Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
Episode Title: From Compromise to Connection: Can Accommodations Strengthen Neurodiverse Relationships?
Episode Number: 12
Release Date: June 9, 2024
Duration: 01:12:21
Episode Summary:
In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah discuss reasonable and unreasonable accommodations in neurodiverse relationships. They emphasize that accommodations are not exclusive to neurodivergent individuals and should be a two-way street in any healthy relationship. The hosts explore the importance of clear communication, understanding, and compromise in navigating the unique challenges faced by neurodiverse couples. They also touch upon the significance of seeking professional help and support when needed.
Key Takeaways:
- Reasonable Accommodations: The episode provides examples of reasonable accommodations, such as clear communication, step-by-step instructions, adjustments to sensory stimuli, and seeking professional help.
- Unreasonable Accommodations: The hosts discuss unreasonable demands, such as expecting one partner to always prioritize the other's needs, refusing to work on communication, and blaming one partner for all relationship problems.
- The Importance of Communication: Moshe and Leah emphasize the importance of open and non-judgmental communication in understanding and accommodating each other's needs.
In This Episode, You Will Learn:
- How to identify and differentiate between reasonable and unreasonable accommodations.
- The significance of setting boundaries and expectations in a relationship.
- Strategies for navigating the unique challenges of neurodiverse relationships.
Quotes:
- "It's the difference between 'I need you to wash the dishes' and 'Okay, so I need you to go all over the place and find all the dirty dishes...'" - Moshe
- "The reality is they can also learn to accommodate other people in their life and not necessarily feel as sensitive or as bad or as much of a need for something that's unreasonable, but it takes work." - Leah
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Transcript:
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Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe and I'm autistic.
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Leah: I'm Leah and I'm boring.
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Welcome to the now, you know, one autistic
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podcast.
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Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast
reflect one autistic and one Leah and don't
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necessarily reflect the entire autistic
community.
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Leah: Let's get to it.
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Moshe: Hi, Leia.
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Leah: Hi, Moshe.
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Moshe: How are you doing today?
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Leah: I'm okay.
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How are you, sweetie?
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Moshe: I'm really well.
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Switching it up just a little bit.
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We're going to actually talk about something
that was a bit of a project for me because
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it's something that I wanted to discuss
specifically.
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So, Leah, what are we going to be talking
about today?
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Leah: I'm so excited because today is actually
a topic that I didn't research at all, nor did
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I do the outline.
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You did that all on your own because it's a
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topic that you're really passionate about.
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So I figured that we could actually just
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reverse the format where I usually, you know,
make the outlines and prompt all the
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conversations, and you just talk about them
where you could drive the show.
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So I'm going to ask you, what are we talking
about today, Moshe?
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Moshe: So we're going to be discussing the
first in a series of topics that are a little
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bit less light hearted and a little bit more
serious.
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And to start off with, today's topic is going
to be reasonable and unreasonable demands,
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accommodations, and requirements of
neurodivergence.
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Specifically because our podcast is about
relationships.
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It's going to be about sort of zeroed in on
neurodivergence and relationships with non
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neurodivergence and reasonable and
unreasonable accommodations that either the
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neurotypical of the neurotransmitters put on
each other and what makes an accommodation or
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a request or demand reasonable, and what makes
it unreasonable.
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And we're going to be sharing some personal
stories, and we're going to be talking about
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stories that other people have shared with us.
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Because we did go into the online community
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and we put it out there that we were going to
be doing this episode and we asked for
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personal.
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Leah: Experiences, we kind of thought.
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So both of us did that for the next few
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episodes, which are going to be, as Moshe
said, a bit heavier topics.
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And I also expected it, as well as Moshe, that
people really wouldn't want to share.
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But we found the opposite.
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Moshe: Exactly.
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Leah: People in this kind of situation are
few, far between, and rare, so they just
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really want to be heard.
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Moshe: A lot of these people that we've
discussed, because we've been on the forums,
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on Facebook and on Reddit and other social
media sites a lot, just to kind of see what
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people are talking about.
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And we noticed a few trends.
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But surprisingly, we never actually, it never
really occurred to us that we would put it out
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there, because, again, like you said, we
thought that people would be like, we are not
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comfortable talking about this.
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This is not something that we want to share.
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Leah: I thought I would get feedback, but I'd
have to pull teeth.
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But people are just throwing feedback at me.
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They just really want to be heard.
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They want to discuss their unique situation
that they don't see mirrored in their everyday
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life around them.
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Moshe: Right. And it's.
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It's an interesting dynamic because of us and
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because I am autistic and you are not, as far
as we know.
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As far as we know.
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So it's a bit of an interesting perspective,
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especially for those who have been listening
to the podcast since we begun.
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We did plan at one point or another to do an
episode devoted to Q and A, and we'd still
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absolutely love to do that.
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But we sort of switched it up a little bit and
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decided that we were going to go fishing, in
effect, for personal stories and then share
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those on the episodes, at least for these sort
of topics.
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And eventually we will get back to just
talking about communication, some other things
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that we wanted to.
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So to start us off, leah, when you hear the
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term accommodation, or request or demand or
allowance or any variation of that, especially
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when it comes to someone who is autistic, what
does that sound like to you?
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Leah: Well, I have a very unique perspective
in terms of accommodations for all things.
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What I've learned to do over my lifetime is to
measure one person wants something, one person
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wants something else.
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How important is it to one person versus the
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other person?
Is it going to harm the other person to give
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the other person what they want?
If not, the person with the greater need, and
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the person who has to make the less sacrifice
should give the other person that thing.
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So for me, when I think of accommodation, I
think of that.
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But if you're asking me of definition.
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So, for example, an accommodation that an
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autistic might ask of their non neurodivergent
partner would be, can we keep the lights low?
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Can you not hear music loud?
Can we not have sex tonight?
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I'm feeling particularly, you know, not like
being touched.
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And those, I think, would be reasonable.
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But then you sort of go into the.
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You're not allowed to think that.
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You're not allowed to feel that, because that
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doesn't go with the way I view the world
stuff.
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And that's an unreasonable accommodation.
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Moshe: Right.
