Episode Title: Manipulation: Is it EVER Okay?

Episode Number: 22

Release Date: Aug 19, 2024

Duration: 01:04:32

Episode Summary: In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah explore the complex topic of manipulation. They discuss how manipulation occurs in neurodiverse and neurotypical relationships, the negative connotations associated with the word, and how it can sometimes be used for self-defense, particularly by neurodiverse individuals. The hosts also delve into the concept of gaslighting and its evolution from its original meaning.

Key Takeaways

  • The definition of manipulation: The hosts define manipulation as the act of influencing someone's thoughts or feelings to achieve a desired outcome.
  • The autistic tendency to be victims of manipulation: The episode explores how autistic individuals may be more susceptible to manipulation due to their tendency to believe people's words over their actions.
  • The difference between autism and narcissism: The hosts differentiate between autism, a neurological disorder, and narcissism, a mental health condition, highlighting the distinct origins and manifestations of each.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

  • The various forms of manipulation, including gaslighting and emotional abuse
  • The impact of manipulation on neurodiverse individuals
  • Strategies to combat gaslighting and manipulation

Quotes

  • "Manipulation is the influencing of a person's thoughts or feelings as a way of getting them to think or feel, a way that another person would want them to think or feel." - Moshe
  • "The autistic need to be right...if we're not right, then we're wrong. And if we're wrong, then we're broken." - Moshe
  • "The reality of the situation is if you're autistic, then you're autistic." - Moshe

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SEO Keywords: manipulation, gaslighting, autism, neurodiversity, neurotypical, relationships, communication, empathy, masking, self-preservation

Transcript:

[00:08] Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe and I'm autistic.

[00:10] Leah: I'm Leah and I'm boring. Welcome to the now, you know, one autistic podcast.

[00:16] Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect one autistic and one layout and don't necessarily reflect the entire autistic community.

[00:25] Leah: Let's get to it. Hi, Moshe.

[00:32] Moshe: Hi, Leah.

[00:33] Leah: How are you today, honey?

[00:34] Moshe: I'm well, thank you.

[00:36] Leah: So today we're doing, we're going back to the old school formula where we just talk to each other about a topic.

[00:42] Moshe: Yeah, it's so lonesome, just the two of us. We've had some amazing guests over the last few weeks, and we'll have some amazing guests in the next few weeks, but we're going back to the old format and just being you and me all on our own, alone.

[00:58] Leah: This is a topic that we brought up right from the beginning, actually, this.

[01:03] Moshe: Is one of our first topics when we were brainstorming at the preconception of the podcast.

[01:08] Leah: And as all the other topics, this one turned out to be also very dense. So today we're talking about manipulation.

[01:14] Moshe: Yeah. So manipulation was one of the things that we talked about in terms of the topic of communication. We were talking about how manipulation happens in neurodiverse and neurotypical relationships. And when you hear the word manipulation, it certainly invokes a few feelings and thoughts.

[01:36] Leah: I suppose the first thought would be negative, right? That manipulation is negative. And a lot of times it is. It can be absolutely. One person using emotional tactics or even physical tactics to get something over on another person. Sometimes it's not bad, though, like, for example, manipulating your kids into being successful, for sure.

[01:56] Moshe: And manipulation itself has a negative sound to it, but it's not always done with malicious intentions. It's often done, especially in the case of neurodiverse people, as a form of self defense.

[02:12] Leah: Right. So I think basically what we hope to cover is how autistics can also be manipulative, but how much is it with their knowledge or not their knowledge? So a lot of people have this viewpoint of autistics that they're innocent and they don't know ever what doing, and that's not always the case. And how neurotypical people can be manipulative, and how autistics are particularly vulnerable to being manipulated. And it's especially bad if it's by someone who doesn't have the best of intentions.

[02:40] Moshe: Absolutely.

[02:41] Leah: And just manipulation, I guess, in general. So what would be your personal definition of the word manipulation?

[02:48] Moshe: So manipulation is the influencing of a person's thoughts or feelings as a way of getting them to think or feel, a way that another person would want them to think or feel.

[03:02] Leah: Right. And the result would be. Or the desired result would be.

[03:06] Moshe: The desired result would be that the person would do or act or feel in the way that the other person would want them to do or feel or act.

[03:16] Leah: So your first feeling when you hear the word manipulation is one person controlling another person.

[03:21] Moshe: It's a way of controlling a person. In certain instances, it can be a way of abusing a person. It's a way of essentially asserting some sort of dominance over another person.

[03:34] Leah: When I hear manipulation, I do think of that as well. But I also think about the basic definitions of manipulation, like manipulating a baby's fingers and toes so that they have better movements, or manipulating numbers to solve, you know, complex equations, or manipulating your child by giving them a reward when they do what they're supposed to do. Those also are manipulations. Manipulation just means working something in the way that you want to.

[03:59] Moshe: Yeah. So influencing something to do something, basically.

[04:03] Leah: Exactly. But the majority of people will see your definition of manipulation, I think, because that's the.

[04:09] Moshe: That's the definition that people think of, especially in the form of emotional manipulation or mental manipulation, or really any kind of manipulation. Now, we did do an episode, a few episodes back on the subject of abuse. And manipulation was mentioned as a form of abuse as it relates to something called gaslighting or emotional abuse. Because when you have someone that maybe they don't have the best of intentions, they can use manipulation and gaslighting, verbal domination to assert themselves over the other person and essentially take some of the power, some of the autonomy away from.

[04:54] Leah: Someone else, or sometimes most or all of it.

[04:56] Moshe: Yeah.

[04:57] Leah: Today, we're going to take a deeper dive into those concepts. We are going to discuss gaslighting as well, because you and I really broke down gaslighting today, and we realized that it's so overused that it doesn't necessarily mean what it originally meant when it was coined.

[05:10] Moshe: Actual term gaslighting refers to the actual gas lighting, the way that they used to have the lamps that were operated through gas. And then the gas would be reduced gradually to the extent that you could control how bright or how dark it is. And in a way, you can sort of make the person believe that what they see is not necessarily what they see, and you can effectively leave them in the dark while convincing them that they were always in the dark. Because the concept that there was, you know, light at all was sort of all in their heads.

[05:47] Leah: I like that definition. So let's talk about autistics tendency to be the victim of manipulation. The first thing that I have here is that autistics seem to have a tendency to believe people's words over their actions. And through my research, I know this is true of you, but through my research, I found that it's a very common thread, if not universal, that an autistic person will take somebody's word for things and not necessarily notice or take into account their actions. So an example I gave you earlier is, I'm your best friend. Somebody will say, I'm your best friend, and then they'll never call you or hang out with you, right?

[06:21] Moshe: And when you do research on the different ways that autism and other forms of neurodiversity present itself. And I keep bringing up the genetic condition of Williams syndrome, which operates in a lot of the same ways as autism does. And I was watching a video a little while ago, and the parent of a child with Williams syndrome essentially said she doesn't understand the concept of lying. She doesn't have any kind of an instinct for self preservation, because she believes that why would anyone ever be bad? Why would anyone ever hurt me? Why would anyone ever say something to me that was not true?

