Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
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Moshe: Welcome to a special episode of now you
know one autistic.
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This week we'll be discussing the topic of
abuse in relationships, specifically
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relationships between neurotypicals and
neurodivergents.
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In researching this topic, we reached out to
people across various social media platforms
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and asked them to share their experiences of
abuse with us.
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We read everything that was sent to us and we
chose a selection of the stories to talk about
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today.
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A lot of the stories that were sent to us
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involved subject matter that was either too
graphic to feel comfortable discussing in this
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form, or involved subjects that Leah and I are
simply not qualified to discuss with the
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depths of understanding necessary to be
helpful.
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In the end, we chose a handful of stories that
each of us can relate to from our own and
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joint experience.
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If you or someone that you care about is or
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may be the victim of abuse, we have included a
selection of resources in the episode
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description.
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Listener discretion is advised.
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Leah: Let's get started.
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Hi, moshe.
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Moshe: Hi, leah.
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Leah: How are you today, sweetheart?
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Moshe: I'm well, thank you.
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Leah: So today is the beginning.
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A few episodes that we're going to be doing in
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the upcoming future that are less light
hearted than our usual fare.
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Moshe: Yes, you may have noticed our usual
peppy intro is absent in lieu of a, I guess
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you can call it, flag service announcement.
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Just to kind of lend itself a little bit more
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to the more serious tone of this episode.
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Leah: Yes, and maybe some future ones, but
this is the only one we have planned for the
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moment.
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Moshe: Right.
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Leah: I do feel the need to also include the
fact that when we are sharing the stories, all
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the memes have been left out or.
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Moshe: Absolutely.
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Leah: As well as any distinguishing
characteristics, maybe other than gender.
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Right.
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So it'll be like my husband, my wife, stuff
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like that.
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Moshe: Right.
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Leah: So the first thing that I thought would
be helpful to do would be to define abuse.
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You would think that most people would know or
understand what abuse is, but it's actually
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quite complex, isn't it?
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Moshe: Yeah. I mean, traditionally when you
think of the word abuse, you sometimes think
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of like, hitting and slapping, pushing and
punching and stuff.
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But it's a lot more complex than that, isn't
it?
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Leah: It absolutely is.
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So I'm going to just read a little bit of an
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overview that I found while I was doing some
research.
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So, abuse is when someone causes us harm or
distress.
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It can take many forms, ranging from
disrespect to causing someone physical or
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mental pain.
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It can occur in someone's home, a care home, a
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hospital, or in a public place.
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Often the people who commit abuse are taking
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advantage of a special relationship.
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So that is an important part of what we're
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talking about today, because a relationship
between a neurotypical and a neurodivergent is
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an extremely special relationship.
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And if one or the other doesn't handle it with
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the care that it deserves, then it can
definitely devolve into something that can
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cause harm, pain, and distress to one or both
people.
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Moshe: Yes, absolutely.
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Leah: They may be a family member, a friend,
or a paid care worker who we expect to trust.
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Sometimes abuse is not intentional, but
happens because someone does not have the
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skills or support needed to take care of
someone.
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That does not make the impact of it any less,
but it can help to understand how it happened.
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Anyone, and this is another important point
that we want to touch on, anyone, can become a
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victim of abuse.
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It is no reflection of their intelligence,
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strength, or worth.
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However, people with care and support needs,
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such as older people or people with
disabilities, are more likely to be abused or
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neglected.
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They may be seen as an easy target or may be
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less likely to identify abuse themselves or
report it.
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People with communication difficulties can be
particularly at risk because they may not be
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able to alert others.
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Sometimes people may not even be aware that
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they are being abused, and this is especially
likely if they have a cognitive impairment.
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Abusers may try to prevent access to the
person that they abuse.
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That's called isolation.
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That's well known when it comes to domestic
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abuse.
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But it can happen in all types of abuse,
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right, Moshe?
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Moshe: Absolutely.
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And unfortunately, when it comes to the forms
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of abuse that a lot of neurodivergence and
autistics are particularly susceptible to,
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isolation is, in my experience and in my
research, very common, along with emotional
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abuse, because, unfortunately, people with
developmental or cognitive impairments or
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developmental delays, like autistics such as
myself, they end up being very suggestible and
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sometimes a little bit too trusting.
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And I think I mentioned in a previous episode,
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I don't even remember which one.
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At this point, I discussed the comparison
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between autism in people with Williams
syndrome, which is a genetic disorder that
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actually really would have been a good topic
in our discussion on the genetics of autism.
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And we may actually, I think we may have
talked about it, but one of the
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characteristics that is common between people
with William syndrome and people with autism,
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and actually, when you really look into it,
other forms of cognitive impairment, is that
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they don't really have a concept of fear, like
self protection.
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They end up trusting everyone, because when
you lack the ability to understand nuance,
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then you have really no choice but to take
everyone at their word.
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And often that does leave you susceptible to
suggestion, which can easily translate in the
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wrong hands, we'll say, to emotional and
psychological abuse.
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Leah: Right.
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So the flip side of that is also, when someone
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has a cognitive impairment like that, they
can't necessarily read signs, symptoms, know
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how to communicate with others, know how they
should be treating others, and that can lead
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itself to abuse in the other direction if the
other individual doesn't understand exactly
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what's going on or how to deal with it.
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Moshe: Yeah.
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Leah: It's not purposeful abuse.
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It's almost abused by neglect.
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Moshe: And that is really.
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It's a bit of a slippery slope.
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And unfortunately, it's certainly not talked
about enough.
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Leah: Oh, it will be in this episode.
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Moshe: Yeah. And that's actually the impetus.
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One of the impetuses that we had for doing
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this episode was in researching topics for
discussion on this podcast.
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We talked about a study that I'd read at one
point, where people with autism and
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neurodiversity end up being far more
susceptible for the reasons that I mentioned
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to amuse.
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And so Leah discussed, as we will in this
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episode, about how that often happens the
other way.
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So we did some research and discovered that,
unfortunately, there is significant abuse that
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goes the other way with a person with
neurodivergency or autism can often be the
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abuser.
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Leah: There is scientifically documented abuse
in the other direction.
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But the overwhelming majority of what I found
was when I asked that women in my exact
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position, so often with a male spouse who was
neurodivergent, are suffering really bad
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abuse.
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And it may not actually be the husband's
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fault, again, because he doesn't understand.
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And it's not her fault, because what we're
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told is when we have a neurodivergent partner,
we just have to accept everything, because
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otherwise it's ableism or you're not accepting
them, or you're trying to, you know, change
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them or etc. Etc.
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Etcetera.
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Moshe: And, I mean, we certainly don't want to
say in this podcast that people with autism
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are, like, naturally abusing other people.
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It's.
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It's really.
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It's kind of like pulling the curtain back a
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little bit and saying that, yes, people with
cognitive impairments or developmental delays
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or intellectual disabilities are legitimately
disabled.
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And a lot of the time, they don't necessarily
have ill intention, but they can just as
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easily perpetrate the same kinds of abuse that
they would find in a neurotypical person.
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And it's even, as you mentioned, it's even
more unfortunate because a lot of the time,
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they're not even aware that they're doing it.
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Leah: I got an overwhelming response.
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And again, it was mostly women in my
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situation, and mostly they just wanted to be
heard.
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They were like, thank you so much for asking
this, because nobody believes me, and that's
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really hard.
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Moshe: Yeah. So we have a bunch of stories.
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Leah: Some of them were too, as you said, they
were too harsh to share, and I won't be, and
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we won't be because they require professional
intervention, which I suggested to these
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people personally and showed a lot of concern
there.
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Moshe: And, yeah, it was actually very
upsetting, some of the stories that people
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shared with us, not just as an autistic
hearing what other neurodivergents are doing
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to other people, but, you know, as a man, and,
I mean, I'll share my experiences a little bit
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later on in the show, but you definitely don't
like to see that kind of thing being
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perpetuated.
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It unfortunately, sort of perpetuates a
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stereotype that is not very pleasant.
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Leah: Yes, but a lot of people also don't
understand that men can be abused, too.
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Moshe: They can.
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Leah: And of the two of us, I think we both
suffered a lot of abuse in past relationships,
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but of the two of us, you suffered at least an
equal amount, if not more.
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Moshe: Yeah. And it was one of those
situations that really, it really made me
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question myself, and it unfortunately brought
me to our relationship with.
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With a lot of damage that will, of course, be
happy to discuss.
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I mean, not happy, but we'll be open to
discussing.
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Leah: We'll be open to discussing, maybe not
all in this episode, because it's a lot.
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And as we always keep saying, the ultimate
solution to all of these problems is
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communication.
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That's why we just never stop talking about
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it.
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Moshe: Yes. The thread that weaves itself
through our podcast in previous, current and
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future episodes is the cure all, if you will,
to all of these situations is healthy
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communication.
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And when communication becomes unhealthy,
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identifying it and coming up with a solution,
which unfortunately, in many cases does
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sometimes involve ending the relationship.
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Leah: Let's speak very briefly about the types
of abuse.
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Let's touch on them real quick.
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And it's important not because I want to give
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a list or be like nerdy or whatever, but it's
important because some of it is actually
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extremely nuanced, which could be why a lot of
neurodivergents struggle with the concepts,
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because they're obvious ones.
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So the first few are obviously physical abuse,
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right?
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Moshe: Punching, kicking, slapping, pushing,
like the outward signs of abuse.
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You, you would traditionally, and I say
traditionally, like half a century ago, when
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you would say, my spouse is abusive.
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It almost always meant that you.
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That they hit them.
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Leah: Domestic violence or abuse, which is,
again, it's mostly looked at as one spouse
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hitting the other or, you know, just getting.
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If the wife burns the food, just getting
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really mad at her, or, you know, if the guy
doesn't, I don't know, mow the lawn properly,
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she makes fun of him or something.
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All those types of things can be considered
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domestic abuse.
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Moshe: Also.
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Leah: Violence is within that as well.
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Moshe: Domestic abuse is typically, you know,
abuse that happens between a couple.
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Leah: Sexual abuse is obvious, right?
It's often somebody abusing their authority in
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order to do sexual things to someone else or
people doing things to each other without
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consent.
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Moshe: Sexual abuse can actually be both
extremes.
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It can be forceful sexual acts performed or
demanded from or on one person, but it can
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also be withholding sexual acts from one or,
you know, person, such as, I won't do this
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with you if you don't do this for me.
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Leah: Got it.
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Psychological or emotional abuse, that one's
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pretty obvious as well.
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So, you know, not being careful with someone's
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emotions, saying insults to them, being mean
to them, putting them down, destroying their
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self esteem.
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Moshe: Gaslighted.
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Leah: Gaslighting.
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Moshe: Gaslighting is an interesting subject,
especially when it comes to autistics.
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And it really comes back to something that we
mentioned in our previous episode on
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communications and resolving conflicts, which
you can listen to on all podcasting and
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streaming sites that have to do with the need
for an autistic to always be right or to
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correct inaccuracies that even they determine.