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Leah: Whereas something a neurotypical might
do to their neurodivergent is say stuff like,
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no, I really want to be held, cuddled or have
sex tonight.
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So you can't have your sensitivities, which
also would be unreasonable, for sure.
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Or they would say, could we please turn the
lights on a little more?
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Because I have to read something for work.
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And that would be reasonable.
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It does go both ways, but it really has to do
with measuring how much someone wants to do
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something versus how much they don't want to
do something, how high the need is for someone
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else versus how easy it is for the other
person to give it to them.
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Moshe: Definitely. And I mean, we're going to
be discussing today the differences between
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what a reasonable accommodation would be,
whether in a relationship or otherwise, and
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what would make something that someone would
request unreasonable.
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So we'll start off by saying that it's not
clear cut.
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And also, as a disclaimer for basically every
episode, certain autistics may require certain
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things, and certain autistics may require
other things.
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And something that might be reasonable for one
person might actually be unreasonable for
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another.
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Leah: I think my point is, and this is
revolutionary, I think, for a lot of people,
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and I think I'm going to get a lot of hate
about this.
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But require, the word require I have a problem
with.
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Because people can have therapy, people can
think themselves out of, people can train
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themselves out of or into not necessarily
requiring these unreasonable things anymore.
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And there are therapies geared towards
neurotypical people, which I'd like to talk
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about my experience a little bit later on,
that they wouldn't necessarily even think of
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giving to a neurodivergent person because the
idea is, well, oh, they have a sensitivity.
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We just have to back off and have to live with
it.
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And the reality is they can also learn to
accommodate other people in their life and not
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necessarily feel as sensitive or as bad or as
much of a need for something that's
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unreasonable, but it takes work.
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Moshe: Right?
And I think this really lends itself to the
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fact, as I have said on a number of occasions,
that autism, it's still not as well known or
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well understood as it could be compared to,
for example, something that is slightly more
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clear cut, like certain mental illnesses like
depression or anxiety.
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Leah: I don't know that we would have ever
even had that breakthrough if I didn't know
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you as a child, though.
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That was a piece that's missing for a lot of
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people because I was like, I know you.
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You can do better than this.
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And we were like, I can't, because I da da da.
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And I was like, no, no, you're better than
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this.
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Moshe: So a lot of times with the evolution of
neurodivergency and specifically of autism,
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there's been sort of an expectation that they
fall into a category of their own and that
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certain things that when done by other people,
even other people with diagnosed mental
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illnesses, that something like therapy or
conditioning would eventually get them out of
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it, that someone who is autistic is just,
that's the way it is.
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It's never going to change.
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We just have to learn to deal with it.
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Point, end of sentence.
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Leah: Right.
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Okay, so we'll talk about it now because it's
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coming up a lot.
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Somebody who's autistic says, this makes me
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very anxious.
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The majority of people will be like, oh, let's
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remove the stimuli.
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We don't want them to be anxious.
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We don't want to give them anxiety.
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They don't have to do this thing, whatever
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thing you want to talk about.
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Moshe: Right.
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Leah: I am diagnosed with an anxiety disorder.
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In fact, for a few years it was a panic
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disorder that needed medication and therapy.
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And I, as a neurotypical, the treatment that I
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got was for them to say, no, you can't
function like this.
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If something makes you anxious, you have to
challenge it.
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You have to work through it.
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You have to figure out how to get over that
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sensitivity and believe you mean it's actually
a sensitivity and you need to be able to do
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the thing.
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And literally there's a therapy called
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cognitive behavioral therapy, which CBT only
teaches you to do that.
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What are you afraid of?
Okay, so I'm afraid of police sirens.
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All right, so we're going to delve deep into
why and then we're going to talk about it.
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And then we're going to expose you to them and
then we're going to give you tactics to be
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able to handle them.
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And all of a sudden, boom.
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You're not afraid of police sirens anymore.
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Moshe: Right?
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Leah: So where I would, you know, sort of be
on the road and hear a police siren and cover
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my ears and go into a fetal position just like
you would see an autistic having a meltdown.
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You know, I went through this therapy and then
all of a sudden I could handle them.
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I still don't like them.
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They still make me uncomfortable.
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But I don't need that unreasonable
accommodation of like, oh, I heard a siren.
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My days over.
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I need to go home and hide in my closet now.
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Moshe: Right?
And later on in this episode, we're going to
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be going into some personal experiences.
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And one experience that someone actually wrote
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in to us about.
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Was very similar to an experience that I often
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struggled with.
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And that led very much to the things that
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you're talking about.
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Where I was experiencing a sensitivity.
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And it was a very real sensitivity.
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They didn't might.
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They might not have known it at the time.
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You might have thought it was just me acting.
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Leah: Nobody's saying anybody's sensitivity is
not real.
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Nobody.
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I believe 100% that things are 100% real to
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the people who are experiencing them.
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Like this whole psychosomatic, you're making
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it up thing.
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I don't really buy that.
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But if you want a certain life, you have to
work through them.
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That is my ultimate point.
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Moshe: So what's sort of a byproduct of.
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Of the facility that I was a part of for a
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while.
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Which I'll get into in a bit.
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And it actually did help me a great deal.
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And I'll talk about it at that point.
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So we're going to define accommodations as
reasonable and unreasonable.
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And there's a bit of gray between them.
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Because something that might seem on the
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surface to be reasonable.
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Can actually end up being unreasonable.
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And the example that I gave in my notes was a
situation.
219
00:12:12,292 --> 00:12:14,628
And again, we're going to be telling a lot of
personal stories.
220
00:12:14,676 --> 00:12:18,916
And for the privacy and respect of the
individuals, we've left out all the names or
221
00:12:18,940 --> 00:12:20,544
changed them if they were necessary.
222
00:12:21,644 --> 00:12:26,944
And in this situation, we're talking about
223
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another autistic person that.
224
00:12:30,724 --> 00:12:33,180
A married autistic person that I know of.
225
00:12:33,372 --> 00:12:41,276
And in her relationship, they really struggle
with social situations.
226
00:12:41,460 --> 00:12:44,212
And her husband is so attuned to her.
227
00:12:44,348 --> 00:12:46,852
That when they go out into social situations.
