Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
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Music.
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Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic. I'm Leah, and I'm boring.
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Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,
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marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.
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The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.
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Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion,
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and unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the
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many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.
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But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will
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be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,
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a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.
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If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,
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consult your family doctor.
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Music.
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Hi, Moshe. Hi, Leah. How are you today, Annie? I'm great.
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So, we haven't recorded in a little while because it's been a holiday, right?
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In Israel and in our own personal lives, we don't talk a lot about it,
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but we are Orthodox Jews, So, we do observe the Jewish holidays,
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and it was just Pesach, or some people might know as Passover,
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which in Israel lasts a week.
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Two of the days are holidays, and the other five days are sort of intermediate
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days where they're kind of holidays, but kind of not.
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Essentially, they're a vacation. So, our children were home the whole time.
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Yeah. And we love our children, and we love spending time with them.
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But they they don't exactly
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make it easy to take time
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away and because right now we're we're using very we'll call
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it rudimentary podcasting equipment so it
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it's not like we have like the privacy to say okay so you know mom and annab
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are going to the recording studio right now so we need an hour to ourselves
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so if you've been followed closely and you've been sort of waiting with Bated
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Breath for new episodes.
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We do apologize, but there will be times, as Moshe said, as Orthodox Jews that
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we just won't be available because there are some times we can't use electronics at all.
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And often, especially in Israel, our children will be off during those times.
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We don't want to talk too, too much, at least right now about,
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you know, Israel or, you know, being Jewish because it's not relevant necessarily
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to the content of the podcast, But we absolutely do want to get into it.
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And of course, if you have any questions or you want us to do an episode specific
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to that, then we could definitely consider it.
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Maybe that would actually be a good special episode.
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I feel like it's something we would only do if there was a high demand for it. For sure.
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So anyway. Anyway, talking about holidays. Yes.
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Segue, everyone, or as Moshe would say, transition. So it's a good segue into
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today's subject, which is navigating social situations.
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Because during the past week, we've had a lot of social gatherings to attend, right, Moshe?
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Yeah, so the highlight of Pesach, or Passover, is the Seder.
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And in Israel, because it's only one day, there's only one Seder,
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and it's the first day of Passover.
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So, we ended up going the first night to a large Seder that was put on by our synagogue.
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And if you are familiar with how a Seder goes, it's very ritualized,
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which I do very well with because I'm autistic.
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Did you know? I did. it okay so it's
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very ritualized and there's a lot now
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you have to eat the thing with the whatever
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and now you have to to read this story and now you have to do this thing with
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the wine and it's it's very uh conversely it's also a very high social situation
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so for example where we went there are at least 100 people in the room if not
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more yeah all sitting together all chatting everybody having their own demands.
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And for me, it was especially challenging because I had both Moshe and Avram
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with me in this situation where it was loud and not necessarily everybody was
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organized and there was just food everywhere that you can't touch right now.
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Not to mention that by the end of it, we've all had four cups of wine,
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which you have to chug. Again, it's a ritual.
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We could talk about it another time.
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So the social lubricant is just there and then people become come touchy. It's a whole thing.
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So we figured we already were discussing talking about social situations,
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but we thought that this would be a good time.
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It's a great opportunity to, as Lea said, segue into the idea of neurodivergence,
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neurodiversity when it comes to social interactions.
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It's one of those stereotypes that when you talk to somebody and discuss the
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fact that you're are autistic,
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one of the things that is often associated with autism and other neurodiversity
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is difficulty in social situations.
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Yeah. So let's talk about that.
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Let's talk about navigating social situations as a couple. For sure.
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What does that look like for you?
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So the way it generally works in social situations...
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When Leah and I go out and if we have to interact with a lot of people,
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or if we're going to see friends,
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or if we're going to a large gathering where there's going to be a lot of people,
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particularly people that we don't necessarily know that well,
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I kind of wear Leah as a form of armor.
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And I will attempt to social as much as I possibly can.
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And then sort of when I feel a bit overwhelmed, I will sort of tag out.
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He does this really adorable thing where I'm, I don't know, I'm about four inches
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shorter than him and he can move me around sort of at will.
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So he'll do this thing where he'll talk to people for a couple of minutes and
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then he'll just sort of grab me and literally place me in front of him and say,
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so anyway, here's my wife,
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and that's my cue to start talking, because I have a much bigger threshold for
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social interaction than he does.
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But the nature of these sorts of gatherings, and especially in the Jewish community,
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is there's very different roles that men and women often play.
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Let's talk about that. I can't always be there. There are times,
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ritualistically, where there's literally a wall in between us,
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where I'm on my side with all the women and our daughter, and he's on his side
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either alone or with Avram, who's not much help in social situations.
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Yeah, so the wall that you're referring to is a mechitza, and it's often found
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in a lot of Orthodox Jewish synagogues.
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And if you go, like here in Israel, if you go to the Kotel, to the Western Wall,
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or really any religious site that we've been,
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particularly one that's quite religious, which if you know anything about Jerusalem,
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it's kind of, it's hard not to find
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a Jewish site here that's not like the holiest site in all of the world.
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Unless you're extremely liberal, which doesn't really happen here,
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there's always some kind of a separation.
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So the women will sit up higher and the men will sit down lower,
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or women will sit on one side and the men will sit on the other side.
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The thing that we don't subscribe to is when we're looking for a synagogue,
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is sometimes the women will be in a small little sort of bullpen enclosed area
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and the men will have the rest of the area.
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If that's what's happening, we don't go there.
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It's a really interesting, at least to me, and it's also a really involved topic.
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And if there's enough interest, I would absolutely love to get into our experience
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because there's a lot of different nuances to our upbringing and to the different
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forms of Orthodox Judaism.
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But for the purposes of this episode and this podcast, what I will say is because
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of the different roles and because of the mechitzah or the dividing wall,
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the expectation is not only that men and women are kept separate,
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but that they interact with each other. Right.
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So Moshe or men will often be touching Moshe or clapping him on the back or
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clapping him on the shoulder or wanting to talk to him when he's not wanting to.
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And I can see this from the other side because we can sort of see through,
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but there's nothing I can really do about it.
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Yeah, it's unfortunately something, or fortunately, depending on how you see
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it, but it's something that I've had to learn to adapt to over time.
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Because if you are a neurodivergent and you exist in, I'll use the N word here,
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if you exist in the normal world, that can be a...
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You scared me there for a second. That can be a t-shirt actually, maybe.
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But if you want to exist in the normal world and function as a normal person,
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then the expectation is that you're going to interact because it's absolutely
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acceptable, at least as far as we're concerned.
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And if you are the kind of person who just wants to be on his own and not interact
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with anybody and just do whatever you do and then avoid talking,
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but I'm not one of those people.
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I've always been a bit of a contradiction that way.
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So when I'm on the men's side, or particularly when I want to attend a service
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outside of the standard family services where Leah is not there,
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or the kids are not there, and I'm essentially on my own.
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Then I've had to learn to adapt to carrying on basic social interactions.
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And it's a challenge, and it's definitely a challenge that I'd love to discuss,
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because this episode is particularly about navigating social situations.
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So for us, another thing that's important to understand for us,
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and that's a challenge for people like Moshe sometimes,
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is that in our, it's not really religion, in our society, let's say,
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because Judaism isn't everything, right?
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It's a society, it's a people. In our society, it's absolutely acceptable to
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show extreme touch and affection between same-gender people,
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because a lot of it does have to do with separation between men and women,
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and you're not going to touch somebody of the opposite gender that you're not related to, right?
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So on my end, the women hug a lot and sort of touch each other a lot and say
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nice things to each other, dance together.
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And on the men's side, it's very much the same, except maybe less hugging and
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more sort of like, hey, bro, punch him on the... There's a lot of...
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There's a lot of physical affection between same-gender people that you won't
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find necessarily in other social situations.
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Different religious communities have different expectations of social interaction
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and different expectations of social contact.
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Our experience with Jews is that we're
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or being in the Jewish community, is that there is a lot of physical touching
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happening, whether you're shaking each other's hands, or you're slapping each
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other on the shoulder as a greeting, or you're dancing.
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One of the things that I've had to adapt to, the more religious I became,
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was the fact that Jewish men love to dance.
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They're always ripping him out of his seat when he doesn't want to and making
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him dance around. And I'm very much about, I'm one of those people that sort
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of sits there like, don't look at me, don't look at me, don't look at me,
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because if I make eye contact, you're going to ask me to dance.
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And then eventually I get cajoled enough by Leah and Raya and possibly other
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men in the community where they'll grab me or they'll like look at me and like,
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come on. And you don't want to be rude.
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I mean, maybe you do, but I don't want to be rude. So, of course,
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I always submit to the dance.
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And for me, any kind of social interaction, especially someone that I don't
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know particularly well or someone who I don't trust, and trust is a big thing
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that we've talked about in past episodes.
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If I don't trust you, it's hard for me to interact with you and sustain.
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And we're talking about things like eye contact, physical touch.
