Neurodiversity and Abuse: Healing Together

Episode Title: Neurodiversity and Abuse: Healing Together

Episode Number: 13

Release Date: June 16, 2024

Duration: 01:01:39

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah delve into the complexities of abuse in neurodiverse relationships. They define various forms of abuse, including physical, emotional, sexual, financial, and neglect, emphasizing that abuse can occur in any relationship dynamic. The hosts share personal experiences and discuss the challenges of recognizing and addressing abuse, particularly in relationships involving neurodivergent individuals. They highlight the importance of communication, understanding, and seeking help when needed.

Key Takeaways:

• Defining Abuse: The episode provides a comprehensive definition of abuse, encompassing its various forms and highlighting the power dynamics often involved.
• Abuse in Neurodiverse Relationships: Moshe and Leah discuss the unique challenges and vulnerabilities faced by both neurotypical and neurodivergent individuals in abusive relationships.
• The Importance of Communication: The hosts emphasize the crucial role of open communication in identifying, addressing, and preventing abuse.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The different types of abuse and their nuanced manifestations.
• The specific challenges faced by neurodiverse couples in navigating abusive situations.
• The importance of seeking help and support if you or someone you know is experiencing abuse.

Quotes:

• "Anyone can become a victim of abuse. It is no reflection of their intelligence, strength, or worth." - Leah
• "If you or someone that you care about is or may be the victim of abuse, we have included a selection of resources in the episode description." - Moshe

Resources & Links:

• The National Domestic Violence Hotline
• Childhelp USA
• The Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN)

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Subscribe & Review:

If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the podcast and click the Like button! Your feedback helps us reach more listeners and improve the show.

Transcript:

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Moshe: Welcome to a special episode of now you
know one autistic.

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This week we'll be discussing the topic of
abuse in relationships, specifically

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relationships between neurotypicals and
neurodivergents.

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In researching this topic, we reached out to
people across various social media platforms

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and asked them to share their experiences of
abuse with us.

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We read everything that was sent to us and we
chose a selection of the stories to talk about

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today.

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A lot of the stories that were sent to us

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involved subject matter that was either too
graphic to feel comfortable discussing in this

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form, or involved subjects that Leah and I are
simply not qualified to discuss with the

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depths of understanding necessary to be
helpful.

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In the end, we chose a handful of stories that
each of us can relate to from our own and

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joint experience.

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If you or someone that you care about is or

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may be the victim of abuse, we have included a
selection of resources in the episode

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description.

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Listener discretion is advised.

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Leah: Let's get started.

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Hi, moshe.

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Moshe: Hi, leah.

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Leah: How are you today, sweetheart?

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Moshe: I'm well, thank you.

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Leah: So today is the beginning.

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A few episodes that we're going to be doing in

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the upcoming future that are less light
hearted than our usual fare.

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Moshe: Yes, you may have noticed our usual
peppy intro is absent in lieu of a, I guess

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you can call it, flag service announcement.

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Just to kind of lend itself a little bit more

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to the more serious tone of this episode.

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Leah: Yes, and maybe some future ones, but
this is the only one we have planned for the

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moment.

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Moshe: Right.

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Leah: I do feel the need to also include the
fact that when we are sharing the stories, all

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the memes have been left out or.

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Moshe: Absolutely.

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Leah: As well as any distinguishing
characteristics, maybe other than gender.

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Right.

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So it'll be like my husband, my wife, stuff

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like that.

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Moshe: Right.

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Leah: So the first thing that I thought would
be helpful to do would be to define abuse.

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You would think that most people would know or
understand what abuse is, but it's actually

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quite complex, isn't it?

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Moshe: Yeah. I mean, traditionally when you
think of the word abuse, you sometimes think

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of like, hitting and slapping, pushing and
punching and stuff.

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But it's a lot more complex than that, isn't
it?

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Leah: It absolutely is.

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So I'm going to just read a little bit of an

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overview that I found while I was doing some
research.

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So, abuse is when someone causes us harm or
distress.

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It can take many forms, ranging from
disrespect to causing someone physical or

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mental pain.

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It can occur in someone's home, a care home, a

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hospital, or in a public place.

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Often the people who commit abuse are taking

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advantage of a special relationship.

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So that is an important part of what we're

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talking about today, because a relationship
between a neurotypical and a neurodivergent is

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an extremely special relationship.

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And if one or the other doesn't handle it with

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the care that it deserves, then it can
definitely devolve into something that can

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cause harm, pain, and distress to one or both
people.

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Moshe: Yes, absolutely.

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Leah: They may be a family member, a friend,
or a paid care worker who we expect to trust.

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Sometimes abuse is not intentional, but
happens because someone does not have the

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skills or support needed to take care of
someone.

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That does not make the impact of it any less,
but it can help to understand how it happened.

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Anyone, and this is another important point
that we want to touch on, anyone, can become a

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victim of abuse.

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It is no reflection of their intelligence,

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strength, or worth.

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However, people with care and support needs,

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such as older people or people with
disabilities, are more likely to be abused or

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neglected.

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They may be seen as an easy target or may be

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less likely to identify abuse themselves or
report it.

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People with communication difficulties can be
particularly at risk because they may not be

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able to alert others.

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Sometimes people may not even be aware that

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they are being abused, and this is especially
likely if they have a cognitive impairment.

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Abusers may try to prevent access to the
person that they abuse.

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That's called isolation.

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That's well known when it comes to domestic

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abuse.

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But it can happen in all types of abuse,

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right, Moshe?

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Moshe: Absolutely.

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And unfortunately, when it comes to the forms

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of abuse that a lot of neurodivergence and
autistics are particularly susceptible to,

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isolation is, in my experience and in my
research, very common, along with emotional

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abuse, because, unfortunately, people with
developmental or cognitive impairments or

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developmental delays, like autistics such as
myself, they end up being very suggestible and

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sometimes a little bit too trusting.

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And I think I mentioned in a previous episode,

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I don't even remember which one.

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At this point, I discussed the comparison

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between autism in people with Williams
syndrome, which is a genetic disorder that

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actually really would have been a good topic
in our discussion on the genetics of autism.

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And we may actually, I think we may have
talked about it, but one of the

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characteristics that is common between people
with William syndrome and people with autism,

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and actually, when you really look into it,
other forms of cognitive impairment, is that

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they don't really have a concept of fear, like
self protection.

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They end up trusting everyone, because when
you lack the ability to understand nuance,

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then you have really no choice but to take
everyone at their word.

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And often that does leave you susceptible to
suggestion, which can easily translate in the

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wrong hands, we'll say, to emotional and
psychological abuse.

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Leah: Right.

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So the flip side of that is also, when someone

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has a cognitive impairment like that, they
can't necessarily read signs, symptoms, know

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how to communicate with others, know how they
should be treating others, and that can lead

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itself to abuse in the other direction if the
other individual doesn't understand exactly

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what's going on or how to deal with it.

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Moshe: Yeah.

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Leah: It's not purposeful abuse.

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It's almost abused by neglect.

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Moshe: And that is really.

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It's a bit of a slippery slope.

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And unfortunately, it's certainly not talked
about enough.

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Leah: Oh, it will be in this episode.

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Moshe: Yeah. And that's actually the impetus.

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One of the impetuses that we had for doing

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this episode was in researching topics for
discussion on this podcast.

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We talked about a study that I'd read at one
point, where people with autism and

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neurodiversity end up being far more
susceptible for the reasons that I mentioned

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to amuse.

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And so Leah discussed, as we will in this

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episode, about how that often happens the
other way.

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So we did some research and discovered that,
unfortunately, there is significant abuse that

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goes the other way with a person with
neurodivergency or autism can often be the

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abuser.

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Leah: There is scientifically documented abuse
in the other direction.

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But the overwhelming majority of what I found
was when I asked that women in my exact

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position, so often with a male spouse who was
neurodivergent, are suffering really bad

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abuse.

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And it may not actually be the husband's

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fault, again, because he doesn't understand.

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And it's not her fault, because what we're

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told is when we have a neurodivergent partner,
we just have to accept everything, because

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otherwise it's ableism or you're not accepting
them, or you're trying to, you know, change

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them or etc. Etc.

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Etcetera.

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Moshe: And, I mean, we certainly don't want to
say in this podcast that people with autism

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are, like, naturally abusing other people.

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It's.

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It's really.

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It's kind of like pulling the curtain back a

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little bit and saying that, yes, people with
cognitive impairments or developmental delays

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or intellectual disabilities are legitimately
disabled.

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And a lot of the time, they don't necessarily
have ill intention, but they can just as

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easily perpetrate the same kinds of abuse that
they would find in a neurotypical person.

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And it's even, as you mentioned, it's even
more unfortunate because a lot of the time,

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they're not even aware that they're doing it.

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Leah: I got an overwhelming response.

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And again, it was mostly women in my

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situation, and mostly they just wanted to be
heard.

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They were like, thank you so much for asking
this, because nobody believes me, and that's

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really hard.

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Moshe: Yeah. So we have a bunch of stories.

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Leah: Some of them were too, as you said, they
were too harsh to share, and I won't be, and

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we won't be because they require professional
intervention, which I suggested to these

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people personally and showed a lot of concern
there.

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Moshe: And, yeah, it was actually very
upsetting, some of the stories that people

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shared with us, not just as an autistic
hearing what other neurodivergents are doing

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to other people, but, you know, as a man, and,
I mean, I'll share my experiences a little bit

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later on in the show, but you definitely don't
like to see that kind of thing being

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perpetuated.

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It unfortunately, sort of perpetuates a

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stereotype that is not very pleasant.

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Leah: Yes, but a lot of people also don't
understand that men can be abused, too.

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Moshe: They can.

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Leah: And of the two of us, I think we both
suffered a lot of abuse in past relationships,

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but of the two of us, you suffered at least an
equal amount, if not more.

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Moshe: Yeah. And it was one of those
situations that really, it really made me

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question myself, and it unfortunately brought
me to our relationship with.

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With a lot of damage that will, of course, be
happy to discuss.

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I mean, not happy, but we'll be open to
discussing.

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Leah: We'll be open to discussing, maybe not
all in this episode, because it's a lot.

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And as we always keep saying, the ultimate
solution to all of these problems is

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communication.

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That's why we just never stop talking about

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it.

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Moshe: Yes. The thread that weaves itself
through our podcast in previous, current and

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future episodes is the cure all, if you will,
to all of these situations is healthy

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communication.

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And when communication becomes unhealthy,

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identifying it and coming up with a solution,
which unfortunately, in many cases does

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sometimes involve ending the relationship.

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Leah: Let's speak very briefly about the types
of abuse.

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Let's touch on them real quick.

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And it's important not because I want to give

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a list or be like nerdy or whatever, but it's
important because some of it is actually

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extremely nuanced, which could be why a lot of
neurodivergents struggle with the concepts,

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because they're obvious ones.

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So the first few are obviously physical abuse,

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right?

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Moshe: Punching, kicking, slapping, pushing,
like the outward signs of abuse.

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You, you would traditionally, and I say
traditionally, like half a century ago, when

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you would say, my spouse is abusive.