228
00:12:46,988 --> 00:12:49,212
Where there's people directly talking to her.
229
00:12:49,268 --> 00:12:51,784
Or there's people directly talking in general.
230
00:12:52,124 --> 00:12:55,664
Where there's a lot of noise or a lot of
things.
231
00:12:56,004 --> 00:12:59,140
And she finds herself in the situation.
232
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When he identifies that she is experiencing
233
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anxiety or over stimulation.
234
00:13:06,844 --> 00:13:09,756
He will actually tell the people that they're
235
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with, you know, so and so is done for the day.
236
00:13:13,052 --> 00:13:15,460
We're leaving them and just kind of escort her
237
00:13:15,492 --> 00:13:15,852
out.
238
00:13:15,948 --> 00:13:16,588
Leah: Right.
239
00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:21,236
Moshe: Like a rock star out the back door
after a concert.
240
00:13:21,420 --> 00:13:26,860
And on the surface, possibly to her partner.
241
00:13:27,012 --> 00:13:28,548
That may seem perfectly reasonable.
242
00:13:28,596 --> 00:13:29,628
I love my wife.
243
00:13:29,756 --> 00:13:31,324
I see that she's very anxious.
244
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I want to help her.
245
00:13:32,484 --> 00:13:33,564
I will be her advocate.
246
00:13:33,604 --> 00:13:35,948
And I will get her out of the situation that
makes her anxious.
247
00:13:36,036 --> 00:13:38,452
Leah: Yes, but other perspective.
248
00:13:38,508 --> 00:13:40,540
And again, I'm not looking for love in this
249
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episode.
250
00:13:40,972 --> 00:13:43,404
I think because I have some very harsh
251
00:13:43,444 --> 00:13:47,116
perspectives does that sound to you like a
husband, or does that sound to you like a
252
00:13:47,140 --> 00:13:48,584
caretaker and handler?
253
00:13:50,394 --> 00:13:54,934
Moshe: It definitely sounds to me like a
caretaker and a handler.
254
00:13:55,274 --> 00:13:59,818
And the thing that's going to come up again
and again as we discuss some of these other
255
00:13:59,866 --> 00:14:09,402
examples, is while you are experiencing a
situation where this person is experiencing an
256
00:14:09,418 --> 00:14:16,048
oversensitivity and they're in distress and
the inclination might be to remove them from
257
00:14:16,136 --> 00:14:25,728
the situation, it kind of flips on Ted, when
you consider that this person is in a marriage
258
00:14:25,776 --> 00:14:26,920
like relationship.
259
00:14:27,072 --> 00:14:32,704
They have a job, they have, presumably, a
260
00:14:32,744 --> 00:14:33,324
life.
261
00:14:33,664 --> 00:14:37,776
They have functionality in and out of the
262
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:38,364
house.
263
00:14:38,904 --> 00:14:41,560
But in order for them to be in a social
264
00:14:41,632 --> 00:14:50,106
situation, they have to get a force field
around them, in a sense of having a partner
265
00:14:50,290 --> 00:14:53,674
who will allow them out of the situation.
266
00:14:53,754 --> 00:14:57,170
I'll tell you exactly, from my perspective,
267
00:14:57,202 --> 00:14:59,586
why that is not necessarily a good thing.
268
00:14:59,730 --> 00:15:02,594
Because, number one, it's not allowing them to
269
00:15:02,634 --> 00:15:04,282
overcome their sensitivity.
270
00:15:04,458 --> 00:15:07,454
Number two, it's not allowing them to express
271
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their feelings.
272
00:15:08,906 --> 00:15:09,342
Leah: Right?
273
00:15:09,438 --> 00:15:14,966
Moshe: Because if you, if you do not allow
someone who's oversensitized, and I mean,
274
00:15:15,030 --> 00:15:21,286
individual rights are important, and whether
or not you agree with being able to deal with
275
00:15:21,310 --> 00:15:27,542
things like this or not, at the very least,
they should be in a position to say, you know
276
00:15:27,558 --> 00:15:28,794
what?
I'm really sorry.
277
00:15:29,494 --> 00:15:31,558
I'm feeling really overwhelmed right now.
278
00:15:31,606 --> 00:15:33,806
I'm gonna have to leave this situation,
279
00:15:33,990 --> 00:15:36,750
because at least then they're at least
expressing their needs.
280
00:15:36,862 --> 00:15:41,286
Leah: I totally respect you when that happens
for you.
281
00:15:41,310 --> 00:15:45,382
It takes a lot for that to happen, because
you're very stubborn in terms of, I am going
282
00:15:45,398 --> 00:15:47,190
to function as a normal adult now.
283
00:15:47,222 --> 00:15:47,910
Moshe: I am.
284
00:15:48,062 --> 00:15:52,446
Leah: I wasn't before, but I am very
respectful of you.
285
00:15:52,470 --> 00:15:57,134
When that happens, however, I will, I will
never do it for you.
286
00:15:57,294 --> 00:16:00,254
If you say, okay, I'm done, we have to go, I
will go with you.
287
00:16:00,294 --> 00:16:04,444
I will get you out of the situation, but I
will never stand up and be like, okay,
288
00:16:04,484 --> 00:16:07,424
everybody, moshe the king is done for the day.
289
00:16:07,764 --> 00:16:09,980
Everybody be silent and be gone.
290
00:16:10,052 --> 00:16:11,824
Like never.
291
00:16:12,964 --> 00:16:13,892
Moshe: And that parallels.
292
00:16:13,948 --> 00:16:17,092
Was the situation that because you're an.
293
00:16:17,108 --> 00:16:19,124
Leah: Adult, make that decision for yourself?
294
00:16:19,204 --> 00:16:21,624
Moshe: Exactly. And it's growth.
295
00:16:22,084 --> 00:16:25,772
Growth is, if you're standing there, you know,
296
00:16:25,828 --> 00:16:33,216
shaking or crying or stimming because you're
feeling overstimulated or oversensitized or
297
00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:39,444
overwhelmed, then it's like we tell Avram,
you're obviously very upset.
298
00:16:39,864 --> 00:16:42,776
Use your words to explain what's going, what's
happening.