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I can tolerate physical touch and close contact with people a lot more with
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people that I trust and that I have a relatively good relationship with versus
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somebody who I don't know very well.
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Well, and the expectation is it's this holiday, so we're all going to get up
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and dance, and you're expected to take part in it, even though we've had maybe
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a whole conversation over the last three or four months.
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Right. I kind of want to go off on a little tangent, and then I'm going to bring
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us back to the subject, actually.
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So it's a very interesting thing for us because we also have become more religious
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together as you've been together as adults.
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But we also grew up together in a
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much less strict society back in north america and
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all of my friends know him
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right all of my friends from back then which i've kept friends for a long time
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in that neck of the woods know him as sort of like you know my boyfriend from
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back then and he would interact with them and he would hug that like girls right
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so girls who are now women and he He would hug them and he would interact with
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them. He would touch them, whatever.
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And as he got older, he's in particularly really uncomfortable with touching
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women that he's not related to.
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So when we were back in Montreal, because my mom was ill and I saw all my girlfriends
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from back then, what happened?
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They all wanted to hug me and touch me and show the same level of interaction
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and affection that they had grown accustomed to when it came to me.
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And some took it better than others. Some took it personally,
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which was definitely a concern of mine.
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But it was a journey for me, too, because this was relatively new information.
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Because everyone who knew me before we went back to Montreal either knew me
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as not that religious or they knew me as I was religious.
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So they knew better than to ask me to do things that I didn't feel like doing.
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And I was not as forthright with my feelings.
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And I still felt that I needed to accommodate. Which over time,
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and with a lot of help from Leah,
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I've actually become more able to vocalize my feelings and not be uncomfortable
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in saying, I'm sorry, I don't touch or I don't hug members of the other gender.
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But it was very hard because when we were all teenagers or even younger,
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he used to hug my girlfriends all the time. Yes.
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And for that, we're talking an awful lot about religion in this episode.
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For that- It's hard not to. It was-
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I mean, why not? It's part of the whole thing. For that, it was hard for me.
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Because as an autistic, and again, one autistic, not trying to speak for everyone,
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I have a hard time with illogical things.
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And I was feeling, I am now religious,
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I don't feel comfortable physically touching other members of,
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you know, other women who are not related to me, like my daughter or my wife or my relatives.
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And I used to before, so is it fair?
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Is it fair for me to now tell these people, no, I don't want to?
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And if you can believe it or not, that was a topic of conversation between us privately a lot.
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And ultimately what I had to convince him is that it's absolutely fair,
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but you also have to really very much be honest about your boundaries now and
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not sort of whiffle and whiffle waffle about it.
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Right. Because my friends weren't actually doing anything wrong.
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They were just interacting with you the way that they were used to.
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I mean, there were some that took it a bit more personally than others.
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But for the most part, it really does have to be inconsistent behavioral change.
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And we discussed, now we're really getting into religion.
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We discussed the comparison between the concept that we were discussing,
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which, in case you're interested, it's called Shomer Negev,
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and the idea of kashrut, especially in the context of someone who was secular
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and decided to become religious later on, which we call Baal Tshuva or Choser B'tshuva.
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Again, irrelevant to the topic of today's episode, but it's mostly just fun
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facts. And what I gained from that, which applied in this situation, is that.
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If you were in a past life, the kind of person who didn't mind eating non-kosher
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or you didn't mind some contact with members of the other sex,
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then it's actually kind of a higher level of holiness, if you want to consider
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it that way, that you're now taking on for yourself the idea that you don't do this anymore. more.
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More so, one would argue, than somebody who was raised this way forever,
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and this is basically what they know.
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Of course I don't shake hands with a woman. I've never done it.
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Versus, yes, you're absolutely right. Several years ago when I saw you, I would give you a hug,
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but I don't feel comfortable doing it anymore, and that's something that's very
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important to me because I'm taking that on myself.
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Right, so I'm going to drive us back into the whole idea of a social situation.
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And yes, that's based in religion. It's hard to separate us from our religion at this point.
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However, that is an example of navigating a social situation appropriately versus
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inappropriately, especially a difficult social situation.
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So we've discussed about navigating as a couple, where I'm there sort of to
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be sounding board or provide guidance or stand in the way if I have to.
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You, we've gotten to the point now where I can sort of read Moshe and I know what I have to say.
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I just have to decide if it's appropriate to say it or not.
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And sometimes I won't. Sometimes I'll still let him deal with it because it's
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not appropriate for me to interfere like he's a four-year-old.
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But sometimes it is. It depends.
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And he's talked about sort of navigating social situations on his own,
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though it would be probably interesting for the listeners to know some of the
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the techniques you use when you're on loan to navigate a social situation?
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Because to be honest, I'm not there, so I don't know.
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So, men, or at least the men that I typically associate with,
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and again, this is purely in a religious setting.
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Of course, it differs based on the settings that I'm currently in,
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are very much on an intimate level.
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The men that pray together feel a kinship, which makes a lot of sense, and a lot of them know me.
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And often whiskey is involved, and then they feel even closer, which is true.
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Absolutely. So when I am in that setting, and only this setting because there's
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different scripts for other settings, but when I'm in this setting,
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I've already accepted that there are going to be some people that will come
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up to me and interact with me.
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And in fact, it's almost preferred on my part if they do, because I don't want
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to be seen as rude or standoffish, even though I obviously am.
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But it's part of the nature of who I want to be.
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And it really is about a script, especially if it's someone that I don't know
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very well or that I don't necessarily even, I don't want to say I don't like,
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but I'm not comfortable with.
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And it kind of goes like this.
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A person will come up to me and they'll say hi.
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And I will try to make as much eye contact with them as possible because that's
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the socially accepted response for acknowledging a person's presence.
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And I will respond with a greeting. If they engage me in small talk, which I dislike.
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Greatly. Greatly. He's underselling how much he dislikes small talk.
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I'm a very direct person, so small talk is not necessarily my favorite thing,
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of course. Do not talk to Moshe about the weather. Don't do it.
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I'll say the weather's fine. What do you want? And...
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They'll say, hey, how's it going? They don't care. They don't care how's it going.
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And if I try to tell them how's it going, they don't want to hear it.
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So I'll go, it's great. It's fine.
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How's it going with you? So, I'll try to mirror them in that sense.
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If they ask me a question, I'll give an answer and give them a similar question
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to indicate that I am now connected with them in a social interaction and we
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are now interacting socially.
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And I will let them do most of the talking and most of the time that will be fine.
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And if they ask me questions, I will respond. But essentially,
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it is a matter of engaging as much as possible without trying to come across
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as disinterested or rude.
303
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And I've developed certain techniques for that.
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The old adage is that if you have trouble making eye contact,
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stare at their forehead or stare at their nose.
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If they're not paying super strong attention to it, it'll look relatively similar. A lot of nodding.
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Sometimes I nod a lot when people are talking to me.
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And it is something that I learned over time that if someone is talking to you,
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if you nod periodically, it demonstrates that you're paying attention.
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And sometimes you are, sometimes you're not. I actually do that even when I'm
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not engaged in a one-on-one conversation.
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Sometimes, sometimes someone will be talking to a room and I'll like instinctively
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just start nodding just because I, oh, talking is happening.
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I must nod to acknowledge I'm listening so I don't get called out.
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Got it. And then if I feel overwhelmed and Leah's not there to like throw me
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a life preserver, then I will attempt to issue a statement attempting to exit
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from the social interaction.
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Which has to not be, okay, so what Moshe is talking about doing is, I'm done now, bye.
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And he's the Lord, but he can't do that either. I'm leaving.
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And I've learned some just based on my experience. Like, well, it's nice to see you.
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As in, you know, you hear the music and people are exiting stage left. Yeah.
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Or I'd love to stay a little longer and chat, but I do have to go.
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Or, you know, my wife is expecting me at home. Or I have to get the kids from the thing.
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And if I'm not there for the thing, then the thing is not going to happen.
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Like, things are happening.
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And I have to be present to remove someone from a thing. Exactly.
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So that segues again back into we discussed being your partner's social armor
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a little bit. Yes. But let's talk about what that means.
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So here it says when you're your partner's social arm. I figure that that's a subject for me.
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What that feels like to me and what that looks like to me is very interesting
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because I am handling my own social situations, right?
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So I'm talking to people and I'm interacting and I'm discussing.
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But at the same time, I'm also watching for him to look for signs of actual distress.
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Like, if he's just a little uncomfortable, I'll leave him there because he has to practice.
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It's important for me, and I welcome the ability to be uncomfortable,
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which as we discussed in also past episodes, you don't want to accommodate too much.
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And we'll definitely get into the different types of accommodation and what's
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helpful and what's not helpful accommodation. So what he described as a typical
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social interaction is something that I'm absolutely used to.
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And I will do the whole, hi, nice to see you. How are you anyway?
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How are the kids? Okay, I got to go thing automatically. And it doesn't bother me.