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It almost always meant that you.

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That they hit them.

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Leah: Domestic violence or abuse, which is,
again, it's mostly looked at as one spouse

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hitting the other or, you know, just getting.

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If the wife burns the food, just getting

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really mad at her, or, you know, if the guy
doesn't, I don't know, mow the lawn properly,

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she makes fun of him or something.

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All those types of things can be considered

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domestic abuse.

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Moshe: Also.

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Leah: Violence is within that as well.

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Moshe: Domestic abuse is typically, you know,
abuse that happens between a couple.

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Leah: Sexual abuse is obvious, right?
It's often somebody abusing their authority in

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order to do sexual things to someone else or
people doing things to each other without

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consent.

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Moshe: Sexual abuse can actually be both
extremes.

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It can be forceful sexual acts performed or
demanded from or on one person, but it can

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00:12:52,334 --> 00:13:02,210
also be withholding sexual acts from one or,
you know, person, such as, I won't do this

217
00:13:02,242 --> 00:13:04,818
with you if you don't do this for me.

218
00:13:04,946 --> 00:13:05,814
Leah: Got it.

219
00:13:06,194 --> 00:13:09,210
Psychological or emotional abuse, that one's

220
00:13:09,242 --> 00:13:10,282
pretty obvious as well.

221
00:13:10,338 --> 00:13:13,490
So, you know, not being careful with someone's

222
00:13:13,522 --> 00:13:19,346
emotions, saying insults to them, being mean
to them, putting them down, destroying their

223
00:13:19,370 --> 00:13:20,074
self esteem.

224
00:13:20,154 --> 00:13:20,926
Moshe: Gaslighted.

225
00:13:21,010 --> 00:13:22,034
Leah: Gaslighting.

226
00:13:22,654 --> 00:13:28,270
Moshe: Gaslighting is an interesting subject,
especially when it comes to autistics.

227
00:13:28,422 --> 00:13:33,670
And it really comes back to something that we
mentioned in our previous episode on

228
00:13:33,702 --> 00:13:38,830
communications and resolving conflicts, which
you can listen to on all podcasting and

229
00:13:38,902 --> 00:13:43,974
streaming sites that have to do with the need
for an autistic to always be right or to

230
00:13:44,014 --> 00:13:47,340
correct inaccuracies that even they determine.

231
00:13:47,502 --> 00:13:53,160
And it can often sound very much like, you

232
00:13:53,192 --> 00:13:57,400
always do this, or you never do that, or I
didn't do the thing.

233
00:13:57,552 --> 00:13:59,240
You must have imagined it.

234
00:13:59,392 --> 00:14:02,120
Leah: My favorite one is, I was fine until you
brought it up.

235
00:14:02,272 --> 00:14:04,288
No, you weren't, because I wouldn't have
brought it up.

236
00:14:04,416 --> 00:14:11,400
Moshe: You're always bringing up that I forget
things, or you're always mentioning that I

237
00:14:11,432 --> 00:14:16,564
embarrass you, or you're always doing the
thing, or you're just saying that to upset,

238
00:14:16,684 --> 00:14:23,420
you know, basically, you're saying a thing in
a way that makes the other person question

239
00:14:23,492 --> 00:14:26,092
their own memory, which is very deep.

240
00:14:26,268 --> 00:14:27,924
Leah: Financial or material abuse.

241
00:14:27,964 --> 00:14:30,212
That is, taking money from people that you

242
00:14:30,228 --> 00:14:34,268
shouldn't take or taking their things or using
them for stuff.

243
00:14:34,316 --> 00:14:39,540
Like you did mention, I believe, that coworker
of yours who you paid off her credit card.

244
00:14:39,572 --> 00:14:42,088
She was actually financially abusive to you.

245
00:14:42,276 --> 00:14:42,664
Yes.

246
00:14:42,704 --> 00:14:46,248
Moshe: If you cared about me, you would pay my
credit card bill.

247
00:14:46,416 --> 00:14:48,880
If you were a really nice guy.

248
00:14:49,072 --> 00:14:50,936
You're not a bad person, are you?

249
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,272
Because you're not a mean boss.

250
00:14:53,328 --> 00:14:54,224
You're a nice boss.

251
00:14:54,264 --> 00:14:58,944
And if you were a nice boss, you would pay off
my credit card bill so I could come to work

252
00:14:58,984 --> 00:15:00,920
and be in a better frame of mind.

253
00:15:01,112 --> 00:15:04,592
That is definitely financial abuse right now.

254
00:15:04,688 --> 00:15:06,864
Leah: Those ones were the relatively obvious
ones.

255
00:15:06,904 --> 00:15:08,564
These ones are more nuanced.

256
00:15:08,884 --> 00:15:10,824
Discriminatory abuse.

257
00:15:11,444 --> 00:15:18,396
Moshe: Discriminatory abuse is extremely
nuanced, and it can also fall into a category

258
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:20,772
of any of the other forms of abuse.

259
00:15:20,828 --> 00:15:25,804
For example, if you are a particular kind of

260
00:15:25,964 --> 00:15:32,180
person, based on your culture, your race, your
income class, you know, trying to think of

261
00:15:32,212 --> 00:15:33,580
some, someone refusing.

262
00:15:33,612 --> 00:15:36,948
Leah: To give you a job because you're a
certain gender or your skin is a certain

263
00:15:36,996 --> 00:15:37,422
color.

264
00:15:37,508 --> 00:15:47,506
Moshe: Yes. Basically crying racism or sexism
or transphobia or homophobia or income in

265
00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:47,930
disparity.

266
00:15:47,962 --> 00:15:51,254
You're only rejecting me for this job because

267
00:15:51,954 --> 00:15:58,330
I'm poor or basically using their status
against them.

268
00:15:58,402 --> 00:16:00,418
Leah: You won't date me because I'm not
six'four.

269
00:16:00,506 --> 00:16:02,018
Like that kind of thing.

270
00:16:02,146 --> 00:16:06,940
Moshe: Like, you know, I can do whatever I
want to you because no one will believe you

271
00:16:06,972 --> 00:16:07,944
because I'm.

272
00:16:08,244 --> 00:16:08,812
And you're.

273
00:16:08,868 --> 00:16:09,452
Mmm.

274
00:16:09,588 --> 00:16:10,316
Leah: Type of thing.

275
00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:11,004
Yeah.

276
00:16:11,164 --> 00:16:16,436
Moshe: That is an example of abuse based on
discriminatory content, I guess.

277
00:16:16,580 --> 00:16:19,636
Leah: Yep. Organizational or institutional
abuse, it's pretty obvious.

278
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:24,796
It's, you know, if you're in the hospital and
your care worker hits you or does stuff to

279
00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:26,564
you, care aid.

280
00:16:26,604 --> 00:16:31,420
Moshe: And abuse in the medical system is a
whole other topic.

281
00:16:31,452 --> 00:16:33,076
And certainly outside of our wheelhouse.

282
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:33,604
Leah: Oh, absolutely.

283
00:16:33,644 --> 00:16:34,948
Moshe: But it definitely does exist.

284
00:16:34,996 --> 00:16:37,806
And I'm sure there's plenty of other podcasts

285
00:16:37,830 --> 00:16:39,230
that have to do with healthcare.

286
00:16:39,382 --> 00:16:43,102
Leah: Institution abuse, but it's here, so I
mentioned it, or it's not.

287
00:16:43,278 --> 00:16:44,614
Now, this one is a big one.

288
00:16:44,654 --> 00:16:46,142
Neglect and acts of omission.

289
00:16:46,278 --> 00:16:51,342
This seems to be the one that, on the
neurodivergent side, they're most guilty of.

290
00:16:51,518 --> 00:17:02,122
Moshe: Yes. And it really kind of comes down
to a lack of, wait for it, communication, for

291
00:17:02,138 --> 00:17:06,534
example, the understanding of what the other
person needs.

292
00:17:06,914 --> 00:17:14,594
If you don't have the ability to have, as you
like to say, the theory of mind, then what

293
00:17:14,634 --> 00:17:17,014
works for you may not work for someone else.

294
00:17:17,594 --> 00:17:21,534
One of the particular options is affection.

295
00:17:21,874 --> 00:17:25,018
You don't care about me at all.

296
00:17:25,066 --> 00:17:25,930
You don't love me.

297
00:17:25,962 --> 00:17:27,842
You don't, you know, you don't.

298
00:17:27,898 --> 00:17:28,450
You don't.

299
00:17:28,562 --> 00:17:29,322
You don't love me.

300
00:17:29,378 --> 00:17:30,938
Let's go with, you don't love me.

301
00:17:31,106 --> 00:17:36,122
And if you were talking to somebody who might
have some aversions to certain acts, they

302
00:17:36,138 --> 00:17:37,122
might go, of course I love you.

303
00:17:37,138 --> 00:17:38,818
I'm always looking over at you, and I'm always

304
00:17:38,866 --> 00:17:39,938
smiling at you.

305
00:17:40,066 --> 00:17:41,498
What more do you need from me?

306
00:17:41,586 --> 00:17:41,834
Leah: Right.

307
00:17:41,874 --> 00:17:44,066
This is absolutely from personal experience.

308
00:17:44,170 --> 00:17:44,410
Yes.

309
00:17:44,442 --> 00:17:45,322
Moshe: I made you coffee.

310
00:17:45,378 --> 00:17:47,106
What more do you need for me to show you that

311
00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:47,722
I care about?

312
00:17:47,778 --> 00:17:51,818
Leah: Yeah. So the way that would go would be,
well, I need this from you in order to feel

313
00:17:51,866 --> 00:17:52,098
good.

314
00:17:52,146 --> 00:17:53,962
And he would say, I'm not doing that.

315
00:17:53,978 --> 00:17:54,886
I don't want it.

316
00:17:55,050 --> 00:17:59,478
And that in a one time instance is fine, or in

317
00:17:59,486 --> 00:18:01,358
a few time instances, fine.

318
00:18:01,526 --> 00:18:04,990
But when it's consistent, it literally does

319
00:18:05,022 --> 00:18:06,494
whittle down on someone's self esteem.

320
00:18:06,534 --> 00:18:09,334
And it is a form of abuse through neglect.

321
00:18:09,494 --> 00:18:14,518
Moshe: Yes. And again, it really does come
into communication, which is something that

322
00:18:14,686 --> 00:18:17,846
neurodivergents and autistics often struggle
with.

323
00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:22,722
And I bring up affection because it is such a
nuanced topic.

324
00:18:22,898 --> 00:18:30,026
And we have received stories from people who
were feeling exceptionally neglected by their

325
00:18:30,050 --> 00:18:35,586
partner because their partner never wanted to
hug them or kiss them or have sex with them or

326
00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:36,370
touch them.

327
00:18:36,522 --> 00:18:39,570
And when they brought it up, it was, you know,

328
00:18:39,642 --> 00:18:42,666
you know, that that's hard for me, or, you
know, that I can't do that.

329
00:18:42,730 --> 00:18:44,882
Leah: That's begged the question how they
ended up together.