299
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,404
Tell me what's happening.
300
00:16:44,944 --> 00:16:47,536
Because if you don't allow the person to get
301
00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:52,400
to a point where they are able to express
their needs or express their wants.
302
00:16:52,552 --> 00:16:58,180
Then you are, in effect, being their
caregiver, their parent, their handler,
303
00:16:58,332 --> 00:16:59,796
instead of their partner.
304
00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:04,012
Leah: And both you and he have been in
situations where you're shaking, crying,
305
00:17:04,068 --> 00:17:06,984
covering your ears in a public place.
306
00:17:07,484 --> 00:17:09,260
And we've been like, do you want to go?
307
00:17:09,332 --> 00:17:12,004
And you've both been like, no, we're going to
stay.
308
00:17:12,044 --> 00:17:14,276
I'm just having a thing, right?
309
00:17:14,460 --> 00:17:17,156
Moshe: And that comes from, I just need.
310
00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:20,364
Leah: To move to a different area, or that's
just a little too loud, or that smell bothered
311
00:17:20,404 --> 00:17:20,718
me.
312
00:17:20,796 --> 00:17:21,362
You're a second.
313
00:17:21,418 --> 00:17:22,666
Moshe: And Abram is really good.
314
00:17:22,810 --> 00:17:26,922
He'll especially given his age, he's a lot of
315
00:17:26,938 --> 00:17:32,394
the time, not always, but a lot of the time,
he's very good at saying, mom, Abba, this is
316
00:17:32,434 --> 00:17:33,494
really loud.
317
00:17:33,794 --> 00:17:35,370
I'm going to sit over there.
318
00:17:35,522 --> 00:17:37,394
Leah: And that doesn't come out of a bottle
like that.
319
00:17:37,434 --> 00:17:39,106
That's because we encourage that.
320
00:17:39,210 --> 00:17:44,282
Moshe: Yes. Because when he would sit there
and he would cover his ears or he would look
321
00:17:44,298 --> 00:17:47,458
very distressed, you or I would go out, are
you okay?
322
00:17:47,506 --> 00:17:50,002
Is the sound bothering you?
Is there something going on?
323
00:17:50,178 --> 00:17:52,050
You know, and would say, it's very loud.
324
00:17:52,082 --> 00:17:53,874
I'm like, okay, well, what do you want to do?
325
00:17:54,034 --> 00:17:56,906
Because we were trying to help him to express
himself.
326
00:17:57,090 --> 00:18:02,914
Leah: And one thing that you can do as a
spouse or a parent, instead of just assuming
327
00:18:02,994 --> 00:18:07,298
and whisking your autistic away, which I know
you want to because you love them and you want
328
00:18:07,306 --> 00:18:10,058
to protect them, of course, you could say, do
you want to leave?
329
00:18:10,186 --> 00:18:13,250
And sometimes the answer is actually no, I
don't want to leave.
330
00:18:13,442 --> 00:18:14,674
I'm enjoying this thing.
331
00:18:14,714 --> 00:18:16,684
Just something happened and I need a minute.
332
00:18:16,794 --> 00:18:17,444
Moshe: Right.
333
00:18:18,504 --> 00:18:19,912
So let's move on.
334
00:18:20,088 --> 00:18:26,592
Just some examples that I looked up or I wrote
up or I thought about reasonable
335
00:18:26,728 --> 00:18:30,112
accommodations or demands in a relationship.
336
00:18:30,168 --> 00:18:33,592
Leah: Oh, I actually do have a couple of
thoughts about the example of that person you
337
00:18:33,608 --> 00:18:36,004
were giving the one in the marriage like
relationship.
338
00:18:36,624 --> 00:18:37,120
Sorry.
339
00:18:37,192 --> 00:18:38,416
Moshe: No, we'll talk about it.
340
00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:39,320
Leah: I don't want to forget them.
341
00:18:39,352 --> 00:18:40,244
They were good.
342
00:18:40,744 --> 00:18:43,194
So reasonable versus unreasonable.
343
00:18:43,304 --> 00:18:45,238
That exact situation could be both.
344
00:18:45,286 --> 00:18:46,718
And I'll explain to you why.
345
00:18:46,886 --> 00:18:49,366
I bet you that situation for them is very
346
00:18:49,430 --> 00:18:49,942
reasonable.
347
00:18:49,998 --> 00:18:52,830
I bet you they are without children.
348
00:18:53,022 --> 00:18:53,702
Moshe: Yes.
349
00:18:53,838 --> 00:18:55,806
Leah: I bet you they are independently
wealthy.
350
00:18:55,870 --> 00:18:56,374
Moshe: Yes.
351
00:18:56,494 --> 00:18:57,154
Leah: Right.
352
00:18:57,974 --> 00:19:00,382
If we didn't have children and we had all the
353
00:19:00,398 --> 00:19:03,150
money in the world, I could just baby you all
day too.
354
00:19:03,222 --> 00:19:07,614
And we might both find that very agreeable,
because I love doing it and you love me doing
355
00:19:07,654 --> 00:19:10,222
it, but we don't have that luxury.
356
00:19:10,278 --> 00:19:12,582
So for them, it actually might be a reasonable
357
00:19:12,638 --> 00:19:17,700
accommodation, though it seems ridiculous to,
you know, the unwashed masses like us, but for
358
00:19:17,732 --> 00:19:20,236
us, it would be absolutely unreasonable.
359
00:19:20,420 --> 00:19:25,420
Moshe: Right?
And you're the one who would tell me,
360
00:19:25,612 --> 00:19:30,384
especially in those situations, that if you
are to.
361
00:19:31,684 --> 00:19:43,186
If you are to have you understand what I'm
looking for and you are to understand that
362
00:19:43,210 --> 00:19:47,570
this is what I want, then there are certain
expectations of me.
363
00:19:47,722 --> 00:19:52,506
Because if I were to come to you and say,
look, I really love you, I really want to be
364
00:19:52,530 --> 00:19:53,294
with you.
365
00:19:53,794 --> 00:19:57,650
I know you have children, but I really need
366
00:19:57,682 --> 00:20:03,130
you to devote most of your time to me if we're
going to be together, because I have a lot of
367
00:20:03,162 --> 00:20:07,896
needs that need to be responded to, and this
is something that is required for me to
368
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:08,648
function.