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Whereas Moshe, he says it feels so fake. And I've explained it's absolutely
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fake, but it's fake for the concept of being nice.
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Exactly. For making the person feel heard and understood.
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And then you can control the situation and exit it when you're ready to.
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And that is why I'm a very good social man for Osher.
347
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Again, he's just like, you seem to have an unlimited ability to social,
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which I don't, but I have a lot more than you do.
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So when he's done socialing, he's just like, have you met my wife?
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Meet me, you know, how I like to live. it's it's
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kind of like i compare it to that that scene from indiana jones
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where you know you you kind of deftly
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substitute the the the stat you know the
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little idol from the bag of sand and then
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you just kind of walk away with it i i'll like start a social interaction and
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then i'll be like yeah that's that's you know you remember that happened to
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us right and she'll start talking and i'll be like tiptoe backwards and then
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before you know it i'm no longer part of the interaction and And she's the one
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doing the talking. And I've escaped.
360
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And I quite often don't have a boulder rolling after me.
361
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Sometimes. Sometimes, yes. But yeah, it's very interesting.
362
00:26:18,595 --> 00:26:22,155
And there have been times concept because it is much better than you say,
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I have to leave now or I have to pee or something like that.
364
00:26:26,435 --> 00:26:31,635
Yes. And there have been times that I, I would try to,
365
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to be your armor because I like to practice sometimes and you'll be involved
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in a social interaction and I'll just kind of walk up and be like, hi,
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I'm here now. Now what's, what's happening.
368
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And in, in that instance, I'm, I'm not so much, you know, you're,
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you're, you're knight in shining armor.
370
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I'm, I'm kind of your, you know, squire in crumpled tinfoil.
371
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I'm actually thinking of one situation where I had told you,
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I wasn't really sure about one of the women that I was interacting with.
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So when you saw her with me and talking, you came up to me and you went, everything okay?
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And she literally looked at you and said, Moshe, she's fine. Go away. Yes.
375
00:27:15,055 --> 00:27:18,035
So, you know, sometimes it works, I guess, and sometimes it doesn't.
376
00:27:18,055 --> 00:27:21,695
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but I have to have more in my repertoire in order to save you.
377
00:27:22,955 --> 00:27:27,035
Not that you need to be saved very often. It's okay. I'm one of those princesses
378
00:27:27,035 --> 00:27:28,375
that saves themselves from the tower.
379
00:27:28,975 --> 00:27:35,515
Yes, you'll rescue yourself, you'll slay the dragon, and I'll make excuses about
380
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how I could have done it if I really wanted to be a part of it.
381
00:27:40,155 --> 00:27:47,135
Yeah. So, the nature of social interactions when it comes to neurodivergence
382
00:27:47,135 --> 00:27:49,775
is an interesting topic unto itself.
383
00:27:49,775 --> 00:27:52,915
And when you have multiple,
384
00:27:53,175 --> 00:27:58,595
when you have multiple, the nature of social interactions, when you have multiple
385
00:27:58,595 --> 00:28:05,615
levels of neurodivergence or autistics is complicated because,
386
00:28:05,675 --> 00:28:07,435
of course, we're not monolithic.
387
00:28:07,755 --> 00:28:13,355
So my challenges with social interactions are different than Avram's.
388
00:28:13,355 --> 00:28:16,235
Right so also often i'm doing all that stuff right
389
00:28:16,235 --> 00:28:18,895
maintaining my own social interactions with women that i've made
390
00:28:18,895 --> 00:28:22,135
friends with watching for your social interactions and if
391
00:28:22,135 --> 00:28:25,255
avram's there that's a whole other level is he
392
00:28:25,255 --> 00:28:28,755
doing inappropriate things is he running around are his pants pulled up is he
393
00:28:28,755 --> 00:28:33,315
eating something he's not supposed to did he get into the wine so that is often
394
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what a social interaction will look like for me we don't mention raya our daughter
395
00:28:37,455 --> 00:28:41,675
a lot because she's essentially an angel like she just she's like one of those
396
00:28:41,675 --> 00:28:43,495
self-raising chia kids i I guess.
397
00:28:44,395 --> 00:28:47,395
But I mean, she's also present and she's wonderful.
398
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And I mean, obviously she has her own challenges, but she is for the most part.
399
00:28:55,075 --> 00:29:00,755
Okay. As far as this type of thing goes, although she does have a number of,
400
00:29:00,775 --> 00:29:05,115
of her own challenges socially, which she is what people would have historically
401
00:29:05,115 --> 00:29:08,735
called painfully shy, painfully shy. Yeah. Yes.
402
00:29:09,275 --> 00:29:12,015
And we, we haven't quite figured out why, why
403
00:29:12,015 --> 00:29:14,855
or if it has if it's just her personality or if
404
00:29:14,855 --> 00:29:18,615
it has something to do with some kind of neurodivergency and we very much like
405
00:29:18,615 --> 00:29:22,815
raya to be a part of the podcast at some point because she's definitely offered
406
00:29:22,815 --> 00:29:27,615
to to be like a guest which would be i think a lot of fun i don't know what
407
00:29:27,615 --> 00:29:32,155
she would talk about but i'm sure it would be interesting and of course avran would just.
408
00:29:33,255 --> 00:29:38,975
Would be would be interesting for sure so the nature of social interactions
409
00:29:38,975 --> 00:29:41,435
as far as neurodivergency goes,
410
00:29:41,655 --> 00:29:46,135
like I said, it's one of the most common things that you often find when you're
411
00:29:46,135 --> 00:29:49,655
describing somebody who is autistic or somebody who's neurodivergent or somebody
412
00:29:49,655 --> 00:29:53,815
who is a little bit different in that respect.
413
00:29:54,115 --> 00:29:59,275
Because along with some of the other challenges that neurodivergence often have,
414
00:29:59,515 --> 00:30:02,415
there come a lot of social challenges.
415
00:30:03,135 --> 00:30:11,155
Some of them are contradictory because you'll have neurodivergents who are excessively
416
00:30:11,155 --> 00:30:16,295
isolating and would go on their own and just do their own thing.
417
00:30:16,375 --> 00:30:20,135
And then you have neurodivergents who are very...
418
00:30:21,206 --> 00:30:26,566
Very social, completely uncontrolled social, like go out to random strangers
419
00:30:26,566 --> 00:30:29,086
and hug them kind of social. Avram is one of those.
420
00:30:29,306 --> 00:30:33,406
You've brought it up many times. He's very popular, and he also has a lot of
421
00:30:33,406 --> 00:30:34,826
capacity for social interaction.
422
00:30:35,486 --> 00:30:40,266
But it's often inappropriate, where he'll go up to strangers on the street and talk to them.
423
00:30:40,506 --> 00:30:44,906
Or when he has a friend, he will spend every waking moment he has with that
424
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friend and not give him a break.
425
00:30:46,446 --> 00:30:50,406
Or, you know, just tell people inappropriate things that he doesn't need to
426
00:30:50,406 --> 00:30:51,446
say to them, etc. et cetera.
427
00:30:52,166 --> 00:30:58,826
Because socializing is kind of like a dance. It has clear steps that people expect.
428
00:30:59,046 --> 00:31:02,226
It has a strong middle as well as a beginning and an end.
429
00:31:02,746 --> 00:31:06,326
Whereas neurotypical person like me won't necessarily see that.
430
00:31:06,386 --> 00:31:09,526
I'm just talking to people, interacting with people and living my life.
431
00:31:09,706 --> 00:31:12,786
When you don't understand a thing, you sort of have to study it.
432
00:31:12,866 --> 00:31:17,666
And that's where I guess Moshe comes up with these techniques and theories that he has.
433
00:31:18,346 --> 00:31:24,546
I have a really interesting relationship with time, as has been mentioned before.
434
00:31:24,786 --> 00:31:29,126
And I'm particularly interested in the concept of beginnings.
435
00:31:29,446 --> 00:31:32,406
Transitions, and ends, and where those fit in.
436
00:31:32,546 --> 00:31:38,966
And my struggles with those particular things has resulted in some really interesting interactions,
437
00:31:39,206 --> 00:31:45,746
because I'm forever trying to understand how to start things,
438
00:31:45,886 --> 00:31:49,206
how to end things, and how to transition between things. Oh, yes.
439
00:31:49,446 --> 00:31:55,106
So, this is actually a subject for a much different podcast that we're not going
440
00:31:55,106 --> 00:32:00,126
to really get into, but intimacy is really interesting when it comes to that. Yes.
441
00:32:00,326 --> 00:32:07,246
And the idea of intimacy actually, for me, works very similar to the idea of
442
00:32:07,246 --> 00:32:13,786
socializing, where I will engage in a conversation to the extent that I feel,
443
00:32:13,886 --> 00:32:16,026
in my own mind, has been sufficient.
444
00:32:16,026 --> 00:32:22,506
And then when it's in my mind again, at an end, I'll just end it.
445
00:32:22,586 --> 00:32:28,966
And if I can't think of a way of ending it, I will just walk away.