[07:02] Leah: Whereas we've really drilled down on and discussed many times at this point, that's not necessarily true for an autistic, especially an adult autistic, because they do have somewhat of a self preservation, sometimes self preservation to the exclusion of other people feeling. And they do understand lying and they do understand deception, but they don't use it in the same way that a neurotypical might necessarily use it. They use it as kind of a smokescreen versus trying to get something that they want, like, just don't notice that I'm different kind of thing, right?

[07:33] Moshe: And the older a person is, especially if they're spending the majority of their life, or the majority of their childhood, adolescence and young adulthood, at least without a diagnosis, without an understanding that they are, in fact, autistic, you end up exposing yourself a great deal to the world at large, which is, as we discussed in many of our previous episodes, not really made for people like me and our son Avram, because with a few exceptions, and I mean, we are talking predominantly of the US, Canada, UK, like the western culture here in Israel, it could be a little bit different, and in other countries, it's going to be different still. But when we talk about how the world is not made for neurodivergence, it's because when you are in a mall. We'll use the example of the National Autism Society video that we saw the other day where you're in a mall and there's a lot of different sensitivities that come up. There's loud noises, there's bright lights. There's a lot of different people kind of coming and going. A lot of people that are in your face are not respecting your sphere, your personal space. And it can cause a lot of overwhelming, and it can lead to things like meltdowns and cringing and expressing yourself in ways that differ from the norm. And you look at this child that's in a public setting who's having a meltdown or who is covering their ears or is expressing themselves in a way that brings your attention to them, and you're thinking to yourself, well, what's wrong with them? Why are they acting that way? What's the parent doing? And when you get older, especially if you don't have a diagnosis, you develop sort of an armor around yourself where you cling very tightly. And I know I did this. You cling very tightly to self preservation. I am always being singled out as different. I am always being singled out as disruptive. I'm always being singled out as in some way wrong. So I'm going to hold on to my rightness because it's the only way that I can maintain my self esteem.

[09:42] Leah: Basically, that makes sense.

[09:44] Moshe: And so what that translates into, as we discussed in the previous episodes, is the autistic need to be right. Because if we're not right, then we're wrong. And if we're wrong, then we're broken. And if we're broken, then we have.

[09:56] Leah: No worth which to the neurotypical party in your relationship, can look exactly like gaslighting, gaslighting manipulation.

[10:03] Moshe: And you end up in this situation, as you've encountered with me and as we've encountered with Avram, where when you call out something that, to the average observer would be blatantly obvious, and they cling to this illogical sense of correctness, you tell someone, you, you said this thing, and then they go, no, I didn't. And there's witnesses, and there are people who genuinely care about the person go, no, you absolutely did. And it was hurtful to me. And then they'll sort of, they'll hold on to that and say, no, I didn't. You're just saying that because of this, or you're just saying that because of that, or Avram started with the, my brain thinks this, so I must be right. Or my brain told me to say this, so it must be that way, or that's how I perceive things. Like you said it.

[10:49] Leah: Yeah, we were talking this afternoon. I said, if not everybody can see it, it doesn't necessarily mean it's not true. But you might want to entertain the concept that it may not be true if you're the only one who could see it. And other people who you trust are telling you this is not the case. Again, sometimes it is the case where only one person can perceive something, but it's much more likely that you should entertain the idea that maybe it's not true.

[11:12] Moshe: And you've done a lot of work on me. I say a lot of work on me, like, I'm. Like I'm a trained animal. But in the sense, you've really shown me the concept of being wrong and that being acceptable. Like, it doesn't necessarily affect my self esteem or my sense of suitability for being a spouse and a father and a person when I say a thing, and then it turns out that I'm wrong about that, and I admit that I'm wrong, and you accept that I admitted that I was wrong, and the world doesn't come crashing to a halt, and my self worth is still maintained, and then we can present that to the children.

[11:52] Leah: Right? Nothing bad happens. And, no, I'm seeing. You mentioned also the gender difference. It's very hard for men in general to admit that they're wrong and then having the autism on top of it. And I am seeing that gender difference in Raya and Abram as well. Raya sort of goes into every situation, basically assuming that she's wrong. And he will try to bend the physical reality to make a case that he's right. And you very much were like that, even as a grown adult for a while until it was like, I can't take this anymore. I'm not living in pretend land. We have to at least strike a balance.

[12:27] Moshe: Right? And you listed one of the topics down the road when we came to communication as, you know, autistic or just a mandeh. And it really is.

[12:39] Leah: I mean, both.

[12:41] Moshe: It can be.

[12:41] Leah: It's a compound problem.

[12:43] Moshe: It absolutely can be. But the stereotype, not necessarily undeserved, is that they say that, what was it? The hardest three words for a man to say is, I am wrong, or something like that.

[12:55] Leah: I'm sorry. I don't remember, but I'm sorry.

[12:57] Moshe: Or I'm wrong or something like that. And essentially, when you compound that with the autistic need to be right, especially when you're, we discussed in the past the idea that in an ideal world, you have a child who turns out to be autistic, and you get an early diagnosis, which is amazing, and you get early support services, speech therapy, occupational therapy, all the things. They have a whole network built around them at school. If they're fortunate enough to be in a special class where their needs are met, maybe they have a support worker. You, you show all the love, all the support, all the acceptance, all the understanding. But this isn't the Truman show, right? Like, we don't live in a world that's manufactured.

[13:39] Leah: It's not made for you. So you continuously get this messaging that you're wrong, so you're continuously trying to adjust so that you're not so wrong.

[13:47] Moshe: Exactly.

[13:48] Leah: Preserve yourself. So what I wanted to point out, because Moshe is really putting himself up on, you know, as a sacrificial person right now.

[13:55] Moshe: Right.

[13:56] Leah: What I wanted to point out is that a lot of people could assume this is for nefarious purposes or calculated, and it's not. It's often literally just a shame response, and they don't even necessarily know they're doing it. And it's certainly not to manipulate, well, it is to manipulate you, but not for the reason you think. We're just gaining anything. They just want you to love them and accept.

[14:14] Moshe: Right. We discussed the, the very mechanics of the very specific autism autistic form of gaslighting, which is, I am a certain way. I know that I'm a certain way, or maybe I don't. Or maybe I know that I'm probably going to be a certain way, but I might not know the nuance of all the ways that I could be. And I want to be with someone like Leah who is amazing and smart and funny and intelligent and capable, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I know that me, the way that I am, is unlikely to ever get someone like Leia because once she realizes that I am developmentally delayed, and I struggle with understanding nuance, and I struggle with verbal communication, and I even struggle with nonverbal communication, and I struggle with keeping track of tasks and routines. And I'm very rigid in my feelings because I'm aware of these things. And I'm probably not even aware of a whole slew of other things I'm going to have to mask to be the kind of person that I think Leah wants me to be, because that's the kind of person that I feel I should be based on the world at large, telling me, at least in my own mind, how I'm supposed to behave.

