Autistic Relationships: Cracking the Code of Social Interaction

Episode Title: Autistic Relationships: Cracking the Code of Social Interaction

Episode Number: 7

Release Date: May 12, 2024

Duration: 01:05:32

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah discuss navigating social situations as a neurodiverse couple. They share personal experiences and insights into the challenges faced by autistic individuals in social settings, including sensory overload, small talk, and physical touch. The hosts emphasize the importance of open communication, understanding, and compromise in navigating social situations as a couple. They also discuss the concept of the "social battery" and how it affects autistic individuals. The episode concludes with a discussion on the importance of respecting boundaries and allowing for individual growth in relationships.

Key Takeaways:

• Social Challenges for Autistic Individuals: The episode explores the unique challenges faced by autistic individuals in social settings, including sensory overload, small talk, and physical touch.
• Communication and Compromise: The hosts emphasize the importance of open communication, understanding, and compromise in navigating social situations as a couple.
• The Social Battery: The concept of the "social battery" is discussed, highlighting how social interactions can be draining for autistic individuals and the need for recharging.
• Respecting Boundaries: The episode emphasizes the importance of respecting boundaries and allowing for individual growth in relationships.
• Reasonable Accommodation: The hosts discuss the concept of reasonable accommodation, emphasizing the importance of finding a balance between supporting an autistic individual's needs and allowing for growth and independence.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The challenges of navigating social situations as a neurodiverse couple.
• The concept of the "social battery" and how it affects autistic individuals.
• Strategies for communicating and compromising in social settings.
• The importance of respecting boundaries and allowing for individual growth.
• The concept of reasonable accommodation and how it applies to neurodiverse relationships.

Quotes:

• "I kind of wear Leah as a form of armor." - Moshe
• "If I don't trust you, it's hard for me to interact with you and sustain." - Moshe
• "It is a matter of engaging as much as possible without trying to come across as disinterested or rude." - Moshe
• "Autistic people are adorable." - Leah
• "You have to love them. And of course you love them. Why wouldn't you love them?" - Leah

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Transcript:

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Music.

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Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic. I'm Leah, and I'm boring.

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Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,

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marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.

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The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.

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Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion,

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and unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the

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many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.

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But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will

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be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,

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a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.

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If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,

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consult your family doctor.

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Music.

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Hi, Moshe. Hi, Leah. How are you today, Annie? I'm great.

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So, we haven't recorded in a little while because it's been a holiday, right?

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In Israel and in our own personal lives, we don't talk a lot about it,

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but we are Orthodox Jews, So, we do observe the Jewish holidays,

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and it was just Pesach, or some people might know as Passover,

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which in Israel lasts a week.

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Two of the days are holidays, and the other five days are sort of intermediate

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days where they're kind of holidays, but kind of not.

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Essentially, they're a vacation. So, our children were home the whole time.

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Yeah. And we love our children, and we love spending time with them.

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But they they don't exactly

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make it easy to take time

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away and because right now we're we're using very we'll call

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it rudimentary podcasting equipment so it

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it's not like we have like the privacy to say okay so you know mom and annab

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are going to the recording studio right now so we need an hour to ourselves

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so if you've been followed closely and you've been sort of waiting with Bated

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Breath for new episodes.

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We do apologize, but there will be times, as Moshe said, as Orthodox Jews that

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we just won't be available because there are some times we can't use electronics at all.

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And often, especially in Israel, our children will be off during those times.

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We don't want to talk too, too much, at least right now about,

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you know, Israel or, you know, being Jewish because it's not relevant necessarily

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to the content of the podcast, But we absolutely do want to get into it.

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And of course, if you have any questions or you want us to do an episode specific

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to that, then we could definitely consider it.

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Maybe that would actually be a good special episode.

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I feel like it's something we would only do if there was a high demand for it. For sure.

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So anyway. Anyway, talking about holidays. Yes.

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Segue, everyone, or as Moshe would say, transition. So it's a good segue into

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today's subject, which is navigating social situations.

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Because during the past week, we've had a lot of social gatherings to attend, right, Moshe?

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Yeah, so the highlight of Pesach, or Passover, is the Seder.

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And in Israel, because it's only one day, there's only one Seder,

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and it's the first day of Passover.

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So, we ended up going the first night to a large Seder that was put on by our synagogue.

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And if you are familiar with how a Seder goes, it's very ritualized,

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which I do very well with because I'm autistic.

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Did you know? I did. it okay so it's

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very ritualized and there's a lot now

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you have to eat the thing with the whatever

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and now you have to to read this story and now you have to do this thing with

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the wine and it's it's very uh conversely it's also a very high social situation

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so for example where we went there are at least 100 people in the room if not

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more yeah all sitting together all chatting everybody having their own demands.

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And for me, it was especially challenging because I had both Moshe and Avram

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with me in this situation where it was loud and not necessarily everybody was

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organized and there was just food everywhere that you can't touch right now.

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Not to mention that by the end of it, we've all had four cups of wine,

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which you have to chug. Again, it's a ritual.

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We could talk about it another time.

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So the social lubricant is just there and then people become come touchy. It's a whole thing.

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So we figured we already were discussing talking about social situations,

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but we thought that this would be a good time.

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It's a great opportunity to, as Lea said, segue into the idea of neurodivergence,

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neurodiversity when it comes to social interactions.

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It's one of those stereotypes that when you talk to somebody and discuss the

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fact that you're are autistic,

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one of the things that is often associated with autism and other neurodiversity

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is difficulty in social situations.

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Yeah. So let's talk about that.

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Let's talk about navigating social situations as a couple. For sure.

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What does that look like for you?

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So the way it generally works in social situations...

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When Leah and I go out and if we have to interact with a lot of people,

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or if we're going to see friends,

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or if we're going to a large gathering where there's going to be a lot of people,

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particularly people that we don't necessarily know that well,

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I kind of wear Leah as a form of armor.

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And I will attempt to social as much as I possibly can.

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And then sort of when I feel a bit overwhelmed, I will sort of tag out.

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He does this really adorable thing where I'm, I don't know, I'm about four inches

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shorter than him and he can move me around sort of at will.

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So he'll do this thing where he'll talk to people for a couple of minutes and

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then he'll just sort of grab me and literally place me in front of him and say,

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so anyway, here's my wife,

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and that's my cue to start talking, because I have a much bigger threshold for

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social interaction than he does.

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But the nature of these sorts of gatherings, and especially in the Jewish community,

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is there's very different roles that men and women often play.

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Let's talk about that. I can't always be there. There are times,

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ritualistically, where there's literally a wall in between us,

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where I'm on my side with all the women and our daughter, and he's on his side

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either alone or with Avram, who's not much help in social situations.

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Yeah, so the wall that you're referring to is a mechitza, and it's often found

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in a lot of Orthodox Jewish synagogues.

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And if you go, like here in Israel, if you go to the Kotel, to the Western Wall,

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or really any religious site that we've been,

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particularly one that's quite religious, which if you know anything about Jerusalem,

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it's kind of, it's hard not to find

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a Jewish site here that's not like the holiest site in all of the world.

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Unless you're extremely liberal, which doesn't really happen here,

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there's always some kind of a separation.

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So the women will sit up higher and the men will sit down lower,

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or women will sit on one side and the men will sit on the other side.

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The thing that we don't subscribe to is when we're looking for a synagogue,

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is sometimes the women will be in a small little sort of bullpen enclosed area

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and the men will have the rest of the area.

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If that's what's happening, we don't go there.

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It's a really interesting, at least to me, and it's also a really involved topic.

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And if there's enough interest, I would absolutely love to get into our experience

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because there's a lot of different nuances to our upbringing and to the different

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forms of Orthodox Judaism.

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But for the purposes of this episode and this podcast, what I will say is because

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of the different roles and because of the mechitzah or the dividing wall,

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the expectation is not only that men and women are kept separate,

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but that they interact with each other. Right.

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So Moshe or men will often be touching Moshe or clapping him on the back or

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clapping him on the shoulder or wanting to talk to him when he's not wanting to.

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And I can see this from the other side because we can sort of see through,

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but there's nothing I can really do about it.

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Yeah, it's unfortunately something, or fortunately, depending on how you see

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it, but it's something that I've had to learn to adapt to over time.

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Because if you are a neurodivergent and you exist in, I'll use the N word here,

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if you exist in the normal world, that can be a...

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You scared me there for a second. That can be a t-shirt actually, maybe.

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But if you want to exist in the normal world and function as a normal person,

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then the expectation is that you're going to interact because it's absolutely

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acceptable, at least as far as we're concerned.

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And if you are the kind of person who just wants to be on his own and not interact

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with anybody and just do whatever you do and then avoid talking,

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but I'm not one of those people.

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I've always been a bit of a contradiction that way.

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So when I'm on the men's side, or particularly when I want to attend a service

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outside of the standard family services where Leah is not there,

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or the kids are not there, and I'm essentially on my own.

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Then I've had to learn to adapt to carrying on basic social interactions.

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And it's a challenge, and it's definitely a challenge that I'd love to discuss,

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because this episode is particularly about navigating social situations.

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So for us, another thing that's important to understand for us,

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and that's a challenge for people like Moshe sometimes,

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is that in our, it's not really religion, in our society, let's say,

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because Judaism isn't everything, right?

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It's a society, it's a people. In our society, it's absolutely acceptable to

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show extreme touch and affection between same-gender people,

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because a lot of it does have to do with separation between men and women,

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and you're not going to touch somebody of the opposite gender that you're not related to, right?

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So on my end, the women hug a lot and sort of touch each other a lot and say

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nice things to each other, dance together.

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And on the men's side, it's very much the same, except maybe less hugging and

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more sort of like, hey, bro, punch him on the... There's a lot of...

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There's a lot of physical affection between same-gender people that you won't

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find necessarily in other social situations.

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Different religious communities have different expectations of social interaction

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and different expectations of social contact.

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Our experience with Jews is that we're

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or being in the Jewish community, is that there is a lot of physical touching

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happening, whether you're shaking each other's hands, or you're slapping each

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other on the shoulder as a greeting, or you're dancing.