369
00:20:08,816 --> 00:20:10,656
You would say, I don't think I can give that
370
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:11,032
to you.
371
00:20:11,088 --> 00:20:13,024
Leah: That actually sort of happened in our
relationship.
372
00:20:13,064 --> 00:20:14,352
And that's exactly what I said.
373
00:20:14,408 --> 00:20:15,520
I wasn't actually that nice.
374
00:20:15,552 --> 00:20:19,096
I said, no, you want to be a dad?
Man up.
375
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,816
Moshe: Right?
And it might have seemed a bit harsh on the
376
00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:28,656
surface, but it put me in a position where I
had to decide if my sensitivities and my needs
377
00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:36,450
and my autism, if you will, was more important
to me than what I genuinely wanted.
378
00:20:36,642 --> 00:20:43,810
And it turned out that I was prepared to
struggle and work and suffer in order to get
379
00:20:43,962 --> 00:20:45,690
the things that were important to me.
380
00:20:45,722 --> 00:20:46,634
Leah: Parenting is suffering.
381
00:20:46,714 --> 00:20:48,690
Anybody out there who's thinking about it, if
382
00:20:48,722 --> 00:20:51,490
you don't absolutely want to have kids, don't
do it.
383
00:20:51,602 --> 00:20:52,254
Moshe: Right?
384
00:20:52,714 --> 00:20:54,374
Leah: It's a job, I'll tell you.
385
00:20:55,354 --> 00:21:01,874
Moshe: So before we get into the list of
demands, I'd actually like to discuss what
386
00:21:01,914 --> 00:21:08,668
happened at an event that we attended on
Friday, because that's a really good example.
387
00:21:08,836 --> 00:21:14,092
Ironically enough, while we were discussing
building this episode, this happened, and it
388
00:21:14,108 --> 00:21:19,836
gave us a really good opportunity to
experience, live and in person reasonable and
389
00:21:19,860 --> 00:21:21,740
unreasonable accommodations.
390
00:21:21,812 --> 00:21:25,820
Leah: Actually, us researching and talking
about this episode made me behave differently
391
00:21:25,852 --> 00:21:28,064
than I normally would have in that situation.
392
00:21:28,514 --> 00:21:30,322
And then I told you about it, and I was very
393
00:21:30,378 --> 00:21:31,226
proud of myself.
394
00:21:31,330 --> 00:21:31,778
Moshe: You were.
395
00:21:31,826 --> 00:21:33,474
So let's talk about from your perspective,
396
00:21:33,514 --> 00:21:36,426
because I was the one a bit overwhelmed.
397
00:21:36,570 --> 00:21:41,738
Leah: So this was Friday before Shabbos, and
it was a very overwhelming day.
398
00:21:41,826 --> 00:21:45,466
You, I don't know, for whatever reason, you
weren't feeling well, and you hadn't.
399
00:21:45,530 --> 00:21:50,002
You woke up really tired, right?
So you woke up in essentially the midst of a
400
00:21:50,018 --> 00:21:52,674
meltdown, which, by the way, happens with
Abram every morning.
401
00:21:52,754 --> 00:21:54,854
And you're such a hero for dealing with it.
402
00:21:55,294 --> 00:21:57,542
But it happened to you on Friday, for whatever
403
00:21:57,598 --> 00:21:57,862
reason.
404
00:21:57,918 --> 00:21:58,790
We stayed up too late.
405
00:21:58,822 --> 00:22:03,070
We watched a comedy show or, you know, and you
weren't quite feeling well and you were having
406
00:22:03,102 --> 00:22:04,270
some asthma things and you just.
407
00:22:04,302 --> 00:22:05,846
You woke up in the middle of a meltdown,
408
00:22:05,950 --> 00:22:08,114
essentially, right?
Is what happened.
409
00:22:08,534 --> 00:22:11,478
And it just so happened that you didn't have
time to nurse that meltdown.
410
00:22:11,526 --> 00:22:16,754
You had to go to Raya's school because it was
the father daughter date, right?
411
00:22:17,134 --> 00:22:21,406
So you didn't really have time to get the rest
you needed or work through your meltdown.
412
00:22:21,470 --> 00:22:23,512
We just have to sort of slap a band aid on it.
413
00:22:23,528 --> 00:22:24,604
And you had to go.
414
00:22:26,424 --> 00:22:30,168
And then you came home and you wanted to rest.
415
00:22:30,336 --> 00:22:33,400
But there was a family event going on with the
416
00:22:33,432 --> 00:22:35,504
synagogue and they wanted us to come.
417
00:22:35,624 --> 00:22:36,024
Moshe: Right.
418
00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:39,552
Leah: And we discussed back and forth for a
while if it would be reasonable for you to
419
00:22:39,568 --> 00:22:40,264
stay home and sleep.
420
00:22:40,304 --> 00:22:41,920
And I thought it would be, but then you didn't
421
00:22:41,952 --> 00:22:45,528
think it was because you thought that you
needed to be there, because you needed to be
422
00:22:45,536 --> 00:22:46,884
there for me and the kids.
423
00:22:47,824 --> 00:22:50,168
So I said, okay, you can go.
424
00:22:50,256 --> 00:22:54,122
And we went, but I knew that it wasn't going
to be great.
425
00:22:54,178 --> 00:22:56,010
It went better than I thought it would.
426
00:22:56,202 --> 00:23:01,034
But this was a predecessor to you not doing
427
00:23:01,074 --> 00:23:02,882
very well in a social situation.
428
00:23:03,058 --> 00:23:06,418
Obviously, it was very hot.
429
00:23:06,586 --> 00:23:11,978
It was sort of one of those events where they
have bouncy castles for the kids and there's
430
00:23:12,026 --> 00:23:16,874
food, where, you know, and lots and lots of
people when there's food, obviously live
431
00:23:16,914 --> 00:23:17,186
music.
432
00:23:17,250 --> 00:23:20,862
It was an indoor outdoor thing, live music.
