The Power of Touch in Autism

Episode Title: The Power of Touch in Autism

Episode Number: 9

Release Date: May 27, 2024

Duration: 01:12:16

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah discuss the role of physical touch in communication. They explore the concept of touch as a form of nonverbal communication, its importance in human development and relationships, and how it can be used to reduce pain and enhance joy. Moshe, who is autistic, shares his personal experiences with touch and how it differs from neurotypical individuals. The hosts also discuss the concept of haptic communication and how it can be used to improve communication with neurodivergent children.

Key Takeaways:

• Physical touch is a powerful form of nonverbal communication that can convey emotions, intentions, and trust.
• Touch is essential for human development and well-being, and touch deprivation can have negative consequences.
• Haptic communication, which involves incorporating touch into verbal communication, can be an effective way to improve communication with neurodivergent children.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The different ways that neurodivergent and neurotypical individuals experience touch.
• The importance of touch in human development and relationships.
• How haptic communication can be used to improve communication with neurodivergent children.

Quotes:

• "Touch is very specific to the kind of relationship that I would have." - Moshe
• "Touch has been scientifically proven to be necessary not just for humans, but as you said, other animals as well." - Leah
• "The human brain is a phenomenal thing, but it requires an extra three months to cook." - Moshe

Resources & Links:

• Attachment Parenting International
• The Case of Genie

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Transcript:

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Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe and I'm autistic.

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Leah: I'm Leah and I'm boring.

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Moshe: Welcome to now you know one autistic.

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Leah: A podcast about neurodiversity in
couples, marriage meltdowns, and making it all

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work.

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Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast
reflect the experience of one couple and one

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autistic.

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Leah: Nothing that you hear in this podcast
should be taken as a medical opinion.

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And unless otherwise stated, no one is an
accredited specialist in any of the many

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fields that comprise the autism spectrum.

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Moshe: But as someone who is on the autism
spectrum, I feel that my experiences will be

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very valuable to many of you.

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Whether you're on the spectrum, a support

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person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.

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Leah: If you think that you or someone you
care about may be autistic, consult your

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family doctor.

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Moshe: Hi, Leah.

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Leah: Hi, Moses.

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Moshe: How are you today?

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Leah: I'm okay.

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How are you?

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Moshe: I'm well, thanks.

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So what are we talking about today?

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Leah: I thought that we could talk about the
function of physical touch during

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communication.

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Moshe: Physical touch, it's part of our series
on communication, and it's actually an episode

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that I was kind of excited about because
physical touch, it has kind of an interesting

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connotation when it comes to neurodivergence
and autistics.

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We hear a lot about the stereotypical behavior
of neurodivergence, and one of the things that

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people talk a lot about when it comes to
hallmarks of neurodivergency is an aversion a

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lot of the time, not all the time, because,
again, one autistic aversion to physical

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touch, they don't like to be touched.

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They don't like to have their hands held.

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They don't like to be touched too tightly.

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Leah: You know what I've noticed often,
though, when a neurodivergent says they don't

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want to be touched, what they're actually
trying to say is, I wasn't prepared to be

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touched.

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You can't really surprise attack a

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neurodivergent, even you, who loves physical
touch.

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If I come up behind you and sort of touch you,
you'll sort of jump.

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Moshe: Because it all kind of comes to the
concept of an oversensitivity to stimulation.

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And touch is a stimulant of sorts.

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And if you are neurodivergent and you happen

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to have an oversensitivity to various stimuli,
then touching someone is introducing, a lot of

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the time, sudden stimulation, or even if it's
not sudden, it's a different stimulation that

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their body has to process.

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And if you're already over processing certain

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stimuli, then what you're getting is something
that would be, I guess, to some people, kind

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of painful, really.

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Leah: I can understand it because I've been so
busy and overwrought and so overstimulated

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that if somebody stops me in the middle of
what I'm doing to try to touch me or hug me,

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I've been like, ah, get off me.

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Moshe: One of the things that people often do
in an effort to scare people was they'll go up

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to them and they'll go, ah.

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And they'll touch them, and then the person

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will jump.

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For an autistic, for a lot of autistic, it's

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like that every time, even if they expect it,
that touch is like a, you know, like a

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stimulation.

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And it's very difficult to process things that

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we're not prepared for, but also that we are
prepared for, but we are not necessarily

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comfortable with.

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And I feel it almost kind of almost goes hand

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in hand with the eye contact.

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And the proximity issue is having the personal

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space, the connection that comes from being
close to someone, looking at someone, hearing

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someone, touching someone, the whole social
aspect of neurodivergency is challenged a lot

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of the time by physical touch.

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Leah: Yes. Also somebody that you don't know
well or somebody that you're not used to see,

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that's where I'm different.

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I mentioned that I can understand being

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overstimulated by touch, but for me, it's all
about the person, right?

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Essentially, anybody can touch me.

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Well, not really anymore.

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Like, I don't touch men that are not related
to me, but anybody can touch me.

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And it's the same level of either surprise or
I don't want that right now, or that's fine.

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Whereas I noticed for neurodivergence, it also
goes by person.

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Some people are allowed to touch you all the
time.

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Some people, sometimes some people with
permission.

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And some people it's like a no.

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Moshe: And of course there's going to be
different levels of comfort, different levels

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of sensitivity.

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I'm one autistic.

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So for me, physical touch is actually
something that I haven't struggled with a lot.

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I have, I guess, more of an aversion to it
than maybe a neurotypical might.

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But I have always been very huggy person.

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The problem actually has been the opposite,

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where I'm not as familiar with levels of
touch.

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So I have been accused of being very rough.

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I used to go up to my friends and just like,

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grab them and, like, squeeze them, and they
used to say, oh, he's too rough, because I

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didn't all, he doesn't know he's on strength.

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He's a big boy or whatever they used to say.

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Because for me, I actually was one of the ones
that were opposite to, I hate to use the word

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the norm, but the typical will say I was a
neurodivergent, neurotypical, whatever.

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So I would actually use touch.

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I would overuse touch.

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I would go up to just random people and just
hug them because that was how I connected with

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people.

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I like you.

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You're a good person.

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Wheeze, crunch, crack, you know, things like

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that.

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Leah: You still do that to me.

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Moshe: I still do that to you.

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And I remember, actually, not anymore, but

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when I first got to spend time with Aaron, you
had told me that you had taught him, like, do

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you want to smile?
Like a medium hug or a big hug or like

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whatever it was that you had taught him.

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Leah: I forget what I said, but it was
something like tight hug, loose hug or no hug.

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Moshe: Yeah, because you have.

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Leah: Or a high five.

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Moshe: Or high five, right.

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Because everyone has different levels of

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comfort when it comes to physical touch.

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Leah: But then, of course, he blew all my
expectations out of the water.

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And the first time he saw you, basically he
stuck his tongue in your mouth.

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So I hadn't prepared myself for that.

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Moshe: That is a different story.

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That is a combination.

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Getting a bit off topic here.

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Mirroring and expectations based on

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understanding.

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If you tell someone, give him a kiss, then

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your mind will instinctively, I mean, your
mind will at least, or the average person's

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mind will go, okay, so that is my partner.

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I'm going to kiss them like this.

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That is my friend or someone like that.

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I'm going to kiss them like that.

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That is my parent or my child.

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I'm going to kiss them like that.

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If you generalize, as a lot of neurodivergents
do, which we do have kind of black and white

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thinking in certain aspects.

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I love you, I'm going to kiss you.

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And to me, a kiss means sticking my tongue in
your mouth because that's what kiss feels like

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to me.

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But that is appropriate for certain people and

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maybe not for, you know, your parent.

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Leah: Right.

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But it was actually exclusive to you.

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Moshe: Yes. I don't know that we've ever
actually discussed why we thought that was.

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Leah: I have no idea.

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Moshe: And I was more surprised than anything.

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And it became kind of a hallmark of our

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relationship.

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We're like, can I give you a kiss goodnight?

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Blah.

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You know, and then eventually you were like,

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alvar.

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Okay, all right.

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Okay, okay, okay.

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How about, how about.

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All right, how about when we kiss?
We just do.

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We don't.

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We don't.

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That's the kiss that you.

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You say for.

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Leah: Maybe you saw me kissing you like that.

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Maybe that's why.

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Anyway.

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Moshe: But that is an example of physical
touch.

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And on the other side of that, a lot of
neurodivergence.

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Do you have a problem with the physical touch
from, like, holding hands to hugging to

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kissing to physical intimacy?

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Leah: Touch, most, like everything else we
talk about, is way more complicated than it

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seems on the surface.

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Because for this topic, we can both discuss

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why touch is important to people of all types.

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Right.

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Neurodivergent, neurotypical children, grown
ups.

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But also we can discuss, well, how important
touches in our relationship.

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Moshe: Right.

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Leah: And why it's important because as you've
already sort of teased to people, you're

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different in that way.

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Moshe: Oh, yeah.

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Leah: You actually crave physical touch more
than a lot of neurotypical people that I know.

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Moshe: For me, physical touch is very unique
because for me, it's a trust thing.

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Touch is very specific to the kind of
relationship that I would have.

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If you are an acquaintance or someone that I
don't know very well, or even a friend, I

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don't really feel comfortable touching you,
even to the point of shaking your hand.

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But if I'm someone that is quite close to you,
say you are a really close friend or a child

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or you or a parent, I guess, then physical
touch is not only desired, but necessary.

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And the absence of it is actually, like, a
deficiency that I feel very strongly.

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And it's sort of a reversal of the concept of
overstimulation.

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I feel overstimulated by the absence of
certain people's touches in the same way that

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certain neurodivergence would feel that way
about that person's touches.

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Leah: Yes, I remember something that happened,
and it was completely counterintuitive.

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And then, of course, it was a talk and we had
to work it out, but we were having a

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knockdown, drag out fight about something.

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The topic of the fight, I don't remember, but

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I was so angry, and I was standing across the
room from you, and you just sort of.

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I was screaming, and you were sort of, I don't
know, raising your voice.

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And you were like, how come you don't love me
anymore?

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And I was like, of course I love you.

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I'm just angry at you right now.

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And you were like, then how come you're not
right here?

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And you open your arms and you sort of pounded
your chest?

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You're like, I don't care.

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If you're mad at me, you need to be right here

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at all times.

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And I went, whoa.

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I'm too angry for that kind of contact right
now.

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Moshe: Right?
Because the connection that comes from

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physical touch, for me specifically, is
relative to the kind of relationship that we

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have.

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And a desire, even a temporary desire, to not

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have physical touch with someone that you
have.

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The kind of connection that I expect is akin
to a downgrade of your entire relationship.

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I love you.

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And therefore, right now, we are together.

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We are a couple.

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You are husband and wife.

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We are girlfriend and boyfriend.

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But for that period of time where I don't

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really feel like touching you, it's like we've
broken up, and I feel the love as though we

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had just broken up, even if it's temporary.

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Leah: And then when we were calm, that had to
be a discussion, because I was like, I was far

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too mad for that kind of contact.

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And you wanted full on, like, snuggles, and we

220
00:12:42,538 --> 00:12:43,602
would have still been fighting.

221
00:12:43,658 --> 00:12:45,234
But for you, that would have been fine.

222
00:12:45,274 --> 00:12:46,434
And for me, that wasn't fine.

223
00:12:46,474 --> 00:12:48,898
So we talked about that, and eventually you

224
00:12:48,906 --> 00:12:50,938
were like, okay, you know, consent, I
understand.

225
00:12:51,026 --> 00:12:53,706
No touching when you're that angry.

226
00:12:53,890 --> 00:12:57,882
But I still always remembered that because it

227
00:12:57,898 --> 00:13:04,538
was sweet and sad and a very interesting
window into who you are as a person and a

228
00:13:04,546 --> 00:13:05,854
neurodivergent person.