446
00:32:28,966 --> 00:32:33,906
The idea of the outro of our podcast,
447
00:32:34,206 --> 00:32:42,426
actually, is hinged on the fact that myself and obviously other neurodivergents
448
00:32:42,426 --> 00:32:46,046
struggle with ending social interactions.
449
00:32:46,126 --> 00:32:49,126
So, if they can't think of a...
450
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:57,600
Comfortable transition they'll just kind of walk away and just sort of hope that nobody notices.
451
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,740
Where you'll be in the middle of a conversation and you'll
452
00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:08,000
just kind of start going toward the door and usually that that usually they'll
453
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,520
just kind of be like okay bye i guess when it's a social interaction it's one
454
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,860
thing when it's in a romantic interaction it's very different And we're going
455
00:33:17,860 --> 00:33:20,740
to have probably multiple episodes of that.
456
00:33:21,060 --> 00:33:23,840
Yes. So transitions, very important.
457
00:33:24,380 --> 00:33:31,260
And we can discuss the idea of a social battery that comes up a lot.
458
00:33:31,660 --> 00:33:35,520
It's a foreign concept to a lot of people, but for neurodivergence,
459
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,680
again, this is without any concept of if there are studies or if this is a real thing or not.
460
00:33:40,780 --> 00:33:43,240
But I've always had what I consider a social battery.
461
00:33:43,420 --> 00:33:47,960
Sometimes it's 100%, sometimes it's 50%, sometimes it's 25%,
462
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,160
and it can vary based on a number of external and internal factors.
463
00:33:52,180 --> 00:33:55,320
Right. What happens if we let the social battery get to zero, though?
464
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,840
If we let the social battery get to zero, then I need to recharge.
465
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,640
For me, recharging involves one of two things. Either I need time by myself
466
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,580
to just shut my brain off to to the extent that I'm able to,
467
00:34:08,660 --> 00:34:12,480
or I can hook myself up to a fast charger,
468
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,800
which is you, actually, where if I feel like I'm overwhelmed,
469
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:19,360
I just have to spend some time with Leah.
470
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:27,260
And not that kind of time, but just being with her, being talking to her,
471
00:34:28,060 --> 00:34:29,560
just being in her presence.
472
00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:34,080
And I find that that will bring my social battery up. And it'll kind of look
473
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:39,980
like I spent the morning at this event, or alternatively, I woke up in a relatively,
474
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,780
I don't know, we'll say bad mood. I don't like that term, but whatever.
475
00:34:44,140 --> 00:34:47,240
And so therefore, I'm already starting with a low social battery.
476
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:50,080
And what leah will do where she'll
477
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,780
say all right well we have to go to this thing tonight where there's
478
00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:55,560
going to be a lot of people so why don't we spend a
479
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,420
couple of hours just kind of talking and and and i
480
00:34:58,420 --> 00:35:01,420
can like put my arm around you or whatever and get you
481
00:35:01,420 --> 00:35:06,780
to the point where we can go and you'll you'll be able to it'll often be one
482
00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:11,100
of our ideas sometimes you'll come up with it too you say can you just hold
483
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:14,900
me for a while and i'll know what that means or i'll say why don't you come
484
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:19,540
lie down and i'll rub you for a while again not in that way but physical touch is important.
485
00:35:21,090 --> 00:35:23,850
If we make any more innuendos, we're going to have to put an explicit content
486
00:35:23,850 --> 00:35:24,930
warning on this episode.
487
00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:32,230
Just kidding. No, we're not going to do that. So the nature of communicating
488
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:35,230
your needs is applicable.
489
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:40,490
This is why we said the first and the second episode of this podcast was that communication,
490
00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:44,510
while we're going to do individual episodes focused on that,
491
00:35:44,590 --> 00:35:50,890
but communication is going to sort of be woven throughout the whole range.
492
00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:56,990
And really, there's no topic that we're going to discuss in however long this
493
00:35:56,990 --> 00:36:02,570
goes on for, hopefully forever, that doesn't have something to do with communication.
494
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:08,330
Yes, but verbal communication, physical communication, unspoken communication.
495
00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:14,230
There's so many different types of communication. Right. And part of who I am,
496
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:17,070
and this came like over time
497
00:36:17,070 --> 00:36:21,590
was number one identifying my strengths
498
00:36:21,590 --> 00:36:24,450
and weaknesses when it comes to social interactions what i
499
00:36:24,450 --> 00:36:28,190
do good at what i don't do good at what i need to do in order to get through
500
00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:33,530
things what i need to do in order to feel better at things and that was a challenge
501
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:39,610
because for a long time i would just shut down and isolate and that would be
502
00:36:39,610 --> 00:36:42,550
it and so So we had to work on strategies,
503
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:44,730
Leigh and I, and I had to work on strategies myself.
504
00:36:45,370 --> 00:36:51,510
And it became a matter of, okay, so you're isolating yourself now.
505
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:56,570
What do you need from me to help you through this? But now what you've kind
506
00:36:56,570 --> 00:36:59,890
of done, knowingly or unknowingly, I don't know if you've done it on purpose,
507
00:37:00,110 --> 00:37:02,590
is you've kind of built this mystique around yourself.
508
00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:07,430
Instead of being, wow, he's rude and annoying and I don't understand him.
509
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:10,770
And it's like, wow, I wonder what he's so busy about all the time.
510
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:16,070
I wonder why he's so focused and quiet all the time. There must be something really going on here.
511
00:37:16,930 --> 00:37:19,770
It's honestly a much better picture of Pete for people.
512
00:37:20,289 --> 00:37:26,709
For sure. And this also goes into actually, I want to say, not the last episode,
513
00:37:26,789 --> 00:37:28,789
but the episode before that.
514
00:37:29,329 --> 00:37:33,209
We did an episode, which is actually very popular on YouTube right now,
515
00:37:33,229 --> 00:37:35,169
if you want to check it out, called Do We Creep You Out?
516
00:37:35,949 --> 00:37:40,289
And it's by far our most popular episode of this podcast, surprisingly.
517
00:37:40,769 --> 00:37:44,809
And it has a lot to do with the uncanny valley of autism.
518
00:37:45,029 --> 00:37:48,589
And we talked a lot in that episode. Check it out.
519
00:37:48,609 --> 00:37:52,129
It's available on all podcasting sites. sites on YouTube that have
520
00:37:52,129 --> 00:37:57,549
to do with why it looks really off-putting almost when an autistic person is
521
00:37:57,549 --> 00:38:10,129
really trying hard to human and why it's actually better if they sort of lean into their challenges,
522
00:38:10,569 --> 00:38:11,489
their neurodiversities.
523
00:38:11,549 --> 00:38:16,869
Because what you end up with is, okay, I'm in a social situation.
524
00:38:17,249 --> 00:38:20,649
I'm expected to behave a certain way. I have to look a certain way.
525
00:38:20,849 --> 00:38:25,289
And then you go up to them with this really creepy look on your face and go, hi, how are you?
526
00:38:25,489 --> 00:38:30,109
And they're like, whereas if you were just like, hi, how's it going?
527
00:38:30,889 --> 00:38:34,289
And maybe there'll be questions. Is there something wrong? No,
528
00:38:34,349 --> 00:38:35,669
he's actually autistic.
529
00:38:35,929 --> 00:38:39,769
So he sometimes struggles. People will never ask you the questions.
530
00:38:39,789 --> 00:38:42,209
What they'll do is they'll notice something and then And they'll come up to
531
00:38:42,209 --> 00:38:43,669
me and ask me the questions.
532
00:38:43,889 --> 00:38:48,549
Right. And it often goes something like, is there something like wrong with him?
533
00:38:48,909 --> 00:38:52,329
They'll use the R word a lot, which I think we've used enough for the first
534
00:38:52,329 --> 00:38:55,529
season. No, no, they don't ask me about the R word. That would just be rude.
535
00:38:55,749 --> 00:39:00,429
It often goes like, is something like wrong with him? Right.
536
00:39:01,129 --> 00:39:05,689
And it is, it does come up. Or is he okay? Okay.
537
00:39:06,507 --> 00:39:10,907
Is he okay? I've heard a lot of that. If there's something wrong with him or
538
00:39:10,907 --> 00:39:14,207
the more aggressive form is, what's wrong with him?
539
00:39:15,407 --> 00:39:19,527
And instead of just being like, oh, you know, he's having, he's tired and he's.
540
00:39:19,607 --> 00:39:23,227
No, I'm actually starting to explain it because when people ask you,
541
00:39:23,247 --> 00:39:26,307
especially adults ask you something, they want an answer. And that's the truth.
542
00:39:26,987 --> 00:39:32,027
Because by trying to, to hide your, uh, your neurodivergency or autism,
543
00:39:32,187 --> 00:39:36,167
as we've been taught to do, unfortunately in the past, in order to function.