330
00:18:44,978 --> 00:18:49,710
I can tell you we ended up together because of
our shared history and the rest of it got

331
00:18:49,742 --> 00:18:50,214
worked on.

332
00:18:50,254 --> 00:18:52,950
But if you're dating somebody and they're like

333
00:18:52,982 --> 00:18:56,582
that from the outside and it doesn't work for
you, it kind of does bring up the question for

334
00:18:56,598 --> 00:18:58,246
me why they're together at all.

335
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:59,214
Moshe: Communication.

336
00:18:59,334 --> 00:19:02,110
And if you've just met someone and you've

337
00:19:02,182 --> 00:19:05,702
theoretically gone through the process of
dating them and then deciding to enter into a

338
00:19:05,718 --> 00:19:10,814
long term relationship, at what point did you
realize that this person doesn't like kisses

339
00:19:10,894 --> 00:19:15,616
or hugs or touching?
Like, how could you be together for months or

340
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:21,032
years and suddenly realize that your partner
never wants to touch you?

341
00:19:21,088 --> 00:19:23,844
Leah: That's also very complex because masking
is a thing.

342
00:19:24,344 --> 00:19:28,304
I lived with you for about a month before you
told me you didn't actually like kissing.

343
00:19:28,424 --> 00:19:34,872
Moshe: Yes. Masking brings another level into
it, because autistics are often able to do

344
00:19:34,928 --> 00:19:37,124
certain things that make them very
uncomfortable.

345
00:19:37,464 --> 00:19:43,406
One off, or for limited periods of time, or
for a certain amount of time before they're

346
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:48,526
unable to maintain the mask, in which case
they'll suddenly decide, one day, I don't want

347
00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:49,534
you to touch me.

348
00:19:49,654 --> 00:19:52,046
And quite rightly, the partner will go, well,

349
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:55,534
you've never had a problem with it, like,
since we started.

350
00:19:55,654 --> 00:19:57,206
Yeah, but I actually don't like it.

351
00:19:57,230 --> 00:20:01,062
And I was, you know, I was trying to be okay

352
00:20:01,078 --> 00:20:02,422
with it, but I actually don't want you to do
it.

353
00:20:02,438 --> 00:20:03,670
And I never liked it.

354
00:20:03,822 --> 00:20:07,154
Leah: What that can look like is lying,
manipulation.

355
00:20:07,784 --> 00:20:09,016
It's absolutely not.

356
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,376
I want to be clear on that.

357
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:10,712
Moshe: Right.

358
00:20:10,768 --> 00:20:15,800
Leah: But it absolutely can look like it to a
casual observer, especially a neurotypical

359
00:20:15,872 --> 00:20:18,084
whose brain works that way.

360
00:20:18,384 --> 00:20:20,256
If they did something like that, it would

361
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,088
probably be with malicious intent.

362
00:20:22,136 --> 00:20:25,444
So they don't understand necessarily.

363
00:20:26,464 --> 00:20:28,360
The next one is self neglect.

364
00:20:28,552 --> 00:20:30,352
That one, actually, I kind of think about my

365
00:20:30,368 --> 00:20:30,924
mom.

366
00:20:32,144 --> 00:20:33,722
Moshe: Talk about self neglect.

367
00:20:33,888 --> 00:20:37,902
Leah: Self neglect, I would presume, is when
you literally neglect to take care of

368
00:20:37,918 --> 00:20:38,606
yourself.

369
00:20:38,790 --> 00:20:40,966
So, again, thinking about my mom, she doesn't

370
00:20:40,990 --> 00:20:42,398
take her medication properly.

371
00:20:42,446 --> 00:20:45,350
She doesn't make sure that she eats properly.

372
00:20:45,422 --> 00:20:47,534
She doesn't make sure she's hydrated properly.

373
00:20:47,574 --> 00:20:49,766
She doesn't do her medical care properly, and

374
00:20:49,790 --> 00:20:53,110
that's led her to a lot of health problems
very, very young.

375
00:20:53,262 --> 00:20:56,354
So she's essentially abusing herself through
neglect.

376
00:20:56,734 --> 00:21:00,692
Moshe: And that can often happen in
relationships on both sides.

377
00:21:00,878 --> 00:21:10,832
For example, you are so focused on, you know,
responding to my moods or my needs or things

378
00:21:10,888 --> 00:21:16,760
that I need in order to be happy that you
yourself are not doing the things that you

379
00:21:16,792 --> 00:21:18,656
need to do to be happy.

380
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,256
Leah: I tried that for a while, but it was a
bottomless pit.

381
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,600
Again, just like you could mask for a while.

382
00:21:23,672 --> 00:21:25,432
I could do that for a while, but it's not a

383
00:21:25,448 --> 00:21:26,240
long term solution.

384
00:21:26,312 --> 00:21:32,524
Moshe: And conversely, I did that a lot in our
relationship, and it was entirely self

385
00:21:32,864 --> 00:21:39,368
invented, where I decided that I needed to
focus on doing certain things for you and

386
00:21:39,456 --> 00:21:46,248
neglecting things that I needed in order to be
happy, and I would end up suffering from self

387
00:21:46,296 --> 00:21:51,444
neglect, which a lot of the time was my own
design.

388
00:21:52,154 --> 00:21:53,770
I need to do these things.

389
00:21:53,842 --> 00:21:55,322
And your response would always be, well, I

390
00:21:55,338 --> 00:21:56,634
never told you not to.

391
00:21:56,754 --> 00:21:57,274
Leah: Exactly.

392
00:21:57,314 --> 00:21:58,818
So, again, the c word.

393
00:21:58,866 --> 00:21:59,986
The communication word.

394
00:22:00,050 --> 00:22:00,842
Moshe: Exactly.

395
00:22:00,898 --> 00:22:04,746
Leah: And when we would dig to the bottom of
those things, I would say, I never asked you

396
00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:05,562
for that.

397
00:22:05,738 --> 00:22:07,802
You're not doing things I asked you for, and

398
00:22:07,818 --> 00:22:09,922
you're doing things I never even wanted.

399
00:22:09,978 --> 00:22:10,854
So why?

400
00:22:11,594 --> 00:22:18,094
Moshe: So it becomes self neglect can be
because of abuse, or it can be because of a

401
00:22:18,134 --> 00:22:22,794
perceived lack of self focus.

402
00:22:23,894 --> 00:22:26,910
Unfortunately, the word selfish ends up being

403
00:22:26,942 --> 00:22:29,158
tossed around quite a lot in relationships.

404
00:22:29,326 --> 00:22:32,558
And if you are able to gaslight someone into

405
00:22:32,606 --> 00:22:37,174
thinking that their needs are selfish, then
they will, in turn, neglect their own needs

406
00:22:37,254 --> 00:22:40,030
and will suffer as a result, which is a form
of.

407
00:22:40,062 --> 00:22:42,710
Leah: Abuse and modern slavery.

408
00:22:42,782 --> 00:22:44,086
That was an interesting one.

409
00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:50,414
I'd never actually heard of it before doing
this research, but, you know, sex trafficking,

410
00:22:51,074 --> 00:22:53,114
keeping somebody locked up.

411
00:22:53,274 --> 00:22:55,522
Or it can be something as nuanced as, you

412
00:22:55,538 --> 00:23:00,458
know, the barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen
trope or the trad wife thing, but by force,

413
00:23:00,506 --> 00:23:02,682
not by choice.

414
00:23:02,858 --> 00:23:09,122
Moshe: Modern slavery sounds really over the
top, but it actually is quite common.

415
00:23:09,178 --> 00:23:10,290
Leah: It's totally a thing.

416
00:23:10,402 --> 00:23:13,742
Moshe: And sex trafficking is definitely one
aspect of it.

417
00:23:13,898 --> 00:23:14,502
Another.

418
00:23:14,638 --> 00:23:15,846
Leah: Or human trafficking.

419
00:23:15,910 --> 00:23:16,702
Moshe: Human trafficking.

420
00:23:16,758 --> 00:23:19,790
But another aspect of it can be absolutely

421
00:23:19,822 --> 00:23:20,558
innocent.

422
00:23:20,726 --> 00:23:24,222
It can be very similar to a situation that I

423
00:23:24,238 --> 00:23:29,358
found myself in, where I was unable to work
because they could not be left alone.

424
00:23:29,526 --> 00:23:33,262
I was unable to leave the room because they
couldn't be left alone.

425
00:23:33,438 --> 00:23:39,566
I was unable to respond to my needs because it
was selfish.

426
00:23:39,630 --> 00:23:46,960
I was unable to do anything for myself because
they insisted that they didn't get to do

427
00:23:46,992 --> 00:23:47,896
anything for themselves.

428
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,128
So I had to.

429
00:23:49,296 --> 00:23:57,352
And I was kept trapped in a cycle where I
would be forced to do everything, and they in

430
00:23:57,368 --> 00:23:58,728
turn, had to do nothing.

431
00:23:58,896 --> 00:23:59,920
Leah: Yes, I know.

432
00:24:00,032 --> 00:24:01,624
And the reality is, most people would say to

433
00:24:01,624 --> 00:24:03,776
you, well, why not just walk out of a
situation like that?

434
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:04,560
You have two legs.

435
00:24:04,592 --> 00:24:06,104
But, I mean, I saw.

436
00:24:06,144 --> 00:24:07,216
I was there for part of it.

437
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,932
I saw it, and it's a lot harder than you

438
00:24:09,948 --> 00:24:10,504
think.

439
00:24:11,444 --> 00:24:15,484
Moshe: Why didn't you just leave?
Thing is a whole other episode.

440
00:24:15,564 --> 00:24:17,684
But anyway, let's get to the stories.

441
00:24:17,844 --> 00:24:22,204
Leah: Okay, so I was actually going to segue
into the stories as well.

442
00:24:22,324 --> 00:24:29,164
I'm going to start on my end with the stories
from the neurotypical spouses regarding their

443
00:24:29,244 --> 00:24:30,876
neurodivergent spouses.

444
00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:33,508
They're relatively mild ones, but they're ones

445
00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:36,148
that I think we can discuss in terms of our
own experience.

446
00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:40,064
So I'll read the story to you, and then we'll
talk about it for a little while.

447
00:24:41,044 --> 00:24:44,516
So let's call this person subject number one.

448
00:24:44,620 --> 00:24:45,380
Moshe: Subject what?

449
00:24:45,452 --> 00:24:48,464
Leah: Subject number one writes four year
podcast.

450
00:24:48,884 --> 00:24:54,116
My ex was never officially diagnosed, but our
marriage counselor suggested he was likely

451
00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:56,916
autistic or had something like Asperger's.

452
00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:59,076
I would ask him to do something around the

453
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:03,504
house, and he would lose his mind, saying I
didn't appreciate him.

454
00:25:03,684 --> 00:25:08,632
I asked him once to clean a windowsill because
I was occupied and it had mold that had been

455
00:25:08,648 --> 00:25:10,000
there for three weeks.

456
00:25:10,192 --> 00:25:12,880
I wanted to see if he noticed it when I

457
00:25:12,912 --> 00:25:13,496
mentioned that.