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And it can often sound very much like, you
232
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always do this, or you never do that, or I
didn't do the thing.
233
00:13:57,552 --> 00:13:59,240
You must have imagined it.
234
00:13:59,392 --> 00:14:02,120
Leah: My favorite one is, I was fine until you
brought it up.
235
00:14:02,272 --> 00:14:04,288
No, you weren't, because I wouldn't have
brought it up.
236
00:14:04,416 --> 00:14:11,400
Moshe: You're always bringing up that I forget
things, or you're always mentioning that I
237
00:14:11,432 --> 00:14:16,564
embarrass you, or you're always doing the
thing, or you're just saying that to upset,
238
00:14:16,684 --> 00:14:23,420
you know, basically, you're saying a thing in
a way that makes the other person question
239
00:14:23,492 --> 00:14:26,092
their own memory, which is very deep.
240
00:14:26,268 --> 00:14:27,924
Leah: Financial or material abuse.
241
00:14:27,964 --> 00:14:30,212
That is, taking money from people that you
242
00:14:30,228 --> 00:14:34,268
shouldn't take or taking their things or using
them for stuff.
243
00:14:34,316 --> 00:14:39,540
Like you did mention, I believe, that coworker
of yours who you paid off her credit card.
244
00:14:39,572 --> 00:14:42,088
She was actually financially abusive to you.
245
00:14:42,276 --> 00:14:42,664
Yes.
246
00:14:42,704 --> 00:14:46,248
Moshe: If you cared about me, you would pay my
credit card bill.
247
00:14:46,416 --> 00:14:48,880
If you were a really nice guy.
248
00:14:49,072 --> 00:14:50,936
You're not a bad person, are you?
249
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,272
Because you're not a mean boss.
250
00:14:53,328 --> 00:14:54,224
You're a nice boss.
251
00:14:54,264 --> 00:14:58,944
And if you were a nice boss, you would pay off
my credit card bill so I could come to work
252
00:14:58,984 --> 00:15:00,920
and be in a better frame of mind.
253
00:15:01,112 --> 00:15:04,592
That is definitely financial abuse right now.
254
00:15:04,688 --> 00:15:06,864
Leah: Those ones were the relatively obvious
ones.
255
00:15:06,904 --> 00:15:08,564
These ones are more nuanced.
256
00:15:08,884 --> 00:15:10,824
Discriminatory abuse.
257
00:15:11,444 --> 00:15:18,396
Moshe: Discriminatory abuse is extremely
nuanced, and it can also fall into a category
258
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:20,772
of any of the other forms of abuse.
259
00:15:20,828 --> 00:15:25,804
For example, if you are a particular kind of
260
00:15:25,964 --> 00:15:32,180
person, based on your culture, your race, your
income class, you know, trying to think of
261
00:15:32,212 --> 00:15:33,580
some, someone refusing.
262
00:15:33,612 --> 00:15:36,948
Leah: To give you a job because you're a
certain gender or your skin is a certain
263
00:15:36,996 --> 00:15:37,422
color.
264
00:15:37,508 --> 00:15:47,506
Moshe: Yes. Basically crying racism or sexism
or transphobia or homophobia or income in
265
00:15:47,530 --> 00:15:47,930
disparity.
266
00:15:47,962 --> 00:15:51,254
You're only rejecting me for this job because
267
00:15:51,954 --> 00:15:58,330
I'm poor or basically using their status
against them.
268
00:15:58,402 --> 00:16:00,418
Leah: You won't date me because I'm not
six'four.
269
00:16:00,506 --> 00:16:02,018
Like that kind of thing.
270
00:16:02,146 --> 00:16:06,940
Moshe: Like, you know, I can do whatever I
want to you because no one will believe you
271
00:16:06,972 --> 00:16:07,944
because I'm.
272
00:16:08,244 --> 00:16:08,812
And you're.
273
00:16:08,868 --> 00:16:09,452
Mmm.
274
00:16:09,588 --> 00:16:10,316
Leah: Type of thing.
275
00:16:10,380 --> 00:16:11,004
Yeah.
276
00:16:11,164 --> 00:16:16,436
Moshe: That is an example of abuse based on
discriminatory content, I guess.
277
00:16:16,580 --> 00:16:19,636
Leah: Yep. Organizational or institutional
abuse, it's pretty obvious.
278
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:24,796
It's, you know, if you're in the hospital and
your care worker hits you or does stuff to
279
00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:26,564
you, care aid.
280
00:16:26,604 --> 00:16:31,420
Moshe: And abuse in the medical system is a
whole other topic.
281
00:16:31,452 --> 00:16:33,076
And certainly outside of our wheelhouse.
282
00:16:33,100 --> 00:16:33,604
Leah: Oh, absolutely.
283
00:16:33,644 --> 00:16:34,948
Moshe: But it definitely does exist.
284
00:16:34,996 --> 00:16:37,806
And I'm sure there's plenty of other podcasts
285
00:16:37,830 --> 00:16:39,230
that have to do with healthcare.
286
00:16:39,382 --> 00:16:43,102
Leah: Institution abuse, but it's here, so I
mentioned it, or it's not.
287
00:16:43,278 --> 00:16:44,614
Now, this one is a big one.
288
00:16:44,654 --> 00:16:46,142
Neglect and acts of omission.
289
00:16:46,278 --> 00:16:51,342
This seems to be the one that, on the
neurodivergent side, they're most guilty of.
290
00:16:51,518 --> 00:17:02,122
Moshe: Yes. And it really kind of comes down
to a lack of, wait for it, communication, for
291
00:17:02,138 --> 00:17:06,534
example, the understanding of what the other
person needs.
292
00:17:06,914 --> 00:17:14,594
If you don't have the ability to have, as you
like to say, the theory of mind, then what
293
00:17:14,634 --> 00:17:17,014
works for you may not work for someone else.
294
00:17:17,594 --> 00:17:21,534
One of the particular options is affection.
295
00:17:21,874 --> 00:17:25,018
You don't care about me at all.
296
00:17:25,066 --> 00:17:25,930
You don't love me.
297
00:17:25,962 --> 00:17:27,842
You don't, you know, you don't.
298
00:17:27,898 --> 00:17:28,450
You don't.
299
00:17:28,562 --> 00:17:29,322
You don't love me.
300
00:17:29,378 --> 00:17:30,938
Let's go with, you don't love me.
301
00:17:31,106 --> 00:17:36,122
And if you were talking to somebody who might
have some aversions to certain acts, they
302
00:17:36,138 --> 00:17:37,122
might go, of course I love you.
303
00:17:37,138 --> 00:17:38,818
I'm always looking over at you, and I'm always
304
00:17:38,866 --> 00:17:39,938
smiling at you.
305
00:17:40,066 --> 00:17:41,498
What more do you need from me?
306
00:17:41,586 --> 00:17:41,834
Leah: Right.
307
00:17:41,874 --> 00:17:44,066
This is absolutely from personal experience.
308
00:17:44,170 --> 00:17:44,410
Yes.
309
00:17:44,442 --> 00:17:45,322
Moshe: I made you coffee.
310
00:17:45,378 --> 00:17:47,106
What more do you need for me to show you that
311
00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:47,722
I care about?
312
00:17:47,778 --> 00:17:51,818
Leah: Yeah. So the way that would go would be,
well, I need this from you in order to feel
313
00:17:51,866 --> 00:17:52,098
good.
314
00:17:52,146 --> 00:17:53,962
And he would say, I'm not doing that.
315
00:17:53,978 --> 00:17:54,886
I don't want it.
316
00:17:55,050 --> 00:17:59,478
And that in a one time instance is fine, or in
317
00:17:59,486 --> 00:18:01,358
a few time instances, fine.
318
00:18:01,526 --> 00:18:04,990
But when it's consistent, it literally does
319
00:18:05,022 --> 00:18:06,494
whittle down on someone's self esteem.
320
00:18:06,534 --> 00:18:09,334
And it is a form of abuse through neglect.
321
00:18:09,494 --> 00:18:14,518
Moshe: Yes. And again, it really does come
into communication, which is something that
322
00:18:14,686 --> 00:18:17,846
neurodivergents and autistics often struggle
with.
323
00:18:18,030 --> 00:18:22,722
And I bring up affection because it is such a
nuanced topic.
324
00:18:22,898 --> 00:18:30,026
And we have received stories from people who
were feeling exceptionally neglected by their
325
00:18:30,050 --> 00:18:35,586
partner because their partner never wanted to
hug them or kiss them or have sex with them or
326
00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:36,370
touch them.
327
00:18:36,522 --> 00:18:39,570
And when they brought it up, it was, you know,
328
00:18:39,642 --> 00:18:42,666
you know, that that's hard for me, or, you
know, that I can't do that.
329
00:18:42,730 --> 00:18:44,882
Leah: That's begged the question how they
ended up together.
330
00:18:44,978 --> 00:18:49,710
I can tell you we ended up together because of
our shared history and the rest of it got
331
00:18:49,742 --> 00:18:50,214
worked on.
332
00:18:50,254 --> 00:18:52,950
But if you're dating somebody and they're like
333
00:18:52,982 --> 00:18:56,582
that from the outside and it doesn't work for
you, it kind of does bring up the question for
334
00:18:56,598 --> 00:18:58,246
me why they're together at all.
335
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:59,214
Moshe: Communication.
336
00:18:59,334 --> 00:19:02,110
And if you've just met someone and you've
337
00:19:02,182 --> 00:19:05,702
theoretically gone through the process of
dating them and then deciding to enter into a
338
00:19:05,718 --> 00:19:10,814
long term relationship, at what point did you
realize that this person doesn't like kisses
339
00:19:10,894 --> 00:19:15,616
or hugs or touching?
Like, how could you be together for months or
340
00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:21,032
years and suddenly realize that your partner
never wants to touch you?
341
00:19:21,088 --> 00:19:23,844
Leah: That's also very complex because masking
is a thing.
342
00:19:24,344 --> 00:19:28,304
I lived with you for about a month before you
told me you didn't actually like kissing.
343
00:19:28,424 --> 00:19:34,872
Moshe: Yes. Masking brings another level into
it, because autistics are often able to do
344
00:19:34,928 --> 00:19:37,124
certain things that make them very
uncomfortable.
345
00:19:37,464 --> 00:19:43,406
One off, or for limited periods of time, or
for a certain amount of time before they're
346
00:19:43,430 --> 00:19:48,526
unable to maintain the mask, in which case
they'll suddenly decide, one day, I don't want
347
00:19:48,550 --> 00:19:49,534
you to touch me.
348
00:19:49,654 --> 00:19:52,046
And quite rightly, the partner will go, well,
349
00:19:52,070 --> 00:19:55,534
you've never had a problem with it, like,
since we started.
350
00:19:55,654 --> 00:19:57,206
Yeah, but I actually don't like it.
351
00:19:57,230 --> 00:20:01,062
And I was, you know, I was trying to be okay
352
00:20:01,078 --> 00:20:02,422
with it, but I actually don't want you to do
it.