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One of the things that I've had to adapt to, the more religious I became,

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was the fact that Jewish men love to dance.

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They're always ripping him out of his seat when he doesn't want to and making

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him dance around. And I'm very much about, I'm one of those people that sort

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of sits there like, don't look at me, don't look at me, don't look at me,

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because if I make eye contact, you're going to ask me to dance.

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And then eventually I get cajoled enough by Leah and Raya and possibly other

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men in the community where they'll grab me or they'll like look at me and like,

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come on. And you don't want to be rude.

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I mean, maybe you do, but I don't want to be rude. So, of course,

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I always submit to the dance.

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And for me, any kind of social interaction, especially someone that I don't

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know particularly well or someone who I don't trust, and trust is a big thing

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that we've talked about in past episodes.

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If I don't trust you, it's hard for me to interact with you and sustain.

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And we're talking about things like eye contact, physical touch.

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I can tolerate physical touch and close contact with people a lot more with

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people that I trust and that I have a relatively good relationship with versus

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somebody who I don't know very well.

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Well, and the expectation is it's this holiday, so we're all going to get up

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and dance, and you're expected to take part in it, even though we've had maybe

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a whole conversation over the last three or four months.

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Right. I kind of want to go off on a little tangent, and then I'm going to bring

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us back to the subject, actually.

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So it's a very interesting thing for us because we also have become more religious

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together as you've been together as adults.

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But we also grew up together in a

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much less strict society back in north america and

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all of my friends know him

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right all of my friends from back then which i've kept friends for a long time

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in that neck of the woods know him as sort of like you know my boyfriend from

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back then and he would interact with them and he would hug that like girls right

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so girls who are now women and he He would hug them and he would interact with

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them. He would touch them, whatever.

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And as he got older, he's in particularly really uncomfortable with touching

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women that he's not related to.

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So when we were back in Montreal, because my mom was ill and I saw all my girlfriends

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from back then, what happened?

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They all wanted to hug me and touch me and show the same level of interaction

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and affection that they had grown accustomed to when it came to me.

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And some took it better than others. Some took it personally,

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which was definitely a concern of mine.

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But it was a journey for me, too, because this was relatively new information.

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Because everyone who knew me before we went back to Montreal either knew me

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as not that religious or they knew me as I was religious.

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So they knew better than to ask me to do things that I didn't feel like doing.

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And I was not as forthright with my feelings.

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And I still felt that I needed to accommodate. Which over time,

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and with a lot of help from Leah,

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I've actually become more able to vocalize my feelings and not be uncomfortable

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in saying, I'm sorry, I don't touch or I don't hug members of the other gender.

215
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But it was very hard because when we were all teenagers or even younger,

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he used to hug my girlfriends all the time. Yes.

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And for that, we're talking an awful lot about religion in this episode.

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For that- It's hard not to. It was-

219
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I mean, why not? It's part of the whole thing. For that, it was hard for me.

220
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Because as an autistic, and again, one autistic, not trying to speak for everyone,

221
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I have a hard time with illogical things.

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And I was feeling, I am now religious,

223
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I don't feel comfortable physically touching other members of,

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you know, other women who are not related to me, like my daughter or my wife or my relatives.

225
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And I used to before, so is it fair?

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Is it fair for me to now tell these people, no, I don't want to?

227
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And if you can believe it or not, that was a topic of conversation between us privately a lot.

228
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And ultimately what I had to convince him is that it's absolutely fair,

229
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but you also have to really very much be honest about your boundaries now and

230
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not sort of whiffle and whiffle waffle about it.

231
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Right. Because my friends weren't actually doing anything wrong.

232
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They were just interacting with you the way that they were used to.

233
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I mean, there were some that took it a bit more personally than others.

234
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But for the most part, it really does have to be inconsistent behavioral change.

235
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And we discussed, now we're really getting into religion.

236
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We discussed the comparison between the concept that we were discussing,

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which, in case you're interested, it's called Shomer Negev,

238
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and the idea of kashrut, especially in the context of someone who was secular

239
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and decided to become religious later on, which we call Baal Tshuva or Choser B'tshuva.

240
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Again, irrelevant to the topic of today's episode, but it's mostly just fun

241
00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:20,899
facts. And what I gained from that, which applied in this situation, is that.

242
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If you were in a past life, the kind of person who didn't mind eating non-kosher

243
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or you didn't mind some contact with members of the other sex,

244
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then it's actually kind of a higher level of holiness, if you want to consider

245
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it that way, that you're now taking on for yourself the idea that you don't do this anymore. more.

246
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More so, one would argue, than somebody who was raised this way forever,

247
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and this is basically what they know.

248
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Of course I don't shake hands with a woman. I've never done it.

249
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Versus, yes, you're absolutely right. Several years ago when I saw you, I would give you a hug,

250
00:18:07,007 --> 00:18:13,187
but I don't feel comfortable doing it anymore, and that's something that's very

251
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important to me because I'm taking that on myself.

252
00:18:15,827 --> 00:18:19,427
Right, so I'm going to drive us back into the whole idea of a social situation.

253
00:18:19,727 --> 00:18:24,347
And yes, that's based in religion. It's hard to separate us from our religion at this point.

254
00:18:24,707 --> 00:18:31,667
However, that is an example of navigating a social situation appropriately versus

255
00:18:31,667 --> 00:18:34,667
inappropriately, especially a difficult social situation.

256
00:18:35,087 --> 00:18:39,047
So we've discussed about navigating as a couple, where I'm there sort of to

257
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be sounding board or provide guidance or stand in the way if I have to.

258
00:18:42,227 --> 00:18:46,947
You, we've gotten to the point now where I can sort of read Moshe and I know what I have to say.

259
00:18:47,027 --> 00:18:49,487
I just have to decide if it's appropriate to say it or not.

260
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And sometimes I won't. Sometimes I'll still let him deal with it because it's

261
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not appropriate for me to interfere like he's a four-year-old.

262
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But sometimes it is. It depends.

263
00:18:59,267 --> 00:19:04,687
And he's talked about sort of navigating social situations on his own,

264
00:19:04,867 --> 00:19:08,687
though it would be probably interesting for the listeners to know some of the

265
00:19:08,687 --> 00:19:11,707
the techniques you use when you're on loan to navigate a social situation?

266
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Because to be honest, I'm not there, so I don't know.

267
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So, men, or at least the men that I typically associate with,

268
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and again, this is purely in a religious setting.

269
00:19:23,899 --> 00:19:26,599
Of course, it differs based on the settings that I'm currently in,

270
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are very much on an intimate level.

271
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The men that pray together feel a kinship, which makes a lot of sense, and a lot of them know me.

272
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And often whiskey is involved, and then they feel even closer, which is true.

273
00:19:43,099 --> 00:19:50,959
Absolutely. So when I am in that setting, and only this setting because there's

274
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different scripts for other settings, but when I'm in this setting,

275
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I've already accepted that there are going to be some people that will come

276
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up to me and interact with me.

277
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And in fact, it's almost preferred on my part if they do, because I don't want

278
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to be seen as rude or standoffish, even though I obviously am.

279
00:20:12,179 --> 00:20:15,599
But it's part of the nature of who I want to be.

280
00:20:16,539 --> 00:20:23,419
And it really is about a script, especially if it's someone that I don't know

281
00:20:23,419 --> 00:20:28,039
very well or that I don't necessarily even, I don't want to say I don't like,

282
00:20:28,199 --> 00:20:30,579
but I'm not comfortable with.

283
00:20:30,579 --> 00:20:32,939
And it kind of goes like this.

284
00:20:33,059 --> 00:20:35,399
A person will come up to me and they'll say hi.

285
00:20:35,639 --> 00:20:41,559
And I will try to make as much eye contact with them as possible because that's

286
00:20:41,559 --> 00:20:45,139
the socially accepted response for acknowledging a person's presence.

287
00:20:45,579 --> 00:20:54,039
And I will respond with a greeting. If they engage me in small talk, which I dislike.

288
00:20:54,659 --> 00:20:59,419
Greatly. Greatly. He's underselling how much he dislikes small talk.

289
00:20:59,419 --> 00:21:04,179
I'm a very direct person, so small talk is not necessarily my favorite thing,

290
00:21:04,219 --> 00:21:06,759
of course. Do not talk to Moshe about the weather. Don't do it.

291
00:21:07,339 --> 00:21:09,779
I'll say the weather's fine. What do you want? And...

292
00:21:10,483 --> 00:21:14,383
They'll say, hey, how's it going? They don't care. They don't care how's it going.

293
00:21:14,603 --> 00:21:17,043
And if I try to tell them how's it going, they don't want to hear it.

294
00:21:17,243 --> 00:21:19,223
So I'll go, it's great. It's fine.

295
00:21:20,263 --> 00:21:24,743
How's it going with you? So, I'll try to mirror them in that sense.

296
00:21:24,803 --> 00:21:29,103
If they ask me a question, I'll give an answer and give them a similar question

297
00:21:29,103 --> 00:21:34,063
to indicate that I am now connected with them in a social interaction and we

298
00:21:34,063 --> 00:21:35,543
are now interacting socially.

299
00:21:36,263 --> 00:21:43,023
And I will let them do most of the talking and most of the time that will be fine.

300
00:21:43,103 --> 00:21:46,863
And if they ask me questions, I will respond. But essentially,

301
00:21:47,083 --> 00:21:54,943
it is a matter of engaging as much as possible without trying to come across

302
00:21:54,943 --> 00:21:57,463
as disinterested or rude.

303
00:21:57,863 --> 00:22:00,663
And I've developed certain techniques for that.

304
00:22:01,023 --> 00:22:05,003
The old adage is that if you have trouble making eye contact,

305
00:22:05,143 --> 00:22:06,883
stare at their forehead or stare at their nose.

306
00:22:07,063 --> 00:22:14,463
If they're not paying super strong attention to it, it'll look relatively similar. A lot of nodding.