458
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,592
I guess I need to point things out if I see

459
00:25:15,608 --> 00:25:17,408
that they need to be taken care of.

460
00:25:17,576 --> 00:25:19,984
He left the house for the night and sent me

461
00:25:20,024 --> 00:25:24,324
texts telling me that I was accusing him of
being unobservant and not caring.

462
00:25:24,664 --> 00:25:27,844
He threatened to never come home unless I
apologized.

463
00:25:28,464 --> 00:25:31,056
I had to grovel accept all responsibility.

464
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,934
And he still came home and berated me in front

465
00:25:33,974 --> 00:25:34,914
of the kids.

466
00:25:35,294 --> 00:25:36,798
That was the day that broke us.

467
00:25:36,846 --> 00:25:39,194
I left him less than two years later.

468
00:25:39,774 --> 00:25:41,234
Let's discuss that.

469
00:25:41,614 --> 00:25:45,710
Moshe: So there's a few things there that are
going on from the outset.

470
00:25:45,902 --> 00:25:50,014
The first thing I'll say right away is they
clearly don't have very good communication.

471
00:25:50,134 --> 00:25:56,166
Leah: Obviously, if I were to make fun of you
about not being able to see something that

472
00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:59,252
would actually be very hurtful on my end.

473
00:25:59,318 --> 00:26:01,984
So I see where he got hurt, but his reaction

474
00:26:02,024 --> 00:26:03,104
was likely over the top.

475
00:26:03,144 --> 00:26:04,728
Moshe: His reaction was very much over the
top.

476
00:26:04,776 --> 00:26:08,184
But of course, my first question is, was this
the first time that this happened?

477
00:26:08,264 --> 00:26:08,672
Leah: No.

478
00:26:08,768 --> 00:26:11,404
Moshe: Is this something that she does
regularly?

479
00:26:12,104 --> 00:26:12,712
Leah: Maybe.

480
00:26:12,808 --> 00:26:14,848
But the thing about it is, if I made fun of

481
00:26:14,856 --> 00:26:19,496
you, like, I guess you didn't see that, you
could rightly come back to me and say, well,

482
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,560
I'm ADHD.

483
00:26:20,632 --> 00:26:22,088
Of course I didn't see that.

484
00:26:22,216 --> 00:26:22,816
Moshe: Right.

485
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,370
His reaction was absolutely over the top, too

486
00:26:25,402 --> 00:26:25,618
much.

487
00:26:25,666 --> 00:26:27,602
Leah: But it was valid.

488
00:26:27,738 --> 00:26:31,954
Moshe: I very much subscribe to the policy
that you should never fight in front of your

489
00:26:31,994 --> 00:26:33,814
children now.

490
00:26:34,194 --> 00:26:35,294
And that is.

491
00:26:35,634 --> 00:26:37,706
That's very unfortunate.

492
00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:43,602
Leah: Now, the apology thing, let's discuss
that, though, because that's a thing that was

493
00:26:43,698 --> 00:26:48,674
an issue between us as well, where you would
demand apologies even for perceived slides,

494
00:26:48,714 --> 00:26:53,974
when I did nothing wrong, and I'm not the type
who apologizes if I don't mean it.

495
00:26:54,134 --> 00:26:59,150
So that would stop any healthy communication
directly in its tracks.

496
00:26:59,302 --> 00:27:04,742
And it sounds like they had a similar
situation where even though they both seem to

497
00:27:04,758 --> 00:27:11,310
be at fault here, which I think the original
storyteller admitted, she had to take all the

498
00:27:11,342 --> 00:27:16,518
responsibility, eat all the crow, get yelled
at in front of her children, and then they

499
00:27:16,526 --> 00:27:17,870
were able to move on.

500
00:27:18,062 --> 00:27:24,450
Moshe: So an apology doesn't actually mean
anything if you don't mean it.

501
00:27:24,602 --> 00:27:31,666
And I think that in that circumstance, putting
aside the fact that it was very likely not the

502
00:27:31,690 --> 00:27:32,226
first time, at.

503
00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:35,506
Leah: Some point that happened, rather than in
either direction, though.

504
00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:36,362
Moshe: No, of course.

505
00:27:36,498 --> 00:27:39,898
But rather than demanding an apology, I would

506
00:27:39,986 --> 00:27:49,872
probably have, maybe, at least now I would try
to explain why what she said was hurtful and

507
00:27:49,928 --> 00:27:56,752
let her sort of understand the effect that her
words had on me, and then if she felt that it

508
00:27:56,768 --> 00:28:00,976
was worthy of an apology, then by all means,
right.

509
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:08,564
Leah: So I really should specify that the
impetus for these stories was me asking people

510
00:28:08,904 --> 00:28:11,056
who felt that they had been the victim of
abuse.

511
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,850
So she clearly felt very abused by this
interaction, of course, abuse enough that I'm

512
00:28:15,882 --> 00:28:19,370
going to go ahead and say their communication
didn't improve, and they actually divorced.

513
00:28:19,482 --> 00:28:20,134
Moshe: Right.

514
00:28:20,594 --> 00:28:22,770
Leah: So what are your final thoughts on that?

515
00:28:22,962 --> 00:28:30,174
Moshe: So a relationship, much like this
podcast, is thread through with communication.

516
00:28:30,554 --> 00:28:35,362
And communication breakdown in any
relationship, whether or not it involves

517
00:28:35,458 --> 00:28:40,250
someone who's autistic or neurodivergent, is
the death knell of any relationship.

518
00:28:40,402 --> 00:28:41,130
Because if you.

519
00:28:41,162 --> 00:28:43,170
If you can't talk to each other or you can't

520
00:28:43,202 --> 00:28:48,002
communicate with each other, then, like,
really, there's nowhere to go.

521
00:28:48,138 --> 00:28:50,454
Leah: Yeah. What are you doing?
Really?

522
00:28:51,554 --> 00:28:54,194
So, yeah, my final thoughts on that are
absolutely.

523
00:28:54,234 --> 00:28:58,706
She had a part to play, but his reaction was
over the top and very abusive because if he

524
00:28:58,730 --> 00:29:01,770
cared about his children, he wouldn't have
done that.

525
00:29:01,922 --> 00:29:03,334
Moshe: No, absolutely.

526
00:29:03,914 --> 00:29:08,148
Leah: So next, some people actually just gave
me topics that they thought I should cover,

527
00:29:08,306 --> 00:29:09,664
and I like this one.

528
00:29:09,824 --> 00:29:12,344
One thing I think you can bring up is how

529
00:29:12,384 --> 00:29:16,284
abusive behaviors are sometimes just shrugged
off as autism.

530
00:29:16,664 --> 00:29:22,208
Now, I think that we both have opinions on
this one is that the abusive behaviors could

531
00:29:22,256 --> 00:29:23,480
absolutely be autism.

532
00:29:23,552 --> 00:29:26,456
We discussed that misunderstanding or some

533
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,168
sort of sensitivity or just not understanding
that the other person has feelings, too, et

534
00:29:31,176 --> 00:29:32,248
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

535
00:29:32,336 --> 00:29:32,752
Moshe: Right.

536
00:29:32,848 --> 00:29:37,052
Leah: Some things, though, especially some of
the things we received, because I shared a lot

537
00:29:37,068 --> 00:29:42,064
of them with you, and we discussed whether to
share them or not, are something else.

538
00:29:42,564 --> 00:29:42,972
Moshe: Right.

539
00:29:43,028 --> 00:29:48,572
Leah: Because every autistic also does have a
personality, and some of the things that some

540
00:29:48,588 --> 00:29:56,412
of these people did are not, can't really be
explained away by just a misunderstanding.

541
00:29:56,588 --> 00:29:57,304
Moshe: Right.

542
00:29:57,964 --> 00:30:02,914
Leah: So, yes, again, one of her favorite
games to play with you is autism or just a man

543
00:30:03,074 --> 00:30:05,546
with Avram autism or just a ten year old.

544
00:30:05,650 --> 00:30:08,042
And which is which and what's personality and

545
00:30:08,058 --> 00:30:11,494
what's, you know, genuine disability.

546
00:30:11,834 --> 00:30:12,574
Moshe: Right.

547
00:30:13,114 --> 00:30:14,674
Leah: Both of which can be worked on.

548
00:30:14,754 --> 00:30:15,410
Moshe: Absolutely.

549
00:30:15,482 --> 00:30:21,170
Leah: But. But I do think that for me at
least, the temptation was at the beginning to

550
00:30:21,202 --> 00:30:25,786
literally shrug everything off as autism,
especially because I was told, like, you

551
00:30:25,810 --> 00:30:29,932
can't, you can't correct somebody who's
autistic, that's ableist.

552
00:30:29,988 --> 00:30:34,660
You have to just accept everything they do
because, you know, their struggle is so much

553
00:30:34,812 --> 00:30:37,944
more than yours and you can never understand
it or whatever.

554
00:30:38,244 --> 00:30:48,260
Moshe: Right. And, I mean, I really don't feel
like raising an issue with proper treatment by

555
00:30:48,292 --> 00:30:51,624
another person should be labeled as ableist.

556
00:30:52,024 --> 00:30:55,904
Ableist is one of those discrimination terms

557
00:30:55,984 --> 00:31:01,080
that much like anything else, gets thrown
around sometimes where it absolutely

558
00:31:01,112 --> 00:31:01,520
shouldn't.

559
00:31:01,592 --> 00:31:03,144
And I say that as an autistic.

560
00:31:03,184 --> 00:31:04,400
Leah: It is a type of abuse.

561
00:31:04,472 --> 00:31:06,792
So somebody being ableist, like not hiring you

562
00:31:06,808 --> 00:31:12,128
because they're autistic, is abused you, but
it can be used the other way as a whip.

563
00:31:12,296 --> 00:31:13,064
You're ableist.

564
00:31:13,104 --> 00:31:15,040
You can't say that about me, but you're

565
00:31:15,072 --> 00:31:15,520
hurting me.

566
00:31:15,552 --> 00:31:17,248
No, no, you can't say that about me.

567
00:31:17,256 --> 00:31:18,444
You have to accept it.

568
00:31:19,214 --> 00:31:25,686
Moshe: What I often like to say is autism is
an obstacle, but it's not a barrier.

569
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:35,430
If you are able to understand the consequences
of your actions, and again, speaking as one

570
00:31:35,462 --> 00:31:40,678
autistic and not as all autistics, because
everyone has a different ability to function,

571
00:31:40,846 --> 00:31:45,990
but if you are one of those neurodivergents or
autistics that has the ability to understand

572
00:31:46,062 --> 00:31:51,932
the consequences of their actions, then you
have the ability to understand that when you

573
00:31:51,988 --> 00:31:59,796
act in a way, whether or not it because of
your autism or because of something else, then

574
00:31:59,940 --> 00:32:02,384
if it hurts someone else, then it's wrong.

575
00:32:02,684 --> 00:32:06,932
And at a very basic level, even a small child

576
00:32:07,028 --> 00:32:09,396
can be taught that everything's between right
and wrong.