229
00:13:07,734 --> 00:13:08,954
Moshe: It'S interesting.

230
00:13:09,694 --> 00:13:12,590
And once you know that sort of thing, because

231
00:13:12,662 --> 00:13:16,238
everyone has a different relationship with
touch.

232
00:13:16,406 --> 00:13:19,238
My relationship with touch is actually.

233
00:13:19,366 --> 00:13:22,142
It's a much higher priority for me than some

234
00:13:22,158 --> 00:13:23,606
of my other senses.

235
00:13:23,790 --> 00:13:26,958
My hearing has always been a little bit less

236
00:13:27,006 --> 00:13:29,550
sensitive in certain ways.

237
00:13:29,622 --> 00:13:31,794
In some ways, it's more sensitive.

238
00:13:32,424 --> 00:13:34,684
My sense of smell is quite sensitive.

239
00:13:35,784 --> 00:13:38,008
Leah: Less since COVID though, unfortunately.

240
00:13:38,056 --> 00:13:39,524
Moshe: But that's a different topic.

241
00:13:39,984 --> 00:13:43,520
My vision has always been terrible, so I've

242
00:13:43,552 --> 00:13:45,272
never really relied too much on that.

243
00:13:45,368 --> 00:13:48,872
Leah: It's the most beautiful eyes I've ever
seen that don't work at all.

244
00:13:48,968 --> 00:13:58,072
Moshe: But my sense of touch is so important
for me that I would sooner be able to touch

245
00:13:58,128 --> 00:14:04,574
someone, even if I was, I mean,
hypothetically, never allowed to hear them or

246
00:14:04,614 --> 00:14:05,554
see them again.

247
00:14:06,174 --> 00:14:11,314
To feel the touch of their hand or other

248
00:14:12,014 --> 00:14:21,270
aspects of them would be more desirable for me
than to not be able to touch them, but be able

249
00:14:21,302 --> 00:14:25,058
to see them or hear them or smell them.

250
00:14:25,206 --> 00:14:31,002
Leah: I can understand that because especially
with you and the children, touch is probably

251
00:14:31,058 --> 00:14:33,930
also the most important aspect for me.

252
00:14:34,082 --> 00:14:35,694
Moshe: And it models.

253
00:14:37,034 --> 00:14:38,974
I'll just let the ambulance.

254
00:14:45,754 --> 00:14:56,324
It models every aspect of my personal life
from an early age to the present.

255
00:14:56,624 --> 00:15:05,472
Whenever I was upset by something, I would
seek out ta.

256
00:15:05,648 --> 00:15:12,724
I would hold a pillow, I would smuggle a
stuffed animal, or I would go up to a relative

257
00:15:13,144 --> 00:15:14,080
and I would hug them.

258
00:15:14,112 --> 00:15:16,344
If I really, really liked you, I would hug

259
00:15:16,384 --> 00:15:16,964
you.

260
00:15:18,604 --> 00:15:26,732
When I was blessed to have a child, the

261
00:15:26,828 --> 00:15:33,380
absence of their presence was painful to me.

262
00:15:33,452 --> 00:15:38,820
Leah: Yes. Agram now is growing up and he's, I
guess if you want to say you're more

263
00:15:38,852 --> 00:15:40,740
stereotypical neurodivergent that way.

264
00:15:40,772 --> 00:15:42,996
He's a bit like, you know, Sheldon Cooper from

265
00:15:43,020 --> 00:15:43,904
Big Bang.

266
00:15:44,254 --> 00:15:46,830
He likes touch kind of sometimes, sort of, but

267
00:15:46,862 --> 00:15:47,634
not really.

268
00:15:48,774 --> 00:15:51,566
And in terms of bonding, he's very much the

269
00:15:51,590 --> 00:15:51,822
same.

270
00:15:51,878 --> 00:15:55,462
So he's out all the time and he doesn't spend

271
00:15:55,518 --> 00:15:56,966
as much time with us as he used to.

272
00:15:56,990 --> 00:15:59,142
And he definitely doesn't touch you as much as

273
00:15:59,158 --> 00:16:02,474
he used to, and you're upset about it a lot.

274
00:16:05,454 --> 00:16:10,886
Moshe: I would even put myself on record as
saying I'm disproportionately upset about it

275
00:16:11,070 --> 00:16:15,910
because, and again, it's the same story.

276
00:16:16,102 --> 00:16:20,918
I would rather feel him than see him or spend

277
00:16:20,966 --> 00:16:22,030
time with him.

278
00:16:22,222 --> 00:16:25,182
And when I'm upset at him, I don't actually

279
00:16:25,278 --> 00:16:29,718
want to touch him because for me, it's a
connection issue.

280
00:16:29,886 --> 00:16:31,454
You've disappointed me right now.

281
00:16:31,494 --> 00:16:32,550
You've upset me.

282
00:16:32,662 --> 00:16:37,994
I'm not comfortable touching you right now
because it's a downgrade in our relationship.

283
00:16:38,134 --> 00:16:38,474
It's.

284
00:16:38,514 --> 00:16:40,514
You have taken your physical presence away

285
00:16:40,554 --> 00:16:45,778
from me, so now I have to take my physical
presence away from you.

286
00:16:45,946 --> 00:16:48,474
Unfortunately, it is not reciprocal.

287
00:16:48,514 --> 00:16:49,330
He doesn't care.

288
00:16:49,442 --> 00:16:49,946
Leah: He is.

289
00:16:50,010 --> 00:16:50,650
Yes, he is.

290
00:16:50,682 --> 00:16:51,530
Not that way.

291
00:16:51,642 --> 00:16:53,226
I don't know that he doesn't care, but he's

292
00:16:53,250 --> 00:16:54,170
not that way.

293
00:16:54,322 --> 00:17:05,290
Moshe: Because for me, it was actually really
sad because the way to, I guess, punish me for

294
00:17:05,322 --> 00:17:07,474
me would be to withdraw, like, touch.

295
00:17:07,634 --> 00:17:09,786
If you don't, like, do what I say, I'm not

296
00:17:09,810 --> 00:17:15,522
going to hug you would be far more effective
than putting me in a timeout or sticking me in

297
00:17:15,538 --> 00:17:23,146
a corner, because to see someone and not be
able to touch them was harsher for me than to

298
00:17:23,170 --> 00:17:25,014
touch them but not be able to see them.

299
00:17:26,474 --> 00:17:28,094
And it is.

300
00:17:28,954 --> 00:17:31,294
It's always been like when I was a parent.

301
00:17:32,884 --> 00:17:35,224
I'm a big believer in attachment parenting.

302
00:17:36,124 --> 00:17:38,148
It's definitely a proven science.

303
00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:40,756
And a lot of people do believe very strongly

304
00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:45,652
in having a relationship with their new baby,
where the child is essentially with them at

305
00:17:45,668 --> 00:17:46,116
all times.

306
00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:49,584
Leah: But it's also very interesting because
it's honestly, usually the mom.

307
00:17:50,044 --> 00:17:51,796
Usually the mom wears the baby.

308
00:17:51,860 --> 00:17:53,588
Usually the mom carries the baby around

309
00:17:53,636 --> 00:17:54,292
everywhere.

310
00:17:54,428 --> 00:17:56,260
And I guess it's a practical thing too,

311
00:17:56,292 --> 00:18:01,270
because if you're breastfeeding right there,
right there, it's definitely usually the dad.

312
00:18:01,422 --> 00:18:04,526
Moshe: Because you, you know, the mother,
depending on where you live in the world, you

313
00:18:04,550 --> 00:18:07,078
have the baby, you may or may not have time
off.

314
00:18:07,246 --> 00:18:11,194
You don't really have the ability until
they're a little bit older to put them down.

315
00:18:12,054 --> 00:18:17,398
So you kind of wrap them up in you or you
stick them in a. In a snugly or something, and

316
00:18:17,406 --> 00:18:18,794
then you go about your day.

317
00:18:19,334 --> 00:18:27,624
But for me, it was, I would see this, this

318
00:18:28,564 --> 00:18:35,556
baby, and the first thing that I would want to
do is just hold it against me, because for me,

319
00:18:35,580 --> 00:18:40,784
the ultimate sign of love is to hold someone
against me is to hug them.

320
00:18:41,084 --> 00:18:46,584
And a handshake is kind of like a mini hug.

321
00:18:47,084 --> 00:18:50,372
So these people that would, like, go over to

322
00:18:50,388 --> 00:18:51,882
you, it's nice to meet you.

323
00:18:52,028 --> 00:18:54,094
And my response would be, yes, it's really

324
00:18:54,134 --> 00:18:58,154
nice to meet you, but I don't really know you
enough to hug you right now.

325
00:18:58,454 --> 00:19:01,954
Maybe once I have a good relationship with
you, I will hug you.

326
00:19:02,374 --> 00:19:08,582
And it made it very awkward, because in
western society, a handshake is seen as a

327
00:19:08,598 --> 00:19:09,406
symbol of trust.

328
00:19:09,510 --> 00:19:10,094
Leah: That's the thing.

329
00:19:10,134 --> 00:19:11,590
Covid fixed a lot, though.

330
00:19:11,702 --> 00:19:13,142
Moshe: Yeah, the COVID was a coincidence.

331
00:19:13,198 --> 00:19:16,526
Leah: Covid reminded all of us how intimate
handshakes are.

332
00:19:16,670 --> 00:19:23,252
Moshe: Yes. And especially for me, as an
orthodox jew, the idea of shoma Nagia and I

333
00:19:23,268 --> 00:19:28,388
would often have been interviewed by women,
and they'd be fine.

334
00:19:28,436 --> 00:19:34,020
I mean, there was no, there's nothing untoward
happening, but they would be, it's really nice

335
00:19:34,052 --> 00:19:35,956
to meet you, mister, you know, Appel.

336
00:19:36,060 --> 00:19:38,292
And they would put their hand out, and I would

337
00:19:38,308 --> 00:19:42,384
say, I'm sorry, I don't shake hands.

338
00:19:42,684 --> 00:19:44,460
And before COVID that would have been like,

339
00:19:44,492 --> 00:19:46,460
ooh, I wonder what's up with him now.

340
00:19:46,492 --> 00:19:48,904
It's like, I get it, I get it, I get it.

341
00:19:49,564 --> 00:19:51,236
And it's taken a little bit better.

342
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,420
And I'm thinking to myself, I don't know that

343
00:19:53,452 --> 00:19:58,300
you do, but, you know, pleasant coincidence, I
guess.

344
00:19:58,372 --> 00:19:59,024
Leah: Yeah.

345
00:19:59,564 --> 00:20:04,036
Moshe: But Tux is definitely a very intimate
thing for me.

346
00:20:04,220 --> 00:20:08,372
And it's the end of every argument that Leah
and I have that is true.

347
00:20:08,428 --> 00:20:11,044
The argument is not over until she has hugged
me.

348
00:20:11,084 --> 00:20:12,744
That's how I know it's been resolved.

349
00:20:13,484 --> 00:20:17,790
And because that's something that she trained

350
00:20:17,822 --> 00:20:18,554
me in.

351
00:20:19,734 --> 00:20:23,914
I really tried hard to maintain physical touch

352
00:20:24,854 --> 00:20:28,822
throughout the ups and downs of our
relationship, but obviously, she's a different

353
00:20:28,878 --> 00:20:31,254
person, and she doesn't feel the same way I
do.

354
00:20:31,414 --> 00:20:34,518
So now my perspective is okay.

355
00:20:34,686 --> 00:20:38,526
So I don't fully know that things are resolved

356
00:20:38,590 --> 00:20:40,744
until she is willing to touch me.

357
00:20:40,854 --> 00:20:44,844
Leah: I've adjusted my way with that as well
because what we're actually trying to talk

358
00:20:44,884 --> 00:20:52,184
about here is the function of physical touch
during communication, including arguments.