544
00:39:36,507 --> 00:39:40,647
Because there is a certain level of functionality, right? Because you have to,
545
00:39:40,687 --> 00:39:44,187
we're going to get into, again, I'll bring it up again, but we're definitely
546
00:39:44,187 --> 00:39:45,167
going to have to discuss it.
547
00:39:45,207 --> 00:39:48,767
The concept of reasonable accommodation and unreasonable accommodation.
548
00:39:49,227 --> 00:39:55,067
And you have to accept reasonable accommodations, but it's unreasonable to expect
549
00:39:55,067 --> 00:40:00,387
somebody to just be rude, off-putting, arrogant, never wanting to interact with
550
00:40:00,387 --> 00:40:02,627
anyone and just shutting down conversations unless.
551
00:40:02,747 --> 00:40:07,547
Everybody to be okay with. You know, if you're like an eccentric billionaire
552
00:40:07,547 --> 00:40:17,247
who creates their own technology or whatever, then you can kind of be a little bit more off-putting.
553
00:40:17,247 --> 00:40:23,067
But if you're just a regular schmo like me, you kind of have to develop a baseline
554
00:40:23,067 --> 00:40:27,467
of, okay, so we're going to be at this place for a while and you're going to have to talk to people.
555
00:40:27,467 --> 00:40:31,547
But in order for me to become your armor in that way, like when people do notice
556
00:40:31,547 --> 00:40:33,647
the uncanny valley and go, what's wrong with him?
557
00:40:33,947 --> 00:40:37,887
I'd had to get over an interesting concept of my own, which was not wanting
558
00:40:37,887 --> 00:40:39,667
to out you without your permission.
559
00:40:40,407 --> 00:40:45,567
And the reality is, as you became more comfortable with your diagnosis and yourself
560
00:40:45,567 --> 00:40:49,227
and accepting yourself, that became less of a thing for me.
561
00:40:50,207 --> 00:40:55,887
It's really one of those things that we're told to do a certain thing,
562
00:40:56,027 --> 00:40:59,147
but it actually ends up harming us rather than helping us.
563
00:40:59,567 --> 00:41:05,827
Because as you would often tell me, like, why are you so ashamed of who you are?
564
00:41:05,967 --> 00:41:08,947
It's who you are. Like, just be you.
565
00:41:09,367 --> 00:41:12,667
Stop trying to be someone else because it's frankly kind of creepy.
566
00:41:12,827 --> 00:41:14,927
And just be yourself. Right.
567
00:41:15,127 --> 00:41:19,327
And if people don't like it, well, I guess that's their tough luck.
568
00:41:19,567 --> 00:41:22,707
Yeah, but there was a time where you would have been mortified if I had read
569
00:41:22,707 --> 00:41:24,307
you as autistic to other people.
570
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:29,407
And it's unfortunately one of those things that a lot of autistics struggle with,
571
00:41:29,587 --> 00:41:33,207
especially adult autistics, especially late diagnosed autistics,
572
00:41:33,327 --> 00:41:40,187
who kind of treat being autistic like, you know, it's something that we don't like talk about.
573
00:41:40,487 --> 00:41:45,547
Right. It's one of those things. Yes, because we were raised in a society where
574
00:41:45,547 --> 00:41:51,807
autism, again, equaled the R word, and it's not necessarily something that we're
575
00:41:51,807 --> 00:41:53,327
told that we can be proud of.
576
00:41:53,687 --> 00:42:00,047
Now, again, that having been said, you don't want to...
577
00:42:00,890 --> 00:42:06,410
Be unreasonably demanding accommodations because certain things are accepting
578
00:42:06,410 --> 00:42:10,050
and certain things are not accepting and certain things are reasonable and certain
579
00:42:10,050 --> 00:42:11,430
things are not reasonable.
580
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:18,770
Going into a room where there's a lot of people and staying in one side of the
581
00:42:18,770 --> 00:42:22,730
room and letting people approach you and asking for,
582
00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:28,890
you know, certain allowances based on your own sensibilities is reasonable,
583
00:42:29,150 --> 00:42:34,690
demanding that everyone, you know, lower their volume and turn the lights in the room down.
584
00:42:35,050 --> 00:42:39,630
And each interaction that they have with you has to be a maximum of five minutes
585
00:42:39,630 --> 00:42:41,410
because that's as much as I can handle.
586
00:42:41,550 --> 00:42:46,370
Right. Again, then you're getting onto rich, you know. You're not the king of the world.
587
00:42:46,490 --> 00:42:50,030
You're just Moshe. Like, you don't get to tell people to turn the lights down
588
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:53,330
so you can make a grand entrance and feel comfortable.
589
00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:58,110
Exactly. You know. So I'm going to segue us into another subject that's really
590
00:42:58,110 --> 00:43:00,310
interesting because, as always, we're running out of time.
591
00:43:00,550 --> 00:43:04,810
We never seem to have enough time. Again, time is an interesting concept in our relationship.
592
00:43:05,070 --> 00:43:08,150
We're going to do an episode just on time, and I guarantee you that episode's
593
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:09,630
going to run over time, too. Right.
594
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:15,710
So I'm going to segue us into a different thing. So Moshe has this thing,
595
00:43:15,810 --> 00:43:20,350
and I haven't done research or anything, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of
596
00:43:20,350 --> 00:43:22,450
autistics have this thing where they have a person.
597
00:43:22,750 --> 00:43:27,670
And that person is their person. It's their one person, and it's a security
598
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:32,610
person, and how dare that person not be available for them at all times when they need them?
599
00:43:33,070 --> 00:43:37,710
So what I want to discuss is how to deal with when your partner wants you to
600
00:43:37,710 --> 00:43:41,890
themselves all the time, but you have other responsibilities.
601
00:43:43,810 --> 00:43:45,830
Yes, and it's...
602
00:43:46,693 --> 00:43:51,233
It's very challenging in our circumstances because we did spend far too much
603
00:43:51,233 --> 00:43:53,113
of our life away from each other.
604
00:43:53,493 --> 00:43:58,093
So there's also the sense of, hey, you know what? You got to live your life
605
00:43:58,093 --> 00:44:00,013
away from me. Now I get to have you.
606
00:44:00,173 --> 00:44:03,573
Right. I feel that way too, but in a more reasonable level. Right.
607
00:44:03,913 --> 00:44:13,913
And a lot of it really does have to go with the concept of trust and comfort in autism.
608
00:44:13,913 --> 00:44:19,093
Autism and autistics often, and I say often, cause again, one autistic,
609
00:44:19,353 --> 00:44:26,733
they often have hyper focuses that are related to either an idea or an object
610
00:44:26,733 --> 00:44:30,793
or a place or a type of thing,
611
00:44:30,873 --> 00:44:34,593
but it's actually a relatively, I don't know.
612
00:44:34,633 --> 00:44:37,633
I don't even know if it's common or uncommon. I can't say for sure.
613
00:44:37,873 --> 00:44:41,113
We'd have to actually talk to other autistics and they'd have to be honest.
614
00:44:41,893 --> 00:44:45,033
But a lot of the time, it can end up being a person.
615
00:44:45,373 --> 00:44:50,573
And when an autistic forms a hyperfocus on a person, it can be a very healthy thing.
616
00:44:50,693 --> 00:44:55,493
Because instead of clinging to something that would not necessarily be,
617
00:44:55,633 --> 00:45:03,193
you know, socially acceptable or possible, you sort of have carrying around
618
00:45:03,193 --> 00:45:05,653
a swish mellow because I like to squeeze it and whatever.
619
00:45:05,973 --> 00:45:09,973
I was the kind of person that always wanted to be in a relationship.
620
00:45:09,973 --> 00:45:17,273
And I was the kind of person who always wanted to have someone who I could depend on,
621
00:45:17,333 --> 00:45:21,653
because one of my challenges was that I never really had too many people in
622
00:45:21,653 --> 00:45:24,993
my life that I could 100% trust.
623
00:45:25,413 --> 00:45:30,553
And Leah has spent decades actually working on developing that trust in me,
624
00:45:30,673 --> 00:45:34,433
and to the extent that we had a lot of...
625
00:45:35,117 --> 00:45:38,297
Things to work through at the latest incarnation of our relationship,
626
00:45:38,597 --> 00:45:42,797
what we developed is very, very close bond.
627
00:45:43,317 --> 00:45:48,977
And that's why when I say something like I need to lie down or I need to be
628
00:45:48,977 --> 00:45:53,797
alone or I need to, I'm overstimulated, I need to be away from all of this.
629
00:45:54,617 --> 00:46:01,777
My expectation is either that that either involves Leah or that it can easily
630
00:46:01,777 --> 00:46:07,897
include Leah and she becomes sort of the background for me, or actually will suit it.
631
00:46:08,017 --> 00:46:13,937
And when I'm away from Leah, a lot of the time I feel anxious and uncomfortable.
632
00:46:14,597 --> 00:46:18,257
Which you could argue is my natural state a lot of the time,
633
00:46:18,257 --> 00:46:20,457
but it's not as much as it used to be.