577
00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:14,722
And not to say that autistics can be compared
to small children, but if you could, look,

578
00:32:14,778 --> 00:32:19,738
okay, how about this?
If you have the ability to be in a

579
00:32:19,786 --> 00:32:26,746
relationship with another person that has
advanced to such a level that it's now a long

580
00:32:26,810 --> 00:32:31,874
term relationship, and even further to the
point where it's marriage or marriage like

581
00:32:31,914 --> 00:32:37,082
relationship, then surely you can understand
right from wrong.

582
00:32:37,258 --> 00:32:46,584
And that when you yell at somebody because of
some perceived slight, or you overreact to

583
00:32:46,624 --> 00:32:52,432
something that was mildly offensive and
treated as though you are being personally

584
00:32:52,488 --> 00:33:01,764
attacked and in turn respond in an over the
top way, then you can be taught to understand

585
00:33:02,944 --> 00:33:10,140
when something that you're doing is not right,
as you in fact, actually helped me to

586
00:33:10,172 --> 00:33:10,744
understand.

587
00:33:11,244 --> 00:33:12,972
You have to be above reproach.

588
00:33:13,028 --> 00:33:20,220
You have to be able to look at the person and
say, I am doing nothing to deserve the

589
00:33:20,252 --> 00:33:21,908
treatment that you are giving me.

590
00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:24,548
And if you can say that, which, to be fair,

591
00:33:24,596 --> 00:33:30,784
you always can, then you have to be able to
get on a chair.

592
00:33:31,084 --> 00:33:36,024
You have to be able to try to lift that person
up to your level, and that means not getting

593
00:33:36,064 --> 00:33:36,984
down in the dirt with them.

594
00:33:37,024 --> 00:33:41,320
So when I would end up in situations where I

595
00:33:41,352 --> 00:33:49,324
would be unable to emotionally regulate or I
would have meltdowns over perceived offenses,

596
00:33:49,624 --> 00:33:56,376
and we would end up in a situation where you
would try to call me back to the ability to

597
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:03,680
understand by talking about what you used to
call adult conversations, like, okay, you can

598
00:34:03,712 --> 00:34:07,936
have your meltdown, you can have your
reaction, but when you're done, we're going to

599
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:15,864
talk about this like adults, and you're going
to understand my point of view and what I

600
00:34:15,904 --> 00:34:22,592
found in those circumstances was either I
didn't understand something and I perceived it

601
00:34:22,608 --> 00:34:28,978
as an insult, or I did understand it, but I
took it for far worse than it was.

602
00:34:29,096 --> 00:34:31,350
Leah: But you've also come very far.

603
00:34:31,462 --> 00:34:34,054
Yes, there was a point in time where literally

604
00:34:34,174 --> 00:34:40,118
anything that wasn't you being perfect, angel,
golden boy, was an insult, and you've come a

605
00:34:40,166 --> 00:34:41,510
long way since then.

606
00:34:41,582 --> 00:34:43,926
Moshe: But that's a really funny thing, isn't
it?

607
00:34:44,110 --> 00:34:48,446
And this again, goes back to the previous
topic that we talked about, about how an

608
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:49,934
autistic has a need to be.

609
00:34:49,974 --> 00:34:50,554
Right?

610
00:34:51,014 --> 00:34:58,803
So if you can consider outside of the
spectrum, no pun intended, of the reasons for

611
00:34:59,503 --> 00:35:01,203
causing a disagreement.

612
00:35:01,543 --> 00:35:04,243
I identify that I suffer from a disability.

613
00:35:04,543 --> 00:35:07,003
You identify that I suffer from a disability.

614
00:35:07,423 --> 00:35:09,351
You pointing out that I suffer from a

615
00:35:09,367 --> 00:35:12,603
disability makes me feel attacked.

616
00:35:13,223 --> 00:35:14,015
Leah: Why?

617
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:22,166
Moshe: Because you pointed out something that
I identify as a thing, and that you identified

618
00:35:22,350 --> 00:35:23,754
as also a thing.

619
00:35:24,054 --> 00:35:27,814
And somehow you identifying an aspect of

620
00:35:27,854 --> 00:35:33,314
something that I identify as a thing causes me
to feel attacked.

621
00:35:33,854 --> 00:35:35,198
Does that even make any sense?

622
00:35:35,246 --> 00:35:37,982
Leah: That actually led to a conversation that
I remember now.

623
00:35:38,118 --> 00:35:42,902
A lot of things are fading because we've had
so much, like, conflict into trying to work on

624
00:35:42,918 --> 00:35:43,854
our relationship.

625
00:35:44,014 --> 00:35:46,406
But it actually led to a conversation where I

626
00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:48,994
actually once asked you, Moshe, why do you
hate yourself so much?

627
00:35:49,634 --> 00:35:50,738
You know, you're autistic.

628
00:35:50,786 --> 00:35:53,130
You're gonna have to accept that one day.

629
00:35:53,282 --> 00:35:56,334
Moshe: Right?
And that is the.

630
00:35:57,154 --> 00:35:57,882
I don't know.

631
00:35:57,978 --> 00:35:59,850
Everyone likes to quote that line from

632
00:35:59,882 --> 00:36:02,306
Seinfeld, where it's not a lie if you believe
it.

633
00:36:02,370 --> 00:36:02,974
Leah: Right.

634
00:36:04,074 --> 00:36:08,866
Moshe: And the way I like to say it is, an
autistic can sometimes masks so well that they

635
00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:10,054
even fool themselves.

636
00:36:10,354 --> 00:36:11,978
Leah: Yes, but they can't fool me.

637
00:36:12,066 --> 00:36:16,688
Moshe: Right?
You're very good at seeing through that.

638
00:36:16,866 --> 00:36:24,660
But yes, if you wear a mask for so long that
it even convinces you that that's the way you

639
00:36:24,692 --> 00:36:29,436
are, then maybe it's time to start
understanding that underneath the mask is

640
00:36:29,460 --> 00:36:34,036
someone who really just needs to accept that
that's who they are.

641
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:35,724
Leah: But that was absolutely meant with love.

642
00:36:35,764 --> 00:36:36,172
It was.

643
00:36:36,228 --> 00:36:38,996
You know, Moshe, why do you hate yourself so
much?

644
00:36:39,180 --> 00:36:41,512
Why don't you accept yourself?
I do.

645
00:36:41,708 --> 00:36:44,936
And if I can, then you can.

646
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:45,608
Moshe: Right?

647
00:36:45,696 --> 00:36:52,056
Leah: And that's ultimately another solution
to these kind of problems, because a lot of

648
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,448
these people are very functional.

649
00:36:53,496 --> 00:36:58,680
They're successful beyond reason in one aspect

650
00:36:58,712 --> 00:36:59,696
of their life.

651
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,096
So they're then like, well, I'm an adult, and

652
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,704
I make six figures a year, so how dare you
correct me on anything, whatever it is.

653
00:37:09,124 --> 00:37:11,396
That's a tough situation in both cases.

654
00:37:11,540 --> 00:37:14,052
Actually, it is, because I could easily say,

655
00:37:14,068 --> 00:37:15,252
well, I'm the neurotypical.

656
00:37:15,308 --> 00:37:16,924
How dare you correct me on anything?

657
00:37:16,964 --> 00:37:18,284
And you do all the time.

658
00:37:18,444 --> 00:37:20,024
A lot of the times, you're right.

659
00:37:20,324 --> 00:37:21,064
Moshe: Right.

660
00:37:21,604 --> 00:37:25,224
Learning to accept that you're a flawed person

661
00:37:26,124 --> 00:37:30,824
is a normal, a normal stage of development.

662
00:37:31,204 --> 00:37:34,282
Because when you're a child or a teenager,

663
00:37:34,388 --> 00:37:38,662
you're perfect, and nothing you ever do is
wrong, and you're capable of everything.

664
00:37:38,838 --> 00:37:45,774
But as you grow older, normally, you get to a
stage of your development where you can accept

665
00:37:45,934 --> 00:37:51,406
that you are very talented in some ways and
not very talented in others.

666
00:37:51,590 --> 00:37:59,154
And unless you happen to be, you know, God,
you are capable of making mistakes.

667
00:37:59,954 --> 00:38:10,442
And for whatever reason, a lot of people who
have autism are so detective of appearing

668
00:38:10,498 --> 00:38:16,426
vulnerable that it ends up coming across as
being insulted by the truth.

669
00:38:16,530 --> 00:38:17,946
Leah: We're also very aggressive.

670
00:38:18,010 --> 00:38:19,410
It does come across as aggressive.

671
00:38:19,442 --> 00:38:24,130
So a couple of things I wanted to cover on
this topic, and then we should move on.

672
00:38:24,242 --> 00:38:24,610
Moshe: Right.

673
00:38:24,682 --> 00:38:28,214
Leah: The first one was, though, it absolutely
wasn't abuse.

674
00:38:28,254 --> 00:38:34,214
When Moshe would have meltdowns or react in
the way he did, if the outside observer had

675
00:38:34,254 --> 00:38:39,374
watched us or seen us, it did happen a couple
of times, they would be very concerned for my

676
00:38:39,414 --> 00:38:40,014
safety.

677
00:38:40,134 --> 00:38:41,902
He would never hurt me.

678
00:38:41,998 --> 00:38:45,234
Even in the midst of a meltdown, he had that
kind of control.

679
00:38:45,614 --> 00:38:49,710
But from the outside, it was extremely scary
to look at.

680
00:38:49,862 --> 00:38:51,270
So that's one thing.

681
00:38:51,302 --> 00:38:53,206
So the outside observer may see things that

682
00:38:53,230 --> 00:38:56,524
aren't abuse as abuse and be very concerned.

683
00:38:57,304 --> 00:39:00,552
The second thing is, I just wanted to just put

684
00:39:00,568 --> 00:39:01,784
a little bow on this word.

685
00:39:01,904 --> 00:39:05,320
Some things even the autistic person knows are

686
00:39:05,352 --> 00:39:08,840
wrong, and they do them anyway because that's
a human characteristic.

687
00:39:08,912 --> 00:39:10,256
Everybody does that.

688
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,520
And if you're doing that and it's causing

689
00:39:12,592 --> 00:39:17,000
somebody that you love harm or to be hurt, you
really need to rethink that, whether you're

690
00:39:17,032 --> 00:39:18,816
neurotypical or neurotypical.

691
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:19,964
Moshe: Exactly.

692
00:39:20,404 --> 00:39:20,932
Leah: Right.

693
00:39:21,028 --> 00:39:23,664
Next subject number three.

694
00:39:24,044 --> 00:39:26,916
I've recently finished reading Asperger's in
love.

695
00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:32,460
I know that's not the acceptable term anymore
and was fairly shocked on the chapters about

696
00:39:32,492 --> 00:39:37,940
abuse because I've seen so many times in this
group people saying autistic folks aren't

697
00:39:38,012 --> 00:39:39,500
inherently abusive.

698
00:39:39,692 --> 00:39:42,236
And I've really, really been trying hard to

699
00:39:42,260 --> 00:39:45,224
give my husband the benefit of the doubt for
too many years.