307
00:22:14,643 --> 00:22:18,323
Sometimes I nod a lot when people are talking to me.

308
00:22:18,483 --> 00:22:23,883
And it is something that I learned over time that if someone is talking to you,

309
00:22:23,903 --> 00:22:28,303
if you nod periodically, it demonstrates that you're paying attention.

310
00:22:28,603 --> 00:22:33,263
And sometimes you are, sometimes you're not. I actually do that even when I'm

311
00:22:33,263 --> 00:22:34,803
not engaged in a one-on-one conversation.

312
00:22:34,983 --> 00:22:39,223
Sometimes, sometimes someone will be talking to a room and I'll like instinctively

313
00:22:39,223 --> 00:22:42,923
just start nodding just because I, oh, talking is happening.

314
00:22:43,043 --> 00:22:46,083
I must nod to acknowledge I'm listening so I don't get called out.

315
00:22:46,203 --> 00:22:52,323
Got it. And then if I feel overwhelmed and Leah's not there to like throw me

316
00:22:52,323 --> 00:22:59,743
a life preserver, then I will attempt to issue a statement attempting to exit

317
00:22:59,743 --> 00:23:00,983
from the social interaction.

318
00:23:01,283 --> 00:23:07,943
Which has to not be, okay, so what Moshe is talking about doing is, I'm done now, bye.

319
00:23:08,163 --> 00:23:11,483
And he's the Lord, but he can't do that either. I'm leaving.

320
00:23:12,923 --> 00:23:19,823
And I've learned some just based on my experience. Like, well, it's nice to see you.

321
00:23:20,629 --> 00:23:25,509
As in, you know, you hear the music and people are exiting stage left. Yeah.

322
00:23:25,849 --> 00:23:31,229
Or I'd love to stay a little longer and chat, but I do have to go.

323
00:23:32,009 --> 00:23:38,749
Or, you know, my wife is expecting me at home. Or I have to get the kids from the thing.

324
00:23:39,489 --> 00:23:44,789
And if I'm not there for the thing, then the thing is not going to happen.

325
00:23:44,849 --> 00:23:45,929
Like, things are happening.

326
00:23:46,089 --> 00:23:50,709
And I have to be present to remove someone from a thing. Exactly.

327
00:23:51,049 --> 00:23:56,629
So that segues again back into we discussed being your partner's social armor

328
00:23:56,629 --> 00:23:59,529
a little bit. Yes. But let's talk about what that means.

329
00:23:59,769 --> 00:24:04,169
So here it says when you're your partner's social arm. I figure that that's a subject for me.

330
00:24:04,629 --> 00:24:08,929
What that feels like to me and what that looks like to me is very interesting

331
00:24:08,929 --> 00:24:13,169
because I am handling my own social situations, right?

332
00:24:13,249 --> 00:24:17,389
So I'm talking to people and I'm interacting and I'm discussing.

333
00:24:17,389 --> 00:24:24,669
But at the same time, I'm also watching for him to look for signs of actual distress.

334
00:24:24,949 --> 00:24:28,209
Like, if he's just a little uncomfortable, I'll leave him there because he has to practice.

335
00:24:28,669 --> 00:24:32,009
It's important for me, and I welcome the ability to be uncomfortable,

336
00:24:32,389 --> 00:24:39,649
which as we discussed in also past episodes, you don't want to accommodate too much.

337
00:24:39,749 --> 00:24:43,609
And we'll definitely get into the different types of accommodation and what's

338
00:24:43,609 --> 00:24:47,889
helpful and what's not helpful accommodation. So what he described as a typical

339
00:24:47,889 --> 00:24:51,929
social interaction is something that I'm absolutely used to.

340
00:24:52,409 --> 00:24:56,129
And I will do the whole, hi, nice to see you. How are you anyway?

341
00:24:56,289 --> 00:25:00,869
How are the kids? Okay, I got to go thing automatically. And it doesn't bother me.

342
00:25:01,569 --> 00:25:06,649
Whereas Moshe, he says it feels so fake. And I've explained it's absolutely

343
00:25:06,649 --> 00:25:10,669
fake, but it's fake for the concept of being nice.

344
00:25:10,909 --> 00:25:13,789
Exactly. For making the person feel heard and understood.

345
00:25:14,209 --> 00:25:18,549
And then you can control the situation and exit it when you're ready to.

346
00:25:19,169 --> 00:25:23,029
And that is why I'm a very good social man for Osher.

347
00:25:23,329 --> 00:25:27,429
Again, he's just like, you seem to have an unlimited ability to social,

348
00:25:27,569 --> 00:25:29,689
which I don't, but I have a lot more than you do.

349
00:25:30,149 --> 00:25:33,149
So when he's done socialing, he's just like, have you met my wife?

350
00:25:33,349 --> 00:25:37,169
Meet me, you know, how I like to live. it's it's

351
00:25:37,169 --> 00:25:40,249
kind of like i compare it to that that scene from indiana jones

352
00:25:40,249 --> 00:25:43,769
where you know you you kind of deftly

353
00:25:43,769 --> 00:25:46,509
substitute the the the stat you know the

354
00:25:46,509 --> 00:25:49,389
little idol from the bag of sand and then

355
00:25:49,389 --> 00:25:54,669
you just kind of walk away with it i i'll like start a social interaction and

356
00:25:54,669 --> 00:25:57,829
then i'll be like yeah that's that's you know you remember that happened to

357
00:25:57,829 --> 00:26:02,689
us right and she'll start talking and i'll be like tiptoe backwards and then

358
00:26:02,689 --> 00:26:05,549
before you know it i'm no longer part of the interaction and And she's the one

359
00:26:05,549 --> 00:26:07,589
doing the talking. And I've escaped.

360
00:26:08,289 --> 00:26:13,049
And I quite often don't have a boulder rolling after me.

361
00:26:13,729 --> 00:26:17,469
Sometimes. Sometimes, yes. But yeah, it's very interesting.

362
00:26:18,595 --> 00:26:22,155
And there have been times concept because it is much better than you say,

363
00:26:22,295 --> 00:26:26,335
I have to leave now or I have to pee or something like that.

364
00:26:26,435 --> 00:26:31,635
Yes. And there have been times that I, I would try to,

365
00:26:31,695 --> 00:26:38,635
to be your armor because I like to practice sometimes and you'll be involved

366
00:26:38,635 --> 00:26:41,715
in a social interaction and I'll just kind of walk up and be like, hi,

367
00:26:41,895 --> 00:26:44,375
I'm here now. Now what's, what's happening.

368
00:26:44,995 --> 00:26:50,095
And in, in that instance, I'm, I'm not so much, you know, you're,

369
00:26:50,095 --> 00:26:51,655
you're, you're knight in shining armor.

370
00:26:51,775 --> 00:26:56,175
I'm, I'm kind of your, you know, squire in crumpled tinfoil.

371
00:26:56,295 --> 00:26:59,295
I'm actually thinking of one situation where I had told you,

372
00:26:59,375 --> 00:27:03,095
I wasn't really sure about one of the women that I was interacting with.

373
00:27:03,175 --> 00:27:08,035
So when you saw her with me and talking, you came up to me and you went, everything okay?

374
00:27:08,455 --> 00:27:13,735
And she literally looked at you and said, Moshe, she's fine. Go away. Yes.

375
00:27:15,055 --> 00:27:18,035
So, you know, sometimes it works, I guess, and sometimes it doesn't.

376
00:27:18,055 --> 00:27:21,695
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but I have to have more in my repertoire in order to save you.

377
00:27:22,955 --> 00:27:27,035
Not that you need to be saved very often. It's okay. I'm one of those princesses

378
00:27:27,035 --> 00:27:28,375
that saves themselves from the tower.

379
00:27:28,975 --> 00:27:35,515
Yes, you'll rescue yourself, you'll slay the dragon, and I'll make excuses about

380
00:27:35,515 --> 00:27:39,215
how I could have done it if I really wanted to be a part of it.

381
00:27:40,155 --> 00:27:47,135
Yeah. So, the nature of social interactions when it comes to neurodivergence

382
00:27:47,135 --> 00:27:49,775
is an interesting topic unto itself.

383
00:27:49,775 --> 00:27:52,915
And when you have multiple,

384
00:27:53,175 --> 00:27:58,595
when you have multiple, the nature of social interactions, when you have multiple

385
00:27:58,595 --> 00:28:05,615
levels of neurodivergence or autistics is complicated because,

386
00:28:05,675 --> 00:28:07,435
of course, we're not monolithic.

387
00:28:07,755 --> 00:28:13,355
So my challenges with social interactions are different than Avram's.

388
00:28:13,355 --> 00:28:16,235
Right so also often i'm doing all that stuff right

389
00:28:16,235 --> 00:28:18,895
maintaining my own social interactions with women that i've made

390
00:28:18,895 --> 00:28:22,135
friends with watching for your social interactions and if

391
00:28:22,135 --> 00:28:25,255
avram's there that's a whole other level is he

392
00:28:25,255 --> 00:28:28,755
doing inappropriate things is he running around are his pants pulled up is he

393
00:28:28,755 --> 00:28:33,315
eating something he's not supposed to did he get into the wine so that is often

394
00:28:33,315 --> 00:28:37,455
what a social interaction will look like for me we don't mention raya our daughter

395
00:28:37,455 --> 00:28:41,675
a lot because she's essentially an angel like she just she's like one of those

396
00:28:41,675 --> 00:28:43,495
self-raising chia kids i I guess.

397
00:28:44,395 --> 00:28:47,395
But I mean, she's also present and she's wonderful.

398
00:28:47,955 --> 00:28:54,295
And I mean, obviously she has her own challenges, but she is for the most part.

399
00:28:55,075 --> 00:29:00,755
Okay. As far as this type of thing goes, although she does have a number of,

400
00:29:00,775 --> 00:29:05,115
of her own challenges socially, which she is what people would have historically

401
00:29:05,115 --> 00:29:08,735
called painfully shy, painfully shy. Yeah. Yes.