359
00:20:52,484 --> 00:20:59,284
And I have actually moderated myself because I
used to not want to touch or v near anyone

360
00:20:59,324 --> 00:21:00,644
that I was angry at.

361
00:21:00,804 --> 00:21:03,124
And now I might not hug and kiss you.

362
00:21:03,164 --> 00:21:05,700
So absolutely, you know that that's when it's
over.

363
00:21:05,812 --> 00:21:11,594
But I will take your hand or put my hand on
you because sometimes if I don't, you're not

364
00:21:11,634 --> 00:21:12,866
listening as well.

365
00:21:13,050 --> 00:21:17,138
Moshe: And that's something else that we
should discuss, the concept of physical touch

366
00:21:17,266 --> 00:21:21,458
when it comes to neurodivergence, when it
comes to focusing.

367
00:21:21,506 --> 00:21:25,850
Leah: So I had to train myself to be rip
roaring mad at you and still be able to put my

368
00:21:25,882 --> 00:21:26,450
hand on you.

369
00:21:26,482 --> 00:21:29,394
That was, you know, I guess, sort of a change

370
00:21:29,434 --> 00:21:30,654
that I made for you.

371
00:21:31,074 --> 00:21:35,538
Moshe: And just to answer any question that
someone might have, if you see touch as so

372
00:21:35,586 --> 00:21:42,382
important to you, then how do you know that
things are still, you know, problematic?

373
00:21:42,438 --> 00:21:43,782
I guess if.

374
00:21:43,838 --> 00:21:45,998
If you are willing to touch me to a certain

375
00:21:46,046 --> 00:21:47,302
extent, the answer is.

376
00:21:47,318 --> 00:21:49,110
Leah: I know I won't be kissing you.

377
00:21:49,182 --> 00:21:51,342
Like usually the intimate stuff.

378
00:21:51,398 --> 00:21:51,662
Kiss.

379
00:21:51,718 --> 00:21:52,446
Moshe: Oh, I know.

380
00:21:52,590 --> 00:21:54,406
I can feel through your touch that there's

381
00:21:54,430 --> 00:21:55,486
still something going on.

382
00:21:55,550 --> 00:21:57,486
Yeah, like, I'm touching you, but we're still

383
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:59,874
dealing with it, which is great.

384
00:22:01,054 --> 00:22:02,622
Leah: It's better than I used to do.

385
00:22:02,718 --> 00:22:03,848
Moshe: It's a lot better.

386
00:22:03,896 --> 00:22:08,072
And it definitely, for me at least, makes our

387
00:22:08,208 --> 00:22:14,080
discussions and disagreements more palatable.

388
00:22:14,232 --> 00:22:16,964
Not palatable, just adult.

389
00:22:18,104 --> 00:22:19,472
It keeps me grounded.

390
00:22:19,528 --> 00:22:23,656
So I'm like, not collapsing in a sobbing neck.

391
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,744
I'm like, okay, she's touching me.

392
00:22:25,864 --> 00:22:27,720
So we're still going to be able to talk this

393
00:22:27,752 --> 00:22:28,324
through.

394
00:22:28,704 --> 00:22:31,144
And that helps a lot, I would hope, with

395
00:22:31,184 --> 00:22:32,712
resolving a lot of our disagreements.

396
00:22:32,768 --> 00:22:33,296
Leah: It does.

397
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:35,324
It helps me get through to you faster.

398
00:22:36,354 --> 00:22:40,978
Moshe: So let's move on to the next aspect of
physical touch.

399
00:22:41,146 --> 00:22:46,174
Leah: Well, the first thing I actually wanted
to talk about is an interesting concept.

400
00:22:46,754 --> 00:22:52,266
You know how when you see a movie where you
know a man really loves his dog or a movie

401
00:22:52,330 --> 00:22:55,962
where people fall in love and you get to watch
it, you describe it as touching.

402
00:22:56,098 --> 00:22:58,654
No, nobody's actually touching you.

403
00:22:59,394 --> 00:23:01,654
But why do you think that that's a thing?

404
00:23:04,104 --> 00:23:11,728
Moshe: I've always interpreted that saying to
mean that it's touching your heart.

405
00:23:11,896 --> 00:23:15,256
It makes you feel like something heat, like in
your chest.

406
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:19,384
You can't see what I'm touching myself, but
you're touching your heart, like your chest.

407
00:23:19,424 --> 00:23:21,904
It's like, oh, I can feel that emotion.

408
00:23:22,064 --> 00:23:25,640
It's touching that emotion, that connection

409
00:23:25,832 --> 00:23:27,004
that they have.

410
00:23:28,284 --> 00:23:32,412
It's like I can feel the connection inside

411
00:23:32,468 --> 00:23:32,852
myself.

412
00:23:32,908 --> 00:23:33,996
It's touching me.

413
00:23:34,100 --> 00:23:34,340
Leah: Right.

414
00:23:34,372 --> 00:23:36,524
And that's so interesting because for me, that

415
00:23:36,564 --> 00:23:42,292
brings up the whole concept of brain body
emotional connection, because when you're

416
00:23:42,348 --> 00:23:45,344
really upset, you can actually feel physical
pain.

417
00:23:45,684 --> 00:23:49,756
But when you see something really sweet and
loving, you can actually feel physical

418
00:23:49,820 --> 00:23:50,228
pleasure.

419
00:23:50,276 --> 00:23:52,476
Like somebody that you love is touching you.

420
00:23:52,620 --> 00:23:56,294
Moshe: Yeah. The mark of a good actor.

421
00:23:56,954 --> 00:24:00,254
When you're talking about movies or tv shows

422
00:24:01,474 --> 00:24:08,082
or even taking it a step further, even going
to listening to particular songs, where you're

423
00:24:08,098 --> 00:24:13,618
listening to a song and you're like, wow, I
can feel the emotion in his words, or I can

424
00:24:13,666 --> 00:24:15,974
feel the heartbreak that she's singing about.

425
00:24:17,554 --> 00:24:19,706
And she may just be very good at emoting, but

426
00:24:19,770 --> 00:24:26,954
also it's how we make that connection when
we're watching a tv show or watching a movie

427
00:24:27,114 --> 00:24:32,698
or we're seeing a play or something and we're
just going, wow.

428
00:24:32,826 --> 00:24:36,466
You can see it in her eyes and their body
language.

429
00:24:36,650 --> 00:24:44,922
You can see how he's touching her, or you can
see how I can feel what's happening between

430
00:24:44,978 --> 00:24:45,934
them or something.

431
00:24:46,254 --> 00:24:46,654
It's.

432
00:24:46,694 --> 00:24:48,006
It becomes.

433
00:24:48,190 --> 00:24:51,558
It becomes that connection that they're

434
00:24:51,606 --> 00:24:57,622
making, that, in turn, you are receiving from
them in addition to whatever's going on in

435
00:24:57,638 --> 00:24:58,454
front of you.

436
00:24:58,614 --> 00:24:58,982
Leah: Right.

437
00:24:59,038 --> 00:25:00,862
So that's why when you watch a funny movie,

438
00:25:00,918 --> 00:25:04,114
even if the person's not there with you,
telling you a joke, you laugh.

439
00:25:04,974 --> 00:25:06,918
That's why people like romance movies.

440
00:25:06,966 --> 00:25:08,622
It makes them feel, you know, warm, like

441
00:25:08,638 --> 00:25:10,734
they're being hugged or sweet.

442
00:25:10,774 --> 00:25:12,546
That's why scary movies are scary.

443
00:25:12,670 --> 00:25:19,346
Yeah, because we have a really, really strong
mind body connection as human beings that we

444
00:25:19,370 --> 00:25:21,250
don't pay enough attention to.

445
00:25:21,402 --> 00:25:28,082
Moshe: There are certain conditions or mental
illnesses that are actually characterized by a

446
00:25:28,138 --> 00:25:31,482
disconnect between feeling someone else's
emotions.

447
00:25:31,578 --> 00:25:34,826
It's like a pathological lack of empathy.

448
00:25:34,970 --> 00:25:38,026
I see that those people are hugging, but I

449
00:25:38,050 --> 00:25:41,660
don't feel the kind of connection that they
have.

450
00:25:41,852 --> 00:25:47,196
Or I see that those people are laughing, but I
don't understand their humor.

451
00:25:47,260 --> 00:25:50,964
Leah: And more people like that exist than you
think.

452
00:25:51,124 --> 00:25:53,956
Because a lot of people are thinking, well,
yeah, of course, they're serial killers or

453
00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:54,388
murderers.

454
00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:57,620
No, they can just be regular people and they

455
00:25:57,652 --> 00:25:59,944
go through life feeling that way.

456
00:26:01,084 --> 00:26:05,550
Moshe: And a lot of people often stereotype
autistics like that.

457
00:26:05,692 --> 00:26:15,226
This deadpan lack of emotion where you'll see
this crowd of people standing around talking

458
00:26:15,330 --> 00:26:17,674
and laughing and joking and ahahaha.

459
00:26:17,714 --> 00:26:18,418
Whatever.

460
00:26:18,586 --> 00:26:22,906
And then this one neurodivergent will stand
there and go, I don't get it.

461
00:26:23,090 --> 00:26:28,138
Leah: You've very sadly been accused before by
one of my friends who didn't know you very

462
00:26:28,186 --> 00:26:32,602
well, that she actually said she wanted to see
in the trunk of your car to make sure you

463
00:26:32,618 --> 00:26:33,762
weren't going to murder me.

464
00:26:33,858 --> 00:26:34,534
Moshe: Correct.

465
00:26:35,634 --> 00:26:43,722
And that is, unfortunately, it is a burden

466
00:26:43,778 --> 00:26:46,770
that a lot of neurodivergents have.

467
00:26:46,922 --> 00:26:50,794
And that is, as I describe it, the ability to

468
00:26:50,834 --> 00:26:57,946
convert your internal emotions to your
external expressions.

469
00:26:58,050 --> 00:27:04,176
Leah: And it wasn't funny, but I couldn't
really help but laugh at her because anybody

470
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:09,336
who knows Moshe and I, well, even a little
bit, would know that I'm far more likely to

471
00:27:09,360 --> 00:27:10,112
murder him.

472
00:27:10,248 --> 00:27:18,244
Moshe: Oh, I know you don't have a car or a
license, but man, if I. If I made you upset

473
00:27:18,984 --> 00:27:21,976
like the desert, it's not far.

474
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,296
It's a, it's not far, and it's a big place.

475
00:27:24,360 --> 00:27:26,786
It's a great place to, you know, hide a body.

476
00:27:26,850 --> 00:27:29,250
Leah: So, for the record, I'm not murdering
Marcia.

477
00:27:29,282 --> 00:27:33,546
But it's just, if you knew our personalities
and knew us personally, even a little bit, you

478
00:27:33,570 --> 00:27:35,538
would see how ridiculous that is.

479
00:27:35,706 --> 00:27:41,298
Moshe: But for me, actually, on the topic of
that sort of thing, it was a journey.

480
00:27:41,426 --> 00:27:48,586
Because things that are often understood, not
automatic by any stretch, because if you can,

481
00:27:48,690 --> 00:27:56,484
if you can accept that something like humor is
not innate to anyone, really.

482
00:27:57,144 --> 00:28:01,008
No one comes out of the womb knowing what
makes a good joke.

483
00:28:01,096 --> 00:28:02,744
Leah: Kind of seems like you did, though.

484
00:28:02,864 --> 00:28:07,404
Moshe: Yes, I had a unique talent for humor,
but it was learned.

485
00:28:07,864 --> 00:28:14,096
But when I was very young, even up to just a
few years ago, I didn't understand what

486
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:15,324
sarcasm was.

487
00:28:16,064 --> 00:28:19,704
I didn't understand what irony was.