[15:29] Leah: That is an entire topic that I do want to discuss later. And it's very common among women, especially in my group, who are the neurotypical party to a neurodiverse relationship. Is that their husband, boyfriend, or whoever it is, was a superhuman. Best lover, best mandehead, best father, best provider, best worker, best everything when they first got together. And she just doesn't understand why all of that fell away and she feels deceived. And for quite some time I also felt that way. But we worked through it, and the only way to work through that, honestly, is really uncomfortable honesty, like down to the bare basic, rip it all down to the foundation, and everybody has to be uncomfortably honest at that point.

[16:15] Moshe: I just want to take a moment here to discuss something that has come up this past week. It is relating to the topic that we're discussing today, but I just want to put it out there now. You know, an autistic podcast is unique in that we have a autistic fully diagnosed and everything, got the paperwork and whatnot. Who is speaking out against other autistic?

[16:36] Leah: Not always. Sometimes you're supportive of them.

[16:39] Moshe: I can be. And I. And I absolutely amen. And you are a neurotypical who is in a relationship with me. And you have tried, to the extent that you are capable, to go above and beyond in understanding, sometimes more than I do, about what neurodiversity results in.

[16:55] Leah: I feel like that's normal because if you show certain characteristics that make you uncomfortable, you're more likely to cringe at other people who show those characteristics.

[17:02] Moshe: And that's another thing entirely. But it's very interesting because we did watch a lot of videos in doing research on this and other topics, and not to call out all of my fellow autistics who want to be creators and influencers. I've watched many, many different people. I'm not going to mention names for their own privacy and just to avoid offending anyone. But what I've seen, unfortunately, quite a bit in the case of autistic creators, is they present their perspective of the world and how things work in a this is who we are, get used to it type of thing, or even toning it down a little bit. This is who we are. We know that we're difficult, but maybe if you understood us better, you would understand why we do the things that we do, right?

[17:48] Leah: And that's a lack of understanding of how much we're actually willing to understand you. But you sort of hiding and not trusting the people in your life enough to be fully honest with them.

[17:58] Moshe: And I feel like what we're presenting, and it's what makes our podcast unique, at least from my perspective, is that you do have an autistic here. Me. And again, I'm one of them, in.

[18:09] Leah: Case you weren't aware.

[18:10] Moshe: Yes, I'm autistic. Did you know we haven't done that bit in a while? I think we stopped it in the second episode. So you have an autistic person here who is saying, yes, I'm autistic. Yes, I struggle with communication. Yes, I have very specific needs. Yes, I'm going to use the d word now. Yes, I'm disabled. I know a lot of autistics don't like to use that word, but I am.

[18:31] Leah: Oh, for sure.

[18:32] Moshe: And I'm also going to acknowledge that while a lot of the challenges that I have are going to require people to understand how I am and accommodate me in certain respects, I can also see the other perspective and say, you know what? I had a lot of behaviors that were actually not healthy. And learning to accommodate neurotypicals, gasp, is beneficial because if you live in a world where you expect accommodation but you're not prepared to accommodate others, then you're going to struggle to be in relationships.

[19:07] Leah: But I have to step in and I have to point out that it has to be mutual.

[19:10] Moshe: It does. Absolutely.

[19:11] Leah: So you're not going to feel comfortable with me if I call you out and laugh at you every time you make a mistake, which you do often because you're autistic and ADHD and you, your wires in your brain gets crossed all the time. Exactly. I have to accommodate that. Like, it's both ways. It's sort of in the middle. And that brings me to, you didn't want to name names, but I do. There's a creator on YouTube. His name is Thomas Henley. He's autistic. And he also has a really very good balanced view of autistic versus neurotypical relationships. If you want to check him out, go ahead and do that. We'll put him in the show notes. And you should probably message him before too many people listen to this because I didn't message him.

[19:47] Moshe: We haven't messaged Thomas Henley. We've listened to a lot of his videos. He is a influencer, he is a model. He seems like a really nice guy.

[19:56] Leah: And firmly in the camp of autistics are just human beings.

[20:00] Moshe: Right. And I do want to actually reach out to Thomas and invite him to come on the podcast, because I'm sure we could have a wonderful talk if he could make the time for us. If not, that's okay. But just know, Thomas, that we really do appreciate your work and your advocacy. And a lot of the things that you have talked about on your channel have influenced our understanding of a lot of the different concepts that we're going.

[20:23] Leah: To talk about today, about manipulation in our future. Because I think he's had some very difficult relationships. But on both ends, he admits that he was the one that was difficult sometimes, etcetera, etcetera. So I'm going to come back to my original point, which I'm going to drill deep down on, and might have seem like I'm calling you out on it, but I really just want for people to understand you and many other autistics have a tendency to believe people's words over actions. When does your knowledge self preservation theory of mind kick in enough to say, hey, their behavior is really not matching what they're saying, and for you to sort of start to clue in to the fact that they don't mean what they're saying, or does that never happen? Do you always need somebody to sort of explain that to you?

[21:04] Moshe: Well, I'm going to sort of self own myself here. I had a very significant deficit in understanding a person's ulterior motives, to the point that until quite recently in my life, actually, I took everyone, or nearly everyone at their word and I allowed them to influence me in romantic relationships, in friendship, in acquaintanceships, in co worker relationship, in every relationship.

[21:34] Leah: But why do you think that is? Do you think it was because you had such a deficit in reading people's body language and behavior so that all you had was the ability to understand their words? Or do you think there was like voluntary ignorance there for self protection?

[21:50] Moshe: If you asked me about five or ten years ago, I would tell you that at my core, I believe that everybody is good and honest and altruistic, and everyone, with very few exceptions, should be taken literally. If a person tells you that they're going to keep their word, then they are. If a person tells you that they mean well, then they do. If a person asks you for help and asks you to help them, be it financial or through labor or through some other form of assistance, then they do. Because back to what I was saying a few moments ago, why would a person, when I was discussing Williams syndrome and the lack of self defense, why would a person say something and not mean it? Why would a person consciously decide to.

[22:39] Leah: Lie but from my perspective, and this is what was really hard for me to swallow, is that you have met so many people in your life who have shown you differently. More than I have, actually. I've been blessed to know some really pretty great people and also have some self defense, emotional self defense. I mean, but you've met so many people in your life that went out of their way to show you differently. So why do you feel that you didn't clue in?

[23:03] Moshe: Because for the most part, there was a great deal of gaslighting happening. There were a lot of these people who manipulated me and took advantage of me, would put up, you know, the bare minimum in terms of being a good friend or being a receptive coworker. They would listen to me. We discussed earlier about the myth of reciprocity in all relationships. So they would say, hey, let me buy you lunch. Oh, and also, my credit card bill is, like, $5,000. Could you maybe help me out with that? This month I'll pay back a roommate that I once had who literally stole $8,000 from me and fled the city and in Canada. Fled the province, went from Atlantic Canada to British Columbia. If you know Canada, literally from one end of the country to the other, he literally fled the province, converted the money that he had taken from me into gas carts so that it would be untraceable, essentially. And then when I called him out and even contacted his parents, I heard nothing. And then, like, a year or two later, he gave me an apology and then asked to borrow more money. And of course, I said, sure, no problem. I accept your apology. We all make mistakes. And I told this to you and to other people, and they said, oh, my gosh, you are so naive. If someone stole $8,000 and fled the province, I don't care what kind of apology they give you. You're not going to lend them more money.