700
00:39:45,704 --> 00:39:51,360
About 70% of as men answered yes to the
question, had they ever been verbally abusive

701
00:39:51,392 --> 00:39:56,184
to their partners?
40% of as men in my research said that at some

702
00:39:56,224 --> 00:40:00,392
time in their relationship, they had been
physically abusive toward their partner.

703
00:40:00,568 --> 00:40:05,120
Now, this isn't glowing, but this was one of
the sort of scientific studies that I had been

704
00:40:05,152 --> 00:40:06,064
referring to.

705
00:40:06,224 --> 00:40:07,824
Do you have any thoughts on that?

706
00:40:07,984 --> 00:40:14,072
Moshe: Well, the first thing that I think
about is that remarkable self reflection on

707
00:40:14,088 --> 00:40:18,604
the part of the, as I presume, refers to
autism spectrum.

708
00:40:20,304 --> 00:40:27,176
So it sounds like you have people who have
autism self admitting that they abuse their

709
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:27,924
partners.

710
00:40:28,264 --> 00:40:32,056
I mean, not like, as a rule, but as a very

711
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,432
high percentage, which.

712
00:40:34,608 --> 00:40:37,912
Leah: Even before we were together, you had
that level of insight.

713
00:40:38,088 --> 00:40:43,010
When I would talk to you about, let's call her
first wife, you admitted that you did some

714
00:40:43,042 --> 00:40:43,614
things.

715
00:40:43,914 --> 00:40:49,934
Moshe: Yeah. And that gets to the thing that I
mentioned about appearing above approach,

716
00:40:50,354 --> 00:40:58,934
because if you are sitting there and taking
abuse, and you always respond rationally,

717
00:40:59,634 --> 00:41:04,114
reflectively, then you are above reproach, and
you can say, you know what?

718
00:41:04,154 --> 00:41:06,716
I'm sorry, but you are not treating me fairly.

719
00:41:06,850 --> 00:41:11,200
But if you, like, hit back or you get involved

720
00:41:11,392 --> 00:41:16,736
in a back and forth, then it basically allows
them to turn around and say, see, you're also

721
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,872
the one who's guilty.

722
00:41:17,928 --> 00:41:19,536
So I'm not doing anything wrong.

723
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,124
We're both doing it wrong.

724
00:41:22,144 --> 00:41:25,256
And unfortunately, when you don't have the

725
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:32,576
self control that a lot of neurodivergents
don't, it makes it very easy to get dragged

726
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:33,894
down into the dirt.

727
00:41:34,064 --> 00:41:38,210
And if you are also very suggestible, as I

728
00:41:38,242 --> 00:41:44,954
unfortunately was, then they can, you know,
hit you ten times.

729
00:41:45,034 --> 00:41:49,338
But if you hit them once back, then go see,
it's both of our faults.

730
00:41:49,506 --> 00:41:51,418
Not one of us is responsible.

731
00:41:51,586 --> 00:41:53,774
Not to say that that happened, but just.

732
00:41:54,674 --> 00:41:57,186
It allows the water to be cloudy.

733
00:41:57,330 --> 00:42:02,102
Leah: But it's actually unfortunate that it's
also true because it doesn't matter if they've

734
00:42:02,118 --> 00:42:02,750
hit you ten times.

735
00:42:02,782 --> 00:42:05,054
If you hit them once, you're just as guilty.

736
00:42:05,174 --> 00:42:08,654
That's maybe just my own moral judgment or my
own theories.

737
00:42:08,814 --> 00:42:10,274
Moshe: And I agree with you.

738
00:42:10,694 --> 00:42:11,854
I do agree with you.

739
00:42:11,934 --> 00:42:16,790
Leah: This one subject, number four, is more
actually on my end.

740
00:42:16,942 --> 00:42:19,006
It's more of a thing that I struggle with.

741
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:21,894
I identified with this person, and I messaged

742
00:42:21,934 --> 00:42:23,274
them and I told them so.

743
00:42:23,694 --> 00:42:25,662
I was in an abusive relationship before

744
00:42:25,718 --> 00:42:27,754
meeting my husband, who has ASD.

745
00:42:28,134 --> 00:42:30,966
I have PTSD as a result of my former

746
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:32,110
relationship.

747
00:42:32,302 --> 00:42:34,670
However, ASD behaviors within my current

748
00:42:34,742 --> 00:42:37,714
relationship trigger PTSD episodes often.

749
00:42:38,094 --> 00:42:40,686
This is because some ASD behaviors, and she's

750
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:44,434
admitting here that their ASD behaviors are
not necessarily purposeful.

751
00:42:44,854 --> 00:42:50,526
That is, a lack of empathy or meltdowns mimic
narcissistic behaviors, but without the

752
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:52,874
manipulation, malice, or ill intent.

753
00:42:53,394 --> 00:42:56,034
Unfortunately, PTSD does not know the

754
00:42:56,074 --> 00:43:01,694
difference between the two and the emotional
cost to those affected with PTSD is the same.

755
00:43:02,074 --> 00:43:05,014
Feel free to direct message me if you'd like
any further information.

756
00:43:05,874 --> 00:43:07,974
This one is more on my end.

757
00:43:08,994 --> 00:43:12,026
As much as Moshe struggles developmentally, I

758
00:43:12,050 --> 00:43:16,026
actually struggle emotionally and
psychologically, which is a thing that we

759
00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:22,996
don't talk about enough in the podcast, and we
should, because a lot of people have pointed

760
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:27,292
out that I hold Moshe to task on a lot of
things, and he holds himself the task, but we

761
00:43:27,308 --> 00:43:29,700
haven't had the opportunity for him to do the
opposite.

762
00:43:29,772 --> 00:43:33,316
And I would be just as open and honest if that
were the case.

763
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:36,344
So the problem here is sometimes.

764
00:43:36,884 --> 00:43:41,612
So I've suffered from PTSD very badly in the

765
00:43:41,628 --> 00:43:41,972
past.

766
00:43:42,068 --> 00:43:45,304
I currently still have an anxiety disorder.

767
00:43:45,634 --> 00:43:51,706
And the problem with that is sometimes Moshe
just being himself or acting in a way that

768
00:43:51,890 --> 00:43:57,530
doesn't necessarily mean any harm or isn't
even harmful will trigger me.

769
00:43:57,602 --> 00:44:02,010
Because of my past, I've had several really
abusive relationships beginning from

770
00:44:02,042 --> 00:44:02,434
childhood.

771
00:44:02,474 --> 00:44:06,466
So parental abuse, friends who abused me, and

772
00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:10,274
my last relationship was interesting.

773
00:44:10,434 --> 00:44:11,922
That's a whole episode on its own.

774
00:44:11,938 --> 00:44:17,478
And again, I really have to ask them before I
disclose all of that stuff.

775
00:44:17,646 --> 00:44:20,714
But suffice it to say that it was traumatic.

776
00:44:21,574 --> 00:44:25,366
And a lot of times, just him behaving in a way

777
00:44:25,550 --> 00:44:31,366
that's natural to him will trigger me, and
I'll get upset, and that will sort of upset

778
00:44:31,390 --> 00:44:32,914
the entire apple card.

779
00:44:33,494 --> 00:44:38,882
Moshe: Yeah, it makes things a lot more
difficult because you have.

780
00:44:39,078 --> 00:44:40,162
You have a series of things.

781
00:44:40,218 --> 00:44:43,258
You have behavior that is caused by autism,

782
00:44:43,306 --> 00:44:44,426
but is still harmful.

783
00:44:44,570 --> 00:44:47,490
You have behaviors that is caused by autism

784
00:44:47,682 --> 00:44:51,826
and is not harmful and identified as such.

785
00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:53,594
And then you have behaviors that is caused by

786
00:44:53,634 --> 00:45:00,378
autism, is not necessarily harmful, but is
triggering because of resembling other

787
00:45:00,426 --> 00:45:02,494
behaviors that were harmful.

788
00:45:02,834 --> 00:45:05,570
So it kind of creates nuance in.

789
00:45:05,602 --> 00:45:09,298
In a situation for a person that doesn't
understand nuance all that well.

790
00:45:09,386 --> 00:45:11,546
Leah: Right?
And there were a couple of times where Moshe

791
00:45:11,570 --> 00:45:16,578
was like, I'm really starting to feel abused
by you because of your emotional neglect.

792
00:45:16,626 --> 00:45:22,122
You do this thing where you just go cold, and
I don't understand what I've done or, you

793
00:45:22,138 --> 00:45:24,122
know, and I had to really work on that.

794
00:45:24,178 --> 00:45:26,898
We talk about communication both ways, right?

795
00:45:26,986 --> 00:45:32,100
When you have anxiety, the first line of
defense is to shut down and go, go into

796
00:45:32,132 --> 00:45:36,144
yourself or become me, attack the other
person.

797
00:45:36,684 --> 00:45:41,660
Moshe: So there definitely needs to be clear
lines of delineation when it comes to that

798
00:45:41,692 --> 00:45:42,624
sort of thing.

799
00:45:42,964 --> 00:45:46,780
And communication, once again pops up.

800
00:45:46,892 --> 00:45:54,860
And it's one of those situations where Leah
and I have been able to discuss behaviors or

801
00:45:54,892 --> 00:46:02,698
things where she'll identify that something
that I did or said or acted in a way triggered

802
00:46:02,746 --> 00:46:10,506
her, but it was not necessarily to do with
anything that I did maliciously, but it was a

803
00:46:10,530 --> 00:46:15,090
behavior that made her feel certain ways.

804
00:46:15,282 --> 00:46:21,986
And my understanding of that was hopeful in

805
00:46:22,050 --> 00:46:28,224
understanding that it wasn't actually anything
that I did wrong, but it was a problem with

806
00:46:28,264 --> 00:46:36,520
her, and that I can help with her by
understanding her point of view.

807
00:46:36,632 --> 00:46:41,072
Leah: But in order for me to just open up and
trust enough to even say, okay, so this is

808
00:46:41,088 --> 00:46:44,096
what I'm healing, and this is what you need to
do to help me with.

809
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:50,312
It was at least a three year process on your
part, and it was stalled because a lot of

810
00:46:50,328 --> 00:46:54,116
times when I would get mad at you, you would
react the way we discussed earlier, with a

811
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:58,132
meltdowns and the gaslighting and the, you
know, I didn't and you didn't, and blah, blah,

812
00:46:58,148 --> 00:46:58,828
blah stuff.

813
00:46:58,916 --> 00:46:59,452
Moshe: Right.

814
00:46:59,588 --> 00:47:02,924
Leah: So we had to sort of rein that in before
we could work on that.

815
00:47:02,964 --> 00:47:08,836
But you do this brilliant thing now, actually,
where you'll identify that something's not

816
00:47:08,860 --> 00:47:12,452
quite right with me, and you'll say, what?
And then they'll tell you what and say, honey,

817
00:47:12,588 --> 00:47:13,944
please don't do this.

818
00:47:14,244 --> 00:47:15,948
Please, we have so much to do.

819
00:47:15,996 --> 00:47:16,828
The kids are here.

820
00:47:16,876 --> 00:47:18,068
Like, it meant nothing.