433
00:23:21,038 --> 00:23:26,206
And they had, for whatever reason, the
ambulance people there giving demonstrations,
434
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:30,134
which on the surface, I thought was a horrible
idea because it was actually an event for
435
00:23:30,174 --> 00:23:31,422
special needs kids.
436
00:23:31,598 --> 00:23:33,366
And I didn't understand why they would scare
437
00:23:33,430 --> 00:23:34,942
special needs kids with the ambulance.
438
00:23:34,998 --> 00:23:36,830
Moshe: But I know it was kind of neat.
439
00:23:36,862 --> 00:23:39,594
I went into the facility and they were like,
440
00:23:40,814 --> 00:23:46,450
in Israel, the ambulance is called mada, which
stands for Magenadom David or Megan Divvy
441
00:23:46,522 --> 00:23:47,098
Adam.
442
00:23:47,226 --> 00:23:48,594
It means red shield.
443
00:23:48,754 --> 00:23:50,018
Anyway, it doesn't matter.
444
00:23:50,106 --> 00:23:52,098
But, like, they were, like, taking these kids
445
00:23:52,186 --> 00:23:57,986
and putting them on, like, a spinal board and
then, like, stabilizing their head and
446
00:23:58,010 --> 00:24:03,226
strapping them down and then lifting them up
and, like, bringing them into the ambulance
447
00:24:03,290 --> 00:24:04,514
and pulling them out of the ambulance.
448
00:24:04,554 --> 00:24:05,386
Like, they were like.
449
00:24:05,490 --> 00:24:09,282
And they were trying to show how quickly they
could get somebody from, like, on the floor to
450
00:24:09,378 --> 00:24:11,002
on the boat, the board.
451
00:24:11,138 --> 00:24:12,426
It was kind of neat, and I'm.
452
00:24:12,450 --> 00:24:13,818
Leah: Sure some kids would like that.
453
00:24:13,866 --> 00:24:15,352
Avram would hate that.
454
00:24:15,538 --> 00:24:18,812
Like, he doesn't even, like, sort of being
touched, so he would have hated that.
455
00:24:18,948 --> 00:24:22,572
So from my perspective, I was like, I don't
understand the ambulance thing, but I guess it
456
00:24:22,588 --> 00:24:24,864
was fine for some people.
457
00:24:25,404 --> 00:24:28,068
Now, having said that, Avram was also
458
00:24:28,116 --> 00:24:32,372
overwhelmed because he has trouble with
temperature differentials, and it was an
459
00:24:32,388 --> 00:24:33,228
indoor outdoor event.
460
00:24:33,276 --> 00:24:36,076
And he left our air conditioned apartment into
461
00:24:36,140 --> 00:24:37,644
40 degree heat to begin with.
462
00:24:37,684 --> 00:24:41,434
So every time he has a temperature shift,
463
00:24:41,604 --> 00:24:44,838
Avraham does this thing where he's like, oh,
my God, I can't nauseous.
464
00:24:44,886 --> 00:24:46,246
My stomach hurts, I'm gonna throw up.
465
00:24:46,270 --> 00:24:46,942
I can't see.
466
00:24:46,998 --> 00:24:50,958
Oh, no. For five minutes, and then he's fine,
but constant.
467
00:24:51,006 --> 00:24:53,262
Like, from cold to hot, hot to cold, hot.
468
00:24:53,438 --> 00:24:55,154
It's not a thing for him.
469
00:24:56,054 --> 00:24:58,006
So he was already overwhelmed on the way.
470
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:59,310
And then we were dealing with that.
471
00:24:59,342 --> 00:25:06,118
And then we got there and we went inside with
the adults to get food, which was an immediate
472
00:25:06,166 --> 00:25:07,918
mistake, because there were people everywhere.
473
00:25:07,966 --> 00:25:09,208
It was very loud.
474
00:25:09,366 --> 00:25:10,820
Everyone was crowding around the food.
475
00:25:10,852 --> 00:25:12,180
I was trying to get us something to eat.
476
00:25:12,212 --> 00:25:14,340
You were very concerned about people touching
me.
477
00:25:14,372 --> 00:25:15,828
We're, like, swatting people away.
478
00:25:15,956 --> 00:25:18,104
It was a really uncomfortable situation.
479
00:25:18,604 --> 00:25:20,996
And then we went outside, and we were okay.
480
00:25:21,020 --> 00:25:22,276
It was hot, but we were okay.
481
00:25:22,300 --> 00:25:29,036
We ate with the kids, and then the ambulance
people came outside, and they started to do
482
00:25:29,060 --> 00:25:29,972
the siren.
483
00:25:30,108 --> 00:25:32,660
Moshe: They let the kids go in and turn on and
off with the siren.
484
00:25:32,692 --> 00:25:36,432
Leah: And stuff, but it was in a very enclosed
space, and it was very loud.
485
00:25:36,488 --> 00:25:38,648
To be honest with you, it even bothered me.
486
00:25:38,816 --> 00:25:42,004
So what that caused for you was an immediate,
487
00:25:42,464 --> 00:25:43,840
like, sensory overload.
488
00:25:43,872 --> 00:25:46,224
You clamped your hands over your ears, you
489
00:25:46,264 --> 00:25:47,224
scrunched down.
490
00:25:47,344 --> 00:25:49,592
You sort of, like, did this face where you
491
00:25:49,608 --> 00:25:50,840
were in a lot of pain.
492
00:25:51,032 --> 00:25:54,616
Avraham does the same thing, but he sort of
493
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:59,632
brushed it off a little bit faster than you
because he was in better shape than you, and
494
00:25:59,728 --> 00:26:01,884
you were just in a lot of distress.
495
00:26:02,944 --> 00:26:05,352
So I decided that I was going to go over to
496
00:26:05,368 --> 00:26:08,684
the ambulance and tell them that they need to
not do that.
497
00:26:09,544 --> 00:26:11,080
And, you know, I was already with my.
498
00:26:11,112 --> 00:26:11,776
How dare you?
499
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:13,520
You're at an event for special needs people.
500
00:26:13,592 --> 00:26:15,264
What's wrong with you, making noise like this?
501
00:26:15,304 --> 00:26:16,164
Stop it.