353
00:20:02,438 --> 00:20:03,670
And I never liked it.
354
00:20:03,822 --> 00:20:07,154
Leah: What that can look like is lying,
manipulation.
355
00:20:07,784 --> 00:20:09,016
It's absolutely not.
356
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:10,376
I want to be clear on that.
357
00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:10,712
Moshe: Right.
358
00:20:10,768 --> 00:20:15,800
Leah: But it absolutely can look like it to a
casual observer, especially a neurotypical
359
00:20:15,872 --> 00:20:18,084
whose brain works that way.
360
00:20:18,384 --> 00:20:20,256
If they did something like that, it would
361
00:20:20,360 --> 00:20:22,088
probably be with malicious intent.
362
00:20:22,136 --> 00:20:25,444
So they don't understand necessarily.
363
00:20:26,464 --> 00:20:28,360
The next one is self neglect.
364
00:20:28,552 --> 00:20:30,352
That one, actually, I kind of think about my
365
00:20:30,368 --> 00:20:30,924
mom.
366
00:20:32,144 --> 00:20:33,722
Moshe: Talk about self neglect.
367
00:20:33,888 --> 00:20:37,902
Leah: Self neglect, I would presume, is when
you literally neglect to take care of
368
00:20:37,918 --> 00:20:38,606
yourself.
369
00:20:38,790 --> 00:20:40,966
So, again, thinking about my mom, she doesn't
370
00:20:40,990 --> 00:20:42,398
take her medication properly.
371
00:20:42,446 --> 00:20:45,350
She doesn't make sure that she eats properly.
372
00:20:45,422 --> 00:20:47,534
She doesn't make sure she's hydrated properly.
373
00:20:47,574 --> 00:20:49,766
She doesn't do her medical care properly, and
374
00:20:49,790 --> 00:20:53,110
that's led her to a lot of health problems
very, very young.
375
00:20:53,262 --> 00:20:56,354
So she's essentially abusing herself through
neglect.
376
00:20:56,734 --> 00:21:00,692
Moshe: And that can often happen in
relationships on both sides.
377
00:21:00,878 --> 00:21:10,832
For example, you are so focused on, you know,
responding to my moods or my needs or things
378
00:21:10,888 --> 00:21:16,760
that I need in order to be happy that you
yourself are not doing the things that you
379
00:21:16,792 --> 00:21:18,656
need to do to be happy.
380
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,256
Leah: I tried that for a while, but it was a
bottomless pit.
381
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,600
Again, just like you could mask for a while.
382
00:21:23,672 --> 00:21:25,432
I could do that for a while, but it's not a
383
00:21:25,448 --> 00:21:26,240
long term solution.
384
00:21:26,312 --> 00:21:32,524
Moshe: And conversely, I did that a lot in our
relationship, and it was entirely self
385
00:21:32,864 --> 00:21:39,368
invented, where I decided that I needed to
focus on doing certain things for you and
386
00:21:39,456 --> 00:21:46,248
neglecting things that I needed in order to be
happy, and I would end up suffering from self
387
00:21:46,296 --> 00:21:51,444
neglect, which a lot of the time was my own
design.
388
00:21:52,154 --> 00:21:53,770
I need to do these things.
389
00:21:53,842 --> 00:21:55,322
And your response would always be, well, I
390
00:21:55,338 --> 00:21:56,634
never told you not to.
391
00:21:56,754 --> 00:21:57,274
Leah: Exactly.
392
00:21:57,314 --> 00:21:58,818
So, again, the c word.
393
00:21:58,866 --> 00:21:59,986
The communication word.
394
00:22:00,050 --> 00:22:00,842
Moshe: Exactly.
395
00:22:00,898 --> 00:22:04,746
Leah: And when we would dig to the bottom of
those things, I would say, I never asked you
396
00:22:04,770 --> 00:22:05,562
for that.
397
00:22:05,738 --> 00:22:07,802
You're not doing things I asked you for, and
398
00:22:07,818 --> 00:22:09,922
you're doing things I never even wanted.
399
00:22:09,978 --> 00:22:10,854
So why?
400
00:22:11,594 --> 00:22:18,094
Moshe: So it becomes self neglect can be
because of abuse, or it can be because of a
401
00:22:18,134 --> 00:22:22,794
perceived lack of self focus.
402
00:22:23,894 --> 00:22:26,910
Unfortunately, the word selfish ends up being
403
00:22:26,942 --> 00:22:29,158
tossed around quite a lot in relationships.
404
00:22:29,326 --> 00:22:32,558
And if you are able to gaslight someone into
405
00:22:32,606 --> 00:22:37,174
thinking that their needs are selfish, then
they will, in turn, neglect their own needs
406
00:22:37,254 --> 00:22:40,030
and will suffer as a result, which is a form
of.
407
00:22:40,062 --> 00:22:42,710
Leah: Abuse and modern slavery.
408
00:22:42,782 --> 00:22:44,086
That was an interesting one.
409
00:22:44,150 --> 00:22:50,414
I'd never actually heard of it before doing
this research, but, you know, sex trafficking,
410
00:22:51,074 --> 00:22:53,114
keeping somebody locked up.
411
00:22:53,274 --> 00:22:55,522
Or it can be something as nuanced as, you
412
00:22:55,538 --> 00:23:00,458
know, the barefoot and pregnant in the kitchen
trope or the trad wife thing, but by force,
413
00:23:00,506 --> 00:23:02,682
not by choice.
414
00:23:02,858 --> 00:23:09,122
Moshe: Modern slavery sounds really over the
top, but it actually is quite common.
415
00:23:09,178 --> 00:23:10,290
Leah: It's totally a thing.
416
00:23:10,402 --> 00:23:13,742
Moshe: And sex trafficking is definitely one
aspect of it.
417
00:23:13,898 --> 00:23:14,502
Another.
418
00:23:14,638 --> 00:23:15,846
Leah: Or human trafficking.
419
00:23:15,910 --> 00:23:16,702
Moshe: Human trafficking.
420
00:23:16,758 --> 00:23:19,790
But another aspect of it can be absolutely
421
00:23:19,822 --> 00:23:20,558
innocent.
422
00:23:20,726 --> 00:23:24,222
It can be very similar to a situation that I
423
00:23:24,238 --> 00:23:29,358
found myself in, where I was unable to work
because they could not be left alone.
424
00:23:29,526 --> 00:23:33,262
I was unable to leave the room because they
couldn't be left alone.
425
00:23:33,438 --> 00:23:39,566
I was unable to respond to my needs because it
was selfish.
426
00:23:39,630 --> 00:23:46,960
I was unable to do anything for myself because
they insisted that they didn't get to do
427
00:23:46,992 --> 00:23:47,896
anything for themselves.
428
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:49,128
So I had to.
429
00:23:49,296 --> 00:23:57,352
And I was kept trapped in a cycle where I
would be forced to do everything, and they in
430
00:23:57,368 --> 00:23:58,728
turn, had to do nothing.
431
00:23:58,896 --> 00:23:59,920
Leah: Yes, I know.
432
00:24:00,032 --> 00:24:01,624
And the reality is, most people would say to
433
00:24:01,624 --> 00:24:03,776
you, well, why not just walk out of a
situation like that?
434
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:04,560
You have two legs.
435
00:24:04,592 --> 00:24:06,104
But, I mean, I saw.
436
00:24:06,144 --> 00:24:07,216
I was there for part of it.
437
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,932
I saw it, and it's a lot harder than you
438
00:24:09,948 --> 00:24:10,504
think.
439
00:24:11,444 --> 00:24:15,484
Moshe: Why didn't you just leave?
Thing is a whole other episode.
440
00:24:15,564 --> 00:24:17,684
But anyway, let's get to the stories.
441
00:24:17,844 --> 00:24:22,204
Leah: Okay, so I was actually going to segue
into the stories as well.
442
00:24:22,324 --> 00:24:29,164
I'm going to start on my end with the stories
from the neurotypical spouses regarding their
443
00:24:29,244 --> 00:24:30,876
neurodivergent spouses.
444
00:24:31,060 --> 00:24:33,508
They're relatively mild ones, but they're ones
445
00:24:33,556 --> 00:24:36,148
that I think we can discuss in terms of our
own experience.
446
00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:40,064
So I'll read the story to you, and then we'll
talk about it for a little while.
447
00:24:41,044 --> 00:24:44,516
So let's call this person subject number one.
448
00:24:44,620 --> 00:24:45,380
Moshe: Subject what?
449
00:24:45,452 --> 00:24:48,464
Leah: Subject number one writes four year
podcast.
450
00:24:48,884 --> 00:24:54,116
My ex was never officially diagnosed, but our
marriage counselor suggested he was likely
451
00:24:54,180 --> 00:24:56,916
autistic or had something like Asperger's.
452
00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:59,076
I would ask him to do something around the
453
00:24:59,100 --> 00:25:03,504
house, and he would lose his mind, saying I
didn't appreciate him.
454
00:25:03,684 --> 00:25:08,632
I asked him once to clean a windowsill because
I was occupied and it had mold that had been
455
00:25:08,648 --> 00:25:10,000
there for three weeks.
456
00:25:10,192 --> 00:25:12,880
I wanted to see if he noticed it when I
457
00:25:12,912 --> 00:25:13,496
mentioned that.
458
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,592
I guess I need to point things out if I see
459
00:25:15,608 --> 00:25:17,408
that they need to be taken care of.
460
00:25:17,576 --> 00:25:19,984
He left the house for the night and sent me
461
00:25:20,024 --> 00:25:24,324
texts telling me that I was accusing him of
being unobservant and not caring.
462
00:25:24,664 --> 00:25:27,844
He threatened to never come home unless I
apologized.
463
00:25:28,464 --> 00:25:31,056
I had to grovel accept all responsibility.
464
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,934
And he still came home and berated me in front
465
00:25:33,974 --> 00:25:34,914
of the kids.
466
00:25:35,294 --> 00:25:36,798
That was the day that broke us.
467
00:25:36,846 --> 00:25:39,194
I left him less than two years later.
468
00:25:39,774 --> 00:25:41,234
Let's discuss that.
469
00:25:41,614 --> 00:25:45,710
Moshe: So there's a few things there that are
going on from the outset.
470
00:25:45,902 --> 00:25:50,014
The first thing I'll say right away is they
clearly don't have very good communication.
471
00:25:50,134 --> 00:25:56,166
Leah: Obviously, if I were to make fun of you
about not being able to see something that
472
00:25:56,190 --> 00:25:59,252
would actually be very hurtful on my end.
473
00:25:59,318 --> 00:26:01,984
So I see where he got hurt, but his reaction
474
00:26:02,024 --> 00:26:03,104
was likely over the top.
475
00:26:03,144 --> 00:26:04,728
Moshe: His reaction was very much over the
top.
476
00:26:04,776 --> 00:26:08,184
But of course, my first question is, was this
the first time that this happened?