488
00:28:20,204 --> 00:28:27,132
I didn't understand why certain things were
funny, and I didn't understand why certain

489
00:28:27,188 --> 00:28:28,624
things were not funny.

490
00:28:29,444 --> 00:28:33,596
Auburn is sometimes accused of trying to be

491
00:28:33,620 --> 00:28:37,220
funny, but actually coming across as
insensitive or hurtful.

492
00:28:37,332 --> 00:28:38,684
But it's funny to him.

493
00:28:38,844 --> 00:28:39,316
Leah: Exactly.

494
00:28:39,340 --> 00:28:43,904
Moshe: And that's translating your humor to
that other person.

495
00:28:45,684 --> 00:29:04,304
There was a lot of, there was a lot of jokes
made of trying to teach humor or comedy to

496
00:29:05,684 --> 00:29:06,624
robots.

497
00:29:07,324 --> 00:29:11,332
People will act with understandably disastrous

498
00:29:11,388 --> 00:29:11,984
results.

499
00:29:13,604 --> 00:29:16,644
And it's about understanding what's

500
00:29:16,684 --> 00:29:22,492
appropriate and what's not appropriate and
finding the happy medium between inappropriate

501
00:29:22,668 --> 00:29:23,984
but still funny.

502
00:29:24,404 --> 00:29:30,104
Or, you know, we like ironic but still funny.

503
00:29:31,084 --> 00:29:41,504
And that is a complex understanding that is
very much related to why certain touches are

504
00:29:41,544 --> 00:29:44,568
acceptable and certain touches are not
acceptable.

505
00:29:44,696 --> 00:29:49,624
And if I love my Abba so much, then why can't
I stick my tongue in his mouth?

506
00:29:49,704 --> 00:29:50,416
Leah: Understood.

507
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,524
I get that.

508
00:29:51,984 --> 00:29:57,800
So just to sort of close the circle on the why
things are considered touching topic, it

509
00:29:57,832 --> 00:30:04,260
really does have to do with the fact that the
mind can calm the body, but it can work in

510
00:30:04,292 --> 00:30:04,756
reverse.

511
00:30:04,820 --> 00:30:07,452
If you're having any kind of communication

512
00:30:07,508 --> 00:30:12,924
with somebody and you touch them and it makes
them feel good, the body can also calm the

513
00:30:12,964 --> 00:30:13,596
mind.

514
00:30:13,780 --> 00:30:14,540
Moshe: True enough.

515
00:30:14,652 --> 00:30:20,708
Leah: And that's why, you know, touch is
important in terms of something being

516
00:30:20,756 --> 00:30:21,132
touching.

517
00:30:21,188 --> 00:30:22,692
Does it touch your mind or your emotions

518
00:30:22,748 --> 00:30:26,476
first, or your body?
And it's all sort of reversible and all very

519
00:30:26,540 --> 00:30:31,674
important to human development, human well
being and communication.

520
00:30:32,294 --> 00:30:32,774
Moshe: Right.

521
00:30:32,854 --> 00:30:37,822
Leah: So that segues me into the idea that
touch will often complete an emotional

522
00:30:37,878 --> 00:30:38,474
experience.

523
00:30:39,054 --> 00:30:41,070
So what am I talking about with that?

524
00:30:41,262 --> 00:30:45,910
If you've ever had one of your friends, you've
probably even experienced this with me, where

525
00:30:45,942 --> 00:30:50,678
they're sitting there and they just look
really upset and on the verge of tears.

526
00:30:50,846 --> 00:30:52,798
And you go up to them and you go, what's
wrong?

527
00:30:52,886 --> 00:30:57,848
And the second you put their hand on them is
when the dam breaks and they burst into tears.

528
00:30:58,016 --> 00:31:03,712
They needed your help to get all the way
through that emotion because they couldn't do

529
00:31:03,728 --> 00:31:04,328
it themselves.

530
00:31:04,416 --> 00:31:05,792
So your touch would.

531
00:31:05,888 --> 00:31:09,284
Would just complete that emotion for them.

532
00:31:09,784 --> 00:31:16,224
Moshe: It's an interesting concept, and as an
under divergent, my question would be, why?

533
00:31:16,304 --> 00:31:20,448
Why does touch create that emotional
experience for them?

534
00:31:20,616 --> 00:31:23,992
Leah: For me, I can tell you it's almost like
completing a circuit.

535
00:31:24,168 --> 00:31:28,864
Remember in science when you had to study
electricity and, you know, if one of the

536
00:31:28,904 --> 00:31:32,656
batteries are missing, then the machine
doesn't turn on for me.

537
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:38,712
Sometimes I can't complete my emotional
experience without touch from somebody that I

538
00:31:38,728 --> 00:31:40,888
love and care about, who I know cares about
me.

539
00:31:40,936 --> 00:31:43,564
It's like putting a battery into a toy.

540
00:31:44,744 --> 00:31:50,240
Moshe: My interpretation of that is actually
related to my interpretation of touch in

541
00:31:50,272 --> 00:31:50,926
general.

542
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,202
And it's very much the same as you described

543
00:31:54,298 --> 00:31:55,770
completing a circuit.

544
00:31:55,962 --> 00:31:59,786
It's kind of like when you are feeling an

545
00:31:59,810 --> 00:32:08,026
emotion, regardless of whether it's a positive
emotion or a negative emotion, you are feeling

546
00:32:08,090 --> 00:32:16,238
that emotion inside yourself, inside your
bubble, inside your zone.

547
00:32:16,426 --> 00:32:23,806
But when you touch somebody, it's like you're
entering their zone and suddenly they can feel

548
00:32:23,870 --> 00:32:25,590
that emotion with you.

549
00:32:25,662 --> 00:32:26,382
Leah: Absolutely.

550
00:32:26,438 --> 00:32:28,238
I used a negative emotion as the first

551
00:32:28,286 --> 00:32:33,462
example, but I can think of another where, you
know, it's a holiday and you're already really

552
00:32:33,518 --> 00:32:33,958
joyful.

553
00:32:34,006 --> 00:32:36,694
But when, you know, a man comes up to you and

554
00:32:36,814 --> 00:32:41,990
grabs your hand and has you dance, you're even
more joyful because you're feeling the joy

555
00:32:42,022 --> 00:32:43,546
together, right?

556
00:32:43,610 --> 00:32:51,394
Moshe: Or for example, to use a more localized
example, if someone, by the way, if someone

557
00:32:51,434 --> 00:32:53,890
wants to do this, they're absolutely welcome
to.

558
00:32:54,002 --> 00:32:59,730
But if someone were to come into our apartment
and go, I'm going to hand you like, a million

559
00:32:59,802 --> 00:33:06,570
dollars right now, or a million shekels right
now, my first instinct would be like, grab

560
00:33:06,602 --> 00:33:07,354
Leah's hand.

561
00:33:07,474 --> 00:33:08,570
Did you hear that?

562
00:33:08,682 --> 00:33:09,162
Leah: Yeah.

563
00:33:09,258 --> 00:33:13,650
Moshe: Because what you're doing is you're
saying you're immediately forming that

564
00:33:13,682 --> 00:33:16,762
connection, experiencing it together, and
you're going, this is amazing news.

565
00:33:16,818 --> 00:33:18,386
Let's experience it together.

566
00:33:18,570 --> 00:33:20,802
On a very basic level, it's like I have a very

567
00:33:20,858 --> 00:33:23,854
strong emotion and I want us both to share it.

568
00:33:24,594 --> 00:33:27,450
Or when someone is very upset and you take

569
00:33:27,482 --> 00:33:29,698
their hand, you go, I see that you're very
sad.

570
00:33:29,786 --> 00:33:31,850
Let me share your pain with you.

571
00:33:32,002 --> 00:33:35,678
And that is, to me at least, why that whole

572
00:33:35,766 --> 00:33:39,782
emotional outburst happens when you touch
someone.

573
00:33:39,838 --> 00:33:45,374
Because you're saying, I see you're
experiencing something, I'm now going to touch

574
00:33:45,414 --> 00:33:45,994
you.

575
00:33:46,294 --> 00:33:48,034
Let's experience it together.

576
00:33:48,374 --> 00:33:55,014
Or at the very least, I am now with you,
helping you to experience whatever you're

577
00:33:55,054 --> 00:33:55,914
going through.

578
00:33:56,254 --> 00:33:59,682
It's very much a physical manifestation.

579
00:33:59,838 --> 00:34:03,530
There's a big word of the concept of empathy.

580
00:34:03,682 --> 00:34:05,226
You are feeling a thing.

581
00:34:05,370 --> 00:34:06,674
I'm touching you now.

582
00:34:06,794 --> 00:34:09,954
So in at least a small way, I'm also feeling

583
00:34:09,994 --> 00:34:10,770
that thing.

584
00:34:10,922 --> 00:34:14,614
And that is why touch is such an emotional

585
00:34:15,074 --> 00:34:16,970
experience for certain people.

586
00:34:17,162 --> 00:34:20,546
And also, I guess, the reverse, where if

587
00:34:20,570 --> 00:34:26,566
you're feeling a certain way and someone goes
to touch you and go, don't touch me, I guess

588
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:32,334
that can be related to in the sense of I am
feeling such a strong emotion.

589
00:34:32,494 --> 00:34:35,022
I'm trying now to protect you from it.

590
00:34:35,078 --> 00:34:37,670
Yeah, because I am just feeling so much right

591
00:34:37,702 --> 00:34:48,158
now that I don't want you to have to
experience this and that.

592
00:34:48,246 --> 00:34:53,020
I mean, I'm sure there's lots of other reasons
why people would reject touch it at moments of

593
00:34:53,052 --> 00:34:53,784
crisis.

594
00:34:56,844 --> 00:35:00,332
And also, at least for my part, sometimes when

595
00:35:00,348 --> 00:35:09,420
you're experiencing a very strong emotion, you
are feeling really overwhelmed by whatever.

596
00:35:09,572 --> 00:35:12,820
Normally it's negative emotion, because why
would you want to protect people from happy

597
00:35:12,852 --> 00:35:17,588
things?
And by trying to isolate yourself and distance

598
00:35:17,636 --> 00:35:26,814
yourself and stay away from people, it allows
you to sort of, in a sense, explode without

599
00:35:27,114 --> 00:35:28,634
harming anyone else.

600
00:35:28,794 --> 00:35:34,906
Leah: Also, sometimes something so bad happens
that you really need to feel miserable for a

601
00:35:34,970 --> 00:35:39,362
while and you don't want to feel better, so
you don't want that other person to help you

602
00:35:39,378 --> 00:35:40,114
feel better, right?

603
00:35:40,194 --> 00:35:40,946
Moshe: Exactly.

604
00:35:41,050 --> 00:35:43,682
Because sometimes human touch is like a siphon

605
00:35:43,818 --> 00:35:45,386
it, like, pulls things away.

606
00:35:45,450 --> 00:35:48,798
And you're like, no, no, I need to feel this

607
00:35:48,846 --> 00:35:50,006
to its extent.

608
00:35:50,150 --> 00:35:53,550
I can't, like, I can't give you any of my.

609
00:35:53,622 --> 00:35:55,726
I can't give you anything right now.

610
00:35:55,870 --> 00:35:58,862
I need to feel this for at least a bit, and

611
00:35:58,918 --> 00:36:03,238
then I will come to you and let you take some
of it from me or feel it with me.

612
00:36:03,286 --> 00:36:03,822
Leah: Yeah.

613
00:36:03,958 --> 00:36:05,382
Moshe: And, I mean, I don't know.

614
00:36:05,558 --> 00:36:07,838
You can argue that that's not necessarily a

615
00:36:07,846 --> 00:36:08,966
very helpful thing.

616
00:36:09,070 --> 00:36:10,030
Leah: It's not healthy.