821
00:47:18,116 --> 00:47:19,068
It didn't mean anything.

822
00:47:19,116 --> 00:47:20,652
It didn't mean what you thought it meant.

823
00:47:20,708 --> 00:47:22,008
This is what I was doing.

824
00:47:22,156 --> 00:47:23,000
Please don't do this.

825
00:47:23,032 --> 00:47:24,760
Can we be okay?
Can we calm down?

826
00:47:24,872 --> 00:47:28,604
And then you'll hug me and kiss me, and
eventually I'll calm down.

827
00:47:29,624 --> 00:47:30,048
Yeah.

828
00:47:30,096 --> 00:47:33,120
So that's one interesting thing that we've

829
00:47:33,152 --> 00:47:38,216
gleaned from many, many years of trying to
deal with that in the other direction.

830
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:44,400
I guess maybe it's just, again, understanding
on my end, I'll tell him, listen, I'm feeling

831
00:47:44,432 --> 00:47:46,352
really triggered because this happened in the
past.

832
00:47:46,408 --> 00:47:48,048
I know that that's not what you're doing.

833
00:47:48,096 --> 00:47:52,336
I know logically, in my head that that's not

834
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,920
what you're doing, but my heart or my reaction
isn't able to identify that.

835
00:47:57,952 --> 00:47:58,528
Right.

836
00:47:58,696 --> 00:48:00,016
So I need a minute.

837
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:05,764
Moshe: And we're definitely getting better at
working through that, but it definitely adds

838
00:48:06,144 --> 00:48:12,728
another layer of complexity to our
relationship and, of course, the relationship

839
00:48:12,776 --> 00:48:15,260
that this person expressed.

840
00:48:15,432 --> 00:48:17,484
And once again, it really just kind of comes

841
00:48:17,524 --> 00:48:24,724
down to communication, being able to express
in a. We'll call it adult way, what's going on

842
00:48:24,804 --> 00:48:26,664
and provide.

843
00:48:28,124 --> 00:48:29,156
Someone mentioned.

844
00:48:29,220 --> 00:48:33,304
Someone wrote to me, actually, something about
reaction.

845
00:48:33,644 --> 00:48:36,580
What was it?
Like, reaction guidelines or something like

846
00:48:36,612 --> 00:48:37,904
that, which we can discuss.

847
00:48:38,404 --> 00:48:41,204
Leah: I think we did discuss it in one of the
previous episodes.

848
00:48:41,244 --> 00:48:41,636
Moshe: We did.

849
00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:46,176
Leah: Yeah. We were talking about, you start a
conversation by saying, I don't want any

850
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,496
reaction from you right now.

851
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,360
I just want you to listen, or you didn't do

852
00:48:50,392 --> 00:48:52,344
anything wrong, but we're going to talk about
this.

853
00:48:52,424 --> 00:48:53,112
We did talk.

854
00:48:53,208 --> 00:48:54,368
Moshe: Right. Okay, so.

855
00:48:54,416 --> 00:48:54,840
So that.

856
00:48:54,872 --> 00:48:57,444
That is something that factors into this.

857
00:48:57,824 --> 00:48:58,160
Right.

858
00:48:58,192 --> 00:49:03,056
We did discuss in the last episode, and it
was, you know, the thing that you did was

859
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:08,536
triggering for me not because of anything you
did, but right now, I just need you to

860
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:15,404
understand that I'm feeling whatever way I'm
feeling, and I need you to help me through it

861
00:49:15,864 --> 00:49:20,200
with the understanding that you didn't do
anything wrong.

862
00:49:20,392 --> 00:49:24,920
Leah: And that required for me to share a lot
of very difficult things from my past, which

863
00:49:24,952 --> 00:49:26,920
was really hard for you to hear sometimes.

864
00:49:26,952 --> 00:49:29,176
And we had to work through that, too, because

865
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:33,336
you sort of had this guilt of, I should have
been there for you, and this wouldn't have

866
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,962
happened if I was there to protect you and all
that stuff.

867
00:49:36,128 --> 00:49:37,950
That's more of a personality thing.

868
00:49:37,982 --> 00:49:39,622
That's more of a you being just a really great

869
00:49:39,678 --> 00:49:40,754
man thing.

870
00:49:41,934 --> 00:49:43,686
But we had to get through that as well,

871
00:49:43,710 --> 00:49:47,486
because I had to be able to tell you the
stories to explain to you why I felt the way

872
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:48,382
that I did.

873
00:49:48,558 --> 00:49:51,894
Moshe: I mean, the only way to work through a
lot of these things is by working through

874
00:49:51,934 --> 00:49:52,494
them.

875
00:49:52,654 --> 00:49:54,510
And sometimes working through them is not

876
00:49:54,542 --> 00:49:57,354
easy, but it's the only way to work through
them.

877
00:49:58,094 --> 00:50:01,474
Leah: Speaking of working through them, this
last one was really cool.

878
00:50:01,654 --> 00:50:06,290
This person wrote to me, unrelated to your
question above, but I was just looking through

879
00:50:06,322 --> 00:50:12,490
your podcast episodes, and I'm super curious,
how did you two begin talking about this, and

880
00:50:12,522 --> 00:50:16,538
how did it actually happen?
I feel like I could never talk to my husband

881
00:50:16,586 --> 00:50:21,570
about any dreams, and if I do, he takes zero
action or minimal beginning action, but

882
00:50:21,602 --> 00:50:23,014
nothing gets accomplished.

883
00:50:23,594 --> 00:50:26,562
I would love to turn our mess into a message,

884
00:50:26,738 --> 00:50:29,054
but we aren't in the victory stage yet.

885
00:50:29,524 --> 00:50:31,884
I'm really intrigued by the success you seem

886
00:50:31,924 --> 00:50:35,156
to have in your neurodivergent, neurotypical
relationship.

887
00:50:35,340 --> 00:50:36,744
It's very sweet.

888
00:50:37,084 --> 00:50:39,344
It kind of made me blush a little bit because

889
00:50:39,804 --> 00:50:43,740
my initial reaction was, we're totally not in
the victory stage yet either.

890
00:50:43,812 --> 00:50:45,252
We're not taking a victory lap.

891
00:50:45,308 --> 00:50:46,104
This is.

892
00:50:46,804 --> 00:50:52,184
You guys are actually privileged to see us in
process dealing with these things.

893
00:50:52,724 --> 00:50:54,504
Moshe: It's really kind of an ongoing.

894
00:50:55,624 --> 00:50:57,536
It's an ongoing thing.

895
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:02,640
But the reason that we did this podcast,
actually, there were a number of reasons, but

896
00:51:02,712 --> 00:51:08,928
one of the main reasons that we did this
podcast is because communication was the basis

897
00:51:08,976 --> 00:51:14,392
of how we were able to work through a lot of
the issues that we had.

898
00:51:14,568 --> 00:51:24,244
And unfortunately, a lot of other podcasts and
a lot of other series out there that discuss

899
00:51:25,344 --> 00:51:31,952
autism and neuro urgency and stuff, kind of
give it a bit of a flowery edge to it.

900
00:51:32,088 --> 00:51:36,480
And we kind of wanted to create more of a raw
experience where you were talking to a couple

901
00:51:36,512 --> 00:51:43,024
that were sort of in the midst and still
trying to work through a lot of what is going

902
00:51:43,064 --> 00:51:50,744
on with them, but still far enough through it
to share their experience and help others.

903
00:51:51,324 --> 00:51:58,300
Because being autistic is hard, and being
autistic and being in a relationship with

904
00:51:58,332 --> 00:52:02,664
someone who doesn't always speak the same
language as you is really hard.

905
00:52:02,964 --> 00:52:12,020
And being autistic and not understanding
yourself for most of your life, which I

906
00:52:12,052 --> 00:52:17,490
didn't, because on top of being autistic, I'm
an adult, a diagnosed autistic, who spent my

907
00:52:17,522 --> 00:52:22,922
entire life just thinking that there was
something dreadfully wrong with me was

908
00:52:22,978 --> 00:52:23,810
difficult.

909
00:52:24,002 --> 00:52:27,338
And we really wanted to be able to give people

910
00:52:27,386 --> 00:52:34,334
an insight into our situation and our family
and discuss some of the progress that we made.

911
00:52:35,194 --> 00:52:38,602
Leah: So a lot of it is, you know, message to
message.

912
00:52:38,658 --> 00:52:39,916
I really like that.

913
00:52:40,090 --> 00:52:43,216
But our current mess is the message.

914
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:49,112
We haven't completely cleaned up the mess yet,
so it's a messy message, if you will.

915
00:52:49,288 --> 00:52:54,072
Yeah, but the whole, you know, how did you fix
your husband thing?

916
00:52:54,128 --> 00:52:55,184
It's a little bit.

917
00:52:55,344 --> 00:52:56,848
It's a little bit sad in a way.

918
00:52:56,896 --> 00:53:03,152
It's a little bit like crazy hopeful on this
person's part, maybe, because the reality is,

919
00:53:03,288 --> 00:53:10,332
if we're doing our job correctly, will never
be done with this until the day we die.

920
00:53:10,388 --> 00:53:15,212
We'll never be done with this if we're doing
our job right, because he is not a problem to

921
00:53:15,228 --> 00:53:18,180
be fixed and I am not a problem to be fixed.

922
00:53:18,372 --> 00:53:21,516
It's just, does that person's garbage go with

923
00:53:21,540 --> 00:53:24,764
your garbage?
And that's the best you can hope for in any

924
00:53:24,804 --> 00:53:25,944
relationship, really?

925
00:53:26,364 --> 00:53:29,596
Moshe: Yes. Relationships are not meant to be
perfect.

926
00:53:29,740 --> 00:53:36,032
They're not meant to be victory laps where
everything is done and they can just lay back

927
00:53:36,088 --> 00:53:38,376
and coast for the rest of their lives.

928
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,120
You have to constantly be working on your

929
00:53:42,152 --> 00:53:46,976
relationship in order to have a healthy
relationship, because the minute that you

930
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,472
become complacent and start taking a victory
lap, you end up getting hit in the back of the

931
00:53:51,488 --> 00:53:55,040
head with a baton, right?

932
00:53:55,232 --> 00:53:56,444
Leah: Absolutely.

933
00:53:57,404 --> 00:54:05,028
Moshe: So we're running a little bit long in
time, so we'll get to, I guess, our final

934
00:54:05,196 --> 00:54:12,092
story and also some really exciting news so
that we can at least end what is a very

935
00:54:12,148 --> 00:54:16,824
serious podcast on a very hopeful tone.

936
00:54:17,924 --> 00:54:25,288
Leah: So this one is a story that somebody
shared with Moshe, and it's only one, but it's

937
00:54:25,336 --> 00:54:28,632
extremely important because it's two things.

938
00:54:28,688 --> 00:54:31,296
It's an autistic sharing their story with

939
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,136
another autistic, but it's also a man sharing
their story with another man.

940
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,776
Yes, and as we postulated at the beginning of
this episode, people don't seem to think that

941
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,000
men can be abused, right?