477
00:26:08,264 --> 00:26:08,672
Leah: No.
478
00:26:08,768 --> 00:26:11,404
Moshe: Is this something that she does
regularly?
479
00:26:12,104 --> 00:26:12,712
Leah: Maybe.
480
00:26:12,808 --> 00:26:14,848
But the thing about it is, if I made fun of
481
00:26:14,856 --> 00:26:19,496
you, like, I guess you didn't see that, you
could rightly come back to me and say, well,
482
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:20,560
I'm ADHD.
483
00:26:20,632 --> 00:26:22,088
Of course I didn't see that.
484
00:26:22,216 --> 00:26:22,816
Moshe: Right.
485
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,370
His reaction was absolutely over the top, too
486
00:26:25,402 --> 00:26:25,618
much.
487
00:26:25,666 --> 00:26:27,602
Leah: But it was valid.
488
00:26:27,738 --> 00:26:31,954
Moshe: I very much subscribe to the policy
that you should never fight in front of your
489
00:26:31,994 --> 00:26:33,814
children now.
490
00:26:34,194 --> 00:26:35,294
And that is.
491
00:26:35,634 --> 00:26:37,706
That's very unfortunate.
492
00:26:37,890 --> 00:26:43,602
Leah: Now, the apology thing, let's discuss
that, though, because that's a thing that was
493
00:26:43,698 --> 00:26:48,674
an issue between us as well, where you would
demand apologies even for perceived slides,
494
00:26:48,714 --> 00:26:53,974
when I did nothing wrong, and I'm not the type
who apologizes if I don't mean it.
495
00:26:54,134 --> 00:26:59,150
So that would stop any healthy communication
directly in its tracks.
496
00:26:59,302 --> 00:27:04,742
And it sounds like they had a similar
situation where even though they both seem to
497
00:27:04,758 --> 00:27:11,310
be at fault here, which I think the original
storyteller admitted, she had to take all the
498
00:27:11,342 --> 00:27:16,518
responsibility, eat all the crow, get yelled
at in front of her children, and then they
499
00:27:16,526 --> 00:27:17,870
were able to move on.
500
00:27:18,062 --> 00:27:24,450
Moshe: So an apology doesn't actually mean
anything if you don't mean it.
501
00:27:24,602 --> 00:27:31,666
And I think that in that circumstance, putting
aside the fact that it was very likely not the
502
00:27:31,690 --> 00:27:32,226
first time, at.
503
00:27:32,250 --> 00:27:35,506
Leah: Some point that happened, rather than in
either direction, though.
504
00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:36,362
Moshe: No, of course.
505
00:27:36,498 --> 00:27:39,898
But rather than demanding an apology, I would
506
00:27:39,986 --> 00:27:49,872
probably have, maybe, at least now I would try
to explain why what she said was hurtful and
507
00:27:49,928 --> 00:27:56,752
let her sort of understand the effect that her
words had on me, and then if she felt that it
508
00:27:56,768 --> 00:28:00,976
was worthy of an apology, then by all means,
right.
509
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:08,564
Leah: So I really should specify that the
impetus for these stories was me asking people
510
00:28:08,904 --> 00:28:11,056
who felt that they had been the victim of
abuse.
511
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:15,850
So she clearly felt very abused by this
interaction, of course, abuse enough that I'm
512
00:28:15,882 --> 00:28:19,370
going to go ahead and say their communication
didn't improve, and they actually divorced.
513
00:28:19,482 --> 00:28:20,134
Moshe: Right.
514
00:28:20,594 --> 00:28:22,770
Leah: So what are your final thoughts on that?
515
00:28:22,962 --> 00:28:30,174
Moshe: So a relationship, much like this
podcast, is thread through with communication.
516
00:28:30,554 --> 00:28:35,362
And communication breakdown in any
relationship, whether or not it involves
517
00:28:35,458 --> 00:28:40,250
someone who's autistic or neurodivergent, is
the death knell of any relationship.
518
00:28:40,402 --> 00:28:41,130
Because if you.
519
00:28:41,162 --> 00:28:43,170
If you can't talk to each other or you can't
520
00:28:43,202 --> 00:28:48,002
communicate with each other, then, like,
really, there's nowhere to go.
521
00:28:48,138 --> 00:28:50,454
Leah: Yeah. What are you doing?
Really?
522
00:28:51,554 --> 00:28:54,194
So, yeah, my final thoughts on that are
absolutely.
523
00:28:54,234 --> 00:28:58,706
She had a part to play, but his reaction was
over the top and very abusive because if he
524
00:28:58,730 --> 00:29:01,770
cared about his children, he wouldn't have
done that.
525
00:29:01,922 --> 00:29:03,334
Moshe: No, absolutely.
526
00:29:03,914 --> 00:29:08,148
Leah: So next, some people actually just gave
me topics that they thought I should cover,
527
00:29:08,306 --> 00:29:09,664
and I like this one.
528
00:29:09,824 --> 00:29:12,344
One thing I think you can bring up is how
529
00:29:12,384 --> 00:29:16,284
abusive behaviors are sometimes just shrugged
off as autism.
530
00:29:16,664 --> 00:29:22,208
Now, I think that we both have opinions on
this one is that the abusive behaviors could
531
00:29:22,256 --> 00:29:23,480
absolutely be autism.
532
00:29:23,552 --> 00:29:26,456
We discussed that misunderstanding or some
533
00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:31,168
sort of sensitivity or just not understanding
that the other person has feelings, too, et
534
00:29:31,176 --> 00:29:32,248
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
535
00:29:32,336 --> 00:29:32,752
Moshe: Right.
536
00:29:32,848 --> 00:29:37,052
Leah: Some things, though, especially some of
the things we received, because I shared a lot
537
00:29:37,068 --> 00:29:42,064
of them with you, and we discussed whether to
share them or not, are something else.
538
00:29:42,564 --> 00:29:42,972
Moshe: Right.
539
00:29:43,028 --> 00:29:48,572
Leah: Because every autistic also does have a
personality, and some of the things that some
540
00:29:48,588 --> 00:29:56,412
of these people did are not, can't really be
explained away by just a misunderstanding.
541
00:29:56,588 --> 00:29:57,304
Moshe: Right.
542
00:29:57,964 --> 00:30:02,914
Leah: So, yes, again, one of her favorite
games to play with you is autism or just a man
543
00:30:03,074 --> 00:30:05,546
with Avram autism or just a ten year old.
544
00:30:05,650 --> 00:30:08,042
And which is which and what's personality and
545
00:30:08,058 --> 00:30:11,494
what's, you know, genuine disability.
546
00:30:11,834 --> 00:30:12,574
Moshe: Right.
547
00:30:13,114 --> 00:30:14,674
Leah: Both of which can be worked on.
548
00:30:14,754 --> 00:30:15,410
Moshe: Absolutely.
549
00:30:15,482 --> 00:30:21,170
Leah: But. But I do think that for me at
least, the temptation was at the beginning to
550
00:30:21,202 --> 00:30:25,786
literally shrug everything off as autism,
especially because I was told, like, you
551
00:30:25,810 --> 00:30:29,932
can't, you can't correct somebody who's
autistic, that's ableist.
552
00:30:29,988 --> 00:30:34,660
You have to just accept everything they do
because, you know, their struggle is so much
553
00:30:34,812 --> 00:30:37,944
more than yours and you can never understand
it or whatever.
554
00:30:38,244 --> 00:30:48,260
Moshe: Right. And, I mean, I really don't feel
like raising an issue with proper treatment by
555
00:30:48,292 --> 00:30:51,624
another person should be labeled as ableist.
556
00:30:52,024 --> 00:30:55,904
Ableist is one of those discrimination terms
557
00:30:55,984 --> 00:31:01,080
that much like anything else, gets thrown
around sometimes where it absolutely
558
00:31:01,112 --> 00:31:01,520
shouldn't.
559
00:31:01,592 --> 00:31:03,144
And I say that as an autistic.
560
00:31:03,184 --> 00:31:04,400
Leah: It is a type of abuse.
561
00:31:04,472 --> 00:31:06,792
So somebody being ableist, like not hiring you
562
00:31:06,808 --> 00:31:12,128
because they're autistic, is abused you, but
it can be used the other way as a whip.
563
00:31:12,296 --> 00:31:13,064
You're ableist.
564
00:31:13,104 --> 00:31:15,040
You can't say that about me, but you're
565
00:31:15,072 --> 00:31:15,520
hurting me.
566
00:31:15,552 --> 00:31:17,248
No, no, you can't say that about me.
567
00:31:17,256 --> 00:31:18,444
You have to accept it.
568
00:31:19,214 --> 00:31:25,686
Moshe: What I often like to say is autism is
an obstacle, but it's not a barrier.
569
00:31:25,830 --> 00:31:35,430
If you are able to understand the consequences
of your actions, and again, speaking as one
570
00:31:35,462 --> 00:31:40,678
autistic and not as all autistics, because
everyone has a different ability to function,
571
00:31:40,846 --> 00:31:45,990
but if you are one of those neurodivergents or
autistics that has the ability to understand
572
00:31:46,062 --> 00:31:51,932
the consequences of their actions, then you
have the ability to understand that when you
573
00:31:51,988 --> 00:31:59,796
act in a way, whether or not it because of
your autism or because of something else, then
574
00:31:59,940 --> 00:32:02,384
if it hurts someone else, then it's wrong.
575
00:32:02,684 --> 00:32:06,932
And at a very basic level, even a small child
576
00:32:07,028 --> 00:32:09,396
can be taught that everything's between right
and wrong.
577
00:32:09,460 --> 00:32:14,722
And not to say that autistics can be compared
to small children, but if you could, look,
578
00:32:14,778 --> 00:32:19,738
okay, how about this?
If you have the ability to be in a
579
00:32:19,786 --> 00:32:26,746
relationship with another person that has
advanced to such a level that it's now a long
580
00:32:26,810 --> 00:32:31,874
term relationship, and even further to the
point where it's marriage or marriage like
581
00:32:31,914 --> 00:32:37,082
relationship, then surely you can understand
right from wrong.
582
00:32:37,258 --> 00:32:46,584
And that when you yell at somebody because of
some perceived slight, or you overreact to
583
00:32:46,624 --> 00:32:52,432
something that was mildly offensive and
treated as though you are being personally
584
00:32:52,488 --> 00:33:01,764
attacked and in turn respond in an over the
top way, then you can be taught to understand
585
00:33:02,944 --> 00:33:10,140
when something that you're doing is not right,
as you in fact, actually helped me to
586
00:33:10,172 --> 00:33:10,744
understand.
587
00:33:11,244 --> 00:33:12,972
You have to be above reproach.
588
00:33:13,028 --> 00:33:20,220
You have to be able to look at the person and
say, I am doing nothing to deserve the
589
00:33:20,252 --> 00:33:21,908
treatment that you are giving me.
590
00:33:22,076 --> 00:33:24,548
And if you can say that, which, to be fair,
591
00:33:24,596 --> 00:33:30,784
you always can, then you have to be able to
get on a chair.