402
00:29:09,275 --> 00:29:12,015
And we, we haven't quite figured out why, why

403
00:29:12,015 --> 00:29:14,855
or if it has if it's just her personality or if

404
00:29:14,855 --> 00:29:18,615
it has something to do with some kind of neurodivergency and we very much like

405
00:29:18,615 --> 00:29:22,815
raya to be a part of the podcast at some point because she's definitely offered

406
00:29:22,815 --> 00:29:27,615
to to be like a guest which would be i think a lot of fun i don't know what

407
00:29:27,615 --> 00:29:32,155
she would talk about but i'm sure it would be interesting and of course avran would just.

408
00:29:33,255 --> 00:29:38,975
Would be would be interesting for sure so the nature of social interactions

409
00:29:38,975 --> 00:29:41,435
as far as neurodivergency goes,

410
00:29:41,655 --> 00:29:46,135
like I said, it's one of the most common things that you often find when you're

411
00:29:46,135 --> 00:29:49,655
describing somebody who is autistic or somebody who's neurodivergent or somebody

412
00:29:49,655 --> 00:29:53,815
who is a little bit different in that respect.

413
00:29:54,115 --> 00:29:59,275
Because along with some of the other challenges that neurodivergence often have,

414
00:29:59,515 --> 00:30:02,415
there come a lot of social challenges.

415
00:30:03,135 --> 00:30:11,155
Some of them are contradictory because you'll have neurodivergents who are excessively

416
00:30:11,155 --> 00:30:16,295
isolating and would go on their own and just do their own thing.

417
00:30:16,375 --> 00:30:20,135
And then you have neurodivergents who are very...

418
00:30:21,206 --> 00:30:26,566
Very social, completely uncontrolled social, like go out to random strangers

419
00:30:26,566 --> 00:30:29,086
and hug them kind of social. Avram is one of those.

420
00:30:29,306 --> 00:30:33,406
You've brought it up many times. He's very popular, and he also has a lot of

421
00:30:33,406 --> 00:30:34,826
capacity for social interaction.

422
00:30:35,486 --> 00:30:40,266
But it's often inappropriate, where he'll go up to strangers on the street and talk to them.

423
00:30:40,506 --> 00:30:44,906
Or when he has a friend, he will spend every waking moment he has with that

424
00:30:44,906 --> 00:30:46,306
friend and not give him a break.

425
00:30:46,446 --> 00:30:50,406
Or, you know, just tell people inappropriate things that he doesn't need to

426
00:30:50,406 --> 00:30:51,446
say to them, etc. et cetera.

427
00:30:52,166 --> 00:30:58,826
Because socializing is kind of like a dance. It has clear steps that people expect.

428
00:30:59,046 --> 00:31:02,226
It has a strong middle as well as a beginning and an end.

429
00:31:02,746 --> 00:31:06,326
Whereas neurotypical person like me won't necessarily see that.

430
00:31:06,386 --> 00:31:09,526
I'm just talking to people, interacting with people and living my life.

431
00:31:09,706 --> 00:31:12,786
When you don't understand a thing, you sort of have to study it.

432
00:31:12,866 --> 00:31:17,666
And that's where I guess Moshe comes up with these techniques and theories that he has.

433
00:31:18,346 --> 00:31:24,546
I have a really interesting relationship with time, as has been mentioned before.

434
00:31:24,786 --> 00:31:29,126
And I'm particularly interested in the concept of beginnings.

435
00:31:29,446 --> 00:31:32,406
Transitions, and ends, and where those fit in.

436
00:31:32,546 --> 00:31:38,966
And my struggles with those particular things has resulted in some really interesting interactions,

437
00:31:39,206 --> 00:31:45,746
because I'm forever trying to understand how to start things,

438
00:31:45,886 --> 00:31:49,206
how to end things, and how to transition between things. Oh, yes.

439
00:31:49,446 --> 00:31:55,106
So, this is actually a subject for a much different podcast that we're not going

440
00:31:55,106 --> 00:32:00,126
to really get into, but intimacy is really interesting when it comes to that. Yes.

441
00:32:00,326 --> 00:32:07,246
And the idea of intimacy actually, for me, works very similar to the idea of

442
00:32:07,246 --> 00:32:13,786
socializing, where I will engage in a conversation to the extent that I feel,

443
00:32:13,886 --> 00:32:16,026
in my own mind, has been sufficient.

444
00:32:16,026 --> 00:32:22,506
And then when it's in my mind again, at an end, I'll just end it.

445
00:32:22,586 --> 00:32:28,966
And if I can't think of a way of ending it, I will just walk away.

446
00:32:28,966 --> 00:32:33,906
The idea of the outro of our podcast,

447
00:32:34,206 --> 00:32:42,426
actually, is hinged on the fact that myself and obviously other neurodivergents

448
00:32:42,426 --> 00:32:46,046
struggle with ending social interactions.

449
00:32:46,126 --> 00:32:49,126
So, if they can't think of a...

450
00:32:50,500 --> 00:32:57,600
Comfortable transition they'll just kind of walk away and just sort of hope that nobody notices.

451
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,740
Where you'll be in the middle of a conversation and you'll

452
00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:08,000
just kind of start going toward the door and usually that that usually they'll

453
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:13,520
just kind of be like okay bye i guess when it's a social interaction it's one

454
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:17,860
thing when it's in a romantic interaction it's very different And we're going

455
00:33:17,860 --> 00:33:20,740
to have probably multiple episodes of that.

456
00:33:21,060 --> 00:33:23,840
Yes. So transitions, very important.

457
00:33:24,380 --> 00:33:31,260
And we can discuss the idea of a social battery that comes up a lot.

458
00:33:31,660 --> 00:33:35,520
It's a foreign concept to a lot of people, but for neurodivergence,

459
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:40,680
again, this is without any concept of if there are studies or if this is a real thing or not.

460
00:33:40,780 --> 00:33:43,240
But I've always had what I consider a social battery.

461
00:33:43,420 --> 00:33:47,960
Sometimes it's 100%, sometimes it's 50%, sometimes it's 25%,

462
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,160
and it can vary based on a number of external and internal factors.

463
00:33:52,180 --> 00:33:55,320
Right. What happens if we let the social battery get to zero, though?

464
00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:58,840
If we let the social battery get to zero, then I need to recharge.

465
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:04,640
For me, recharging involves one of two things. Either I need time by myself

466
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,580
to just shut my brain off to to the extent that I'm able to,

467
00:34:08,660 --> 00:34:12,480
or I can hook myself up to a fast charger,

468
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:16,800
which is you, actually, where if I feel like I'm overwhelmed,

469
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:19,360
I just have to spend some time with Leah.

470
00:34:20,660 --> 00:34:27,260
And not that kind of time, but just being with her, being talking to her,

471
00:34:28,060 --> 00:34:29,560
just being in her presence.

472
00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:34,080
And I find that that will bring my social battery up. And it'll kind of look

473
00:34:34,080 --> 00:34:39,980
like I spent the morning at this event, or alternatively, I woke up in a relatively,

474
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,780
I don't know, we'll say bad mood. I don't like that term, but whatever.

475
00:34:44,140 --> 00:34:47,240
And so therefore, I'm already starting with a low social battery.

476
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:50,080
And what leah will do where she'll

477
00:34:50,080 --> 00:34:52,780
say all right well we have to go to this thing tonight where there's

478
00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:55,560
going to be a lot of people so why don't we spend a

479
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,420
couple of hours just kind of talking and and and i

480
00:34:58,420 --> 00:35:01,420
can like put my arm around you or whatever and get you

481
00:35:01,420 --> 00:35:06,780
to the point where we can go and you'll you'll be able to it'll often be one

482
00:35:06,780 --> 00:35:11,100
of our ideas sometimes you'll come up with it too you say can you just hold

483
00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:14,900
me for a while and i'll know what that means or i'll say why don't you come

484
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:19,540
lie down and i'll rub you for a while again not in that way but physical touch is important.

485
00:35:21,090 --> 00:35:23,850
If we make any more innuendos, we're going to have to put an explicit content

486
00:35:23,850 --> 00:35:24,930
warning on this episode.

487
00:35:25,390 --> 00:35:32,230
Just kidding. No, we're not going to do that. So the nature of communicating

488
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:35,230
your needs is applicable.

489
00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:40,490
This is why we said the first and the second episode of this podcast was that communication,

490
00:35:41,110 --> 00:35:44,510
while we're going to do individual episodes focused on that,

491
00:35:44,590 --> 00:35:50,890
but communication is going to sort of be woven throughout the whole range.

492
00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:56,990
And really, there's no topic that we're going to discuss in however long this

493
00:35:56,990 --> 00:36:02,570
goes on for, hopefully forever, that doesn't have something to do with communication.

494
00:36:02,930 --> 00:36:08,330
Yes, but verbal communication, physical communication, unspoken communication.

495
00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:14,230
There's so many different types of communication. Right. And part of who I am,

496
00:36:14,230 --> 00:36:17,070
and this came like over time

497
00:36:17,070 --> 00:36:21,590
was number one identifying my strengths

498
00:36:21,590 --> 00:36:24,450
and weaknesses when it comes to social interactions what i

499
00:36:24,450 --> 00:36:28,190
do good at what i don't do good at what i need to do in order to get through

500
00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:33,530
things what i need to do in order to feel better at things and that was a challenge

501
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:39,610
because for a long time i would just shut down and isolate and that would be

502
00:36:39,610 --> 00:36:42,550
it and so So we had to work on strategies,

503
00:36:42,710 --> 00:36:44,730
Leigh and I, and I had to work on strategies myself.

504
00:36:45,370 --> 00:36:51,510
And it became a matter of, okay, so you're isolating yourself now.

505
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:56,570
What do you need from me to help you through this? But now what you've kind

506
00:36:56,570 --> 00:36:59,890
of done, knowingly or unknowingly, I don't know if you've done it on purpose,

507
00:37:00,110 --> 00:37:02,590
is you've kind of built this mystique around yourself.