617
00:36:10,062 --> 00:36:13,134
But sometimes something is just so awful that

618
00:36:13,174 --> 00:36:16,726
you need to feel it in order to process it, or
it's never going to be processed.

619
00:36:16,790 --> 00:36:19,910
Moshe: Everyone knows their brain a little bit
better than anyone else.

620
00:36:19,982 --> 00:36:23,674
And some people process things better in
groups.

621
00:36:24,254 --> 00:36:27,034
Some people process things better
individually.

622
00:36:28,214 --> 00:36:32,638
Some people deal with things on their own
better.

623
00:36:32,726 --> 00:36:37,034
And some people deal with things by sharing it
with others.

624
00:36:38,274 --> 00:36:40,930
For my part, I actually go with the latter.

625
00:36:41,082 --> 00:36:43,530
And it goes back to that thing that I've

626
00:36:43,562 --> 00:36:49,722
mentioned a few times where sometimes
something happens to me and it's kind of like

627
00:36:49,738 --> 00:36:51,250
a bowl of cookie dough.

628
00:36:51,442 --> 00:36:53,306
And I kind of, like, bring it to Leah and go,

629
00:36:53,330 --> 00:36:56,970
what do you make of this?
And you go, I think you're trying to make

630
00:36:57,002 --> 00:36:57,458
sadness.

631
00:36:57,506 --> 00:36:58,730
And I'll go, oh, wow.

632
00:36:58,802 --> 00:36:59,834
Yeah, you're right.

633
00:36:59,954 --> 00:37:01,498
This does make me sad.

634
00:37:01,626 --> 00:37:02,274
Leah: Right?

635
00:37:02,434 --> 00:37:08,224
Moshe: Because if you were not, unfortunately,
as emotionally developed some neurodivergents

636
00:37:08,264 --> 00:37:16,432
aren't, then you can feel a thing and act out
in a way, but you don't know why it's

637
00:37:16,488 --> 00:37:16,792
negative.

638
00:37:16,848 --> 00:37:19,032
It's positive, especially if it's negative,

639
00:37:19,128 --> 00:37:24,912
and you lash out and you're yelling and
screaming and banging yourself against things

640
00:37:24,968 --> 00:37:26,240
and hitting yourself.

641
00:37:26,432 --> 00:37:29,064
You're like, okay, so this person's very

642
00:37:29,144 --> 00:37:29,964
upset.

643
00:37:30,944 --> 00:37:33,444
I want to help him, but I don't know what

644
00:37:33,754 --> 00:37:35,174
making him upset.

645
00:37:36,034 --> 00:37:38,094
Let's help him to process.

646
00:37:38,514 --> 00:37:45,242
And if someone is unfortunately, differently
verbal, then you have someone who's like,

647
00:37:45,258 --> 00:37:48,706
okay, you know what, hon?
You seem really upset right now.

648
00:37:48,770 --> 00:37:53,154
Did that thing that just happened make you
feel really bad?

649
00:37:53,234 --> 00:37:53,570
Is it.

650
00:37:53,602 --> 00:37:55,458
Is that what's making you feel really angry?

651
00:37:55,546 --> 00:37:57,106
You have to kind of be CSI.

652
00:37:57,170 --> 00:38:00,172
You have to be like, okay, so we were just in

653
00:38:00,188 --> 00:38:01,460
a really stressful situation.

654
00:38:01,532 --> 00:38:03,224
Is that what's upsetting you?

655
00:38:03,524 --> 00:38:08,804
And even the acknowledgement of that situation
makes them just calm down.

656
00:38:08,844 --> 00:38:10,372
Okay, now I get it.

657
00:38:10,508 --> 00:38:12,404
Now I know why I'm upset.

658
00:38:12,564 --> 00:38:13,404
Leah: But here's the thing.

659
00:38:13,444 --> 00:38:15,220
You describe yourself as less emotionally

660
00:38:15,252 --> 00:38:16,708
mature and not understanding.

661
00:38:16,756 --> 00:38:19,748
However, what you really are good at is

662
00:38:19,796 --> 00:38:22,716
reading signs and signals that repeat.

663
00:38:22,900 --> 00:38:25,724
So I have a thing where the reason I just

664
00:38:25,764 --> 00:38:30,136
talked about it is sometimes when I'm dealing
with something really stressful, I don't want

665
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:35,456
to feel better right at that moment, and I
won't come to anybody, but then when I'm ready

666
00:38:35,480 --> 00:38:39,560
to share it, I'll come to you and I'll just
climb into your arms or whatever, and that is

667
00:38:39,632 --> 00:38:40,272
always your kid.

668
00:38:40,288 --> 00:38:41,776
I go, oh, hon, what's wrong?

669
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,624
Like, you'll know I don't have to talk about
it.

670
00:38:45,704 --> 00:38:46,040
Moshe: Exactly.

671
00:38:46,072 --> 00:38:50,920
Leah: And that's you reading a situation
that's happened enough to know, and that's.

672
00:38:50,952 --> 00:38:56,066
Moshe: That comes with experience, because a
lot of situations are going to be different,

673
00:38:56,170 --> 00:39:02,250
and especially when it comes to touch, couples
often struggle with.

674
00:39:02,362 --> 00:39:04,970
Is now a good time to touch you?
Should I be comforting you?

675
00:39:05,002 --> 00:39:08,058
Do you want me to hug you?
Should I not touch you?

676
00:39:08,186 --> 00:39:11,018
Is this where I leave you alone?
Nope.

677
00:39:11,146 --> 00:39:12,378
You're looking that way.

678
00:39:12,506 --> 00:39:14,322
This is where you want me to go up to you and

679
00:39:14,338 --> 00:39:17,814
hug you and go, I'm so sorry this is happening
to you right now.

680
00:39:18,194 --> 00:39:20,674
Or maybe it's not the time.

681
00:39:20,754 --> 00:39:23,622
You just need to be away and process it, in

682
00:39:23,638 --> 00:39:25,014
which case I'll be here.

683
00:39:25,174 --> 00:39:27,926
But when you want something, I'm right here.

684
00:39:28,030 --> 00:39:29,926
I need you to come to me.

685
00:39:29,990 --> 00:39:30,678
Like, whatever.

686
00:39:30,806 --> 00:39:32,638
Whatever the dynamic is that works.

687
00:39:32,686 --> 00:39:37,710
Leah: Yeah. So, I mean, that's actually a good
segue into the next thing, which is that

688
00:39:37,742 --> 00:39:41,878
tucked helps us understand the other person's
intentions or emotions.

689
00:39:42,046 --> 00:39:46,118
You talked about that earlier, saying, how do
I know if Leah's still mad at me?

690
00:39:46,166 --> 00:39:48,774
I know because I can feel it under her hand.

691
00:39:48,854 --> 00:39:50,530
I can literally feel it.

692
00:39:50,662 --> 00:39:52,250
Moshe: Yeah, it's a bit new.

693
00:39:52,282 --> 00:39:53,290
Easy to say.

694
00:39:53,442 --> 00:39:59,506
But when you are as accustomed to touches as I
am a lot of the time, then there is a big

695
00:39:59,570 --> 00:40:05,898
difference between when Leah hugs me because
she's happy and when Leah hugs me because

696
00:40:06,066 --> 00:40:09,114
she's upset about something else.

697
00:40:09,274 --> 00:40:11,282
And when Leah hugs me when she's upset about

698
00:40:11,338 --> 00:40:14,490
something that I did, like, you can tell the
difference.

699
00:40:14,562 --> 00:40:18,618
And it could be something subtle, or it could
be like, she's hugging me and then, like, I

700
00:40:18,626 --> 00:40:19,698
don't know, kicking me or something.

701
00:40:19,746 --> 00:40:20,082
I don't know.

702
00:40:20,098 --> 00:40:21,134
You never gave her.

703
00:40:21,874 --> 00:40:23,654
There's always gonna be differences.

704
00:40:24,514 --> 00:40:29,574
Leah: But touch, people are gonna send the
police here to rescue you.

705
00:40:30,274 --> 00:40:40,570
Moshe: But touch helps a person to understand
your intentions, because a lot.

706
00:40:40,602 --> 00:40:46,338
I mean, and I'm not going into communication
styles now, but a lot of the communication

707
00:40:46,506 --> 00:40:55,186
that the humans employ is nonverbal, which is
where neurodivergents are generally not.

708
00:40:55,250 --> 00:40:55,854
Good.

709
00:40:56,514 --> 00:40:58,146
Verbal is clear.

710
00:40:58,290 --> 00:41:02,322
What you say is what you mean, and what you
mean is what you say generally.

711
00:41:02,458 --> 00:41:10,060
But when it comes to nonverbal, the
stereotypical example is, did I. Did that

712
00:41:10,092 --> 00:41:13,864
thing that I just said really upset you?
No, I'm fine.

713
00:41:14,324 --> 00:41:16,580
Is a lot different than that thing really
upset you.

714
00:41:16,612 --> 00:41:18,500
No, honey, I'm fine.

715
00:41:18,612 --> 00:41:24,044
Hug, hug, kiss, kiss, touch establishes a

716
00:41:24,084 --> 00:41:28,812
connection, and it establishes kind of where
you stand, and it makes the difference

717
00:41:28,868 --> 00:41:33,844
between, you did nothing wrong and I'm just
upset about something else, and you did

718
00:41:33,924 --> 00:41:35,024
something wrong.

719
00:41:35,454 --> 00:41:37,034
And I just.

720
00:41:37,334 --> 00:41:39,074
I need you to understand.

721
00:41:39,934 --> 00:41:44,078
Leah: It's sometimes hard to read other
people's faces, even for me or for other

722
00:41:44,126 --> 00:41:47,182
neurotypicals, because your face is going to
do what it does.

723
00:41:47,318 --> 00:41:50,394
Some people's face doesn't match their emotion
at all.

724
00:41:51,014 --> 00:41:51,918
Mine doesn't?

725
00:41:52,006 --> 00:41:52,422
Moshe: No.

726
00:41:52,518 --> 00:41:55,774
Leah: When I'm concentrating, I can look
really, really angry.

727
00:41:55,894 --> 00:41:56,454
Moshe: Yeah.

728
00:41:56,574 --> 00:42:00,954
Leah: Or if I just forget to be pleasant,
honestly, I forget to be really, really angry.

729
00:42:01,534 --> 00:42:02,474
Moshe: That's true.

730
00:42:03,014 --> 00:42:06,154
Leah: You have the same problem, actually,
yes.

731
00:42:07,014 --> 00:42:13,462
So if you come over to me and give me a warm
touch, I'm like, okay, he's not angry or

732
00:42:13,478 --> 00:42:13,710
whatever.

733
00:42:13,742 --> 00:42:15,182
He's just concentrating.

734
00:42:15,358 --> 00:42:18,966
So it's a really quick way to read somebody's
intentions.

735
00:42:19,150 --> 00:42:20,470
Moshe: Now, I just.

736
00:42:20,622 --> 00:42:23,398
I would be remiss if I didn't include animals

737
00:42:23,446 --> 00:42:33,482
in that, too, because when you establish a
connection with an animal, you can both, to a

738
00:42:33,498 --> 00:42:36,138
certain extent, they can feel where you're at.

739
00:42:36,266 --> 00:42:38,254
And you can feel where they're at.

740
00:42:38,954 --> 00:42:40,034
Because if you're staring.

741
00:42:40,074 --> 00:42:40,474
I don't know.

742
00:42:40,514 --> 00:42:42,522
I'll use a dog as an example.

743
00:42:42,658 --> 00:42:45,274
If you're looking at a dog, you don't always

744
00:42:45,354 --> 00:42:48,530
know where their head is at.

745
00:42:48,722 --> 00:42:50,386
Sometimes the dog doesn't even know where

746
00:42:50,410 --> 00:42:51,010
their head is at.

747
00:42:51,042 --> 00:42:51,746
Leah: Correct.