[24:35] Leah: Come on. So naive was a big struggle for you. That word was basically not allowed in my vocabulary for the first couple of years that we were together, because you would not admit to yourself that you were naive in lieu of just believing the best of people. And your situation really didn't improve until you sort of admitted that you kind of were naive.

[24:54] Moshe: Right? Because this was a result of yet more manipulation that was done to me, where people used the fact that I did very tenuously cling to my self confidence as a way of justifying me being a better person. And this is constantly what I was told whenever I was wrong or whenever I was mistaken or whenever I sort of started speaking up for myself. It was like, you don't want to be a difficult, do you? You don't want to be mean. Why can't we just both agree that you need to understand my perspective more? Of course you would say something like that. That's exactly the kind of thing that a bad person would say. You don't want to be bad, do you?

[25:44] Leah: Exactly. So in your mind, you were just being like an altruistic person, but to everyone else, you were absolutely, insanely just naive.

[25:53] Moshe: Very naive. Yeah.

[25:54] Leah: So that comes around to gaslighting, actually. So the definition of gaslighting that we're going to use is, I guess, what it's become, which is essentially convincing somebody to replace your reality for their own. Like, I reject your reality and replace it with my own. So you go up to somebody and say, you know, I don't think I want to be in a relationship with you anymore. And they go, you don't mean that. Of course you do. That's just silly. Don't be stupid. You love me. And then you go, well, maybe I do love them. And that keeps you in that relationship. So that's an example, I guess, of the gaslighting. Do you have a different example now.

[26:29] Moshe: We talked about the different forms of gaslighting in terms of whether you're autistic or whether you're neurotypical. Because gaslighting can be done with very malicious means, and it can be done with not malicious, but ignorant or naive.

[26:45] Leah: Yeah, sort of like a clueless intent.

[26:47] Moshe: You know, the person who cluelessly does or says the wrong thing. And we discussed how sometimes one of the kids can be like, I'm going to say something really hurtful to you. And then when you're upset, you're like, I don't know what I did. I don't know why. I don't know what was.

[27:04] Leah: You used that one for way too long as well. And it became evident that you did know what you did. You just weren't making the effort to not.

[27:12] Moshe: Because a certain point, I only had one script and all of my behaviors were really based on, this is the only way I know how to be. So the only way that I can continue in this relationship is to get you to accept that this is just normal. And that is not malicious, but it is toxic in the sense that when you are neurodiverse and you are unfortunately undiagnosed and have lived your life with this sense of self preservation, you can believe that you are doing it for altruistic means. But in or reasons, but in fact, you're doing it because it's kind of like you're an imposter. It's going to come across as very controversial. But I'll say it anyway. All autistic people, for the most part, are delusional because they exist in a world, especially if they're adult autistic psychopathy.

[28:04] Leah: You're talking about like a self created world where the things that you do and feel that don't necessarily make sense are made to make sense.

[28:13] Moshe: Yeah. No, I'm not saying that autism is like mental illness where you've lost grip of reality because that's genuine delusion. But what I'm talking about is when. When you have self focused enough to the extent, especially, again, and I'm talking about adult autistics quite a bit. Because if you've lived your whole life knowing, number one, that you're autistic, and number two, that some of your behaviors are not, you know, healthy, then maybe you've gotten help with communicating and sharing and understanding, and maybe you've even developed a sense of empathy. But if you've spent your whole life essentially with no help, no diagnosis, no therapy, and it's all self preservation, self denial, you exist in a delusion where the only way that you can function is if you surround yourself with this illusion that you are right, you do make sense. The things you do have to make sense because nobody in their right mind wants to go through life making mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake after mistake.

[29:11] Leah: So you did it for a reason.

[29:13] Moshe: So I would constantly fail, but it was okay because I was trying, or.

[29:17] Leah: It was okay because you didn't really want that thing anyway?

[29:19] Moshe: I didn't really want it.

[29:20] Leah: Lie.

[29:21] Moshe: It's like, it's fine. I didn't really like, you know what? That place that I lost, that apartment that I got evicted from, really wanted. I didn't really want it. It was a bad area anyway. You know what? We're gonna do better next time. And if you don't believe that I'm capable of doing better, then that's your fault, because it doesn't matter that I failed ten times in a row. If you still believe that I won't fail the 11th time, then you must be the one with the problem. And you surround yourself with these comfortable, secure lies, we'll call them what they are, lies, so that you can continue to function. And that leads itself to the very cringe worthy concept of. I heard it said in a video that we watched where the mask is so thorough that it's like it's become a part of your face also.

[30:08] Leah: You're even masking against yourself at this point, right?

[30:11] Moshe: Because you see these autistics, and God bless you, you'll say with all the sincereness in your heart, I don't even think that I look or act autistic anymore. A lot of people can't even tell that I am autistic. And I'm watching that going, oh, honey.

[30:29] Leah: It'S not the truth. It's that they either don't care enough or they're not educated enough to see it. But you can see it and I.

[30:34] Moshe: Can see it, because the reality of the situation is if you're autistic, then you're autistic. And there are a lot of people that are autistic that maybe they act in ways that are not immediately noticeable. A lot of my level two and level three community members know what I'm talking about, and that's nothing to do with them. That's not a fault of theirs. It's just different levels of care are more obvious than lesser levels of care. And if you have in your tool belt or in your viewpoint, these snippets of time where you're watching this autistic go through the motions of living their life and you're not paying, like, a lot of attention, you know? You know what?

[31:17] Leah: I don't even, I don't see it.

[31:18] Moshe: I don't even see it. But then when you spend, like, a lot of time with, you go, oh, that's that. That's where that is.

[31:24] Leah: And I think I admitted that to you today, too. Is that a lot of our problem at first was that I didn't know what an adult autistic looked like.

[31:31] Moshe: Right.

[31:31] Leah: I had a son who was autistic that I had been working with since he was very small, but I didn't know what an adult autistic necessarily would look like.

[31:40] Moshe: Right. And when that behavior becomes more obvious, especially if you're not really sure what you're looking at, that leads me to once again plug the episode that we did on the uncanny valley of autism. Because if you're not aware that the person you're interacting with is autistic, then the best that you can come up with is there's something not quite right. And this is what I've gotten for a lot of my life. What's wrong with him is what's wrong with him. Like, I don't know what's wrong, but something wrong with something is wrong with.

[32:12] Leah: Like, there's something going on, and your husband's really nice, but is there something wrong with him?

[32:17] Moshe: Yeah. And they throw out the r word, is he? You know that? And you go like, oh, no, no. I mean. I mean, maybe a little.