508
00:37:03,110 --> 00:37:07,430
Instead of being, wow, he's rude and annoying and I don't understand him.

509
00:37:07,430 --> 00:37:10,770
And it's like, wow, I wonder what he's so busy about all the time.

510
00:37:10,790 --> 00:37:16,070
I wonder why he's so focused and quiet all the time. There must be something really going on here.

511
00:37:16,930 --> 00:37:19,770
It's honestly a much better picture of Pete for people.

512
00:37:20,289 --> 00:37:26,709
For sure. And this also goes into actually, I want to say, not the last episode,

513
00:37:26,789 --> 00:37:28,789
but the episode before that.

514
00:37:29,329 --> 00:37:33,209
We did an episode, which is actually very popular on YouTube right now,

515
00:37:33,229 --> 00:37:35,169
if you want to check it out, called Do We Creep You Out?

516
00:37:35,949 --> 00:37:40,289
And it's by far our most popular episode of this podcast, surprisingly.

517
00:37:40,769 --> 00:37:44,809
And it has a lot to do with the uncanny valley of autism.

518
00:37:45,029 --> 00:37:48,589
And we talked a lot in that episode. Check it out.

519
00:37:48,609 --> 00:37:52,129
It's available on all podcasting sites. sites on YouTube that have

520
00:37:52,129 --> 00:37:57,549
to do with why it looks really off-putting almost when an autistic person is

521
00:37:57,549 --> 00:38:10,129
really trying hard to human and why it's actually better if they sort of lean into their challenges,

522
00:38:10,569 --> 00:38:11,489
their neurodiversities.

523
00:38:11,549 --> 00:38:16,869
Because what you end up with is, okay, I'm in a social situation.

524
00:38:17,249 --> 00:38:20,649
I'm expected to behave a certain way. I have to look a certain way.

525
00:38:20,849 --> 00:38:25,289
And then you go up to them with this really creepy look on your face and go, hi, how are you?

526
00:38:25,489 --> 00:38:30,109
And they're like, whereas if you were just like, hi, how's it going?

527
00:38:30,889 --> 00:38:34,289
And maybe there'll be questions. Is there something wrong? No,

528
00:38:34,349 --> 00:38:35,669
he's actually autistic.

529
00:38:35,929 --> 00:38:39,769
So he sometimes struggles. People will never ask you the questions.

530
00:38:39,789 --> 00:38:42,209
What they'll do is they'll notice something and then And they'll come up to

531
00:38:42,209 --> 00:38:43,669
me and ask me the questions.

532
00:38:43,889 --> 00:38:48,549
Right. And it often goes something like, is there something like wrong with him?

533
00:38:48,909 --> 00:38:52,329
They'll use the R word a lot, which I think we've used enough for the first

534
00:38:52,329 --> 00:38:55,529
season. No, no, they don't ask me about the R word. That would just be rude.

535
00:38:55,749 --> 00:39:00,429
It often goes like, is something like wrong with him? Right.

536
00:39:01,129 --> 00:39:05,689
And it is, it does come up. Or is he okay? Okay.

537
00:39:06,507 --> 00:39:10,907
Is he okay? I've heard a lot of that. If there's something wrong with him or

538
00:39:10,907 --> 00:39:14,207
the more aggressive form is, what's wrong with him?

539
00:39:15,407 --> 00:39:19,527
And instead of just being like, oh, you know, he's having, he's tired and he's.

540
00:39:19,607 --> 00:39:23,227
No, I'm actually starting to explain it because when people ask you,

541
00:39:23,247 --> 00:39:26,307
especially adults ask you something, they want an answer. And that's the truth.

542
00:39:26,987 --> 00:39:32,027
Because by trying to, to hide your, uh, your neurodivergency or autism,

543
00:39:32,187 --> 00:39:36,167
as we've been taught to do, unfortunately in the past, in order to function.

544
00:39:36,507 --> 00:39:40,647
Because there is a certain level of functionality, right? Because you have to,

545
00:39:40,687 --> 00:39:44,187
we're going to get into, again, I'll bring it up again, but we're definitely

546
00:39:44,187 --> 00:39:45,167
going to have to discuss it.

547
00:39:45,207 --> 00:39:48,767
The concept of reasonable accommodation and unreasonable accommodation.

548
00:39:49,227 --> 00:39:55,067
And you have to accept reasonable accommodations, but it's unreasonable to expect

549
00:39:55,067 --> 00:40:00,387
somebody to just be rude, off-putting, arrogant, never wanting to interact with

550
00:40:00,387 --> 00:40:02,627
anyone and just shutting down conversations unless.

551
00:40:02,747 --> 00:40:07,547
Everybody to be okay with. You know, if you're like an eccentric billionaire

552
00:40:07,547 --> 00:40:17,247
who creates their own technology or whatever, then you can kind of be a little bit more off-putting.

553
00:40:17,247 --> 00:40:23,067
But if you're just a regular schmo like me, you kind of have to develop a baseline

554
00:40:23,067 --> 00:40:27,467
of, okay, so we're going to be at this place for a while and you're going to have to talk to people.

555
00:40:27,467 --> 00:40:31,547
But in order for me to become your armor in that way, like when people do notice

556
00:40:31,547 --> 00:40:33,647
the uncanny valley and go, what's wrong with him?

557
00:40:33,947 --> 00:40:37,887
I'd had to get over an interesting concept of my own, which was not wanting

558
00:40:37,887 --> 00:40:39,667
to out you without your permission.

559
00:40:40,407 --> 00:40:45,567
And the reality is, as you became more comfortable with your diagnosis and yourself

560
00:40:45,567 --> 00:40:49,227
and accepting yourself, that became less of a thing for me.

561
00:40:50,207 --> 00:40:55,887
It's really one of those things that we're told to do a certain thing,

562
00:40:56,027 --> 00:40:59,147
but it actually ends up harming us rather than helping us.

563
00:40:59,567 --> 00:41:05,827
Because as you would often tell me, like, why are you so ashamed of who you are?

564
00:41:05,967 --> 00:41:08,947
It's who you are. Like, just be you.

565
00:41:09,367 --> 00:41:12,667
Stop trying to be someone else because it's frankly kind of creepy.

566
00:41:12,827 --> 00:41:14,927
And just be yourself. Right.

567
00:41:15,127 --> 00:41:19,327
And if people don't like it, well, I guess that's their tough luck.

568
00:41:19,567 --> 00:41:22,707
Yeah, but there was a time where you would have been mortified if I had read

569
00:41:22,707 --> 00:41:24,307
you as autistic to other people.

570
00:41:24,607 --> 00:41:29,407
And it's unfortunately one of those things that a lot of autistics struggle with,

571
00:41:29,587 --> 00:41:33,207
especially adult autistics, especially late diagnosed autistics,

572
00:41:33,327 --> 00:41:40,187
who kind of treat being autistic like, you know, it's something that we don't like talk about.

573
00:41:40,487 --> 00:41:45,547
Right. It's one of those things. Yes, because we were raised in a society where

574
00:41:45,547 --> 00:41:51,807
autism, again, equaled the R word, and it's not necessarily something that we're

575
00:41:51,807 --> 00:41:53,327
told that we can be proud of.

576
00:41:53,687 --> 00:42:00,047
Now, again, that having been said, you don't want to...

577
00:42:00,890 --> 00:42:06,410
Be unreasonably demanding accommodations because certain things are accepting

578
00:42:06,410 --> 00:42:10,050
and certain things are not accepting and certain things are reasonable and certain

579
00:42:10,050 --> 00:42:11,430
things are not reasonable.

580
00:42:11,750 --> 00:42:18,770
Going into a room where there's a lot of people and staying in one side of the

581
00:42:18,770 --> 00:42:22,730
room and letting people approach you and asking for,

582
00:42:22,930 --> 00:42:28,890
you know, certain allowances based on your own sensibilities is reasonable,

583
00:42:29,150 --> 00:42:34,690
demanding that everyone, you know, lower their volume and turn the lights in the room down.

584
00:42:35,050 --> 00:42:39,630
And each interaction that they have with you has to be a maximum of five minutes

585
00:42:39,630 --> 00:42:41,410
because that's as much as I can handle.

586
00:42:41,550 --> 00:42:46,370
Right. Again, then you're getting onto rich, you know. You're not the king of the world.

587
00:42:46,490 --> 00:42:50,030
You're just Moshe. Like, you don't get to tell people to turn the lights down

588
00:42:50,030 --> 00:42:53,330
so you can make a grand entrance and feel comfortable.

589
00:42:53,690 --> 00:42:58,110
Exactly. You know. So I'm going to segue us into another subject that's really

590
00:42:58,110 --> 00:43:00,310
interesting because, as always, we're running out of time.

591
00:43:00,550 --> 00:43:04,810
We never seem to have enough time. Again, time is an interesting concept in our relationship.

592
00:43:05,070 --> 00:43:08,150
We're going to do an episode just on time, and I guarantee you that episode's

593
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:09,630
going to run over time, too. Right.

594
00:43:10,710 --> 00:43:15,710
So I'm going to segue us into a different thing. So Moshe has this thing,

595
00:43:15,810 --> 00:43:20,350
and I haven't done research or anything, but I'm willing to bet that a lot of

596
00:43:20,350 --> 00:43:22,450
autistics have this thing where they have a person.

597
00:43:22,750 --> 00:43:27,670
And that person is their person. It's their one person, and it's a security

598
00:43:27,670 --> 00:43:32,610
person, and how dare that person not be available for them at all times when they need them?

599
00:43:33,070 --> 00:43:37,710
So what I want to discuss is how to deal with when your partner wants you to

600
00:43:37,710 --> 00:43:41,890
themselves all the time, but you have other responsibilities.

601
00:43:43,810 --> 00:43:45,830
Yes, and it's...

602
00:43:46,693 --> 00:43:51,233
It's very challenging in our circumstances because we did spend far too much

603
00:43:51,233 --> 00:43:53,113
of our life away from each other.