942
00:54:42,192 --> 00:54:48,460
Moshe: Maybe we'll save the personal story of
my experience for another episode because

943
00:54:48,572 --> 00:54:51,704
we're running a bit low on time, but so we'll
start the story.

944
00:54:52,044 --> 00:54:56,544
This person who I don't know, we'll call him
subject five.

945
00:54:57,044 --> 00:55:02,024
He writes, June 16 is my 32nd birthday.

946
00:55:02,324 --> 00:55:04,044
I'm an autistic male.

947
00:55:04,204 --> 00:55:09,076
I was in a nine year long relationship prior
to my now wife of seven years.

948
00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:12,684
I was undiagnosed in this previous
relationship and because of that I really

949
00:55:12,724 --> 00:55:14,584
struggled with knowing how to meet my needs.

950
00:55:14,984 --> 00:55:16,976
My partner at the time heavily took advantage

951
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:18,024
of me for that.

952
00:55:18,184 --> 00:55:22,936
I did everything that I was asked for, but

953
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:28,604
she'd get angry if it was difficult for me or
if it had any sort of hurt or upset emotions.

954
00:55:28,984 --> 00:55:31,056
Especially after she would yell at me.

955
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,440
I was screamed at, belittled, sexually abused,

956
00:55:34,552 --> 00:55:35,924
and physically hit.

957
00:55:36,904 --> 00:55:40,884
I am a 6ft tall, 200 pound man, so I'm larger

958
00:55:40,924 --> 00:55:44,092
than she was, but I never use that to my
advantage.

959
00:55:44,268 --> 00:55:49,924
It took many years after finally I left that
relationship to begin to heal and get

960
00:55:49,964 --> 00:55:54,104
diagnosed and eventually learn how to be a
better person for myself and my wife.

961
00:55:54,604 --> 00:55:56,264
My partner is neurotypical.

962
00:55:56,644 --> 00:55:59,332
She had a lot of insecurities which caused

963
00:55:59,388 --> 00:56:04,804
lots of large fights, and during these fights
she would verbally insult me for being

964
00:56:04,844 --> 00:56:05,736
autistic.

965
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:07,792
She would intentionally tell me things that

966
00:56:07,808 --> 00:56:09,592
would trigger an emotional response.

967
00:56:09,728 --> 00:56:13,080
And when I would break down and cry, she would

968
00:56:13,112 --> 00:56:19,080
get physical and hit me, push me or slap me
and tell me that I was pathetic, that nobody

969
00:56:19,112 --> 00:56:23,484
would love someone like me except for her and
that I was broken.

970
00:56:24,024 --> 00:56:31,994
And he mentioned that he has a brain tumor
that messes with his hormones, so he he has

971
00:56:32,034 --> 00:56:37,746
some dysfunction in the bedroom and he said
whenever that would happen, she would accuse

972
00:56:37,770 --> 00:56:42,254
him of not being a real man or say that he was
clearly cheating on her.

973
00:56:42,794 --> 00:56:48,174
But he added that she was clearly projecting
because she cheated on him seven times.

974
00:56:48,634 --> 00:56:50,454
He said, I didn't know any better.

975
00:56:50,754 --> 00:56:52,914
I am a huge people pleaser.

976
00:56:53,074 --> 00:56:58,912
So when she yelled at me, I just accepted it
and apologized profusely and it caused massive

977
00:56:58,968 --> 00:57:04,964
sexual trauma down the line as well as a lot
of emotional trauma and lots of dysregulation.

978
00:57:05,744 --> 00:57:09,444
Leah: Well, I don't have a lot to say there.

979
00:57:09,744 --> 00:57:12,120
The only thing that I can say is that to

980
00:57:12,152 --> 00:57:17,144
subject five and everybody else who goes
through something like that, I am so sorry

981
00:57:17,184 --> 00:57:18,640
that that happened to you.

982
00:57:18,832 --> 00:57:20,480
Nobody deserves that.

983
00:57:20,672 --> 00:57:25,002
Not only does nobody deserve that, but nobody
deserves society.

984
00:57:25,138 --> 00:57:30,666
General lack of concern for men in abusive
relationships or disbelief that men can be

985
00:57:30,690 --> 00:57:32,174
abused in relationships.

986
00:57:32,594 --> 00:57:34,570
Hearing that story, I know how much you can

987
00:57:34,602 --> 00:57:39,214
identify with it, like almost on every single
point.

988
00:57:40,314 --> 00:57:43,494
And that makes me very sad for him and for
you.

989
00:57:43,874 --> 00:57:46,306
Moshe: Men can also be the victim of abuse.

990
00:57:46,410 --> 00:57:52,122
And just because a guy is a big man, I'm also

991
00:57:52,298 --> 00:57:56,594
about, you know, 511 6ft and over 200 pounds.

992
00:57:56,714 --> 00:57:59,258
It doesn't mean that just because you happen

993
00:57:59,306 --> 00:58:03,174
to be a large man that you're not capable of
being abused.

994
00:58:04,154 --> 00:58:10,058
It also definitely makes it a lot harder to be
believed because, like, how could someone like

995
00:58:10,106 --> 00:58:11,586
smaller than you do that to you?

996
00:58:11,650 --> 00:58:12,842
Leah: Absolutely.

997
00:58:13,018 --> 00:58:19,724
Moshe: So it's very rough and we're very
hopeful now that he said that he's in a new

998
00:58:19,764 --> 00:58:20,524
relationship.

999
00:58:20,644 --> 00:58:23,212
And in speaking with him further about his

1000
00:58:23,268 --> 00:58:29,396
situation, he seems to be very happy with his
partner and he seems to have figured his lone

1001
00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:30,344
life out.

1002
00:58:30,844 --> 00:58:35,900
So thank you very much for listening to this

1003
00:58:35,932 --> 00:58:36,884
podcast today.

1004
00:58:37,004 --> 00:58:39,476
There's a lot more stuff to discuss and I'm

1005
00:58:39,500 --> 00:58:42,564
sure we'll turn it into a future episode.

1006
00:58:42,604 --> 00:58:46,156
Leah: I think we have to promise them another
episode with your personal story now though,

1007
00:58:46,180 --> 00:58:46,690
moshe.

1008
00:58:46,772 --> 00:58:49,790
Moshe: Oh yeah, we'll definitely talk about my
personal story.

1009
00:58:49,942 --> 00:58:57,486
I'm curious now because my own story of abuse
does not fill up an entire podcast.

1010
00:58:57,550 --> 00:58:59,274
Leah: Or it does.

1011
00:59:00,334 --> 00:59:06,382
Moshe: Well, we'll save it for a future
episode and I'm sure we'll make something out

1012
00:59:06,398 --> 00:59:07,074
of it.

1013
00:59:07,374 --> 00:59:07,974
But.

1014
00:59:08,094 --> 00:59:20,872
So a few episodes ago, we discussed that we
had discovered a couple online that was kind

1015
00:59:20,888 --> 00:59:23,284
of a mirror image of us.

1016
00:59:23,704 --> 00:59:27,800
I am a neurodivergent man in a relationship

1017
00:59:27,832 --> 00:59:33,536
with a neurotypical woman, and they are a
neurodivergent woman in a relationship with a

1018
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:34,844
neurotypical man.

1019
00:59:35,184 --> 00:59:37,312
And we've been talking back and forth.

1020
00:59:37,448 --> 00:59:38,376
Leah: It gets better.

1021
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,636
We have a son who's neurodivergent and they

1022
00:59:41,660 --> 00:59:43,852
have a daughter who's neurotypical.

1023
00:59:43,948 --> 00:59:45,732
Moshe: Yes. So they're.

1024
00:59:45,788 --> 00:59:47,700
They're a lovely couple and you can find them

1025
00:59:47,732 --> 00:59:51,300
on TikTok under study show as well as
Instagram.

1026
00:59:51,372 --> 00:59:56,636
I think their names are Adam and Becca and
they are amazing.

1027
00:59:56,820 --> 01:00:04,380
And hopefully next week we will be doing an
episode which we're still trying to work out.

1028
01:00:04,412 --> 01:00:13,396
The details of with them to discuss our
situations and chat with them about some of

1029
01:00:13,420 --> 01:00:17,788
our common interests and things that we share
in common.

1030
01:00:17,876 --> 01:00:23,332
But definitely go on TikTok and Instagram and
check out study show, and they.

1031
01:00:23,348 --> 01:00:27,284
Leah: Have a podcast called I think it's the
poison or the Alchemist.

1032
01:00:27,444 --> 01:00:29,704
Moshe: They have a podcast about.

1033
01:00:30,004 --> 01:00:31,436
Leah: It's about poisons.

1034
01:00:31,620 --> 01:00:32,708
It's very nerdy.

1035
01:00:32,796 --> 01:00:33,744
Moshe: I like it.

1036
01:00:34,094 --> 01:00:34,966
Could look it up.

1037
01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:36,678
I wish I could remember the name.

1038
01:00:36,846 --> 01:00:39,670
We'll put it in the, in the comments or the

1039
01:00:39,702 --> 01:00:44,718
description of this episode once we look it
up, but check it out and hopefully next week,

1040
01:00:44,766 --> 01:00:45,086
we'll.

1041
01:00:45,150 --> 01:00:48,214
Leah: We'Ll have an episode with the Poisoners
almanac is what?

1042
01:00:48,334 --> 01:00:49,334
Moshe: Poisoners almanac.

1043
01:00:49,374 --> 01:00:49,926
There it is.

1044
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:51,406
Thank you, Leah.

1045
01:00:51,470 --> 01:00:53,998
With, with the say, poisoners Almanac study

1046
01:00:54,046 --> 01:00:55,502
show on TikTok and Instagram.

1047
01:00:55,558 --> 01:00:57,350
And hopefully next week we'll have an episode

1048
01:00:57,382 --> 01:01:00,564
where we'll, we'll all talk about stuff.

1049
01:01:00,644 --> 01:01:00,924
Leah: Stuff.

1050
01:01:00,964 --> 01:01:01,636
Moshe: We'll figure it out.

1051
01:01:01,700 --> 01:01:02,044
Leah: Yeah.

1052
01:01:02,124 --> 01:01:05,916
Moshe: So because of the nature of this
podcast episode, we're not going to have the

1053
01:01:05,940 --> 01:01:09,668
standard intro and extro because we thought it
was just a bit too peppy.

1054
01:01:09,836 --> 01:01:11,468
But again, thank you so much.

1055
01:01:11,556 --> 01:01:15,052
And if you were someone you care about is in

1056
01:01:15,068 --> 01:01:19,284
an abusive situation, you can either check out
the resources in the description to this

1057
01:01:19,324 --> 01:01:22,900
episode or you could look up on Google.

1058
01:01:22,932 --> 01:01:28,536
But please, please don't feel that you have to

1059
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,124
put up with that kind of situation.

1060
01:01:32,064 --> 01:01:34,920
Seek resources and get help.

1061
01:01:35,072 --> 01:01:36,280
Leave if you have to.

1062
01:01:36,352 --> 01:01:38,840
The communication is key.

1063
01:01:38,992 --> 01:01:39,744
We'll see you next week.