634
00:46:20,837 --> 00:46:25,977
But it is, when you have that security blanket, when you have that squishmallow,
635
00:46:26,137 --> 00:46:32,117
when you have that, you know, toy or that thing that you like like to cling
636
00:46:32,117 --> 00:46:37,277
to and hold that makes you feel safe and that thing happens to be a person.
637
00:46:37,937 --> 00:46:42,417
Then you you need to discover that
638
00:46:42,417 --> 00:46:45,117
they they have they're not like
639
00:46:45,117 --> 00:46:48,177
a squish mellow you can squish the squish mellow and it's not going to be like
640
00:46:48,177 --> 00:46:52,197
hey you know what i i gotta go we have literally had some conversations where
641
00:46:52,197 --> 00:46:55,697
i'm like do you know that i'm also a person with thoughts and feelings i need
642
00:46:55,697 --> 00:47:01,797
and you're like oh yeah like i knew it but i know it know it yes so So let's
643
00:47:01,797 --> 00:47:03,197
talk about that. Let's take a step back.
644
00:47:03,816 --> 00:47:07,396
And that's also a really interesting thing in and of itself.
645
00:47:07,696 --> 00:47:13,596
Sort of the, we talked about empathy and all that stuff, but people in general
646
00:47:13,596 --> 00:47:16,276
tend to be the main character in their own life.
647
00:47:16,456 --> 00:47:20,696
And for autistics, I think that's just a little bit more intense in terms of
648
00:47:20,696 --> 00:47:23,616
they don't even necessarily understand that the other characters have their
649
00:47:23,616 --> 00:47:25,956
own character arcs, let's say.
650
00:47:26,396 --> 00:47:31,516
And that's been difficult. But also another thing, the way it will look often
651
00:47:31,516 --> 00:47:38,696
is that Moshe just wants time to me or with me to himself and doesn't want other people interacting.
652
00:47:38,776 --> 00:47:42,076
The issue with that is that we have a family and we have children and we have
653
00:47:42,076 --> 00:47:44,136
friends and we have other responsibilities.
654
00:47:44,616 --> 00:47:48,176
So what does that look like? To me, often it looks like compromise.
655
00:47:48,896 --> 00:47:54,316
So it really definitely does have to look like compromise because Leigh and
656
00:47:54,316 --> 00:47:59,116
I have a really interesting relationship because in, again,
657
00:47:59,476 --> 00:48:04,016
I'll use the N word here, in a normal cupper, we're going to leave that one
658
00:48:04,016 --> 00:48:05,536
in. We're going to leave that in.
659
00:48:06,396 --> 00:48:11,496
In a normal couple, cupper. We're going to put that one on a t-shirt.
660
00:48:11,496 --> 00:48:13,376
You're such a cute cupper. We're a great cupper.
661
00:48:15,216 --> 00:48:18,576
That's definitely going on a t-shirt. So, in a normal couple,
662
00:48:19,036 --> 00:48:23,376
you have one partner has their interest and one partner has their interests
663
00:48:23,376 --> 00:48:27,776
and then they have couple interests and sometimes they're together and sometimes
664
00:48:27,776 --> 00:48:31,856
they're apart and they have their lives and they just kind of live them.
665
00:48:31,996 --> 00:48:36,656
And unless you're in like a codependent relationship or an abusive relationship,
666
00:48:37,116 --> 00:48:42,516
you generally allow for the independence of each person to be their own entity
667
00:48:42,516 --> 00:48:45,536
that allows them to live their life separate from the other.
668
00:48:45,536 --> 00:48:53,776
But it's not an exaggeration to say that I am never tired of being around Leah
669
00:48:53,776 --> 00:49:00,896
and there's actually no thing that I could do that requires me to not be with her.
670
00:49:01,647 --> 00:49:08,067
And for me, that's got a positive and a negative because when I.
671
00:49:08,967 --> 00:49:13,887
Okay, so if you have a hyper focus on trains, again, I'm stereotyping here and
672
00:49:13,887 --> 00:49:15,847
I'm very sorry if your hyper focus is on trains.
673
00:49:16,027 --> 00:49:19,807
Trains are very fascinating and it's not my particular focus,
674
00:49:19,887 --> 00:49:23,547
but we can definitely have a conversation about trains if you want to.
675
00:49:23,767 --> 00:49:28,267
But if you have a hyper focus on trains and you constantly talk about trains
676
00:49:28,267 --> 00:49:35,007
and all you do is say, I want trains. You know about the Amtrak 742 has an engine
677
00:49:35,007 --> 00:49:36,467
that's like two kilometers.
678
00:49:36,707 --> 00:49:43,887
Anyway, the problem with that is eventually you end up in a situation where
679
00:49:43,887 --> 00:49:47,627
people are like, you know, I don't really want to talk about trains right now.
680
00:49:48,047 --> 00:49:51,927
So can we maybe talk about something else? But when instead of you're focused
681
00:49:51,927 --> 00:49:58,107
on trains, you're focused on a person, you have the same kind of reaction where
682
00:49:58,107 --> 00:50:00,787
you're like, I have to go do a thing.
683
00:50:00,907 --> 00:50:06,747
And you're like, but trains though, like I need you to, I need you to just be you.
684
00:50:06,847 --> 00:50:10,487
Like I need you to be with me all the time. And just like you cling to your
685
00:50:10,487 --> 00:50:15,787
idea or your topic or your focus or your interest, I cling to my person.
686
00:50:15,847 --> 00:50:19,767
And I'm like, I don't want to talk about other people. I want to talk about
687
00:50:19,767 --> 00:50:23,907
you and me and, and us not in the, in the weird, creepy sense,
688
00:50:24,027 --> 00:50:30,107
just in the sense that sometimes I feel a certain way and I like Leah to be
689
00:50:30,107 --> 00:50:33,447
close and it's oftentimes very sweet.
690
00:50:33,527 --> 00:50:39,907
And if she's not around, I don't always feel great, but it's gotten to the point
691
00:50:39,907 --> 00:50:45,267
now where she's able to go and do her own thing. Well, let's talk about techniques.
692
00:50:45,407 --> 00:50:47,367
So when I'm not near you, I text you a lot.
693
00:50:47,907 --> 00:50:54,767
I call you. I'll send you memes and stuff that I like or videos or stories that
694
00:50:54,767 --> 00:50:56,187
I like and I think are pertinent.
695
00:50:56,387 --> 00:50:59,767
I will find a way to keep touch even if I'm doing other things.
696
00:50:59,887 --> 00:51:03,127
And that tends to help because what used to happen, honestly,
697
00:51:03,387 --> 00:51:07,367
is when I would leave for any amount of time and not keep in touch,
698
00:51:07,407 --> 00:51:11,247
then it would actually cause a fight because I'd come back and you'd be in such a bad mood.
699
00:51:11,247 --> 00:51:14,827
And then instead of us rejoining and enjoying our time together,
700
00:51:14,947 --> 00:51:16,927
it would cause a disagreement. Right.
701
00:51:17,327 --> 00:51:23,727
And Leah and I would often actually have arguments that were based around the
702
00:51:23,727 --> 00:51:27,607
fact that I demanded more time with her.
703
00:51:27,687 --> 00:51:30,887
And I would say of all the disagreements that a couple might have.
704
00:51:31,903 --> 00:51:35,903
The fact that they're fighting about wanting to spend more time together seems
705
00:51:35,903 --> 00:51:39,843
a bit strange on the surface. It's absolutely the sweetest fight ever.
706
00:51:40,043 --> 00:51:44,843
But in our life with all the moving parts, sometimes it wasn't appropriate and we had to work that out.
707
00:51:45,023 --> 00:51:48,643
We do. So now what we do is what I consider touch points.
708
00:51:49,163 --> 00:51:54,543
Because as much as I love when Leah will touch my shoulder or hold my hand or
709
00:51:54,543 --> 00:51:58,223
give me a hug or give me a kiss or just kind of stand next to me.
710
00:51:58,223 --> 00:52:04,363
If it's not possible because of the busyness of our life, sending me a meme
711
00:52:04,363 --> 00:52:09,703
or texting me a heart or just looking at me and being silly or smiling,
712
00:52:10,083 --> 00:52:13,863
it's like she's hugging my heart.
713
00:52:14,003 --> 00:52:22,903
And it makes me feel better, even though we're not spending the amount of time together that I'd like.
714
00:52:22,903 --> 00:52:25,683
And of course there there there is
715
00:52:25,683 --> 00:52:28,823
times during the day or evening when we
716
00:52:28,823 --> 00:52:31,663
do put aside time where we're just that's another thing that's
717
00:52:31,663 --> 00:52:35,303
another compromise and both of us have a tendency to be a little bit insecure
718
00:52:35,303 --> 00:52:39,303
because of the amount of time that we've had to spend apart and we're actually
719
00:52:39,303 --> 00:52:44,463
hoping that that will go away as as the years progress but that remains to be
720
00:52:44,463 --> 00:52:48,503
seen so another compromise we make is that we promise each other time later
721
00:52:48,503 --> 00:52:51,183
okay so you're done this thing at 11 p.m.