604
00:43:53,493 --> 00:43:58,093
So there's also the sense of, hey, you know what? You got to live your life

605
00:43:58,093 --> 00:44:00,013
away from me. Now I get to have you.

606
00:44:00,173 --> 00:44:03,573
Right. I feel that way too, but in a more reasonable level. Right.

607
00:44:03,913 --> 00:44:13,913
And a lot of it really does have to go with the concept of trust and comfort in autism.

608
00:44:13,913 --> 00:44:19,093
Autism and autistics often, and I say often, cause again, one autistic,

609
00:44:19,353 --> 00:44:26,733
they often have hyper focuses that are related to either an idea or an object

610
00:44:26,733 --> 00:44:30,793
or a place or a type of thing,

611
00:44:30,873 --> 00:44:34,593
but it's actually a relatively, I don't know.

612
00:44:34,633 --> 00:44:37,633
I don't even know if it's common or uncommon. I can't say for sure.

613
00:44:37,873 --> 00:44:41,113
We'd have to actually talk to other autistics and they'd have to be honest.

614
00:44:41,893 --> 00:44:45,033
But a lot of the time, it can end up being a person.

615
00:44:45,373 --> 00:44:50,573
And when an autistic forms a hyperfocus on a person, it can be a very healthy thing.

616
00:44:50,693 --> 00:44:55,493
Because instead of clinging to something that would not necessarily be,

617
00:44:55,633 --> 00:45:03,193
you know, socially acceptable or possible, you sort of have carrying around

618
00:45:03,193 --> 00:45:05,653
a swish mellow because I like to squeeze it and whatever.

619
00:45:05,973 --> 00:45:09,973
I was the kind of person that always wanted to be in a relationship.

620
00:45:09,973 --> 00:45:17,273
And I was the kind of person who always wanted to have someone who I could depend on,

621
00:45:17,333 --> 00:45:21,653
because one of my challenges was that I never really had too many people in

622
00:45:21,653 --> 00:45:24,993
my life that I could 100% trust.

623
00:45:25,413 --> 00:45:30,553
And Leah has spent decades actually working on developing that trust in me,

624
00:45:30,673 --> 00:45:34,433
and to the extent that we had a lot of...

625
00:45:35,117 --> 00:45:38,297
Things to work through at the latest incarnation of our relationship,

626
00:45:38,597 --> 00:45:42,797
what we developed is very, very close bond.

627
00:45:43,317 --> 00:45:48,977
And that's why when I say something like I need to lie down or I need to be

628
00:45:48,977 --> 00:45:53,797
alone or I need to, I'm overstimulated, I need to be away from all of this.

629
00:45:54,617 --> 00:46:01,777
My expectation is either that that either involves Leah or that it can easily

630
00:46:01,777 --> 00:46:07,897
include Leah and she becomes sort of the background for me, or actually will suit it.

631
00:46:08,017 --> 00:46:13,937
And when I'm away from Leah, a lot of the time I feel anxious and uncomfortable.

632
00:46:14,597 --> 00:46:18,257
Which you could argue is my natural state a lot of the time,

633
00:46:18,257 --> 00:46:20,457
but it's not as much as it used to be.

634
00:46:20,837 --> 00:46:25,977
But it is, when you have that security blanket, when you have that squishmallow,

635
00:46:26,137 --> 00:46:32,117
when you have that, you know, toy or that thing that you like like to cling

636
00:46:32,117 --> 00:46:37,277
to and hold that makes you feel safe and that thing happens to be a person.

637
00:46:37,937 --> 00:46:42,417
Then you you need to discover that

638
00:46:42,417 --> 00:46:45,117
they they have they're not like

639
00:46:45,117 --> 00:46:48,177
a squish mellow you can squish the squish mellow and it's not going to be like

640
00:46:48,177 --> 00:46:52,197
hey you know what i i gotta go we have literally had some conversations where

641
00:46:52,197 --> 00:46:55,697
i'm like do you know that i'm also a person with thoughts and feelings i need

642
00:46:55,697 --> 00:47:01,797
and you're like oh yeah like i knew it but i know it know it yes so So let's

643
00:47:01,797 --> 00:47:03,197
talk about that. Let's take a step back.

644
00:47:03,816 --> 00:47:07,396
And that's also a really interesting thing in and of itself.

645
00:47:07,696 --> 00:47:13,596
Sort of the, we talked about empathy and all that stuff, but people in general

646
00:47:13,596 --> 00:47:16,276
tend to be the main character in their own life.

647
00:47:16,456 --> 00:47:20,696
And for autistics, I think that's just a little bit more intense in terms of

648
00:47:20,696 --> 00:47:23,616
they don't even necessarily understand that the other characters have their

649
00:47:23,616 --> 00:47:25,956
own character arcs, let's say.

650
00:47:26,396 --> 00:47:31,516
And that's been difficult. But also another thing, the way it will look often

651
00:47:31,516 --> 00:47:38,696
is that Moshe just wants time to me or with me to himself and doesn't want other people interacting.

652
00:47:38,776 --> 00:47:42,076
The issue with that is that we have a family and we have children and we have

653
00:47:42,076 --> 00:47:44,136
friends and we have other responsibilities.

654
00:47:44,616 --> 00:47:48,176
So what does that look like? To me, often it looks like compromise.

655
00:47:48,896 --> 00:47:54,316
So it really definitely does have to look like compromise because Leigh and

656
00:47:54,316 --> 00:47:59,116
I have a really interesting relationship because in, again,

657
00:47:59,476 --> 00:48:04,016
I'll use the N word here, in a normal cupper, we're going to leave that one

658
00:48:04,016 --> 00:48:05,536
in. We're going to leave that in.

659
00:48:06,396 --> 00:48:11,496
In a normal couple, cupper. We're going to put that one on a t-shirt.

660
00:48:11,496 --> 00:48:13,376
You're such a cute cupper. We're a great cupper.

661
00:48:15,216 --> 00:48:18,576
That's definitely going on a t-shirt. So, in a normal couple,

662
00:48:19,036 --> 00:48:23,376
you have one partner has their interest and one partner has their interests

663
00:48:23,376 --> 00:48:27,776
and then they have couple interests and sometimes they're together and sometimes

664
00:48:27,776 --> 00:48:31,856
they're apart and they have their lives and they just kind of live them.

665
00:48:31,996 --> 00:48:36,656
And unless you're in like a codependent relationship or an abusive relationship,

666
00:48:37,116 --> 00:48:42,516
you generally allow for the independence of each person to be their own entity

667
00:48:42,516 --> 00:48:45,536
that allows them to live their life separate from the other.

668
00:48:45,536 --> 00:48:53,776
But it's not an exaggeration to say that I am never tired of being around Leah

669
00:48:53,776 --> 00:49:00,896
and there's actually no thing that I could do that requires me to not be with her.

670
00:49:01,647 --> 00:49:08,067
And for me, that's got a positive and a negative because when I.

671
00:49:08,967 --> 00:49:13,887
Okay, so if you have a hyper focus on trains, again, I'm stereotyping here and

672
00:49:13,887 --> 00:49:15,847
I'm very sorry if your hyper focus is on trains.

673
00:49:16,027 --> 00:49:19,807
Trains are very fascinating and it's not my particular focus,

674
00:49:19,887 --> 00:49:23,547
but we can definitely have a conversation about trains if you want to.

675
00:49:23,767 --> 00:49:28,267
But if you have a hyper focus on trains and you constantly talk about trains

676
00:49:28,267 --> 00:49:35,007
and all you do is say, I want trains. You know about the Amtrak 742 has an engine

677
00:49:35,007 --> 00:49:36,467
that's like two kilometers.

678
00:49:36,707 --> 00:49:43,887
Anyway, the problem with that is eventually you end up in a situation where

679
00:49:43,887 --> 00:49:47,627
people are like, you know, I don't really want to talk about trains right now.

680
00:49:48,047 --> 00:49:51,927
So can we maybe talk about something else? But when instead of you're focused

681
00:49:51,927 --> 00:49:58,107
on trains, you're focused on a person, you have the same kind of reaction where

682
00:49:58,107 --> 00:50:00,787
you're like, I have to go do a thing.

683
00:50:00,907 --> 00:50:06,747
And you're like, but trains though, like I need you to, I need you to just be you.

684
00:50:06,847 --> 00:50:10,487
Like I need you to be with me all the time. And just like you cling to your

685
00:50:10,487 --> 00:50:15,787
idea or your topic or your focus or your interest, I cling to my person.

686
00:50:15,847 --> 00:50:19,767
And I'm like, I don't want to talk about other people. I want to talk about

687
00:50:19,767 --> 00:50:23,907
you and me and, and us not in the, in the weird, creepy sense,

688
00:50:24,027 --> 00:50:30,107
just in the sense that sometimes I feel a certain way and I like Leah to be

689
00:50:30,107 --> 00:50:33,447
close and it's oftentimes very sweet.

690
00:50:33,527 --> 00:50:39,907
And if she's not around, I don't always feel great, but it's gotten to the point

691
00:50:39,907 --> 00:50:45,267
now where she's able to go and do her own thing. Well, let's talk about techniques.

692
00:50:45,407 --> 00:50:47,367
So when I'm not near you, I text you a lot.

693
00:50:47,907 --> 00:50:54,767
I call you. I'll send you memes and stuff that I like or videos or stories that

694
00:50:54,767 --> 00:50:56,187
I like and I think are pertinent.

695
00:50:56,387 --> 00:50:59,767
I will find a way to keep touch even if I'm doing other things.

696
00:50:59,887 --> 00:51:03,127
And that tends to help because what used to happen, honestly,

697
00:51:03,387 --> 00:51:07,367
is when I would leave for any amount of time and not keep in touch,

698
00:51:07,407 --> 00:51:11,247
then it would actually cause a fight because I'd come back and you'd be in such a bad mood.

699
00:51:11,247 --> 00:51:14,827
And then instead of us rejoining and enjoying our time together,

700
00:51:14,947 --> 00:51:16,927
it would cause a disagreement. Right.