592
00:33:31,084 --> 00:33:36,024
You have to be able to try to lift that person
up to your level, and that means not getting
593
00:33:36,064 --> 00:33:36,984
down in the dirt with them.
594
00:33:37,024 --> 00:33:41,320
So when I would end up in situations where I
595
00:33:41,352 --> 00:33:49,324
would be unable to emotionally regulate or I
would have meltdowns over perceived offenses,
596
00:33:49,624 --> 00:33:56,376
and we would end up in a situation where you
would try to call me back to the ability to
597
00:33:56,440 --> 00:34:03,680
understand by talking about what you used to
call adult conversations, like, okay, you can
598
00:34:03,712 --> 00:34:07,936
have your meltdown, you can have your
reaction, but when you're done, we're going to
599
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:15,864
talk about this like adults, and you're going
to understand my point of view and what I
600
00:34:15,904 --> 00:34:22,592
found in those circumstances was either I
didn't understand something and I perceived it
601
00:34:22,608 --> 00:34:28,978
as an insult, or I did understand it, but I
took it for far worse than it was.
602
00:34:29,096 --> 00:34:31,350
Leah: But you've also come very far.
603
00:34:31,462 --> 00:34:34,054
Yes, there was a point in time where literally
604
00:34:34,174 --> 00:34:40,118
anything that wasn't you being perfect, angel,
golden boy, was an insult, and you've come a
605
00:34:40,166 --> 00:34:41,510
long way since then.
606
00:34:41,582 --> 00:34:43,926
Moshe: But that's a really funny thing, isn't
it?
607
00:34:44,110 --> 00:34:48,446
And this again, goes back to the previous
topic that we talked about, about how an
608
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:49,934
autistic has a need to be.
609
00:34:49,974 --> 00:34:50,554
Right?
610
00:34:51,014 --> 00:34:58,803
So if you can consider outside of the
spectrum, no pun intended, of the reasons for
611
00:34:59,503 --> 00:35:01,203
causing a disagreement.
612
00:35:01,543 --> 00:35:04,243
I identify that I suffer from a disability.
613
00:35:04,543 --> 00:35:07,003
You identify that I suffer from a disability.
614
00:35:07,423 --> 00:35:09,351
You pointing out that I suffer from a
615
00:35:09,367 --> 00:35:12,603
disability makes me feel attacked.
616
00:35:13,223 --> 00:35:14,015
Leah: Why?
617
00:35:14,199 --> 00:35:22,166
Moshe: Because you pointed out something that
I identify as a thing, and that you identified
618
00:35:22,350 --> 00:35:23,754
as also a thing.
619
00:35:24,054 --> 00:35:27,814
And somehow you identifying an aspect of
620
00:35:27,854 --> 00:35:33,314
something that I identify as a thing causes me
to feel attacked.
621
00:35:33,854 --> 00:35:35,198
Does that even make any sense?
622
00:35:35,246 --> 00:35:37,982
Leah: That actually led to a conversation that
I remember now.
623
00:35:38,118 --> 00:35:42,902
A lot of things are fading because we've had
so much, like, conflict into trying to work on
624
00:35:42,918 --> 00:35:43,854
our relationship.
625
00:35:44,014 --> 00:35:46,406
But it actually led to a conversation where I
626
00:35:46,430 --> 00:35:48,994
actually once asked you, Moshe, why do you
hate yourself so much?
627
00:35:49,634 --> 00:35:50,738
You know, you're autistic.
628
00:35:50,786 --> 00:35:53,130
You're gonna have to accept that one day.
629
00:35:53,282 --> 00:35:56,334
Moshe: Right?
And that is the.
630
00:35:57,154 --> 00:35:57,882
I don't know.
631
00:35:57,978 --> 00:35:59,850
Everyone likes to quote that line from
632
00:35:59,882 --> 00:36:02,306
Seinfeld, where it's not a lie if you believe
it.
633
00:36:02,370 --> 00:36:02,974
Leah: Right.
634
00:36:04,074 --> 00:36:08,866
Moshe: And the way I like to say it is, an
autistic can sometimes masks so well that they
635
00:36:08,890 --> 00:36:10,054
even fool themselves.
636
00:36:10,354 --> 00:36:11,978
Leah: Yes, but they can't fool me.
637
00:36:12,066 --> 00:36:16,688
Moshe: Right?
You're very good at seeing through that.
638
00:36:16,866 --> 00:36:24,660
But yes, if you wear a mask for so long that
it even convinces you that that's the way you
639
00:36:24,692 --> 00:36:29,436
are, then maybe it's time to start
understanding that underneath the mask is
640
00:36:29,460 --> 00:36:34,036
someone who really just needs to accept that
that's who they are.
641
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:35,724
Leah: But that was absolutely meant with love.
642
00:36:35,764 --> 00:36:36,172
It was.
643
00:36:36,228 --> 00:36:38,996
You know, Moshe, why do you hate yourself so
much?
644
00:36:39,180 --> 00:36:41,512
Why don't you accept yourself?
I do.
645
00:36:41,708 --> 00:36:44,936
And if I can, then you can.
646
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:45,608
Moshe: Right?
647
00:36:45,696 --> 00:36:52,056
Leah: And that's ultimately another solution
to these kind of problems, because a lot of
648
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,448
these people are very functional.
649
00:36:53,496 --> 00:36:58,680
They're successful beyond reason in one aspect
650
00:36:58,712 --> 00:36:59,696
of their life.
651
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,096
So they're then like, well, I'm an adult, and
652
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:08,704
I make six figures a year, so how dare you
correct me on anything, whatever it is.
653
00:37:09,124 --> 00:37:11,396
That's a tough situation in both cases.
654
00:37:11,540 --> 00:37:14,052
Actually, it is, because I could easily say,
655
00:37:14,068 --> 00:37:15,252
well, I'm the neurotypical.
656
00:37:15,308 --> 00:37:16,924
How dare you correct me on anything?
657
00:37:16,964 --> 00:37:18,284
And you do all the time.
658
00:37:18,444 --> 00:37:20,024
A lot of the times, you're right.
659
00:37:20,324 --> 00:37:21,064
Moshe: Right.
660
00:37:21,604 --> 00:37:25,224
Learning to accept that you're a flawed person
661
00:37:26,124 --> 00:37:30,824
is a normal, a normal stage of development.
662
00:37:31,204 --> 00:37:34,282
Because when you're a child or a teenager,
663
00:37:34,388 --> 00:37:38,662
you're perfect, and nothing you ever do is
wrong, and you're capable of everything.
664
00:37:38,838 --> 00:37:45,774
But as you grow older, normally, you get to a
stage of your development where you can accept
665
00:37:45,934 --> 00:37:51,406
that you are very talented in some ways and
not very talented in others.
666
00:37:51,590 --> 00:37:59,154
And unless you happen to be, you know, God,
you are capable of making mistakes.
667
00:37:59,954 --> 00:38:10,442
And for whatever reason, a lot of people who
have autism are so detective of appearing
668
00:38:10,498 --> 00:38:16,426
vulnerable that it ends up coming across as
being insulted by the truth.
669
00:38:16,530 --> 00:38:17,946
Leah: We're also very aggressive.
670
00:38:18,010 --> 00:38:19,410
It does come across as aggressive.
671
00:38:19,442 --> 00:38:24,130
So a couple of things I wanted to cover on
this topic, and then we should move on.
672
00:38:24,242 --> 00:38:24,610
Moshe: Right.
673
00:38:24,682 --> 00:38:28,214
Leah: The first one was, though, it absolutely
wasn't abuse.
674
00:38:28,254 --> 00:38:34,214
When Moshe would have meltdowns or react in
the way he did, if the outside observer had
675
00:38:34,254 --> 00:38:39,374
watched us or seen us, it did happen a couple
of times, they would be very concerned for my
676
00:38:39,414 --> 00:38:40,014
safety.
677
00:38:40,134 --> 00:38:41,902
He would never hurt me.
678
00:38:41,998 --> 00:38:45,234
Even in the midst of a meltdown, he had that
kind of control.
679
00:38:45,614 --> 00:38:49,710
But from the outside, it was extremely scary
to look at.
680
00:38:49,862 --> 00:38:51,270
So that's one thing.
681
00:38:51,302 --> 00:38:53,206
So the outside observer may see things that
682
00:38:53,230 --> 00:38:56,524
aren't abuse as abuse and be very concerned.
683
00:38:57,304 --> 00:39:00,552
The second thing is, I just wanted to just put
684
00:39:00,568 --> 00:39:01,784
a little bow on this word.
685
00:39:01,904 --> 00:39:05,320
Some things even the autistic person knows are
686
00:39:05,352 --> 00:39:08,840
wrong, and they do them anyway because that's
a human characteristic.
687
00:39:08,912 --> 00:39:10,256
Everybody does that.
688
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,520
And if you're doing that and it's causing
689
00:39:12,592 --> 00:39:17,000
somebody that you love harm or to be hurt, you
really need to rethink that, whether you're
690
00:39:17,032 --> 00:39:18,816
neurotypical or neurotypical.
691
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:19,964
Moshe: Exactly.
692
00:39:20,404 --> 00:39:20,932
Leah: Right.
693
00:39:21,028 --> 00:39:23,664
Next subject number three.
694
00:39:24,044 --> 00:39:26,916
I've recently finished reading Asperger's in
love.
695
00:39:27,100 --> 00:39:32,460
I know that's not the acceptable term anymore
and was fairly shocked on the chapters about
696
00:39:32,492 --> 00:39:37,940
abuse because I've seen so many times in this
group people saying autistic folks aren't
697
00:39:38,012 --> 00:39:39,500
inherently abusive.
698
00:39:39,692 --> 00:39:42,236
And I've really, really been trying hard to
699
00:39:42,260 --> 00:39:45,224
give my husband the benefit of the doubt for
too many years.
700
00:39:45,704 --> 00:39:51,360
About 70% of as men answered yes to the
question, had they ever been verbally abusive
701
00:39:51,392 --> 00:39:56,184
to their partners?
40% of as men in my research said that at some
702
00:39:56,224 --> 00:40:00,392
time in their relationship, they had been
physically abusive toward their partner.
703
00:40:00,568 --> 00:40:05,120
Now, this isn't glowing, but this was one of
the sort of scientific studies that I had been
704
00:40:05,152 --> 00:40:06,064
referring to.
705
00:40:06,224 --> 00:40:07,824
Do you have any thoughts on that?
706
00:40:07,984 --> 00:40:14,072
Moshe: Well, the first thing that I think
about is that remarkable self reflection on
707
00:40:14,088 --> 00:40:18,604
the part of the, as I presume, refers to
autism spectrum.
708
00:40:20,304 --> 00:40:27,176
So it sounds like you have people who have
autism self admitting that they abuse their
709
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:27,924
partners.
710
00:40:28,264 --> 00:40:32,056
I mean, not like, as a rule, but as a very
711
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:34,432
high percentage, which.