722
00:52:51,183 --> 00:52:55,923
I'm going to put the kids to bed and we're going to spend an hour together before we go to sleep.
723
00:52:56,143 --> 00:52:59,783
And that will often make one or both of us feel a lot better.
724
00:53:00,583 --> 00:53:06,123
It's also based on importance. And again, this might be a bit of a foreign concept
725
00:53:06,123 --> 00:53:12,243
to people that don't have the same attachment that we do, but it's basically
726
00:53:12,243 --> 00:53:15,443
like, I'm feeling like I need more time with you.
727
00:53:15,443 --> 00:53:20,963
Is my need for more time with you more important than what we're currently doing?
728
00:53:21,283 --> 00:53:25,903
If not, then can it wait until later? And if so, then can we compromise?
729
00:53:26,283 --> 00:53:34,283
I can't, you know, stay home tonight, for example, but how about we just sit
730
00:53:34,283 --> 00:53:37,343
and watch like a TV show for half an hour together?
731
00:53:37,343 --> 00:53:41,723
Together and I'll put my arm around you and we'll just spend time doing that.
732
00:53:42,083 --> 00:53:46,703
But then I do have to go. So sometimes there can be alternatives than,
733
00:53:46,703 --> 00:53:51,003
than just, I need you to drop everything and just be there with me.
734
00:53:51,563 --> 00:53:54,863
And it makes it a lot easier to operate. Touchstones.
735
00:53:55,023 --> 00:54:00,103
I'll pour you, he works from home, so I can see him and he can see me often
736
00:54:00,103 --> 00:54:01,603
because we're in the same space.
737
00:54:01,643 --> 00:54:04,603
So touchstones, I'll pour you a glass of wine and bring it to you.
738
00:54:04,843 --> 00:54:06,943
I'll pour you a coffee and bring it to you.
739
00:54:07,343 --> 00:54:10,183
Dinner time, you know, right, or I will bring you food.
740
00:54:10,223 --> 00:54:15,103
Those actually do help versus if you were out of the house, I think the coming
741
00:54:15,103 --> 00:54:17,463
back together adjustment would be more difficult.
742
00:54:17,963 --> 00:54:21,343
Yes, and it's certainly a lot easier than it's ever been now.
743
00:54:21,743 --> 00:54:27,743
There was always going to be the initial feeling that what if I...
744
00:54:29,086 --> 00:54:35,326
Come home and she's not there? Or what if something is going on and I miss it?
745
00:54:35,686 --> 00:54:40,186
Or what if there was something that I needed to do, but I forgot?
746
00:54:40,746 --> 00:54:46,106
Or I decided I was going to go to synagogue and she absolutely needed me there
747
00:54:46,106 --> 00:54:50,166
with her for some reason that I wasn't aware of. I can explain to him.
748
00:54:50,386 --> 00:54:53,926
So there was a lot of that. I only need two things. I'm really simple where that's come to.
749
00:54:54,046 --> 00:54:57,466
I want him to wake me because he's an early riser and I'm not.
750
00:54:57,566 --> 00:54:59,166
That's always been the case, actually.
751
00:54:59,526 --> 00:55:02,686
So I want him to wake me and kiss me goodbye so I know he's gone.
752
00:55:02,986 --> 00:55:06,286
And then I explain to him, cell phones exist. They're a thing.
753
00:55:06,626 --> 00:55:11,426
If I need you, you're a 10-minute walk away and I have a cell phone. Right.
754
00:55:12,486 --> 00:55:17,986
And it's definitely gotten a lot better. And like Leah mentioned, we have a family.
755
00:55:18,146 --> 00:55:26,166
So there's definitely a need for us to split ways and occasionally parent the children.
756
00:55:27,566 --> 00:55:33,986
More than occasionally. Yes. So we can't spend too much time together to the
757
00:55:33,986 --> 00:55:40,806
point that Raya has mentioned that we spend so much time together that she misses
758
00:55:40,806 --> 00:55:43,326
both of us and wants to spend more time with us.
759
00:55:44,026 --> 00:55:47,966
We have a ritual that when we're not working at night, we watch a show that
760
00:55:47,966 --> 00:55:50,486
we all like together. And she sits on the couch with us.
761
00:55:51,946 --> 00:55:57,326
And it's actually really, it's an interesting topic that I would like to delve more into.
762
00:55:57,486 --> 00:56:02,426
And it has a lot to do with raising children as an autistic parent.
763
00:56:03,046 --> 00:56:11,206
Because as an autistic adult, you have responsibilities, presumably, if you have a family.
764
00:56:11,206 --> 00:56:15,786
I mean, the idea of calling it an autistic parent implies that you have children,
765
00:56:15,946 --> 00:56:19,186
I mean, I guess, in some respect.
766
00:56:19,346 --> 00:56:23,906
But if you're an autistic person and you have decided to enter into a relationship,
767
00:56:24,186 --> 00:56:29,066
and as often happens in the course of being in the relationship and doing the
768
00:56:29,066 --> 00:56:31,566
things that relationships involve, children happen.
769
00:56:31,566 --> 00:56:39,726
And then you have to get into balancing your needs as an autistic person versus
770
00:56:39,726 --> 00:56:44,006
your needs as the husband or the wife, I guess,
771
00:56:44,146 --> 00:56:49,746
of an autistic co-parent and being an autistic parent to a child,
772
00:56:49,826 --> 00:56:51,346
which may or may not also be autistic,
773
00:56:51,666 --> 00:56:54,426
which is another interesting topic to get into.
774
00:56:54,706 --> 00:56:58,466
We should do an entire episode on the genetic testing that we went through.
775
00:56:59,146 --> 00:57:03,686
We will. And I would absolutely love to do that because you,
776
00:57:03,766 --> 00:57:07,126
you, we talk a lot about Avram and of course he's autistic and I'm autistic.
777
00:57:07,306 --> 00:57:11,926
So we have an interesting dynamic, but a lot of autistic parents.
778
00:57:13,017 --> 00:57:17,057
Do not have autistic children. Like it's not a disease that we pass on to other
779
00:57:17,057 --> 00:57:20,817
people. It often happens. The science is out on that, really.
780
00:57:21,017 --> 00:57:24,557
I mean, yes and no. It's not a disease, period. I don't want to imply that it
781
00:57:24,557 --> 00:57:28,377
is. It's not a disease, but it's absolutely genetic. But it's not guaranteed, necessarily.
782
00:57:29,157 --> 00:57:34,037
It's a 50-50. It's a 50-50. And if you're an autistic parent and you have an
783
00:57:34,037 --> 00:57:37,937
autistic child and you have to deal with your own needs
784
00:57:38,377 --> 00:57:43,797
versus the needs of now a newborn infant, it can get interesting And as we say
785
00:57:43,797 --> 00:57:47,997
in Judaism, bizrat Hashem, which means by the grace of God, we'll be discussing
786
00:57:47,997 --> 00:57:50,617
that more in detail at a future episode.
787
00:57:51,097 --> 00:57:54,997
And I'll leave that, just I'll put that down for now. As always,
788
00:57:55,117 --> 00:57:58,417
we've gone over, but there's one more topic that I need to discuss real quick.
789
00:57:58,757 --> 00:58:03,997
So let's discuss the appropriateness of when to rescue your neurodivergent partner
790
00:58:03,997 --> 00:58:07,957
in a social situation and when to actually let them hang there a little bit
791
00:58:07,957 --> 00:58:11,437
and be uncomfortable for the purposes of growth of themselves.
792
00:58:12,997 --> 00:58:18,317
The, the unfortunate-ness of having an autistic child,
793
00:58:18,557 --> 00:58:22,657
but also an autistic adult, especially if you, if you are the partner of an
794
00:58:22,657 --> 00:58:27,157
autistic person, is you have to love them. And of course you love them.
795
00:58:27,197 --> 00:58:28,117
Why wouldn't you love them?
796
00:58:28,417 --> 00:58:35,377
Autistic people are adorable. No. They are. But we're also developmentally delayed in some respects.
797
00:58:35,577 --> 00:58:40,257
And that is not, and when autistic, that is literally the definition of autism. Yeah.
798
00:58:40,897 --> 00:58:46,237
So when you encounter a delay, whether it's a social delay or an emotional delay
799
00:58:46,237 --> 00:58:49,757
or a physical delay or a psychological delay or some kind of delay,
800
00:58:50,097 --> 00:58:52,437
then you have two choices.
801
00:58:52,537 --> 00:58:57,297
You could either accommodate, and again, we're getting into reasonable versus
802
00:58:57,297 --> 00:59:02,337
unreasonable accommodation, or you can allow them to grow.