701
00:51:17,327 --> 00:51:23,727
And Leah and I would often actually have arguments that were based around the

702
00:51:23,727 --> 00:51:27,607
fact that I demanded more time with her.

703
00:51:27,687 --> 00:51:30,887
And I would say of all the disagreements that a couple might have.

704
00:51:31,903 --> 00:51:35,903
The fact that they're fighting about wanting to spend more time together seems

705
00:51:35,903 --> 00:51:39,843
a bit strange on the surface. It's absolutely the sweetest fight ever.

706
00:51:40,043 --> 00:51:44,843
But in our life with all the moving parts, sometimes it wasn't appropriate and we had to work that out.

707
00:51:45,023 --> 00:51:48,643
We do. So now what we do is what I consider touch points.

708
00:51:49,163 --> 00:51:54,543
Because as much as I love when Leah will touch my shoulder or hold my hand or

709
00:51:54,543 --> 00:51:58,223
give me a hug or give me a kiss or just kind of stand next to me.

710
00:51:58,223 --> 00:52:04,363
If it's not possible because of the busyness of our life, sending me a meme

711
00:52:04,363 --> 00:52:09,703
or texting me a heart or just looking at me and being silly or smiling,

712
00:52:10,083 --> 00:52:13,863
it's like she's hugging my heart.

713
00:52:14,003 --> 00:52:22,903
And it makes me feel better, even though we're not spending the amount of time together that I'd like.

714
00:52:22,903 --> 00:52:25,683
And of course there there there is

715
00:52:25,683 --> 00:52:28,823
times during the day or evening when we

716
00:52:28,823 --> 00:52:31,663
do put aside time where we're just that's another thing that's

717
00:52:31,663 --> 00:52:35,303
another compromise and both of us have a tendency to be a little bit insecure

718
00:52:35,303 --> 00:52:39,303
because of the amount of time that we've had to spend apart and we're actually

719
00:52:39,303 --> 00:52:44,463
hoping that that will go away as as the years progress but that remains to be

720
00:52:44,463 --> 00:52:48,503
seen so another compromise we make is that we promise each other time later

721
00:52:48,503 --> 00:52:51,183
okay so you're done this thing at 11 p.m.

722
00:52:51,183 --> 00:52:55,923
I'm going to put the kids to bed and we're going to spend an hour together before we go to sleep.

723
00:52:56,143 --> 00:52:59,783
And that will often make one or both of us feel a lot better.

724
00:53:00,583 --> 00:53:06,123
It's also based on importance. And again, this might be a bit of a foreign concept

725
00:53:06,123 --> 00:53:12,243
to people that don't have the same attachment that we do, but it's basically

726
00:53:12,243 --> 00:53:15,443
like, I'm feeling like I need more time with you.

727
00:53:15,443 --> 00:53:20,963
Is my need for more time with you more important than what we're currently doing?

728
00:53:21,283 --> 00:53:25,903
If not, then can it wait until later? And if so, then can we compromise?

729
00:53:26,283 --> 00:53:34,283
I can't, you know, stay home tonight, for example, but how about we just sit

730
00:53:34,283 --> 00:53:37,343
and watch like a TV show for half an hour together?

731
00:53:37,343 --> 00:53:41,723
Together and I'll put my arm around you and we'll just spend time doing that.

732
00:53:42,083 --> 00:53:46,703
But then I do have to go. So sometimes there can be alternatives than,

733
00:53:46,703 --> 00:53:51,003
than just, I need you to drop everything and just be there with me.

734
00:53:51,563 --> 00:53:54,863
And it makes it a lot easier to operate. Touchstones.

735
00:53:55,023 --> 00:54:00,103
I'll pour you, he works from home, so I can see him and he can see me often

736
00:54:00,103 --> 00:54:01,603
because we're in the same space.

737
00:54:01,643 --> 00:54:04,603
So touchstones, I'll pour you a glass of wine and bring it to you.

738
00:54:04,843 --> 00:54:06,943
I'll pour you a coffee and bring it to you.

739
00:54:07,343 --> 00:54:10,183
Dinner time, you know, right, or I will bring you food.

740
00:54:10,223 --> 00:54:15,103
Those actually do help versus if you were out of the house, I think the coming

741
00:54:15,103 --> 00:54:17,463
back together adjustment would be more difficult.

742
00:54:17,963 --> 00:54:21,343
Yes, and it's certainly a lot easier than it's ever been now.

743
00:54:21,743 --> 00:54:27,743
There was always going to be the initial feeling that what if I...

744
00:54:29,086 --> 00:54:35,326
Come home and she's not there? Or what if something is going on and I miss it?

745
00:54:35,686 --> 00:54:40,186
Or what if there was something that I needed to do, but I forgot?

746
00:54:40,746 --> 00:54:46,106
Or I decided I was going to go to synagogue and she absolutely needed me there

747
00:54:46,106 --> 00:54:50,166
with her for some reason that I wasn't aware of. I can explain to him.

748
00:54:50,386 --> 00:54:53,926
So there was a lot of that. I only need two things. I'm really simple where that's come to.

749
00:54:54,046 --> 00:54:57,466
I want him to wake me because he's an early riser and I'm not.

750
00:54:57,566 --> 00:54:59,166
That's always been the case, actually.

751
00:54:59,526 --> 00:55:02,686
So I want him to wake me and kiss me goodbye so I know he's gone.

752
00:55:02,986 --> 00:55:06,286
And then I explain to him, cell phones exist. They're a thing.

753
00:55:06,626 --> 00:55:11,426
If I need you, you're a 10-minute walk away and I have a cell phone. Right.

754
00:55:12,486 --> 00:55:17,986
And it's definitely gotten a lot better. And like Leah mentioned, we have a family.

755
00:55:18,146 --> 00:55:26,166
So there's definitely a need for us to split ways and occasionally parent the children.

756
00:55:27,566 --> 00:55:33,986
More than occasionally. Yes. So we can't spend too much time together to the

757
00:55:33,986 --> 00:55:40,806
point that Raya has mentioned that we spend so much time together that she misses

758
00:55:40,806 --> 00:55:43,326
both of us and wants to spend more time with us.

759
00:55:44,026 --> 00:55:47,966
We have a ritual that when we're not working at night, we watch a show that

760
00:55:47,966 --> 00:55:50,486
we all like together. And she sits on the couch with us.

761
00:55:51,946 --> 00:55:57,326
And it's actually really, it's an interesting topic that I would like to delve more into.

762
00:55:57,486 --> 00:56:02,426
And it has a lot to do with raising children as an autistic parent.

763
00:56:03,046 --> 00:56:11,206
Because as an autistic adult, you have responsibilities, presumably, if you have a family.

764
00:56:11,206 --> 00:56:15,786
I mean, the idea of calling it an autistic parent implies that you have children,

765
00:56:15,946 --> 00:56:19,186
I mean, I guess, in some respect.

766
00:56:19,346 --> 00:56:23,906
But if you're an autistic person and you have decided to enter into a relationship,

767
00:56:24,186 --> 00:56:29,066
and as often happens in the course of being in the relationship and doing the

768
00:56:29,066 --> 00:56:31,566
things that relationships involve, children happen.

769
00:56:31,566 --> 00:56:39,726
And then you have to get into balancing your needs as an autistic person versus

770
00:56:39,726 --> 00:56:44,006
your needs as the husband or the wife, I guess,

771
00:56:44,146 --> 00:56:49,746
of an autistic co-parent and being an autistic parent to a child,

772
00:56:49,826 --> 00:56:51,346
which may or may not also be autistic,

773
00:56:51,666 --> 00:56:54,426
which is another interesting topic to get into.

774
00:56:54,706 --> 00:56:58,466
We should do an entire episode on the genetic testing that we went through.

775
00:56:59,146 --> 00:57:03,686
We will. And I would absolutely love to do that because you,

776
00:57:03,766 --> 00:57:07,126
you, we talk a lot about Avram and of course he's autistic and I'm autistic.

777
00:57:07,306 --> 00:57:11,926
So we have an interesting dynamic, but a lot of autistic parents.

778
00:57:13,017 --> 00:57:17,057
Do not have autistic children. Like it's not a disease that we pass on to other

779
00:57:17,057 --> 00:57:20,817
people. It often happens. The science is out on that, really.

780
00:57:21,017 --> 00:57:24,557
I mean, yes and no. It's not a disease, period. I don't want to imply that it

781
00:57:24,557 --> 00:57:28,377
is. It's not a disease, but it's absolutely genetic. But it's not guaranteed, necessarily.

782
00:57:29,157 --> 00:57:34,037
It's a 50-50. It's a 50-50. And if you're an autistic parent and you have an

783
00:57:34,037 --> 00:57:37,937
autistic child and you have to deal with your own needs

784
00:57:38,377 --> 00:57:43,797
versus the needs of now a newborn infant, it can get interesting And as we say

785
00:57:43,797 --> 00:57:47,997
in Judaism, bizrat Hashem, which means by the grace of God, we'll be discussing

786
00:57:47,997 --> 00:57:50,617
that more in detail at a future episode.

787
00:57:51,097 --> 00:57:54,997
And I'll leave that, just I'll put that down for now. As always,

788
00:57:55,117 --> 00:57:58,417
we've gone over, but there's one more topic that I need to discuss real quick.

789
00:57:58,757 --> 00:58:03,997
So let's discuss the appropriateness of when to rescue your neurodivergent partner

790
00:58:03,997 --> 00:58:07,957
in a social situation and when to actually let them hang there a little bit

791
00:58:07,957 --> 00:58:11,437
and be uncomfortable for the purposes of growth of themselves.

792
00:58:12,997 --> 00:58:18,317
The, the unfortunate-ness of having an autistic child,

793
00:58:18,557 --> 00:58:22,657
but also an autistic adult, especially if you, if you are the partner of an

794
00:58:22,657 --> 00:58:27,157
autistic person, is you have to love them. And of course you love them.

795
00:58:27,197 --> 00:58:28,117
Why wouldn't you love them?

