
About touch.
1114
01:01:18,110 --> 01:01:19,350
Unless you had something else.
1115
01:01:19,462 --> 01:01:21,710
Moshe: No, I mean, this episode was very
touching.
1116
01:01:21,862 --> 01:01:29,654
Oh, and we are happy to be back depending on
what order you're listening to.
1117
01:01:29,774 --> 01:01:32,046
I was struggling with pneumonia for a while.
1118
01:01:32,190 --> 01:01:34,502
As you can see, there's been far less coughing
1119
01:01:34,558 --> 01:01:37,960
and, you know, stuff in this episode.
1120
01:01:37,992 --> 01:01:42,600
And God willing, we will go back to a regular
1121
01:01:42,672 --> 01:01:48,264
schedule going forward of weekly updates or
more, depending on how energetic we are.
1122
01:01:48,304 --> 01:01:51,840
But we look forward to continuing our journey
with you.
1123
01:01:51,912 --> 01:01:53,164
Leah: Thanks for listening.
1124
01:01:53,624 --> 01:01:55,440
Moshe: Well, that's our show for today.
1125
01:01:55,592 --> 01:01:57,920
Now, you know one autistic just a little bit
1126
01:01:57,952 --> 01:01:58,524
better.
1127
01:01:58,984 --> 01:02:02,424
So something you may not know about some
1128
01:02:02,464 --> 01:02:06,884
autistics is that we often struggle with
ending social interactions.
1129
01:02:07,304 --> 01:02:08,924
So, Leah.
1130
01:02:09,744 --> 01:02:10,768
Leah: All right, Moshe.
1131
01:02:10,816 --> 01:02:12,144
I'll take care of it.
1132
01:02:12,304 --> 01:02:15,192
Thank you for listening to now you know one
autistic.
1133
01:02:15,248 --> 01:02:16,024
See you next week.