803
00:59:02,337 --> 00:59:05,897
And sometimes growth can look a bit
804
00:59:05,897 --> 00:59:11,217
weird because if you are the partner of an autistic person and that particular
805
00:59:11,217 --> 00:59:15,857
autistic person struggles in social interactions and you end up seeing them
806
00:59:15,857 --> 00:59:19,637
in a social interaction and you know them well enough and you care about them
807
00:59:19,637 --> 00:59:22,817
enough to see that they're uncomfortable, you have to make a decision.
808
00:59:22,957 --> 00:59:30,097
Do I go in and rescue them or do I allow them to try and figure it out on their
809
00:59:30,097 --> 00:59:31,777
own? Can I be honest with you?
810
00:59:32,357 --> 00:59:36,197
Whenever I'm making that decision, I always err on the side of letting you be
811
00:59:36,197 --> 00:59:39,677
a little bit uncomfortable. And I'll tell you why. It's not because I'm cruel.
812
00:59:40,097 --> 00:59:43,597
It's because I actually trust your ability to grow more.
813
00:59:44,499 --> 00:59:49,839
From being discomforted in a situation. Yes, and this is exactly where we get
814
00:59:49,839 --> 00:59:52,519
into that little woven thread of communication.
815
00:59:53,939 --> 00:59:57,119
Because we'll have a conversation, usually after the fact,
816
00:59:57,299 --> 01:00:00,339
and it's a lot more constructive now than it's been in the past,
817
01:00:00,419 --> 01:00:01,559
and I'll freely admit that,
818
01:00:01,699 --> 01:00:05,059
where I'll be like, you know what, I was in that thing,
819
01:00:05,159 --> 01:00:07,879
and these people were talking to me,
820
01:00:07,919 --> 01:00:11,679
and I was really uncomfortable, uncomfortable and you know
821
01:00:11,679 --> 01:00:15,399
where were you or like what was going on and over
822
01:00:15,399 --> 01:00:18,599
time Leigh and I have had discussions and it's really
823
01:00:18,599 --> 01:00:22,239
sort of come down to okay so I'm I wanted
824
01:00:22,239 --> 01:00:26,639
you to be able to figure this out on your own because if you find yourself in
825
01:00:26,639 --> 01:00:33,179
a situation that makes you uncomfortable you have to be able to say I am no
826
01:00:33,179 --> 01:00:36,199
longer comfortable in this situation I mean you wouldn't necessarily say that
827
01:00:36,199 --> 01:00:38,859
to a person you're talking to because they'd be like I don't understand on what you're talking about,
828
01:00:38,959 --> 01:00:44,259
but you have to know what to do in order to get out of the conversation.
829
01:00:44,519 --> 01:00:46,099
And you can do it completely reasonably.
830
01:00:47,019 --> 01:00:51,679
It was great talking to you. I have to go. And then just walk away.
831
01:00:52,199 --> 01:00:57,199
It's that simple. You can just scream, I'm leaving now, but that's less acceptable.
832
01:00:58,079 --> 01:01:02,499
And they might wonder. No, but it's true. The conversations used to go,
833
01:01:03,099 --> 01:01:04,459
didn't you see I was uncomfortable?
834
01:01:04,599 --> 01:01:08,079
Where were you to rescue me? To now, I mean, like, Like I was kind of uncomfortable
835
01:01:08,079 --> 01:01:11,999
in that situation. And that was directly related to my response to you.
836
01:01:12,339 --> 01:01:14,979
Because when you would get mad at me, I'd get mad at you. And I'd say,
837
01:01:15,039 --> 01:01:16,659
I saw that you were uncomfortable.
838
01:01:17,059 --> 01:01:20,079
I also think you've got this. You need to try.
839
01:01:21,102 --> 01:01:26,762
You have to try. And I am definitely someone who likes to challenge myself.
840
01:01:27,162 --> 01:01:30,702
I am a father. I am a husband.
841
01:01:31,002 --> 01:01:34,222
I am an employee to the extent that I am.
842
01:01:34,302 --> 01:01:41,642
I am living in a country where at this time, I'm not fluent in the native language quite yet.
843
01:01:41,802 --> 01:01:47,042
So I'm no stranger to putting myself in uncomfortable situations.
844
01:01:47,642 --> 01:01:51,562
And that's what I want. And I've actually told Leah, If you have the option,
845
01:01:51,782 --> 01:01:56,222
I would actually like if you could allow me to try and figure things out on
846
01:01:56,222 --> 01:02:03,342
my own because it helps me to grow as a person and develop my own ability to identify my own needs.
847
01:02:03,842 --> 01:02:08,862
And being able to identify your needs is applicable whether you're talking about
848
01:02:08,862 --> 01:02:11,222
a five-year-old autistic or a 50-year-old autistic.
849
01:02:11,942 --> 01:02:16,822
It's all about, this is how I'm feeling. This is how I'm going to share that
850
01:02:16,822 --> 01:02:21,382
with other people. rather than stepping in and going, Moshe's done for the day. He's leaving now.
851
01:02:21,802 --> 01:02:28,722
Because then you're just allowing this autistic person to be in this permanent
852
01:02:28,722 --> 01:02:31,942
immature state where they never have to fight their own battles.
853
01:02:32,282 --> 01:02:37,762
And you constantly have to be there to manage them.
854
01:02:38,222 --> 01:02:43,142
Now, the one exception I do have to say, and this requires you to be very attuned
855
01:02:43,142 --> 01:02:47,062
to your or autistic individual, is if I see a meltdown is imminent,
856
01:02:47,282 --> 01:02:48,702
I will absolutely intervene.
857
01:02:49,802 --> 01:02:55,042
But you have to know the very early signs of them, and you have to understand
858
01:02:55,042 --> 01:02:57,522
what they are, and you have to respect them. For sure.
859
01:02:57,942 --> 01:03:01,602
Because, I mean, there's helping your autistic person grow. Because there's
860
01:03:01,602 --> 01:03:05,542
a point where you can stop it, and then there's a point of no return where you can't.
861
01:03:05,562 --> 01:03:09,242
And then you really don't want to be at a dinner party and explain why your
862
01:03:09,242 --> 01:03:10,402
husband is on the phone crying.
863
01:03:10,662 --> 01:03:16,422
Right. Because again, we had a conversation the other day, actually, about where,
864
01:03:17,411 --> 01:03:25,551
you know, being tough or being harsh or being firm transitions into being cruel.
865
01:03:26,051 --> 01:03:31,391
And if you are allowing your person, whether they be your child or your partner,
866
01:03:31,511 --> 01:03:35,131
to figure out a situation that makes them uncomfortable,
867
01:03:35,371 --> 01:03:39,591
and it's clear that they're not doing well and they need out,
868
01:03:39,831 --> 01:03:44,571
then that's not the moment to go, well, this is an experience for them to figure out.
869
01:03:44,671 --> 01:03:47,871
That's where you step in and you say, okay. Because a lot of autistics struggle
870
01:03:47,871 --> 01:03:49,811
with social interactions.
871
01:03:49,951 --> 01:03:52,751
That's been the entire theme of this episode.
872
01:03:52,971 --> 01:03:59,231
If a child is struggling to learn how to ride a bicycle, do you just give up
873
01:03:59,231 --> 01:04:01,031
on your bicycle or do you put training wheels?
874
01:04:01,411 --> 01:04:05,751
Right. And socially speaking, I feel that I'm your training wheels.
875
01:04:05,951 --> 01:04:11,311
Therefore, I let you go off and bike to the best of your ability.
876
01:04:11,931 --> 01:04:17,851
But if you really can't handle the bicycle anymore, That that's where the training
877
01:04:17,851 --> 01:04:19,671
wheel part comes up. Right.
878
01:04:20,111 --> 01:04:24,671
So that is, that is social interactions and it's great to be back.
879
01:04:25,091 --> 01:04:31,971
And if you have any comments or concerns or queries or conundrums or complaints,
880
01:04:32,231 --> 01:04:34,751
definitely let us know. Or even just want to say hi.
881
01:04:34,891 --> 01:04:39,811
Yes. Our email again is contact us at now, you know, one autistic.com.
882
01:04:40,251 --> 01:04:44,111
All literally everywhere on social media. Just look that up. We were on YouTube.
883
01:04:44,191 --> 01:04:49,131
You can comment or like those. You can find us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify
884
01:04:49,131 --> 01:04:51,351
and Podchaser and a bunch of other ones.
885
01:04:51,391 --> 01:04:54,811
Basically, if you Google search Now You Know One Autistic Podcast,
886
01:04:55,171 --> 01:04:56,031
you'll find us somewhere.
887
01:04:56,911 --> 01:05:01,131
We get around. And yeah, so that's how that's going to go.
888
01:05:02,391 --> 01:05:07,111
Well, that's our show for today. Now You Know One Autistic, just a little bit better.
889
01:05:07,771 --> 01:05:15,031
So something you know about some autistics is that we often struggle with ending social interactions.
890
01:05:16,071 --> 01:05:20,271
So, Leah? All right, Moshe, I'll take care of it.
891
01:05:20,611 --> 01:05:24,631
Thank you for listening to Now You Know One Autistic. See you next week.
892
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:32,533
Music.