748
00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:54,082
Moshe: The dog is very suspicious of you.

749
00:42:54,218 --> 00:42:56,074
You're very suspicious of the dog.

750
00:42:56,194 --> 00:42:57,826
There's a bit of an impasse.

751
00:42:57,970 --> 00:42:59,762
But then you kind of put your hand out a

752
00:42:59,778 --> 00:43:02,574
little bit, and maybe they sniff your hand.

753
00:43:03,074 --> 00:43:06,642
And because dogs have a lot of sensitivity in

754
00:43:06,658 --> 00:43:12,378
their nose, the whole act of putting their
nose on your hand establishes that physical

755
00:43:12,426 --> 00:43:18,186
touch for the dog, a lot of the time will
establish that level of trust.

756
00:43:18,330 --> 00:43:20,304
Okay, so now I'm touching it now.

757
00:43:20,354 --> 00:43:22,104
Now we have some connection.

758
00:43:22,604 --> 00:43:26,228
And then you can advance to, maybe you're
putting your head on their head, their hand on

759
00:43:26,236 --> 00:43:30,172
their head, or their hand on their body, and
you're making that connection.

760
00:43:30,228 --> 00:43:34,276
You're telling that dog, okay, you can trust
me.

761
00:43:34,420 --> 00:43:39,540
Whereas alternatively, if the dog shies away
from your touch or you.

762
00:43:39,612 --> 00:43:44,884
You touch it, and you can feel stiffness or
you know, it's not.

763
00:43:45,044 --> 00:43:51,778
It doesn't feel warm, and it feels very tense,
then, you know, okay, so this dog is not in a

764
00:43:51,786 --> 00:43:52,226
good place.

765
00:43:52,290 --> 00:43:54,174
I might want to pull my hand back.

766
00:43:55,034 --> 00:43:56,730
And we teach kids that.

767
00:43:56,842 --> 00:43:59,010
We tell children, let the dog come to you.

768
00:43:59,082 --> 00:44:00,570
Like, let the dog come to you.

769
00:44:00,682 --> 00:44:03,258
If you touch a dog and you feel like it's

770
00:44:03,306 --> 00:44:08,850
maybe not doing, even before it starts
growling or stiffening up, if you feel that

771
00:44:08,882 --> 00:44:13,908
maybe the dog is not, like, responding to your
touch, pull your hand back, take a step back.

772
00:44:13,956 --> 00:44:16,948
Leah: That's hard with little dogs because
little dogs can act like they like you, and

773
00:44:16,956 --> 00:44:17,516
then they'll bite you.

774
00:44:17,540 --> 00:44:19,060
Moshe: Little dogs and cats.

775
00:44:19,132 --> 00:44:21,532
Cats will like, pat, pat, pat, chomp.

776
00:44:21,708 --> 00:44:23,428
Cats are weird that way, too.

777
00:44:23,596 --> 00:44:24,676
I'm used to big dogs.

778
00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:26,268
I've always had really large dogs.

779
00:44:26,356 --> 00:44:29,332
So for a big dog with lots of muscles, when

780
00:44:29,348 --> 00:44:34,596
you touch a dog, you can usually see if it's
feeling relaxed or tense, even if you're

781
00:44:34,620 --> 00:44:35,052
blind.

782
00:44:35,148 --> 00:44:38,572
Leah: And to be honest with you, the trust
with a big dog has to be there because you

783
00:44:38,588 --> 00:44:43,622
have an animal in your home that can actually
kill you if they chose to, and it has to be

784
00:44:43,638 --> 00:44:44,270
there.

785
00:44:44,462 --> 00:44:46,794
Moshe: Yeah. So animals are very.

786
00:44:48,454 --> 00:44:51,094
Animals are very responsive to touch to.

787
00:44:51,254 --> 00:44:57,110
And if an animal will approach you, actually,
if you have an animal that will actually come

788
00:44:57,142 --> 00:45:02,926
to you, whether it's a dog or a bird or some
other animal, you want the animal to come to

789
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:06,062
you, whether you have food or just you're
putting your hand out, and they kind of want

790
00:45:06,078 --> 00:45:07,424
to figure out what's going on.

791
00:45:07,574 --> 00:45:10,540
When you have that touch with that animal,

792
00:45:10,652 --> 00:45:11,828
you're establishing trust.

793
00:45:11,876 --> 00:45:14,436
And just like with a person, when you touch a

794
00:45:14,460 --> 00:45:17,744
person, you are letting the person know I'm
here.

795
00:45:18,564 --> 00:45:25,660
Either I'm feeling that emotion with you, or
at the very basic level here, you know, I'm

796
00:45:25,692 --> 00:45:26,548
touching you.

797
00:45:26,676 --> 00:45:28,064
You can trust me.

798
00:45:28,484 --> 00:45:33,670
Which is why they tell people if you want to
establish trust with someone in sale, put your

799
00:45:33,702 --> 00:45:34,510
hand on their shoulder.

800
00:45:34,542 --> 00:45:35,454
Leah: That's gross, though.

801
00:45:35,534 --> 00:45:37,806
Moshe: It's gross, but it's a tactic.

802
00:45:37,910 --> 00:45:39,634
It's like, hey, how's it going?

803
00:45:40,014 --> 00:45:45,126
You know, the salesman will like, you know,
grab your shoulder, go, hey, how's it going?

804
00:45:45,310 --> 00:45:46,430
Because we.

805
00:45:46,502 --> 00:45:49,630
They're taught that touch establishes trust.

806
00:45:49,822 --> 00:45:52,974
It's fake trust, but it's still trust.

807
00:45:53,054 --> 00:45:55,502
Leah: That was actually the next topic, so you
already covered it.

808
00:45:55,558 --> 00:45:55,902
Moshe: Well, I know.

809
00:45:55,918 --> 00:45:56,518
I'm reading down.

810
00:45:56,566 --> 00:45:57,314
Leah: Oh, all right.

811
00:45:58,134 --> 00:45:58,574
All right.

812
00:45:58,614 --> 00:46:01,822
So touch can reduce pain and enhance joy.

813
00:46:01,998 --> 00:46:02,754
Moshe: Yes.

814
00:46:04,054 --> 00:46:12,406
Leah: Especially if it's somebody that you
love and you have an oxytocin bond with no so

815
00:46:12,470 --> 00:46:17,934
an example, this is quite personal, but an
example is when I'm menstruating and I'm very

816
00:46:17,974 --> 00:46:18,710
uncomfortable.

817
00:46:18,822 --> 00:46:23,126
I want cuddles and hugs from you constantly.

818
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:23,638
Moshe: Yes.

819
00:46:23,686 --> 00:46:25,974
Leah: Because it literally will calm my body
down.

820
00:46:26,014 --> 00:46:30,218
It will cause pain relief.

821
00:46:30,386 --> 00:46:39,066
Moshe: Yeah. Touch with someone that you trust
or someone that you care about can have a

822
00:46:39,090 --> 00:46:40,218
calming effect on the body.

823
00:46:40,266 --> 00:46:42,994
Not just when someone's menstruating, because

824
00:46:43,074 --> 00:46:48,690
obviously I don't, but when I'm very upset,
when I'm very anxious, when I'm very tense,

825
00:46:48,802 --> 00:46:51,802
when I'm very unsure about what's going on.

826
00:46:51,938 --> 00:46:52,690
When.

827
00:46:52,882 --> 00:46:58,226
Because I'm autistic, you know, I'm hoping
that by episode, where are we at?

828
00:46:58,250 --> 00:47:02,186
Like eleven now?
By episode eleven, you should probably know

829
00:47:02,210 --> 00:47:04,130
that when we talk about now, you know, one
autistic.

830
00:47:04,162 --> 00:47:05,162
I'm not one autistic.

831
00:47:05,218 --> 00:47:06,010
So I'm autistic.

832
00:47:06,042 --> 00:47:10,778
And sometimes not just with Leah, but with
other people, I don't always know what's going

833
00:47:10,826 --> 00:47:18,042
on because reading facial cues, reading
personal, like space, nonverbal, whatever, I

834
00:47:18,058 --> 00:47:18,986
don't always know.

835
00:47:19,130 --> 00:47:21,962
So sometimes I'm in that neutral zone where

836
00:47:21,978 --> 00:47:26,098
I'll be like, leah, are you okay?
Or is there something going on?

837
00:47:26,226 --> 00:47:27,802
I'm exhibiting anxiety.

838
00:47:27,938 --> 00:47:32,130
I am sort of casting a line into Leah and

839
00:47:32,162 --> 00:47:35,854
going, okay, I need to catch something from
you.

840
00:47:36,634 --> 00:47:45,002
And you can establish that level of joy or the
level of comfort, that reduction of anxiety,

841
00:47:45,178 --> 00:47:50,882
that feeling of peace by sort of hugging me or
touching me and going, I'm fine, Rosha.

842
00:47:50,938 --> 00:47:52,578
I'm just really distracted.

843
00:47:52,626 --> 00:47:55,978
I'm really dizzy, or I just had a really tough

844
00:47:56,026 --> 00:47:57,574
conversation on the phone.

845
00:47:59,154 --> 00:48:04,930
And before I became more religious, my

846
00:48:04,962 --> 00:48:07,974
employers would actually have that.

847
00:48:08,314 --> 00:48:09,934
It was like an introduction.

848
00:48:11,194 --> 00:48:11,842
Kelly.

849
00:48:11,938 --> 00:48:12,974
Liberty Kelly.

850
00:48:13,834 --> 00:48:15,410
I was very close with Kelly.

851
00:48:15,442 --> 00:48:19,866
Kelly was my manager for a previous job for a

852
00:48:19,890 --> 00:48:20,826
number of years.

853
00:48:20,970 --> 00:48:23,170
And every single meeting would start the same

854
00:48:23,202 --> 00:48:23,538
way.

855
00:48:23,626 --> 00:48:25,414
Moshe, can I talk to you for a minute?

856
00:48:26,914 --> 00:48:27,658
Sure.

857
00:48:27,826 --> 00:48:28,890
Don't worry, Moshe.

858
00:48:28,962 --> 00:48:30,314
You've done nothing wrong.

859
00:48:30,474 --> 00:48:30,986
Okay?

860
00:48:31,050 --> 00:48:32,506
I want to make sure you're not.

861
00:48:32,650 --> 00:48:34,690
Just take a seat.

862
00:48:34,882 --> 00:48:36,894
I just want to see how things are going.

863
00:48:37,674 --> 00:48:39,290
You establish that trust?

864
00:48:39,402 --> 00:48:40,094
Yep.

865
00:48:42,394 --> 00:48:44,922
To the point when there were even points where

866
00:48:44,938 --> 00:48:49,482
I was having a particularly bad day where she
would actually like, can I hug you?

867
00:48:49,498 --> 00:48:50,218
Is that okay?

868
00:48:50,306 --> 00:48:52,506
Leah: Very smushable person, though.

869
00:48:52,690 --> 00:48:56,506
Moshe: And that feeling of, I want to talk to
you.

870
00:48:56,650 --> 00:48:57,258
But here's.

871
00:48:57,306 --> 00:48:58,414
Here's touch.

872
00:48:58,834 --> 00:49:05,866
And touch can bring a tense situation down to
a much less tense or even a resolved

873
00:49:05,930 --> 00:49:06,510
situation.

874
00:49:06,642 --> 00:49:07,662
Leah: See, it's very different.

875
00:49:07,718 --> 00:49:11,078
So you're speaking about your manager, who was

876
00:49:11,126 --> 00:49:13,278
a woman and an older woman.

877
00:49:13,446 --> 00:49:16,382
So she was kind of, I guess, in a mother role.

878
00:49:16,438 --> 00:49:17,302
Kind of, yeah.

879
00:49:17,358 --> 00:49:20,030
It is very different for me, having a male

880
00:49:20,062 --> 00:49:21,638
boss coming up and touching me.