712
00:40:34,608 --> 00:40:37,912
Leah: Even before we were together, you had
that level of insight.
713
00:40:38,088 --> 00:40:43,010
When I would talk to you about, let's call her
first wife, you admitted that you did some
714
00:40:43,042 --> 00:40:43,614
things.
715
00:40:43,914 --> 00:40:49,934
Moshe: Yeah. And that gets to the thing that I
mentioned about appearing above approach,
716
00:40:50,354 --> 00:40:58,934
because if you are sitting there and taking
abuse, and you always respond rationally,
717
00:40:59,634 --> 00:41:04,114
reflectively, then you are above reproach, and
you can say, you know what?
718
00:41:04,154 --> 00:41:06,716
I'm sorry, but you are not treating me fairly.
719
00:41:06,850 --> 00:41:11,200
But if you, like, hit back or you get involved
720
00:41:11,392 --> 00:41:16,736
in a back and forth, then it basically allows
them to turn around and say, see, you're also
721
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:17,872
the one who's guilty.
722
00:41:17,928 --> 00:41:19,536
So I'm not doing anything wrong.
723
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,124
We're both doing it wrong.
724
00:41:22,144 --> 00:41:25,256
And unfortunately, when you don't have the
725
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:32,576
self control that a lot of neurodivergents
don't, it makes it very easy to get dragged
726
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:33,894
down into the dirt.
727
00:41:34,064 --> 00:41:38,210
And if you are also very suggestible, as I
728
00:41:38,242 --> 00:41:44,954
unfortunately was, then they can, you know,
hit you ten times.
729
00:41:45,034 --> 00:41:49,338
But if you hit them once back, then go see,
it's both of our faults.
730
00:41:49,506 --> 00:41:51,418
Not one of us is responsible.
731
00:41:51,586 --> 00:41:53,774
Not to say that that happened, but just.
732
00:41:54,674 --> 00:41:57,186
It allows the water to be cloudy.
733
00:41:57,330 --> 00:42:02,102
Leah: But it's actually unfortunate that it's
also true because it doesn't matter if they've
734
00:42:02,118 --> 00:42:02,750
hit you ten times.
735
00:42:02,782 --> 00:42:05,054
If you hit them once, you're just as guilty.
736
00:42:05,174 --> 00:42:08,654
That's maybe just my own moral judgment or my
own theories.
737
00:42:08,814 --> 00:42:10,274
Moshe: And I agree with you.
738
00:42:10,694 --> 00:42:11,854
I do agree with you.
739
00:42:11,934 --> 00:42:16,790
Leah: This one subject, number four, is more
actually on my end.
740
00:42:16,942 --> 00:42:19,006
It's more of a thing that I struggle with.
741
00:42:19,190 --> 00:42:21,894
I identified with this person, and I messaged
742
00:42:21,934 --> 00:42:23,274
them and I told them so.
743
00:42:23,694 --> 00:42:25,662
I was in an abusive relationship before
744
00:42:25,718 --> 00:42:27,754
meeting my husband, who has ASD.
745
00:42:28,134 --> 00:42:30,966
I have PTSD as a result of my former
746
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:32,110
relationship.
747
00:42:32,302 --> 00:42:34,670
However, ASD behaviors within my current
748
00:42:34,742 --> 00:42:37,714
relationship trigger PTSD episodes often.
749
00:42:38,094 --> 00:42:40,686
This is because some ASD behaviors, and she's
750
00:42:40,710 --> 00:42:44,434
admitting here that their ASD behaviors are
not necessarily purposeful.
751
00:42:44,854 --> 00:42:50,526
That is, a lack of empathy or meltdowns mimic
narcissistic behaviors, but without the
752
00:42:50,550 --> 00:42:52,874
manipulation, malice, or ill intent.
753
00:42:53,394 --> 00:42:56,034
Unfortunately, PTSD does not know the
754
00:42:56,074 --> 00:43:01,694
difference between the two and the emotional
cost to those affected with PTSD is the same.
755
00:43:02,074 --> 00:43:05,014
Feel free to direct message me if you'd like
any further information.
756
00:43:05,874 --> 00:43:07,974
This one is more on my end.
757
00:43:08,994 --> 00:43:12,026
As much as Moshe struggles developmentally, I
758
00:43:12,050 --> 00:43:16,026
actually struggle emotionally and
psychologically, which is a thing that we
759
00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:22,996
don't talk about enough in the podcast, and we
should, because a lot of people have pointed
760
00:43:23,020 --> 00:43:27,292
out that I hold Moshe to task on a lot of
things, and he holds himself the task, but we
761
00:43:27,308 --> 00:43:29,700
haven't had the opportunity for him to do the
opposite.
762
00:43:29,772 --> 00:43:33,316
And I would be just as open and honest if that
were the case.
763
00:43:33,500 --> 00:43:36,344
So the problem here is sometimes.
764
00:43:36,884 --> 00:43:41,612
So I've suffered from PTSD very badly in the
765
00:43:41,628 --> 00:43:41,972
past.
766
00:43:42,068 --> 00:43:45,304
I currently still have an anxiety disorder.
767
00:43:45,634 --> 00:43:51,706
And the problem with that is sometimes Moshe
just being himself or acting in a way that
768
00:43:51,890 --> 00:43:57,530
doesn't necessarily mean any harm or isn't
even harmful will trigger me.
769
00:43:57,602 --> 00:44:02,010
Because of my past, I've had several really
abusive relationships beginning from
770
00:44:02,042 --> 00:44:02,434
childhood.
771
00:44:02,474 --> 00:44:06,466
So parental abuse, friends who abused me, and
772
00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:10,274
my last relationship was interesting.
773
00:44:10,434 --> 00:44:11,922
That's a whole episode on its own.
774
00:44:11,938 --> 00:44:17,478
And again, I really have to ask them before I
disclose all of that stuff.
775
00:44:17,646 --> 00:44:20,714
But suffice it to say that it was traumatic.
776
00:44:21,574 --> 00:44:25,366
And a lot of times, just him behaving in a way
777
00:44:25,550 --> 00:44:31,366
that's natural to him will trigger me, and
I'll get upset, and that will sort of upset
778
00:44:31,390 --> 00:44:32,914
the entire apple card.
779
00:44:33,494 --> 00:44:38,882
Moshe: Yeah, it makes things a lot more
difficult because you have.
780
00:44:39,078 --> 00:44:40,162
You have a series of things.
781
00:44:40,218 --> 00:44:43,258
You have behavior that is caused by autism,
782
00:44:43,306 --> 00:44:44,426
but is still harmful.
783
00:44:44,570 --> 00:44:47,490
You have behaviors that is caused by autism
784
00:44:47,682 --> 00:44:51,826
and is not harmful and identified as such.
785
00:44:51,890 --> 00:44:53,594
And then you have behaviors that is caused by
786
00:44:53,634 --> 00:45:00,378
autism, is not necessarily harmful, but is
triggering because of resembling other
787
00:45:00,426 --> 00:45:02,494
behaviors that were harmful.
788
00:45:02,834 --> 00:45:05,570
So it kind of creates nuance in.
789
00:45:05,602 --> 00:45:09,298
In a situation for a person that doesn't
understand nuance all that well.
790
00:45:09,386 --> 00:45:11,546
Leah: Right?
And there were a couple of times where Moshe
791
00:45:11,570 --> 00:45:16,578
was like, I'm really starting to feel abused
by you because of your emotional neglect.
792
00:45:16,626 --> 00:45:22,122
You do this thing where you just go cold, and
I don't understand what I've done or, you
793
00:45:22,138 --> 00:45:24,122
know, and I had to really work on that.
794
00:45:24,178 --> 00:45:26,898
We talk about communication both ways, right?
795
00:45:26,986 --> 00:45:32,100
When you have anxiety, the first line of
defense is to shut down and go, go into
796
00:45:32,132 --> 00:45:36,144
yourself or become me, attack the other
person.
797
00:45:36,684 --> 00:45:41,660
Moshe: So there definitely needs to be clear
lines of delineation when it comes to that
798
00:45:41,692 --> 00:45:42,624
sort of thing.
799
00:45:42,964 --> 00:45:46,780
And communication, once again pops up.
800
00:45:46,892 --> 00:45:54,860
And it's one of those situations where Leah
and I have been able to discuss behaviors or
801
00:45:54,892 --> 00:46:02,698
things where she'll identify that something
that I did or said or acted in a way triggered
802
00:46:02,746 --> 00:46:10,506
her, but it was not necessarily to do with
anything that I did maliciously, but it was a
803
00:46:10,530 --> 00:46:15,090
behavior that made her feel certain ways.
804
00:46:15,282 --> 00:46:21,986
And my understanding of that was hopeful in
805
00:46:22,050 --> 00:46:28,224
understanding that it wasn't actually anything
that I did wrong, but it was a problem with
806
00:46:28,264 --> 00:46:36,520
her, and that I can help with her by
understanding her point of view.
807
00:46:36,632 --> 00:46:41,072
Leah: But in order for me to just open up and
trust enough to even say, okay, so this is
808
00:46:41,088 --> 00:46:44,096
what I'm healing, and this is what you need to
do to help me with.
809
00:46:44,120 --> 00:46:50,312
It was at least a three year process on your
part, and it was stalled because a lot of
810
00:46:50,328 --> 00:46:54,116
times when I would get mad at you, you would
react the way we discussed earlier, with a
811
00:46:54,240 --> 00:46:58,132
meltdowns and the gaslighting and the, you
know, I didn't and you didn't, and blah, blah,
812
00:46:58,148 --> 00:46:58,828
blah stuff.
813
00:46:58,916 --> 00:46:59,452
Moshe: Right.
814
00:46:59,588 --> 00:47:02,924
Leah: So we had to sort of rein that in before
we could work on that.
815
00:47:02,964 --> 00:47:08,836
But you do this brilliant thing now, actually,
where you'll identify that something's not
816
00:47:08,860 --> 00:47:12,452
quite right with me, and you'll say, what?
And then they'll tell you what and say, honey,
817
00:47:12,588 --> 00:47:13,944
please don't do this.
818
00:47:14,244 --> 00:47:15,948
Please, we have so much to do.
819
00:47:15,996 --> 00:47:16,828
The kids are here.
820
00:47:16,876 --> 00:47:18,068
Like, it meant nothing.
821
00:47:18,116 --> 00:47:19,068
It didn't mean anything.
822
00:47:19,116 --> 00:47:20,652
It didn't mean what you thought it meant.
823
00:47:20,708 --> 00:47:22,008
This is what I was doing.
824
00:47:22,156 --> 00:47:23,000
Please don't do this.
825
00:47:23,032 --> 00:47:24,760
Can we be okay?
Can we calm down?
826
00:47:24,872 --> 00:47:28,604
And then you'll hug me and kiss me, and
eventually I'll calm down.
827
00:47:29,624 --> 00:47:30,048
Yeah.