502
00:26:17,304 --> 00:26:20,448
And when I got there, I saw what you saw,
503
00:26:20,496 --> 00:26:23,592
which was that kids were actually having fun
with the siren.
504
00:26:23,768 --> 00:26:26,776
And I went, no, this is an unreasonable
accommodation.
505
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,898
Moshe wouldn't even want me to do this.
506
00:26:29,056 --> 00:26:32,062
And I just left, and I came back to you, and I
507
00:26:32,078 --> 00:26:36,006
told you proudly, while you were still having
sort of a crisis, but I told you that I didn't
508
00:26:36,030 --> 00:26:36,286
do it.
509
00:26:36,310 --> 00:26:37,990
I changed my mind because of what we've been
510
00:26:38,022 --> 00:26:38,486
talking about.
511
00:26:38,510 --> 00:26:39,798
And I didn't say anything.
512
00:26:39,966 --> 00:26:42,358
And you were actually really happy that I
didn't.
513
00:26:42,486 --> 00:26:45,310
So then I switched to sort of tending to you.
514
00:26:45,342 --> 00:26:45,974
So I let you.
515
00:26:46,014 --> 00:26:50,246
You sort of were, like, touching my skirt and
looking at the patterns and just meeting me
516
00:26:50,270 --> 00:26:52,514
close to you, and I was rubbing your beard.
517
00:26:52,934 --> 00:26:55,834
And then, of course, a woman come up to us and
518
00:26:55,874 --> 00:26:59,250
said, is he okay?
I think she assumed you were having heatstroke
519
00:26:59,282 --> 00:26:59,826
or something.
520
00:26:59,930 --> 00:27:00,906
Moshe: I mean, it was very hard.
521
00:27:00,930 --> 00:27:03,514
Leah: She was like, is he okay?
Mata is right there.
522
00:27:03,554 --> 00:27:05,174
The ambulance is right there.
523
00:27:05,754 --> 00:27:07,506
And I looked at her, and I said, actually, the
524
00:27:07,530 --> 00:27:08,626
ambulance is the problem.
525
00:27:08,730 --> 00:27:09,978
He's very sound sensitive.
526
00:27:10,026 --> 00:27:11,074
He'll be okay.
527
00:27:11,234 --> 00:27:15,218
And she left, which is another thing that I
528
00:27:15,226 --> 00:27:19,962
would like to say about the way a spouse of
somebody with autism can handle that.
529
00:27:20,138 --> 00:27:21,278
You should never.
530
00:27:21,426 --> 00:27:24,318
I mean, it is kind of an odd thing for people
531
00:27:24,366 --> 00:27:29,886
to see a 40 year old man having a meltdown,
and they'll always be concerned and they'll
532
00:27:29,910 --> 00:27:38,278
always inquire because it's not something that
they're used to, but not to behave like, stop
533
00:27:38,326 --> 00:27:38,558
that.
534
00:27:38,606 --> 00:27:39,574
You're embarrassing me.
535
00:27:39,614 --> 00:27:43,846
Don't you know this isn't the way to act?
Don't you know this isn't the way to be, you
536
00:27:43,870 --> 00:27:45,974
know, grow up.
537
00:27:46,054 --> 00:27:47,224
Stop reacting that way.
538
00:27:47,294 --> 00:27:47,596
I didn't.
539
00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:50,492
I was very calm, and it was very sweet, and I
540
00:27:50,508 --> 00:27:51,220
helped you through it.
541
00:27:51,252 --> 00:27:53,100
And I also just sort of shooed people away
542
00:27:53,132 --> 00:27:53,828
very nicely.
543
00:27:53,876 --> 00:27:56,092
And for me, I think, or for us, that's the
544
00:27:56,108 --> 00:27:57,384
best way to handle that.
545
00:27:58,124 --> 00:28:05,684
Moshe: Absolutely. And I'm really grateful for
it because, again, yes, I was absolutely not
546
00:28:05,724 --> 00:28:08,612
having a good day in terms of my autism.
547
00:28:08,788 --> 00:28:12,672
And I also was not in.
548
00:28:12,868 --> 00:28:21,792
And I was not able to handle the loud sirens
in that very enclosed space when normally I
549
00:28:21,808 --> 00:28:23,724
would have been like, oh, that's really loud.
550
00:28:24,904 --> 00:28:28,864
But also, I've never been one to request what
551
00:28:28,904 --> 00:28:33,616
I thought was unreasonable accommodations,
which is kind of the impetus for this episode
552
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,712
in general, because even at my worst, if
someone asks me, do you want to leave?
553
00:28:38,768 --> 00:28:41,218
Do you want to?
What can I do to help you?
554
00:28:41,346 --> 00:28:49,378
I'll say it's like I need to figure it out
because my disability should not affect other
555
00:28:49,426 --> 00:28:51,794
people's time, right?
556
00:28:51,834 --> 00:28:57,546
Leah: Because this comes between now we're
talking about autism versus personality, and
557
00:28:57,570 --> 00:29:01,298
your personality is as such, that you're not
the type of guy who would ever say, you know,
558
00:29:01,346 --> 00:29:04,354
stop those kids from having fun because it's
bothering me.
559
00:29:04,434 --> 00:29:04,914
Moshe: Right.
560
00:29:05,034 --> 00:29:06,946
Leah: And you absolutely didn't want me to do
that.
561
00:29:06,970 --> 00:29:11,430
And I realized as I was going over there that
that's what you would have wanted rather than
562
00:29:11,462 --> 00:29:12,714
what I was going to do.
563
00:29:14,294 --> 00:29:21,822
Moshe: Okay, so let's go on to some examples
of reasonable and unreasonable demands and
564
00:29:21,838 --> 00:29:22,654
accommodations.
565
00:29:22,814 --> 00:29:25,830
So some reasonable demands or accommodations
566
00:29:25,902 --> 00:29:27,114
in a relationship.
567
00:29:28,414 --> 00:29:31,550
So clear and explicit communication about
568
00:29:31,582 --> 00:29:34,194
needs, expectations, and boundaries from both
partners.
569
00:29:35,194 --> 00:29:40,654
Step by step instructions or visual aids for
tasks like household chores.