881
00:49:21,686 --> 00:49:23,354
Moshe: Obviously very different.

882
00:49:24,894 --> 00:49:28,034
And again, not just one autistic, but one man.

883
00:49:29,454 --> 00:49:32,946
Males with female bosses, especially.

884
00:49:33,090 --> 00:49:34,890
And again, now I'm going to get into trouble,

885
00:49:35,042 --> 00:49:37,494
especially older female bosses.

886
00:49:38,154 --> 00:49:43,914
Oftentimes the man will view them in, like, a

887
00:49:43,954 --> 00:49:44,570
motherly room.

888
00:49:44,602 --> 00:49:44,746
Leah: Right.

889
00:49:44,770 --> 00:49:46,786
Like, you were going to be intimidated by her.

890
00:49:46,850 --> 00:49:48,514
Whereas the other way around for me.

891
00:49:48,554 --> 00:49:53,514
Moshe: Whereas a younger girl with an older
man who is like, how are you doing?

892
00:49:53,674 --> 00:49:56,474
Putting your hand on their shoulder, giving
them a hug.

893
00:49:56,554 --> 00:49:57,530
Leah: Absolutely not.

894
00:49:57,642 --> 00:50:03,496
Moshe: Absolutely different connotations,
absolutely different circumstances.

895
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,832
But for whatever reason, we can talk about the
concept of sexism in the workplace or

896
00:50:07,848 --> 00:50:08,112
whatever.

897
00:50:08,168 --> 00:50:09,136
Leah: Double standard.

898
00:50:09,240 --> 00:50:09,968
Absolutely.

899
00:50:10,016 --> 00:50:11,384
But it's totally real.

900
00:50:11,544 --> 00:50:21,648
Moshe: When an older supervisor physically
touches or hugs their male subordinate, it

901
00:50:21,696 --> 00:50:28,020
oftentimes is in a very motherly,
grandmotherly, you know, kind role, whereas

902
00:50:28,052 --> 00:50:31,076
the reverse is absolutely the opposite.

903
00:50:31,220 --> 00:50:34,692
And again, this is not a podcast on workplace

904
00:50:34,748 --> 00:50:35,584
politics.

905
00:50:35,924 --> 00:50:42,836
And as a, as a, as a, as a rule, both leah and

906
00:50:42,860 --> 00:50:46,876
I advocate that if you are a supervisor in a
workplace, don't touch people.

907
00:50:46,940 --> 00:50:48,276
Don't touch your employee.

908
00:50:48,380 --> 00:50:49,620
Leah: I was a supervisor.

909
00:50:49,692 --> 00:50:54,798
Moshe: It's really not gonna go anywhere good
for a lot of people.

910
00:50:54,846 --> 00:50:56,734
And in fact, it may result in complaints.

911
00:50:56,774 --> 00:51:00,554
Leah: I was a supervisor, and I really made a
point of not touching people.

912
00:51:01,454 --> 00:51:06,334
Moshe: To the extent that you don't want to
touch your co workers.

913
00:51:06,494 --> 00:51:14,054
And they even tell, like, teachers after a
certain grade, you don't even touch your

914
00:51:14,094 --> 00:51:14,754
student.

915
00:51:15,574 --> 00:51:17,342
Leah: I mean, that's a whole other, that's.

916
00:51:17,358 --> 00:51:17,966
Moshe: A whole other thing.

917
00:51:17,990 --> 00:51:23,152
But in the day, in the day right up until,

918
00:51:23,328 --> 00:51:27,444
like, the end of elementary school, teachers
were touching people.

919
00:51:27,944 --> 00:51:34,000
I had one teacher that used to hit a student
if they weren't paying attention, and that was

920
00:51:34,032 --> 00:51:42,440
expected, the mom would be like, the kid would
go home and go, misses whatever hit me.

921
00:51:42,552 --> 00:51:46,316
So were you paying attention?
Like, what were you doing to make her hate

922
00:51:46,340 --> 00:51:46,572
you?

923
00:51:46,628 --> 00:51:52,564
Leah: Actually, that happened to you again, we
discussed how, you know, we were essentially

924
00:51:52,604 --> 00:51:56,100
family when we were younger, and each other's
moms took care of each other and stuff.

925
00:51:56,132 --> 00:51:59,972
And yes, my mom would spank you, and you would
tell your mom, you know, Judy spanked me.

926
00:51:59,988 --> 00:52:01,388
And she'd be like, you deserved it.

927
00:52:01,476 --> 00:52:01,836
Moshe: Oh, yeah.

928
00:52:01,860 --> 00:52:03,076
And I absolutely did, because I was.

929
00:52:03,100 --> 00:52:06,260
Leah: A bad, I don't actually remember, but.

930
00:52:06,292 --> 00:52:08,612
Moshe: But your mom, she was scary.

931
00:52:08,668 --> 00:52:09,356
Yeah, she was.

932
00:52:09,460 --> 00:52:12,024
In her day, she was a scary, scary woman.

933
00:52:14,114 --> 00:52:15,282
Leah: Your mom didn't even question.

934
00:52:15,338 --> 00:52:16,354
She's like, you deserved it.

935
00:52:16,394 --> 00:52:19,818
Moshe: Yeah, I'm sure whatever she did to you,
you absolutely deserved.

936
00:52:19,946 --> 00:52:22,298
What did she hit you with, a stick?
Yeah, no problem.

937
00:52:22,466 --> 00:52:24,334
You must have done something really bad.

938
00:52:25,634 --> 00:52:29,122
Leah: Anyway, moving along, it was the
eighties.

939
00:52:29,178 --> 00:52:29,930
Guys don't judge.

940
00:52:29,962 --> 00:52:33,874
Moshe: It was the eighties, and people hit
everyone then we don't do it anymore.

941
00:52:33,994 --> 00:52:34,850
There's other ways.

942
00:52:34,922 --> 00:52:39,754
Leah: Speaking of children, touch deprivation,
let's discuss that for a little bit.

943
00:52:39,914 --> 00:52:40,614
Moshe: Right.

944
00:52:41,114 --> 00:52:44,306
Leah: Not too long, because, of course, we've
already used up all our time, as usual.

945
00:52:44,370 --> 00:52:53,250
Moshe: But touch deprecation is a really,
really, really complex subject that they've

946
00:52:53,282 --> 00:52:55,554
actually done scientific studies on.

947
00:52:55,634 --> 00:52:56,418
Leah: You can google them.

948
00:52:56,466 --> 00:52:58,042
You should if you're interested.

949
00:52:58,138 --> 00:53:03,154
Moshe: I think the studies that we learned
about or that I learned about in psychology

950
00:53:03,234 --> 00:53:04,100
101.

951
00:53:04,242 --> 00:53:06,224
Was it a russian orphanage?

952
00:53:06,304 --> 00:53:09,984
Leah: Yeah. So they didn't do the study on
purpose because it literally would have been

953
00:53:10,064 --> 00:53:10,672
cruelty.

954
00:53:10,768 --> 00:53:11,280
Moshe: Oh, absolutely.

955
00:53:11,312 --> 00:53:12,240
Leah: What they did was they.

956
00:53:12,272 --> 00:53:14,840
They found kids that were neglected in russian

957
00:53:14,872 --> 00:53:17,368
orphanages, and they followed them through
life.

958
00:53:17,536 --> 00:53:23,524
And they saw that the deprivation of touch as
babies caused them to have global delays,

959
00:53:23,864 --> 00:53:26,712
essentially, until they stopped following
them.

960
00:53:26,848 --> 00:53:27,524
Moshe: Right.

961
00:53:27,984 --> 00:53:31,434
Leah: And emotionally, they couldn't develop.

962
00:53:31,624 --> 00:53:33,194
They were slower learners.

963
00:53:34,094 --> 00:53:37,270
They had mental illness, even physically.

964
00:53:37,342 --> 00:53:40,102
They didn't grow as well or didn't want to

965
00:53:40,118 --> 00:53:40,478
eat.

966
00:53:40,566 --> 00:53:41,126
Didn't want to.

967
00:53:41,150 --> 00:53:43,366
Moshe: You know, a lot of these are
unintentional studies.

968
00:53:43,470 --> 00:53:48,438
There were significant, intentional,
unfortunately, studies on a number of

969
00:53:48,526 --> 00:53:49,102
different things.

970
00:53:49,158 --> 00:53:52,814
There's the case of Jeannie, which I

971
00:53:52,854 --> 00:53:57,966
absolutely recommend you look up because it's
a fascinating case in childhood development.

972
00:53:58,070 --> 00:54:00,532
It's always enthralled me.

973
00:54:00,668 --> 00:54:06,612
They did a study on a monkey baby that was

974
00:54:06,628 --> 00:54:10,944
abandoned by its mother, and they ended up.

975
00:54:13,004 --> 00:54:14,860
The baby wasn't thriving.

976
00:54:14,932 --> 00:54:15,708
It wasn't eating.

977
00:54:15,796 --> 00:54:16,644
It wasn't drinking.

978
00:54:16,684 --> 00:54:18,460
It was essentially dying.

979
00:54:18,652 --> 00:54:23,620
And the keeper ended up introducing to their

980
00:54:23,652 --> 00:54:26,034
habitat a hand puppet.

981
00:54:26,414 --> 00:54:27,926
And it was just a hand puppet.

982
00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:29,222
It was made of a sock.

983
00:54:29,398 --> 00:54:33,070
But the mere fact that this baby chimp or

984
00:54:33,102 --> 00:54:40,702
whatever was able to hug this surrogate puppet
actually caused it to grow and thrive.

985
00:54:40,878 --> 00:54:46,918
Human touch, or the ability to feel a
connection with something.

986
00:54:47,046 --> 00:54:53,336
Is actually crucial to the development of
children and to the emotional development of

987
00:54:53,360 --> 00:54:53,688
people.

988
00:54:53,776 --> 00:54:56,152
Leah: So with babies, it starts.

989
00:54:56,288 --> 00:54:57,696
I mean, while they're in the womb, they're

990
00:54:57,720 --> 00:54:58,840
touching you constantly.

991
00:54:58,912 --> 00:54:59,216
Moshe: Right.

992
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:03,560
Leah: But it starts immediately where if
they're not touched enough, it does impact

993
00:55:03,632 --> 00:55:04,008
development.

994
00:55:04,096 --> 00:55:07,584
Touch has been scientifically proven to be

995
00:55:07,664 --> 00:55:11,856
necessary not just for humans, but, as you
said, other animals as well.

996
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,416
But for humans, absolutely.

997
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:16,000
You can't grow without it.

998
00:55:16,072 --> 00:55:18,730
You can't thrive without it.

999
00:55:18,882 --> 00:55:21,374
It's hard sometimes to even live without it.

1000
00:55:21,914 --> 00:55:27,714
Moshe: Humans are unique in that a lot of
humans will actually intentionally isolate

1001
00:55:27,754 --> 00:55:29,374
themselves, at least partially.

1002
00:55:29,834 --> 00:55:32,654
But there are many animals, in particular,

1003
00:55:33,314 --> 00:55:39,250
most rodents, rats, mysterbals, hamsters, not
hamsters, hamsters or gross, but rats,

1004
00:55:39,282 --> 00:55:43,746
maesturbals, digues, and sugar gliders.

1005
00:55:43,850 --> 00:55:46,490
There is a, and again, this is a bit of a non

1006
00:55:46,522 --> 00:55:52,082
sequitur, but also relevant, there is a breed
of marsupial called a sugar glider, you might

1007
00:55:52,098 --> 00:55:55,170
have seen them, they have like the wings and
the fly, like flying sprouts.

1008
00:55:55,322 --> 00:56:01,434
And if you do not keep them in at least pairs,
but preferably groups of four or five or six,

1009
00:56:01,554 --> 00:56:02,882
they will actually die.