[32:24] Leah: No, I mean, I. Maybe we use that in our household as a term of affection, but it's offensive to other people.

[32:29] Moshe: It is offensive, and we won't use it. And I try, to the extent that I can, to not use it because it lends itself to a certain understanding, a certain designation, and it's unfortunate. But essentially, back to the topic at hand. When you are so thoroughly used to operating in a certain way that you have adapted your current life circumstances as just the way things are, then essentially you have people in your life that either are not that intimately involved with you, so they don't mention it, or they just don't care.

[33:05] Leah: They don't have to care.

[33:06] Moshe: There's something wrong with him, but I don't know what it is. And honestly, I don't want to get into it. So I'm just going to let him go about his life. And, you know, whatever happens, happens, I.

[33:14] Leah: Guess they don't have to care. So gaslighting, in an attempt to prevent yourself from being gaslit by me, which I wasn't even trying to do, nor was I doing, I ended up feeling gaslit by you right now. Whether the intention is there or not. Right. So there's two different schools of thought here. Is that an autistic will gaslight you by omission. So they're not doing it for a bad reason. They don't even necessarily know what they're doing. It's just an omission of thinking about your part in the situation. Whereas, like, a narcissist or a psychopath will gaslight you with intentions and knowledge.

[33:47] Moshe: I mentioned it was like self preservation.

[33:49] Leah: So regardless of the way or the route, it's still hurtful because I spent a lot of the first couple of years of us together feeling totally gaslit.

[33:57] Moshe: Absolutely.

[33:57] Leah: No, this is not right. Like, this can't be right. So regardless of where it comes from and what type of gaslighting it is, let's discuss some ways that you can combat gaslighting. Whether you're an autistic person being manipulated by someone or whether you are a neurotypical feeling gaslit by what isn't necessarily an attempt to gaslight you, but has the same effect. So the first would be to ask for clarity. That is the number one thing that you need, but that requires for everybody to be honest. And when you're so highly masked that you're basically gaslighting yourself, that is a long drill down.

[34:32] Moshe: Right. Because once you develop the mask and developed the bubble or developed the little sphere that you've built around yourself where everything is exactly the way it should be and everything is normal and all the behaviors are fine, then the first step is admitting. Is the. Is the autistic person. And we're talking specifically about, you know, someone who's autistic, admitting that their behavior is not healthy, it's not useful, it's not good in the relationship. The other person is being hurt. And you are wrong. You are just plain wrong. It doesn't have to be a thing, but it absolutely should be a thing. Because if you are trying to tell me every single day that that blue picture over there is gray, and I'm telling you it's, it's, it's blue. And you're like, no, it's gray, then at some point you have, and this is a very mild example, but at some point you have to say, hey, I need you to understand that that picture is blue. And I know that you might think that it's gray, but you have to consider, as you mentioned earlier, the possibility that you could be wrong.

[35:36] Leah: Right. And the next thing, not accepting word salad. What do I mean by word salad? A lot of people do this like politicians do this. Your manager at work, you know, HR might do this where they just say a bunch of buzzwords and hope that it makes the problem go away. When you're working on your relationship, especially cutting through a gaslighting situation, you cannot accept a word salad response for something.

[35:57] Moshe: Right. Because you, you end up in this situation where essentially you are trying to discuss a very real topic or a very serious topic or a topic that you are personally affected by. And all you're getting is, well, the thing is this and that and the other thing. And what about that?

[36:11] Leah: You can't see the force, whatever.

[36:12] Moshe: Trees. And because of the way that the.

[36:16] Leah: Lights in the hand is worth one.

[36:17] Moshe: In the book coming in through the window. And it's just, it's casting a light. And in a certain way. And I didn't have my coffee and there was, there was food that I didn't sit well with. There's a lot of different things. They're just kind of throwing things at the wall and hoping, you know, if I say enough words that eventually maybe the person will go, oh, that's it.

[36:36] Leah: And both neurotypicals and autistic.

[36:38] Moshe: Oh, absolutely. This is not unique to autistic, but you end up with a lot of meandering concepts with no real connections.

[36:46] Leah: Avram is firmly in that mode right now and it really annoys us. We're trying to break him of that.

[36:51] Moshe: So you have to be like, okay, I need you to stop talking for a minute. That thing over there is blue. And I need you to explain to me why you feel it's not with like actual tangible like, concepts.

[37:04] Leah: You have to be like, you have ten words. Go.

[37:07] Moshe: Right?

[37:07] Leah: And I've used this on YouTube and you hated it at first. I'm like, you have five minutes. Explain.

[37:11] Moshe: Right? And if you can't, why are you.

[37:13] Leah: Putting a limit on me? Well, because I've spoken to you for 3 hours before and you still say ludicrous things, right?

[37:19] Moshe: So if you can't explain your point, if you can't at least make some sense of your, your position and provide actual like evidence beyond just random words, then you have to accept the possibility or even the probability that you might be wrong.

[37:37] Leah: Right? And if it gets to an intermediate problem where you can't work it out between you two or three or four or whoever's in, you know, the relationship or family, get advice from an impartial third party a lot of time. That's a therapist or somebody who doesn't have an emotional stake in the situation, right?

[37:52] Moshe: Mutual friend will also work, someone who's very close to both of you.

[37:56] Leah: When it gets really bad, you're moving into the sort of gathering evidence to use against the abuser. Truly horrible people will never take, you know, responsibility for their actions or change. So that's when you sort of start to make your exit strategy, right?

[38:10] Moshe: And at this point we're really talking more about when there is, as the therapists like to say, a total breakdown in communication, right?

[38:19] Leah: Nobody's giving in. Nobody wants to work things through. You go to see a therapist, which on the surface you refuse to do, and your reasoning was actually because they're just going to blame me anyway. So somewhere deep inside you, you knew that you were a big part of the problem, but you weren't admitting it. So that required for us to work double and triple time on our own relationship because we didn't want to seek therapy, which might have expedited things, but maybe not. But if even therapy doesn't work, and I've experienced this in a previous relationship, where the therapist just looks at you and goes, leave, then maybe you need to listen to that. If things have gone off the rail.

[38:52] Moshe: Because the first step, I would say the first step to resolving any disagreement, whether we're talking about manipulation or just an overall inability to reconcile your differences. And there's that. That buzzword again, irreconcilable differences.

[39:08] Leah: I mean, it's a reason for divorce. It's got to be a opinion.

[39:11] Moshe: And it really starts with listening, because whether you're neurodivergent and you have no idea what's going on or not, and I'll say from experience, and I can say now that I'm far enough away from it, that my stance was, I know that I'm not wrong. I just can't explain why I'm not wrong, and that itself should tell me that I'm wrong. So, essentially, if you're at a point where you are, it is more important to you to not be wrong than it is to understand the reasons why you might be, then you're not in a place of health in your relationship. Because everything starts with listening. Even if you are 99.9% sure that you are right about this, this is when you want to stop and go, okay, I want you to explain to me why you feel that I'm wrong about this, and I'll listen to you and I'll actually take what you say in and weigh it, because I'm genuinely feeling that I'm not wrong. But I want to hear your perspective on this.