570
00:29:41,674 --> 00:29:48,810
It's the difference between I need you to wash
the dishes and, okay, so I need you to go all
571
00:29:48,842 --> 00:29:52,442
over the place and find all the dirty dishes.
572
00:29:52,578 --> 00:29:54,338
Then I need you to go into the sink, and I
573
00:29:54,346 --> 00:29:55,802
need you to wash the dishes.
574
00:29:55,938 --> 00:29:58,346
Then I need you to dry the dishes or put them
575
00:29:58,370 --> 00:29:59,314
in the dish rack.
576
00:29:59,434 --> 00:30:01,050
And then I need you to clean the sink
577
00:30:01,122 --> 00:30:03,894
afterwards to make sure that there's no crud
or food or whatever.
578
00:30:07,774 --> 00:30:13,046
Adjustments to lighting, sound, smells, other
sensory stimuli in your home environment
579
00:30:13,190 --> 00:30:14,354
specifically.
580
00:30:15,174 --> 00:30:19,030
And again, a lot of these are unreasonable
581
00:30:19,142 --> 00:30:20,366
outside of the home.
582
00:30:20,510 --> 00:30:23,526
It's the difference between when Leah is
583
00:30:23,550 --> 00:30:29,214
playing, like, a really loud song and I have
trouble thinking, and I asked her to just
584
00:30:29,254 --> 00:30:30,514
please turn it down.
585
00:30:31,234 --> 00:30:33,530
Or, for example, going into, like, a
586
00:30:33,562 --> 00:30:37,394
restaurant and having them shut the music off
or turn it down.
587
00:30:37,514 --> 00:30:44,282
Leah: It's really funny because I'm called
back to when we first went to Nanaimo and we
588
00:30:44,298 --> 00:30:46,970
went to that really fancy greek restaurant,
remember?
589
00:30:47,122 --> 00:30:52,338
And Avram was having sensory issues, and you
actually did ask them to turn the music down,
590
00:30:52,506 --> 00:30:55,822
and they did, because we spent a lot of money
there.
591
00:30:55,978 --> 00:31:01,742
But you don't always have that, I guess, that
influence.
592
00:31:01,838 --> 00:31:05,910
Or maybe you shouldn't always have that
influence, because ultimately what we didn't
593
00:31:05,942 --> 00:31:09,590
think of, we were having a great dinner and
our son was comfortable, but what we didn't
594
00:31:09,622 --> 00:31:13,950
think of was that maybe everyone else in the
restaurant wanted to hear the music, right.
595
00:31:14,022 --> 00:31:17,154
Moshe: And that was an example of us being
unreasonable.
596
00:31:18,014 --> 00:31:25,700
In reality, the solution to that was not to
just turn the music off or turn it down for an
597
00:31:25,732 --> 00:31:27,744
entire business establishment.
598
00:31:28,204 --> 00:31:31,204
It was to help aurum to tolerate what was
599
00:31:31,244 --> 00:31:32,064
going on.
600
00:31:32,404 --> 00:31:34,636
It's what occupational therapists do.
601
00:31:34,780 --> 00:31:39,824
It's not to end the situation, but to find a
ways to work through it.
602
00:31:40,844 --> 00:31:43,864
So these are specific to the home environment.
603
00:31:44,764 --> 00:31:46,380
Then there's patience and understanding.
604
00:31:46,412 --> 00:31:50,816
When sensory issues affect intimacy, for
example.
605
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,008
I'm really feeling overwhelmed right now.
606
00:31:53,056 --> 00:31:57,164
I don't really want to be too touchy feely.
607
00:31:57,504 --> 00:31:58,564
Maybe later.
608
00:31:59,064 --> 00:32:01,496
Willingness to find accommodation strategies
609
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,168
like, maybe I won't kiss you right now, but
can I hug you?
610
00:32:05,216 --> 00:32:05,896
Things like that.
611
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,616
Leah: I would like to point out that I think
that goes both ways, especially when the
612
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:15,612
neurotypical is female, because there's times
of the month where hormones are doing things
613
00:32:15,768 --> 00:32:17,300
where, okay, touch me all the time.
614
00:32:17,332 --> 00:32:18,516
Okay, don't really touch me now.
615
00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:19,420
I don't want to.
616
00:32:19,532 --> 00:32:19,924
Moshe: Right.
617
00:32:20,004 --> 00:32:22,428
Leah: So the accommodations do go both ways?
618
00:32:22,476 --> 00:32:23,500
Moshe: Absolutely.
619
00:32:23,692 --> 00:32:29,244
Leah: These are, these are seen that like,
autistics are not sexual or they don't want to
620
00:32:29,364 --> 00:32:34,652
touch you or hug you and, you know, no, we did
perfect.
621
00:32:34,788 --> 00:32:41,444
Moshe: We did a really good survey a couple of
episodes back where we discovered, in fact,
622
00:32:41,524 --> 00:32:48,816
that autistic and neurodivergent, I guess
young adults or teens very much, a lot of the
623
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:50,816
time, want that kind of intimacy.
624
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,804
You can listen to it on all podcasting sites.
625
00:32:54,384 --> 00:33:00,408
And if you sign in and you mark that you're
over 18 due to their standards, you can also
626
00:33:00,456 --> 00:33:01,804
listen to it on YouTube.
627
00:33:02,504 --> 00:33:04,776
So advance notice or preparation for changes
628
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:06,164
in routine or plans.
629
00:33:07,184 --> 00:33:08,604
Key issue there.
630
00:33:09,184 --> 00:33:12,688
Neurodivergents or autistics have a very
difficult time, a lot of the time.
631
00:33:12,856 --> 00:33:18,760
Not always because one autistic, but they have
a very difficult time with sudden changes to
632
00:33:18,792 --> 00:33:20,248
routine or plans.
633
00:33:20,376 --> 00:33:23,744
You kind of have to, it's akin, I guess, to
634
00:33:23,784 --> 00:33:28,960
just kind of gently getting into the water
versus just kind of diving into a cold pool.
635
00:33:29,032 --> 00:33:33,296
Leah: A good example is that Avraham thinks,
or thought he didn't have school tomorrow, and
Version: 20240731