1010
00:56:03,018 --> 00:56:05,786
They actually require the touch of their own

1011
00:56:05,890 --> 00:56:07,898
species in order to function.

1012
00:56:07,986 --> 00:56:08,386
Leah: Absolutely.

1013
00:56:08,410 --> 00:56:11,370
But that's why you see, you know, when rodents

1014
00:56:11,402 --> 00:56:12,570
sleep, they sleep in piles.

1015
00:56:12,602 --> 00:56:14,634
There's a reason why it's called a dog pile.

1016
00:56:14,714 --> 00:56:18,410
Yeah, dogs will sleep in piles, or they sleep
with their masters in the bed.

1017
00:56:18,482 --> 00:56:22,254
Moshe: Most animals will, if given the option,
sleep in groups.

1018
00:56:22,634 --> 00:56:27,074
Even cats, who are by nature very isolating,
will often sleep together.

1019
00:56:27,194 --> 00:56:28,802
Leah: Yeah, absolutely.

1020
00:56:28,978 --> 00:56:32,322
So touch is just, it's a necessity of life,

1021
00:56:32,458 --> 00:56:36,178
right?
So the antithesis of touch deprivation, ocean.

1022
00:56:36,226 --> 00:56:40,108
Moshe: Leah, is animal climate, new podcast
ideas?

1023
00:56:40,196 --> 00:56:40,780
Leah: Absolutely.

1024
00:56:40,812 --> 00:56:44,864
No, you could probably do it just on your own.

1025
00:56:45,844 --> 00:56:51,724
So the antithesis of touch deprivation is
actually sort of a new theory that people have

1026
00:56:51,764 --> 00:56:53,500
called haptic communication.

1027
00:56:53,692 --> 00:56:54,948
Moshe: Right, explain what that is.

1028
00:56:54,996 --> 00:57:00,224
Leah: Now, the term haptic comes from the
greek root hapticos, which means touch,

1029
00:57:00,524 --> 00:57:04,386
because a lot of people don't know what haptic
means, but if you like, look at your cell

1030
00:57:04,410 --> 00:57:06,898
phone settings, it'll say if you have haptics
on or off.

1031
00:57:06,946 --> 00:57:10,770
Yes, the haptic is when your phone will
vibrate back to you so that you know you're

1032
00:57:10,802 --> 00:57:11,418
touching it.

1033
00:57:11,506 --> 00:57:12,178
Moshe: Yeah.

1034
00:57:12,346 --> 00:57:15,974
Leah: So essentially it does refer to touch
feedback.

1035
00:57:16,274 --> 00:57:20,282
So what people are trying to do now,
especially with children who are

1036
00:57:20,298 --> 00:57:27,170
neurodivergent, is always include in
communication some sort of habits.

1037
00:57:27,322 --> 00:57:32,504
So some sort of, either they physically touch
them or their, I don't know, in compression

1038
00:57:32,544 --> 00:57:38,416
clothing, or some sort of haptic feedback
while trying to do the verbal communication,

1039
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:42,408
because they've noticed, just like I noticed
through trial and error in our relationship,

1040
00:57:42,456 --> 00:57:47,008
that it's a much faster way to get the
information in to any child, really.

1041
00:57:47,056 --> 00:57:52,000
But especially neurodivergent children, and
especially differently.

1042
00:57:52,032 --> 00:57:57,890
Moshe: Verbal children, yes, if you want
something to connect with them verbally, touch

1043
00:57:57,962 --> 00:57:58,170
is.

1044
00:57:58,202 --> 00:58:01,570
Leah: Very important, and it's an interesting
theory behind it.

1045
00:58:01,722 --> 00:58:08,970
They think that because in the womb, touch is
the first sense to develop, therefore it is

1046
00:58:09,002 --> 00:58:14,226
the strongest sense I have heard that,
therefore it's required for basically

1047
00:58:14,410 --> 00:58:16,570
everything, right.

1048
00:58:16,762 --> 00:58:17,634
Moshe: And including.

1049
00:58:17,714 --> 00:58:23,658
It is very similar to, in a lot of ways, why a

1050
00:58:23,666 --> 00:58:27,066
lot of new mothers will often calm their
babies with the sound of a heartbeat or

1051
00:58:27,090 --> 00:58:27,490
something.

1052
00:58:27,602 --> 00:58:31,050
Leah: Isn't it wild?
These are real stories where babies will come

1053
00:58:31,082 --> 00:58:38,362
out and not breathing or come out and seem to
pass away almost right away, and then the mom

1054
00:58:38,418 --> 00:58:42,170
will hold it because they want to say goodbye
or whatever, and the baby will sort of come

1055
00:58:42,202 --> 00:58:42,730
back.

1056
00:58:42,882 --> 00:58:43,574
Moshe: Right.

1057
00:58:44,154 --> 00:58:47,418
It's restoring a little bit of the familiarity

1058
00:58:47,586 --> 00:58:52,442
of the womb almost to bringing a child to
thrive.

1059
00:58:52,578 --> 00:58:59,106
And that is also why in most, at least modern,
you know, hospitals or birthing centers, they

1060
00:58:59,170 --> 00:59:01,554
take the baby out and then they put it on the
mother.

1061
00:59:01,594 --> 00:59:05,218
They establish that touch immediately, or the
father.

1062
00:59:05,266 --> 00:59:06,562
I mean, it doesn't really matter.

1063
00:59:06,738 --> 00:59:08,186
Leah: I mean, they put it on mom.

1064
00:59:08,330 --> 00:59:10,266
Moshe: Right away, mostly to facilitate life.

1065
00:59:10,330 --> 00:59:12,842
Leah: Mom, is there breastfeeding or generally
the.

1066
00:59:12,858 --> 00:59:16,442
Moshe: Baby'S coming out of mom?
If it's not, then there's something else we

1067
00:59:16,458 --> 00:59:17,814
can get into that, I guess.

1068
00:59:18,554 --> 00:59:19,698
Leah: Maybe not today.

1069
00:59:19,826 --> 00:59:20,552
Moshe: Right.

1070
00:59:20,738 --> 00:59:21,484
Leah: Um, but, yeah.

1071
00:59:21,524 --> 00:59:23,316
So generally they'll put the baby on mom, but

1072
00:59:23,340 --> 00:59:26,572
then there's this concept called the fourth
trimester.

1073
00:59:26,668 --> 00:59:27,356
Moshe: Right, right.

1074
00:59:27,420 --> 00:59:28,396
The first month of life.

1075
00:59:28,460 --> 00:59:28,732
Leah: Right.

1076
00:59:28,788 --> 00:59:30,484
The first three months of life, actually,

1077
00:59:30,564 --> 00:59:33,916
where baby is supposed to be on someone
constantly because they're not actually

1078
00:59:33,980 --> 00:59:34,612
developed.

1079
00:59:34,708 --> 00:59:37,148
No, humans have to come out half baked because

1080
00:59:37,196 --> 00:59:39,972
otherwise their heads would be too big to pass
through the birth.

1081
00:59:40,028 --> 00:59:43,916
Moshe: The human brain is a phenomenal thing,
but it requires an extra three months to cook.

1082
00:59:43,980 --> 00:59:45,324
Leah: Yep. Basically, yes.

1083
00:59:45,444 --> 00:59:47,360
That's why babies floor up everywhere and just

1084
00:59:47,392 --> 00:59:50,056
to kind of look like they don't know what
they're doing, because they don't.

1085
00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,760
Moshe: Because you're giving birth to
essentially an almost developed fetus and just

1086
00:59:53,792 --> 00:59:58,696
kind of hoping that it finishes rising like a
loaf of bread once it I'll trimester.

1087
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,808
Leah: And we're both big believers in that
one, at least.

1088
01:00:00,856 --> 01:00:01,644
Moshe: Oh, yes.

1089
01:00:02,624 --> 01:00:05,616
Again, back to the my love of attachment

1090
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:06,524
parenting.

1091
01:00:07,064 --> 01:00:10,208
If there's anything that definitively states

1092
01:00:10,256 --> 01:00:18,014
that having your child against your body, at
least initially, is harmful, then I have yet

1093
01:00:18,054 --> 01:00:18,598
to see it.

1094
01:00:18,646 --> 01:00:19,758
Leah: I have not seen it.

1095
01:00:19,806 --> 01:00:27,494
Moshe: And I believe that the more contact
that a newborn can have with both its parents,

1096
01:00:27,614 --> 01:00:33,638
mother and father, if they're lucky enough to
have both parents, the healthier and happier

1097
01:00:33,686 --> 01:00:34,030
they do.

1098
01:00:34,062 --> 01:00:36,902
And I know that studies have confirmed, at

1099
01:00:36,918 --> 01:00:40,742
least in most cases, that the more physical
contact the parents have that the child, the

1100
01:00:40,758 --> 01:00:41,860
stronger the bond.

1101
01:00:42,022 --> 01:00:44,752
Obviously, there's exceptions to every rule,

1102
01:00:44,888 --> 01:00:49,648
but the medical professionals and the
scientists and the developmental psychologists

1103
01:00:49,696 --> 01:00:57,640
all agree that definitely as much tuck as
possible with your newborn is necessary.

1104
01:00:57,752 --> 01:00:59,088
Leah: When I was in the home.

1105
01:00:59,176 --> 01:01:00,824
So when I wasn't out doing something else,

1106
01:01:00,864 --> 01:01:04,440
Raya lived on me for the first two to three
years of her life.

1107
01:01:04,592 --> 01:01:05,792
And she's still very.

1108
01:01:05,928 --> 01:01:07,008
Moshe: She still lives on me.

1109
01:01:07,056 --> 01:01:10,262
Leah: Yeah. Bigger than me, but she still sits
in my lap.

1110
01:01:10,358 --> 01:01:10,734
Moshe: Right.

1111
01:01:10,814 --> 01:01:14,194
So where are we?

1112
01:01:14,854 --> 01:01:17,542
Leah: That was everything that we wanted to
cover, actually.

1113
01:01:17,598 --> 01:01:18,086
About touch.

1114
01:01:18,110 --> 01:01:19,350
Unless you had something else.

1115
01:01:19,462 --> 01:01:21,710
Moshe: No, I mean, this episode was very
touching.

1116
01:01:21,862 --> 01:01:29,654
Oh, and we are happy to be back depending on
what order you're listening to.

1117
01:01:29,774 --> 01:01:32,046
I was struggling with pneumonia for a while.

1118
01:01:32,190 --> 01:01:34,502
As you can see, there's been far less coughing

1119
01:01:34,558 --> 01:01:37,960
and, you know, stuff in this episode.

1120
01:01:37,992 --> 01:01:42,600
And God willing, we will go back to a regular

1121
01:01:42,672 --> 01:01:48,264
schedule going forward of weekly updates or
more, depending on how energetic we are.

1122
01:01:48,304 --> 01:01:51,840
But we look forward to continuing our journey
with you.

1123
01:01:51,912 --> 01:01:53,164
Leah: Thanks for listening.

1124
01:01:53,624 --> 01:01:55,440
Moshe: Well, that's our show for today.

1125
01:01:55,592 --> 01:01:57,920
Now, you know one autistic just a little bit

1126
01:01:57,952 --> 01:01:58,524
better.

1127
01:01:58,984 --> 01:02:02,424
So something you may not know about some

1128
01:02:02,464 --> 01:02:06,884
autistics is that we often struggle with
ending social interactions.

1129
01:02:07,304 --> 01:02:08,924
So, Leah.

1130
01:02:09,744 --> 01:02:10,768
Leah: All right, Moshe.

1131
01:02:10,816 --> 01:02:12,144
I'll take care of it.

1132
01:02:12,304 --> 01:02:15,192
Thank you for listening to now you know one
autistic.

1133
01:02:15,248 --> 01:02:16,024
See you next week.