[40:09] Leah: Right? And, I mean, I've said that to you more than not. I'm absolutely not. I think if not patient, but then I lose my patience to the point where, like you said, I'll be like, you need to tell me right now why this isn't blue, or else this conversation is over.

[40:21] Moshe: Exactly.

[40:21] Leah: But that takes two or three shots before I get there.

[40:24] Moshe: You have to break it down. You had to really kind of demonstrate to me, number one, that it was okay for me to be wrong, and also that me being wrong did not end our relationship.

[40:35] Leah: Of course not. So a good rule of thumb for both autistics and non autistics alike is if you are feeling in a relationship fear. And this is not just romantic relationships, parent, child, boss, you know, worker friend, best friend, somebody you're dating, if you feel fear, obligation, and guilt a lot of the time. So, for example, you don't want to do something, but you're afraid how the person will react. If you don't really want to do something, but you feel obliged to do it, or they make you just feel so guilty when you can't come through for them, you might be being manipulated. And you might want to look at that.

[41:08] Moshe: Absolutely. I want to take a minute here just to break away before we get into the latter part of the episode, to once again refer you to our Facebook page. Now, you know when autistic is the Facebook username Instagram, it's the same thing. Now, you know when autistic, we're posting regularly there about new episodes. Sometimes we're posting pictures of our family. If you go to nowyouknowenautistic dot podbean.com, you can subscribe to the podcast. There's a link to donate through PayPal. There's a link to join through Patreon. We haven't really put anything on Patreon yet, but if you are interested in becoming a monthly member or even a one time member and you want to give us some money, we'd be open to discussing some rewards for you. And honestly, if you don't want to give us a centennial, just listen to the ads. I know a lot of ads are being picked up on the podcast. They're usually 1330 45 seconds. They're not long ads. If you take the time to listen to them, you're basically like donating a few cents to us anyway. So that's a great way to help us without, you know, reaching into your own pocket.

[42:14] Leah: And of course, as always, like subscribe share. Because the reason why we're doing it in the first place is to sort of spread the knowledge that we've had, feel that we've gained from being in this situation.

[42:24] Moshe: This is a lot of fun for us, but obviously it would also be fun if we could make a living out of it. So absolutely listen to the ads. If you feel that this episode or any of our past episodes would be of interest to any of your friends, family members, co workers, or really anyone, share, share, share, share on the podbean page as well as all other podcasting sites like Apple Podcasts, Spotify, podcast Addict Listen, notes, whatever you listen to this on, you could like, you can comment. It helps boost the podcast in the list of shows. We really would love to be the number one autism based podcast around. I know it's a lofty goal, but I've never not been ambitious. And as always, thank you very much for listening to this episode and all previous episodes. Please feel free to write us if you have any questions, comments, concerns, queries, conundrums, or contact us at nowyou know onautistic.com. if you want to sponsor a show by having us test your products or by giving us some money. So we mentioned that the show is sponsored by you. You can email us if you want to be a guest on the show because you feel like you want to talk to us, you can go ahead and write us and say, hey, I'd like to appear on the show. We'll talk to you. And, you know, just, just keep following us and helping us do what we do. Now back to our regularly scheduled program.

[43:44] Leah: All right, so I want to talk about this phenomenon that I didn't know existed, but I did some research into this week, which is people will often have one of two viewpoints of an autistic person, especially an autistic adult. One is that they are so innocent and so clueless that they're angelic, you know, people who can't do anything wrong ever. They can't lie ever. They can't hurt anybody ever. They're just sort of sit there and be angels all the time. And that is actually unhealthy because that comes from infantilizing full grown adults.

[44:15] Moshe: Absolutely.

[44:16] Leah: And the other viewpoint, or the opposite of that, is that because autistics struggle with empathy of certain types, not all types, apparently. They are narcissists and they're awful and everything they do is selfish and bad. And these are apparently two viewpoints that are quite common. I wasn't aware of them. But the truth of the matter is that it lies a little bit somewhere in the middle, especially when you're an adult, because you're an adult with all that comes along with, as well as an autistic with all that comes along with, as well as just a person with all that comes along with and a dad and a husband and this and that. So I want to discuss real quick the difference between autism and narcissism, like the hard science behind it. So narcissism is a mental health issue. It's developed through being in an abusive relationship or being exposed to other people who are narcissists and learning the wrong way to behave. Whereas autism is a neurological health disorder. So the brain is impacted before birth, at birth, and during development. And those are two completely different origins of maybe a similar problem. That's two sides of the same coin. Autism can be co occurring with mental health issues, but not always, though the same health professionals deal with both, which deepens the confusion for a lot of people. So when you want an autism diagnosis, what do you go to a psychiatrist, you go to a neurologist, you go to somebody who deals with, you know, these types of disorders, like psychosis, narcissism, autism. It's all sort of piled into one pile, so it increases people's misunderstanding of the situation. An autistic will have a social interaction deficit, versus a narcissist will have such a good understanding of social situations that they can use them to manipulate other people's feelings. An autistic will have difficulty connecting or identifying with their feelings, versus a narcissist has a hyper connection to their feelings, again, using those to manipulate others. Autistics tend to have more one dimensional personalities versus a narcissist who has multiple personalities that they can slide into. It's not multiple personality disorder. No, but they slide into different personalities based on who they're around. Again, in order to manipulate the situation to get a result, they'll switch on and off their personality like a mask, if you dare say, to get a different result. ASD people tend to feel to blame for things because they're always doing it wrong, whereas a narcissistic person will never take responsibility and always point the finger. The reason why people feel that they're the same thing is because often they have the same result. We just discussed that you totally gaslit me, but it wasn't for any of those reasons. You weren't like this genius who understood feelings so well that you were manipulating me or you weren't saying, oh, I'm going to really get her. You were just saying, I just, I don't want her to see how messed up I am.

[46:54] Moshe: Right. It was. It was quite the opposite. It was very much that I wasn't aware that I was doing anything wrong. Or if I did, I didn't know how to do any different. But when you are truly narcissistic, and I use narcissistic in the, in the mental health definition, and like you did, then essentially you have such a strong and thorough awareness of, you know, emotional expression that you're able to manipulate it in the same way that that someone who's sailing a boat knows how to manipulate the wind to go in the direction they want to go.

[47:27] Leah: Exactly.

[47:27] Moshe: And that's very much what that is. And it can often get misconstrued because the stereotype is that autistics have no empathy or autistics have no awareness of how they come across to people, or autistics are basically just emotionless robots who go through life without truly understanding, understanding the concept, them doing anything wrong.