828
00:47:30,096 --> 00:47:33,120
So that's one interesting thing that we've
829
00:47:33,152 --> 00:47:38,216
gleaned from many, many years of trying to
deal with that in the other direction.
830
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:44,400
I guess maybe it's just, again, understanding
on my end, I'll tell him, listen, I'm feeling
831
00:47:44,432 --> 00:47:46,352
really triggered because this happened in the
past.
832
00:47:46,408 --> 00:47:48,048
I know that that's not what you're doing.
833
00:47:48,096 --> 00:47:52,336
I know logically, in my head that that's not
834
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,920
what you're doing, but my heart or my reaction
isn't able to identify that.
835
00:47:57,952 --> 00:47:58,528
Right.
836
00:47:58,696 --> 00:48:00,016
So I need a minute.
837
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:05,764
Moshe: And we're definitely getting better at
working through that, but it definitely adds
838
00:48:06,144 --> 00:48:12,728
another layer of complexity to our
relationship and, of course, the relationship
839
00:48:12,776 --> 00:48:15,260
that this person expressed.
840
00:48:15,432 --> 00:48:17,484
And once again, it really just kind of comes
841
00:48:17,524 --> 00:48:24,724
down to communication, being able to express
in a. We'll call it adult way, what's going on
842
00:48:24,804 --> 00:48:26,664
and provide.
843
00:48:28,124 --> 00:48:29,156
Someone mentioned.
844
00:48:29,220 --> 00:48:33,304
Someone wrote to me, actually, something about
reaction.
845
00:48:33,644 --> 00:48:36,580
What was it?
Like, reaction guidelines or something like
846
00:48:36,612 --> 00:48:37,904
that, which we can discuss.
847
00:48:38,404 --> 00:48:41,204
Leah: I think we did discuss it in one of the
previous episodes.
848
00:48:41,244 --> 00:48:41,636
Moshe: We did.
849
00:48:41,700 --> 00:48:46,176
Leah: Yeah. We were talking about, you start a
conversation by saying, I don't want any
850
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:47,496
reaction from you right now.
851
00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,360
I just want you to listen, or you didn't do
852
00:48:50,392 --> 00:48:52,344
anything wrong, but we're going to talk about
this.
853
00:48:52,424 --> 00:48:53,112
We did talk.
854
00:48:53,208 --> 00:48:54,368
Moshe: Right. Okay, so.
855
00:48:54,416 --> 00:48:54,840
So that.
856
00:48:54,872 --> 00:48:57,444
That is something that factors into this.
857
00:48:57,824 --> 00:48:58,160
Right.
858
00:48:58,192 --> 00:49:03,056
We did discuss in the last episode, and it
was, you know, the thing that you did was
859
00:49:03,080 --> 00:49:08,536
triggering for me not because of anything you
did, but right now, I just need you to
860
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:15,404
understand that I'm feeling whatever way I'm
feeling, and I need you to help me through it
861
00:49:15,864 --> 00:49:20,200
with the understanding that you didn't do
anything wrong.
862
00:49:20,392 --> 00:49:24,920
Leah: And that required for me to share a lot
of very difficult things from my past, which
863
00:49:24,952 --> 00:49:26,920
was really hard for you to hear sometimes.
864
00:49:26,952 --> 00:49:29,176
And we had to work through that, too, because
865
00:49:29,240 --> 00:49:33,336
you sort of had this guilt of, I should have
been there for you, and this wouldn't have
866
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:35,962
happened if I was there to protect you and all
that stuff.
867
00:49:36,128 --> 00:49:37,950
That's more of a personality thing.
868
00:49:37,982 --> 00:49:39,622
That's more of a you being just a really great
869
00:49:39,678 --> 00:49:40,754
man thing.
870
00:49:41,934 --> 00:49:43,686
But we had to get through that as well,
871
00:49:43,710 --> 00:49:47,486
because I had to be able to tell you the
stories to explain to you why I felt the way
872
00:49:47,510 --> 00:49:48,382
that I did.
873
00:49:48,558 --> 00:49:51,894
Moshe: I mean, the only way to work through a
lot of these things is by working through
874
00:49:51,934 --> 00:49:52,494
them.
875
00:49:52,654 --> 00:49:54,510
And sometimes working through them is not
876
00:49:54,542 --> 00:49:57,354
easy, but it's the only way to work through
them.
877
00:49:58,094 --> 00:50:01,474
Leah: Speaking of working through them, this
last one was really cool.
878
00:50:01,654 --> 00:50:06,290
This person wrote to me, unrelated to your
question above, but I was just looking through
879
00:50:06,322 --> 00:50:12,490
your podcast episodes, and I'm super curious,
how did you two begin talking about this, and
880
00:50:12,522 --> 00:50:16,538
how did it actually happen?
I feel like I could never talk to my husband
881
00:50:16,586 --> 00:50:21,570
about any dreams, and if I do, he takes zero
action or minimal beginning action, but
882
00:50:21,602 --> 00:50:23,014
nothing gets accomplished.
883
00:50:23,594 --> 00:50:26,562
I would love to turn our mess into a message,
884
00:50:26,738 --> 00:50:29,054
but we aren't in the victory stage yet.
885
00:50:29,524 --> 00:50:31,884
I'm really intrigued by the success you seem
886
00:50:31,924 --> 00:50:35,156
to have in your neurodivergent, neurotypical
relationship.
887
00:50:35,340 --> 00:50:36,744
It's very sweet.
888
00:50:37,084 --> 00:50:39,344
It kind of made me blush a little bit because
889
00:50:39,804 --> 00:50:43,740
my initial reaction was, we're totally not in
the victory stage yet either.
890
00:50:43,812 --> 00:50:45,252
We're not taking a victory lap.
891
00:50:45,308 --> 00:50:46,104
This is.
892
00:50:46,804 --> 00:50:52,184
You guys are actually privileged to see us in
process dealing with these things.
893
00:50:52,724 --> 00:50:54,504
Moshe: It's really kind of an ongoing.
894
00:50:55,624 --> 00:50:57,536
It's an ongoing thing.
895
00:50:57,720 --> 00:51:02,640
But the reason that we did this podcast,
actually, there were a number of reasons, but
896
00:51:02,712 --> 00:51:08,928
one of the main reasons that we did this
podcast is because communication was the basis
897
00:51:08,976 --> 00:51:14,392
of how we were able to work through a lot of
the issues that we had.
898
00:51:14,568 --> 00:51:24,244
And unfortunately, a lot of other podcasts and
a lot of other series out there that discuss
899
00:51:25,344 --> 00:51:31,952
autism and neuro urgency and stuff, kind of
give it a bit of a flowery edge to it.
900
00:51:32,088 --> 00:51:36,480
And we kind of wanted to create more of a raw
experience where you were talking to a couple
901
00:51:36,512 --> 00:51:43,024
that were sort of in the midst and still
trying to work through a lot of what is going
902
00:51:43,064 --> 00:51:50,744
on with them, but still far enough through it
to share their experience and help others.
903
00:51:51,324 --> 00:51:58,300
Because being autistic is hard, and being
autistic and being in a relationship with
904
00:51:58,332 --> 00:52:02,664
someone who doesn't always speak the same
language as you is really hard.
905
00:52:02,964 --> 00:52:12,020
And being autistic and not understanding
yourself for most of your life, which I
906
00:52:12,052 --> 00:52:17,490
didn't, because on top of being autistic, I'm
an adult, a diagnosed autistic, who spent my
907
00:52:17,522 --> 00:52:22,922
entire life just thinking that there was
something dreadfully wrong with me was
908
00:52:22,978 --> 00:52:23,810
difficult.
909
00:52:24,002 --> 00:52:27,338
And we really wanted to be able to give people
910
00:52:27,386 --> 00:52:34,334
an insight into our situation and our family
and discuss some of the progress that we made.
911
00:52:35,194 --> 00:52:38,602
Leah: So a lot of it is, you know, message to
message.
912
00:52:38,658 --> 00:52:39,916
I really like that.
913
00:52:40,090 --> 00:52:43,216
But our current mess is the message.
914
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:49,112
We haven't completely cleaned up the mess yet,
so it's a messy message, if you will.
915
00:52:49,288 --> 00:52:54,072
Yeah, but the whole, you know, how did you fix
your husband thing?
916
00:52:54,128 --> 00:52:55,184
It's a little bit.
917
00:52:55,344 --> 00:52:56,848
It's a little bit sad in a way.
918
00:52:56,896 --> 00:53:03,152
It's a little bit like crazy hopeful on this
person's part, maybe, because the reality is,
919
00:53:03,288 --> 00:53:10,332
if we're doing our job correctly, will never
be done with this until the day we die.
920
00:53:10,388 --> 00:53:15,212
We'll never be done with this if we're doing
our job right, because he is not a problem to
921
00:53:15,228 --> 00:53:18,180
be fixed and I am not a problem to be fixed.
922
00:53:18,372 --> 00:53:21,516
It's just, does that person's garbage go with
923
00:53:21,540 --> 00:53:24,764
your garbage?
And that's the best you can hope for in any
924
00:53:24,804 --> 00:53:25,944
relationship, really?
925
00:53:26,364 --> 00:53:29,596
Moshe: Yes. Relationships are not meant to be
perfect.
926
00:53:29,740 --> 00:53:36,032
They're not meant to be victory laps where
everything is done and they can just lay back
927
00:53:36,088 --> 00:53:38,376
and coast for the rest of their lives.
928
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:42,120
You have to constantly be working on your
929
00:53:42,152 --> 00:53:46,976
relationship in order to have a healthy
relationship, because the minute that you
930
00:53:47,000 --> 00:53:51,472
become complacent and start taking a victory
lap, you end up getting hit in the back of the
931
00:53:51,488 --> 00:53:55,040
head with a baton, right?
932
00:53:55,232 --> 00:53:56,444
Leah: Absolutely.
933
00:53:57,404 --> 00:54:05,028
Moshe: So we're running a little bit long in
time, so we'll get to, I guess, our final
934
00:54:05,196 --> 00:54:12,092
story and also some really exciting news so
that we can at least end what is a very
935
00:54:12,148 --> 00:54:16,824
serious podcast on a very hopeful tone.
936
00:54:17,924 --> 00:54:25,288
Leah: So this one is a story that somebody
shared with Moshe, and it's only one, but it's
937
00:54:25,336 --> 00:54:28,632
extremely important because it's two things.
938
00:54:28,688 --> 00:54:31,296
It's an autistic sharing their story with
939
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:35,136
another autistic, but it's also a man sharing
their story with another man.
940
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,776
Yes, and as we postulated at the beginning of
this episode, people don't seem to think that
941
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:42,000
men can be abused, right?
942
00:54:42,192 --> 00:54:48,460
Moshe: Maybe we'll save the personal story of
my experience for another episode because
943
00:54:48,572 --> 00:54:51,704
we're running a bit low on time, but so we'll
start the story.
944
00:54:52,044 --> 00:54:56,544
This person who I don't know, we'll call him
subject five.