796
00:58:28,417 --> 00:58:35,377
Autistic people are adorable. No. They are. But we're also developmentally delayed in some respects.

797
00:58:35,577 --> 00:58:40,257
And that is not, and when autistic, that is literally the definition of autism. Yeah.

798
00:58:40,897 --> 00:58:46,237
So when you encounter a delay, whether it's a social delay or an emotional delay

799
00:58:46,237 --> 00:58:49,757
or a physical delay or a psychological delay or some kind of delay,

800
00:58:50,097 --> 00:58:52,437
then you have two choices.

801
00:58:52,537 --> 00:58:57,297
You could either accommodate, and again, we're getting into reasonable versus

802
00:58:57,297 --> 00:59:02,337
unreasonable accommodation, or you can allow them to grow.

803
00:59:02,337 --> 00:59:05,897
And sometimes growth can look a bit

804
00:59:05,897 --> 00:59:11,217
weird because if you are the partner of an autistic person and that particular

805
00:59:11,217 --> 00:59:15,857
autistic person struggles in social interactions and you end up seeing them

806
00:59:15,857 --> 00:59:19,637
in a social interaction and you know them well enough and you care about them

807
00:59:19,637 --> 00:59:22,817
enough to see that they're uncomfortable, you have to make a decision.

808
00:59:22,957 --> 00:59:30,097
Do I go in and rescue them or do I allow them to try and figure it out on their

809
00:59:30,097 --> 00:59:31,777
own? Can I be honest with you?

810
00:59:32,357 --> 00:59:36,197
Whenever I'm making that decision, I always err on the side of letting you be

811
00:59:36,197 --> 00:59:39,677
a little bit uncomfortable. And I'll tell you why. It's not because I'm cruel.

812
00:59:40,097 --> 00:59:43,597
It's because I actually trust your ability to grow more.

813
00:59:44,499 --> 00:59:49,839
From being discomforted in a situation. Yes, and this is exactly where we get

814
00:59:49,839 --> 00:59:52,519
into that little woven thread of communication.

815
00:59:53,939 --> 00:59:57,119
Because we'll have a conversation, usually after the fact,

816
00:59:57,299 --> 01:00:00,339
and it's a lot more constructive now than it's been in the past,

817
01:00:00,419 --> 01:00:01,559
and I'll freely admit that,

818
01:00:01,699 --> 01:00:05,059
where I'll be like, you know what, I was in that thing,

819
01:00:05,159 --> 01:00:07,879
and these people were talking to me,

820
01:00:07,919 --> 01:00:11,679
and I was really uncomfortable, uncomfortable and you know

821
01:00:11,679 --> 01:00:15,399
where were you or like what was going on and over

822
01:00:15,399 --> 01:00:18,599
time Leigh and I have had discussions and it's really

823
01:00:18,599 --> 01:00:22,239
sort of come down to okay so I'm I wanted

824
01:00:22,239 --> 01:00:26,639
you to be able to figure this out on your own because if you find yourself in

825
01:00:26,639 --> 01:00:33,179
a situation that makes you uncomfortable you have to be able to say I am no

826
01:00:33,179 --> 01:00:36,199
longer comfortable in this situation I mean you wouldn't necessarily say that

827
01:00:36,199 --> 01:00:38,859
to a person you're talking to because they'd be like I don't understand on what you're talking about,

828
01:00:38,959 --> 01:00:44,259
but you have to know what to do in order to get out of the conversation.

829
01:00:44,519 --> 01:00:46,099
And you can do it completely reasonably.

830
01:00:47,019 --> 01:00:51,679
It was great talking to you. I have to go. And then just walk away.

831
01:00:52,199 --> 01:00:57,199
It's that simple. You can just scream, I'm leaving now, but that's less acceptable.

832
01:00:58,079 --> 01:01:02,499
And they might wonder. No, but it's true. The conversations used to go,

833
01:01:03,099 --> 01:01:04,459
didn't you see I was uncomfortable?

834
01:01:04,599 --> 01:01:08,079
Where were you to rescue me? To now, I mean, like, Like I was kind of uncomfortable

835
01:01:08,079 --> 01:01:11,999
in that situation. And that was directly related to my response to you.

836
01:01:12,339 --> 01:01:14,979
Because when you would get mad at me, I'd get mad at you. And I'd say,

837
01:01:15,039 --> 01:01:16,659
I saw that you were uncomfortable.

838
01:01:17,059 --> 01:01:20,079
I also think you've got this. You need to try.

839
01:01:21,102 --> 01:01:26,762
You have to try. And I am definitely someone who likes to challenge myself.

840
01:01:27,162 --> 01:01:30,702
I am a father. I am a husband.

841
01:01:31,002 --> 01:01:34,222
I am an employee to the extent that I am.

842
01:01:34,302 --> 01:01:41,642
I am living in a country where at this time, I'm not fluent in the native language quite yet.

843
01:01:41,802 --> 01:01:47,042
So I'm no stranger to putting myself in uncomfortable situations.

844
01:01:47,642 --> 01:01:51,562
And that's what I want. And I've actually told Leah, If you have the option,

845
01:01:51,782 --> 01:01:56,222
I would actually like if you could allow me to try and figure things out on

846
01:01:56,222 --> 01:02:03,342
my own because it helps me to grow as a person and develop my own ability to identify my own needs.

847
01:02:03,842 --> 01:02:08,862
And being able to identify your needs is applicable whether you're talking about

848
01:02:08,862 --> 01:02:11,222
a five-year-old autistic or a 50-year-old autistic.

849
01:02:11,942 --> 01:02:16,822
It's all about, this is how I'm feeling. This is how I'm going to share that

850
01:02:16,822 --> 01:02:21,382
with other people. rather than stepping in and going, Moshe's done for the day. He's leaving now.

851
01:02:21,802 --> 01:02:28,722
Because then you're just allowing this autistic person to be in this permanent

852
01:02:28,722 --> 01:02:31,942
immature state where they never have to fight their own battles.

853
01:02:32,282 --> 01:02:37,762
And you constantly have to be there to manage them.

854
01:02:38,222 --> 01:02:43,142
Now, the one exception I do have to say, and this requires you to be very attuned

855
01:02:43,142 --> 01:02:47,062
to your or autistic individual, is if I see a meltdown is imminent,

856
01:02:47,282 --> 01:02:48,702
I will absolutely intervene.

857
01:02:49,802 --> 01:02:55,042
But you have to know the very early signs of them, and you have to understand

858
01:02:55,042 --> 01:02:57,522
what they are, and you have to respect them. For sure.

859
01:02:57,942 --> 01:03:01,602
Because, I mean, there's helping your autistic person grow. Because there's

860
01:03:01,602 --> 01:03:05,542
a point where you can stop it, and then there's a point of no return where you can't.

861
01:03:05,562 --> 01:03:09,242
And then you really don't want to be at a dinner party and explain why your

862
01:03:09,242 --> 01:03:10,402
husband is on the phone crying.

863
01:03:10,662 --> 01:03:16,422
Right. Because again, we had a conversation the other day, actually, about where,

864
01:03:17,411 --> 01:03:25,551
you know, being tough or being harsh or being firm transitions into being cruel.

865
01:03:26,051 --> 01:03:31,391
And if you are allowing your person, whether they be your child or your partner,

866
01:03:31,511 --> 01:03:35,131
to figure out a situation that makes them uncomfortable,

867
01:03:35,371 --> 01:03:39,591
and it's clear that they're not doing well and they need out,

868
01:03:39,831 --> 01:03:44,571
then that's not the moment to go, well, this is an experience for them to figure out.

869
01:03:44,671 --> 01:03:47,871
That's where you step in and you say, okay. Because a lot of autistics struggle

870
01:03:47,871 --> 01:03:49,811
with social interactions.

871
01:03:49,951 --> 01:03:52,751
That's been the entire theme of this episode.

872
01:03:52,971 --> 01:03:59,231
If a child is struggling to learn how to ride a bicycle, do you just give up

873
01:03:59,231 --> 01:04:01,031
on your bicycle or do you put training wheels?

874
01:04:01,411 --> 01:04:05,751
Right. And socially speaking, I feel that I'm your training wheels.

875
01:04:05,951 --> 01:04:11,311
Therefore, I let you go off and bike to the best of your ability.

876
01:04:11,931 --> 01:04:17,851
But if you really can't handle the bicycle anymore, That that's where the training

877
01:04:17,851 --> 01:04:19,671
wheel part comes up. Right.

878
01:04:20,111 --> 01:04:24,671
So that is, that is social interactions and it's great to be back.

879
01:04:25,091 --> 01:04:31,971
And if you have any comments or concerns or queries or conundrums or complaints,

880
01:04:32,231 --> 01:04:34,751
definitely let us know. Or even just want to say hi.

881
01:04:34,891 --> 01:04:39,811
Yes. Our email again is contact us at now, you know, one autistic.com.

882
01:04:40,251 --> 01:04:44,111
All literally everywhere on social media. Just look that up. We were on YouTube.

883
01:04:44,191 --> 01:04:49,131
You can comment or like those. You can find us on Apple Podcasts and Spotify

884
01:04:49,131 --> 01:04:51,351
and Podchaser and a bunch of other ones.

885
01:04:51,391 --> 01:04:54,811
Basically, if you Google search Now You Know One Autistic Podcast,

886
01:04:55,171 --> 01:04:56,031
you'll find us somewhere.

887
01:04:56,911 --> 01:05:01,131
We get around. And yeah, so that's how that's going to go.

888
01:05:02,391 --> 01:05:07,111
Well, that's our show for today. Now You Know One Autistic, just a little bit better.

889
01:05:07,771 --> 01:05:15,031
So something you know about some autistics is that we often struggle with ending social interactions.

890
01:05:16,071 --> 01:05:20,271
So, Leah? All right, Moshe, I'll take care of it.

891
01:05:20,611 --> 01:05:24,631
Thank you for listening to Now You Know One Autistic. See you next week.

892
01:05:25,040 --> 01:05:32,533
Music.