[47:54] Leah: Again, my research showed very different. This week I learned something new I actually didn't even know, which is that autistics are not missing empathy, they're missing one half of an empathy equation. So empathy can be broken down into cognitive empathy. So I understand your emotion on an intellectual level, and I can say, hey, you're having an emotion. I'm sorry, you're having that emotion. And adaptive empathy is when you do something about it. So you sit down, you know what to do, you hug the person, or you talk to them, or you give them a present, or you, whatever, it's the follow through. So autistics are actually quite good at cognitive empathy. They understand the other person has a problem. They might even understand what the emotion is, but they have issue with the follow through. So what is it that I do now? What is the socially acceptable result for me to do when, let's say somebody's crying next to me, right?

[48:45] Moshe: It's. It's a lack of scripting, right? It's kind of like in those old text based video games where you would, you know, write in, sit in chair, or write, you would write, sit in room. Rather than sit on chair, you just.

[48:59] Leah: Sit in the corner.

[49:00] Moshe: And it would. And it would be like you would either just sit in the corner or you would get like a pop up that says, I don't see how, how doing that would help, or, I don't understand what you're trying to ask me to do. That's very much what it is. You know what's happening, you just don't know what to do about it.

[49:16] Leah: So it was interesting to me because that's what you keep hearing over and over again. Autistics have no empathy, but that gives them sometimes an out, because if they have no empathy, then they can just continue to act badly, and nobody expects anything better from them because they're incapable of having empathy.

[49:32] Moshe: Right? And how that worked for me again was that I knew that I was doing wrong, I just didn't know what to do about it. And I felt bad about it. I was like, I can't believe I'm doing that.

[49:42] Leah: And the concept of adaptive empathy, then you understand that somebody can actually work on that, just like working on eye contact, which is useless, but some parents think that's really important, or working on turn taking, or working on communication, or verbalizing. It's something that can actually be worked on. Moshe, when you see tears coming down from my eyes, I want you to sit next to me and put your arm around me. And you're not going to necessarily do it every time at first, but with patience and reminding you're going to do that. Does it mean it's an empty gesture? Not at all. And a lot of neurotypicals will feel that way too. Well, if I have to tell you to do it, it doesn't mean anything.

[50:15] Moshe: Right?

[50:16] Leah: It just means you didn't actually know. Like response, not input 404, like error 404. Crying equals we don't know.

[50:23] Moshe: Blue sky. Right. I don't have a script for woman I care about is crying beside me. I'm not certain what the appropriate response would be. So that really is the nature of this belief that autistics have no empathy. And as you mentioned, it's not that they don't feel bad for a person. It's that they don't know a lot of the time. And again, sometimes they do because everyone's different. No one autistic, you know, unautistic, but they don't know what the appropriate response would be. And really that would be defined, as you mentioned in a previous episode, where I am upset because I don't feel like you show me love. I'm looking at you and I got you a coffee. What more do you want? Because those are the responses that in my mind seem appropriate for it. Not necessarily that I wouldn't hug you if I knew that I was supposed to, but I didn't know on my own. And a lot of people say, well, it's so unromantic that I have to explain to you how to show me affection.

[51:22] Leah: But I also had to let that go again. A lot of this was also on me. Do you love this man? Yes, he's autistic. Okay, what does that mean? Does that mean I'm going to get everything exactly the way I want or does that mean I have to work with him? It would be the same as being mad at somebody who's in a wheelchair and then saying, I have to wheel you around for the rest of our life. You have to adapt. But yes, that idea of sweeping romance was definitely something I had to let go of.

[51:48] Moshe: Because just because you don't know to do a thing, it doesn't mean that doing it is going to be undesirable to you. Because you can still tell if when I'm doing something, if I'm doing it because I feel like doing it or because I don't understand why I'm doing it. But it seems like the right thing to do, you know? And you'll call me on it, you'll say, you don't know what you're doing right now. Like, you don't understand why you have to do this thing. And it doesn't mean that the gesture is empty. It just means that I don't understand the meaning behind it. There's a video, and I can't remember what it is, but if I can find it, I'll post it in the show. Notes that I showed to you once, that defines the difference between sympathy and empathy. And I think that you could further drill down on empathy as the understanding of emotional reaction to a situation, as well as understanding the reason for it. And it was defined as, you're walking on a path and you see a person drowning, and you look at them and you go, oh, wow, I'm so sorry, you're drowning. That's gotta be terrible, right? Anyway, I gotta go. That would be sympathy, because you acknowledged that their plight was unfortunate, but you didn't really indicate that it mattered much to you. Empathy would be, oh, my gosh, you're drowning. I don't know what to do about this. Help you, you know, would you like some help? That would be empathy. You're acknowledging that there's something happening and it's affecting you. You just don't know what you're supposed to do. Whereas a person with the practical or the adaptive would be like, oh, my gosh. And then you would jump into the water and you would pull them out.

[53:26] Leah: Exactly.

[53:26] Moshe: And that is the difference.

[53:28] Leah: Yeah, that's. That was a really, really good way of describing it. So, essentially, what all of this long winded stuff ends up saying is that, whether neurotypical or neurodivergent, if somebody is acting poorly, they don't get a pass. And if they refuse to change, then you should not put up with that. And you should be making your. Your plans to maybe go or disengage from that relationship.

[53:53] Moshe: Right? Because as I mentioned before, it starts with listening. If a person is like me and they're doing wrong, but they don't know what to do about it, it really starts with listening. And this is something you've told me many, many, many times, where I'll go, like, I don't. Like, I'm sorry I did the thing, or I'm sorry I said that, but I don't know how to stop. And you said, okay, so start by listening to me when I tell you that I don't like it, and maybe we can talk about some other things that you can do to not have that happen again. But if they're not even willing to get to the point where they're willing to listen, if they're like, nope, you're wrong, I'm right. You're the one at fault. Here, and I'm just living my life. And you're, like, taking, you know, all of your frustrations out on me by telling me that I'm the one who's doing wrong, then maybe it's not. Maybe it's not a relationship worth continuing.

[54:43] Leah: It might not be working. So again, I always like to sort of balance things out and point out the things that we had to work on. And the thing that you had to work on was sort of fighting your self centered tendencies to make other people's concerns as important as yours. And I say as important as yours because autistics will sometimes have a tendency to make other people's concerns more important than theirs. And then their concerns disappear. You had to strike a balance. You had to say, okay, so everybody in this family is as important as me. So everything has to get a certain amount of attention. And that still work for you. But the point is, you're working on it. And I had to work on being more patient and more understanding. And again, giving up some of these ideals that you see in Hollywood of, like, what does a man do? You know? Or if he doesn't know, I'm not going to tell him. Or it's not romantic if he doesn't think about it himself.

[55:31] Moshe: Right? Spontaneous affection. And sometimes it happens. Sometimes you get it right, but sometimes you don't. And it doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship is not worth maintaining. It just means that sometimes you might have to throw him a life preserver every now and again or feed him some lines. Because the greatest actor can sometimes be up on stage and forget their lines. And if you give them the lines, it doesn't necessarily mean that he's any worse an actor. It just means that sometimes he forgets what he's supposed to say.