945
00:54:57,044 --> 00:55:02,024
He writes, June 16 is my 32nd birthday.
946
00:55:02,324 --> 00:55:04,044
I'm an autistic male.
947
00:55:04,204 --> 00:55:09,076
I was in a nine year long relationship prior
to my now wife of seven years.
948
00:55:09,260 --> 00:55:12,684
I was undiagnosed in this previous
relationship and because of that I really
949
00:55:12,724 --> 00:55:14,584
struggled with knowing how to meet my needs.
950
00:55:14,984 --> 00:55:16,976
My partner at the time heavily took advantage
951
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:18,024
of me for that.
952
00:55:18,184 --> 00:55:22,936
I did everything that I was asked for, but
953
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:28,604
she'd get angry if it was difficult for me or
if it had any sort of hurt or upset emotions.
954
00:55:28,984 --> 00:55:31,056
Especially after she would yell at me.
955
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:34,440
I was screamed at, belittled, sexually abused,
956
00:55:34,552 --> 00:55:35,924
and physically hit.
957
00:55:36,904 --> 00:55:40,884
I am a 6ft tall, 200 pound man, so I'm larger
958
00:55:40,924 --> 00:55:44,092
than she was, but I never use that to my
advantage.
959
00:55:44,268 --> 00:55:49,924
It took many years after finally I left that
relationship to begin to heal and get
960
00:55:49,964 --> 00:55:54,104
diagnosed and eventually learn how to be a
better person for myself and my wife.
961
00:55:54,604 --> 00:55:56,264
My partner is neurotypical.
962
00:55:56,644 --> 00:55:59,332
She had a lot of insecurities which caused
963
00:55:59,388 --> 00:56:04,804
lots of large fights, and during these fights
she would verbally insult me for being
964
00:56:04,844 --> 00:56:05,736
autistic.
965
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:07,792
She would intentionally tell me things that
966
00:56:07,808 --> 00:56:09,592
would trigger an emotional response.
967
00:56:09,728 --> 00:56:13,080
And when I would break down and cry, she would
968
00:56:13,112 --> 00:56:19,080
get physical and hit me, push me or slap me
and tell me that I was pathetic, that nobody
969
00:56:19,112 --> 00:56:23,484
would love someone like me except for her and
that I was broken.
970
00:56:24,024 --> 00:56:31,994
And he mentioned that he has a brain tumor
that messes with his hormones, so he he has
971
00:56:32,034 --> 00:56:37,746
some dysfunction in the bedroom and he said
whenever that would happen, she would accuse
972
00:56:37,770 --> 00:56:42,254
him of not being a real man or say that he was
clearly cheating on her.
973
00:56:42,794 --> 00:56:48,174
But he added that she was clearly projecting
because she cheated on him seven times.
974
00:56:48,634 --> 00:56:50,454
He said, I didn't know any better.
975
00:56:50,754 --> 00:56:52,914
I am a huge people pleaser.
976
00:56:53,074 --> 00:56:58,912
So when she yelled at me, I just accepted it
and apologized profusely and it caused massive
977
00:56:58,968 --> 00:57:04,964
sexual trauma down the line as well as a lot
of emotional trauma and lots of dysregulation.
978
00:57:05,744 --> 00:57:09,444
Leah: Well, I don't have a lot to say there.
979
00:57:09,744 --> 00:57:12,120
The only thing that I can say is that to
980
00:57:12,152 --> 00:57:17,144
subject five and everybody else who goes
through something like that, I am so sorry
981
00:57:17,184 --> 00:57:18,640
that that happened to you.
982
00:57:18,832 --> 00:57:20,480
Nobody deserves that.
983
00:57:20,672 --> 00:57:25,002
Not only does nobody deserve that, but nobody
deserves society.
984
00:57:25,138 --> 00:57:30,666
General lack of concern for men in abusive
relationships or disbelief that men can be
985
00:57:30,690 --> 00:57:32,174
abused in relationships.
986
00:57:32,594 --> 00:57:34,570
Hearing that story, I know how much you can
987
00:57:34,602 --> 00:57:39,214
identify with it, like almost on every single
point.
988
00:57:40,314 --> 00:57:43,494
And that makes me very sad for him and for
you.
989
00:57:43,874 --> 00:57:46,306
Moshe: Men can also be the victim of abuse.
990
00:57:46,410 --> 00:57:52,122
And just because a guy is a big man, I'm also
991
00:57:52,298 --> 00:57:56,594
about, you know, 511 6ft and over 200 pounds.
992
00:57:56,714 --> 00:57:59,258
It doesn't mean that just because you happen
993
00:57:59,306 --> 00:58:03,174
to be a large man that you're not capable of
being abused.
994
00:58:04,154 --> 00:58:10,058
It also definitely makes it a lot harder to be
believed because, like, how could someone like
995
00:58:10,106 --> 00:58:11,586
smaller than you do that to you?
996
00:58:11,650 --> 00:58:12,842
Leah: Absolutely.
997
00:58:13,018 --> 00:58:19,724
Moshe: So it's very rough and we're very
hopeful now that he said that he's in a new
998
00:58:19,764 --> 00:58:20,524
relationship.
999
00:58:20,644 --> 00:58:23,212
And in speaking with him further about his
1000
00:58:23,268 --> 00:58:29,396
situation, he seems to be very happy with his
partner and he seems to have figured his lone
1001
00:58:29,500 --> 00:58:30,344
life out.
1002
00:58:30,844 --> 00:58:35,900
So thank you very much for listening to this
1003
00:58:35,932 --> 00:58:36,884
podcast today.
1004
00:58:37,004 --> 00:58:39,476
There's a lot more stuff to discuss and I'm
1005
00:58:39,500 --> 00:58:42,564
sure we'll turn it into a future episode.
1006
00:58:42,604 --> 00:58:46,156
Leah: I think we have to promise them another
episode with your personal story now though,
1007
00:58:46,180 --> 00:58:46,690
moshe.
1008
00:58:46,772 --> 00:58:49,790
Moshe: Oh yeah, we'll definitely talk about my
personal story.
1009
00:58:49,942 --> 00:58:57,486
I'm curious now because my own story of abuse
does not fill up an entire podcast.
1010
00:58:57,550 --> 00:58:59,274
Leah: Or it does.
1011
00:59:00,334 --> 00:59:06,382
Moshe: Well, we'll save it for a future
episode and I'm sure we'll make something out
1012
00:59:06,398 --> 00:59:07,074
of it.
1013
00:59:07,374 --> 00:59:07,974
But.
1014
00:59:08,094 --> 00:59:20,872
So a few episodes ago, we discussed that we
had discovered a couple online that was kind
1015
00:59:20,888 --> 00:59:23,284
of a mirror image of us.
1016
00:59:23,704 --> 00:59:27,800
I am a neurodivergent man in a relationship
1017
00:59:27,832 --> 00:59:33,536
with a neurotypical woman, and they are a
neurodivergent woman in a relationship with a
1018
00:59:33,560 --> 00:59:34,844
neurotypical man.
1019
00:59:35,184 --> 00:59:37,312
And we've been talking back and forth.
1020
00:59:37,448 --> 00:59:38,376
Leah: It gets better.
1021
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:41,636
We have a son who's neurodivergent and they
1022
00:59:41,660 --> 00:59:43,852
have a daughter who's neurotypical.
1023
00:59:43,948 --> 00:59:45,732
Moshe: Yes. So they're.
1024
00:59:45,788 --> 00:59:47,700
They're a lovely couple and you can find them
1025
00:59:47,732 --> 00:59:51,300
on TikTok under study show as well as
Instagram.
1026
00:59:51,372 --> 00:59:56,636
I think their names are Adam and Becca and
they are amazing.
1027
00:59:56,820 --> 01:00:04,380
And hopefully next week we will be doing an
episode which we're still trying to work out.
1028
01:00:04,412 --> 01:00:13,396
The details of with them to discuss our
situations and chat with them about some of
1029
01:00:13,420 --> 01:00:17,788
our common interests and things that we share
in common.
1030
01:00:17,876 --> 01:00:23,332
But definitely go on TikTok and Instagram and
check out study show, and they.
1031
01:00:23,348 --> 01:00:27,284
Leah: Have a podcast called I think it's the
poison or the Alchemist.
1032
01:00:27,444 --> 01:00:29,704
Moshe: They have a podcast about.
1033
01:00:30,004 --> 01:00:31,436
Leah: It's about poisons.
1034
01:00:31,620 --> 01:00:32,708
It's very nerdy.
1035
01:00:32,796 --> 01:00:33,744
Moshe: I like it.
1036
01:00:34,094 --> 01:00:34,966
Could look it up.
1037
01:00:35,030 --> 01:00:36,678
I wish I could remember the name.
1038
01:00:36,846 --> 01:00:39,670
We'll put it in the, in the comments or the
1039
01:00:39,702 --> 01:00:44,718
description of this episode once we look it
up, but check it out and hopefully next week,
1040
01:00:44,766 --> 01:00:45,086
we'll.
1041
01:00:45,150 --> 01:00:48,214
Leah: We'Ll have an episode with the Poisoners
almanac is what?
1042
01:00:48,334 --> 01:00:49,334
Moshe: Poisoners almanac.
1043
01:00:49,374 --> 01:00:49,926
There it is.
1044
01:00:49,990 --> 01:00:51,406
Thank you, Leah.
1045
01:00:51,470 --> 01:00:53,998
With, with the say, poisoners Almanac study
1046
01:00:54,046 --> 01:00:55,502
show on TikTok and Instagram.
1047
01:00:55,558 --> 01:00:57,350
And hopefully next week we'll have an episode
1048
01:00:57,382 --> 01:01:00,564
where we'll, we'll all talk about stuff.
1049
01:01:00,644 --> 01:01:00,924
Leah: Stuff.
1050
01:01:00,964 --> 01:01:01,636
Moshe: We'll figure it out.
1051
01:01:01,700 --> 01:01:02,044
Leah: Yeah.
1052
01:01:02,124 --> 01:01:05,916
Moshe: So because of the nature of this
podcast episode, we're not going to have the
1053
01:01:05,940 --> 01:01:09,668
standard intro and extro because we thought it
was just a bit too peppy.
1054
01:01:09,836 --> 01:01:11,468
But again, thank you so much.
1055
01:01:11,556 --> 01:01:15,052
And if you were someone you care about is in
1056
01:01:15,068 --> 01:01:19,284
an abusive situation, you can either check out
the resources in the description to this
1057
01:01:19,324 --> 01:01:22,900
episode or you could look up on Google.
1058
01:01:22,932 --> 01:01:28,536
But please, please don't feel that you have to
1059
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,124
put up with that kind of situation.
1060
01:01:32,064 --> 01:01:34,920
Seek resources and get help.
1061
01:01:35,072 --> 01:01:36,280
Leave if you have to.
1062
01:01:36,352 --> 01:01:38,840
The communication is key.
1063
01:01:38,992 --> 01:01:39,744
We'll see you next week.