[56:01] Leah: And that makes sense. So let's talk about. We sort of touched on at the beginning, so I want to discuss it, even though, as always, we're sort of running low on time. Masking is masking a manipulation or shame cover up. So let's talk about my viewpoint and the viewpoint of a lot of females. Because from the neurotypical female brain, it looks like manipulation and deception. It looks like he was this perfect guy until he got me or until he married me or until I moved in with him, and then he showed his true colors. Whereas what masking genuinely is, is something different. The way it looked in our situation in a lot of neurotypical, neurodivergent relationships, especially when the neurodivergent is a man who's expected to perform overtures and romance and all that stuff is. Definitely looks like he's a superman. You were absolutely. You were the perfect host. You were the perfect husband, you were the perfect caretaker, you were the perfect earner. You had everything together. You were the perfect lover, you were the perfect friend. You were funny. You did anything I wanted. You were Superman. But can somebody who's not Superman maintain being Superman for very long?

[57:10] Moshe: No, because essentially masking is a form of manipulation, but it's a form of manipulation that, once again, comes down to self preservation. If you have a strong sense of self, whether you're neurodivergent or not, then you can say, this is who I am, like it or not. Whereas if you much like you and I, if you've been sort of waiting for this relationship to manifest for as long as we have, then you want to get it right. And so what you do is you create a caricature of yourself that you believe will put all of your best qualities forward and conceal your worst qualities as much as possible.

[57:48] Leah: And the problem with that is that the person takes that at face value, right?

[57:53] Moshe: And it does come across as being dishonest, because it is dishonest, but it's not dishonest to manipulate. You're not, like, coming across as this suave, Romeo type person in order to, like, hurt and abuse and steal a person's money or, you know, bury them in your backyard or whatever. It's really about the person believing that they're not good enough. And they do this a lot of the time without permission from the other person. They are, in effect, telling them, you are not going to accept me the way I am. So I have to lie to you in order for you to accept me, right?

[58:27] Leah: And my response would have been, and was, whenever the mask squid slip is, that's my choice, right? You'd be like, I'm not on the same level as you. I don't think you want to be with me. And I would say that is, that is my choice. You don't get to choose for me.

[58:40] Moshe: And if a person cares about you, they're going to care about you whether you're autistic or not. And if you are, and you come forward with it and you start relationships with it. Hi, my name is Moshe, and I'm autistic. Then it allows a person to understand essentially what they're getting themselves into and decide if it's what they want.

[58:58] Leah: You're removing the choice. People need to know what they're getting into. And sometimes it will result in the person not being with you. But if that is the result, then it's what's going to happen down the line anyway. If the person doesn't like you for you at the beginning, they're certainly not going to like you. After a year of investing in somebody who they think is not even you.

[59:16] Moshe: Is a relationship worth having with someone if they wouldn't take you as you.

[59:22] Leah: Are, my answer would have always been no, but not necessarily for you and other autistics. Again, research is showing this and they'll.

[59:29] Moshe: And they'll fight to the death and they'll say, well, I'm doing this for your benefit because you wouldn't accept me unless I was essentially perfect. And then you have to define what is perfect. And also, who are you to decide for me what I would accept and not. And that's what you told me. And so many were it. It's not up to you to decide what I will and won't put up with. It is up to you to disclose to me your deficits so that I can adapt. But if I cared about you, what you do, then I will find a way to work with you. Whereas if you are essentially trying to portray yourself as someone that you are not, whether it lasts a week, a month or a year, eventually it's going to fall apart and I will be left looking at this person and being like, I don't even know you.

[01:00:18] Leah: Yeah, we essentially fast forwarded everything because of the virtue of the way our life panned out, right? So we only dated for about two weeks before really committing to moving in together and building a life together.

[01:00:30] Moshe: Right?

[01:00:30] Leah: But those two weeks of dating wrecked the first two years of our life because I had no idea who I was with, right?

[01:00:36] Moshe: And that was my own fault. And that's something that as an autistic person now, and to all the neurodivergent and autistic and what have you people listening now, you have to be forward with who you are as a person, because if a person is not going to accept you in a year's time when the mask slips, then they should not accept you now when you're essentially putting on a show for them.

[01:01:02] Leah: And that's my point, to be honest with you. If two weeks messed me up so bad, can you imagine these people who are in relationships where the person keeps the mask for two years or a year or six months even, and then I, they just can't keep it up anymore because any human being can't keep up being a superhuman for that long, right?

[01:01:19] Moshe: And then you're left, and then you're.

[01:01:21] Leah: Like, who are you? Why are you not the person that.

[01:01:23] Moshe: Weeks or months or years down the line when you're like, okay, well, this is who I am. And it's like, you know, we've been together for a year or two years, and it's like I'm just meeting you now. So what the heck was that like? Who was that person that I was with?

[01:01:39] Leah: And I had to go through that too. And it ends up that once you were able to really be yourself, get over all your own shenanigans and whatever, I liked you even better.

[01:01:47] Moshe: Right?

[01:01:47] Leah: But I don't know that that's going to be necessarily the case for everyone. But it should be. You shouldn't be with somebody who doesn't feel that way about you.

[01:01:55] Moshe: Because if a person truly cares about you, they will accept you worsen all. And if they don't care about you, then they will find any conceivable reason to not be with you. And also, and I'm sorry to all my fellow autistics, but we're a lot. Like, we're a handful. And if we want to have a meaningful relationship, or you want to have a meaningful relationship with someone else, or if I want to continue to have a meaningful relationship with Leah, it really starts and ends with me being able to say, look, I am autistic and I am struggling with this, and I have challenges that I need you to help me with. And for Leah to go, thank you for telling me that. This is something that's challenging me. Either a, I will take over and do this for you, or b, I will help you to do it yourself, or c, we will do it together.

[01:02:50] Leah: I mean, just this morning it happened where you ran out of medication, and I said, you can't keep running out of medication. Download an app.

[01:02:56] Moshe: Right?

[01:02:56] Leah: And that was just, I guess, me involuntarily foisting help upon you. But that's the kind of relationship that we've now developed.

[01:03:03] Moshe: Right. So, any final thoughts, Leah?

[01:03:06] Leah: I think ultimately my final thought comes down to, I'm always the balanced one. So nobody is completely good or completely bad. Damaged people damage other people unless they work on themselves. Autistics are just human, just like you and me. And they have, you know, benefits and detriments, and they have deficits and abilities just like everyone else. And everyone is just kind of in the middle and muddling their way through and doing their best. So if you can find somebody that you care enough about to have that kind of a relationship with, then good on you. If you're being hurt in a relationship, whether you're into the neurotypical party or the neurodivergent party, please try some of the things we said. Seek therapy. And if the person isn't going to change and if they continue to hurt you, then you may want to do your exit strategy.

[01:03:53] Moshe: Very good. Thanks for listening, folks. Keep listening. Go back and listen to our past episodes. Keep listening to our future episodes. We'll talk to you next week. Well, that's our show for today. Now, you know, one autistic just a little bit better. So something you may not know about some autistics is that we often struggle with ending social interactions. So leah.

[01:04:18] Leah: All right, Moshe, I'll take care of it. Thank you for listening to now, you know one autistic. See you next week.

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