Episode Title: Gears of the Brain: Can Autistic Emotions Really Be on a Delay?

Episode Number: 31

Release Date: November 25, 2024

Duration: 01:15:51

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah explore the concept of delayed emotional processing in autism. Drawing from Moshe's personal experiences, they discuss the challenges of understanding and regulating emotions, including the impact of sensory overload and the need for accommodations. The hosts also touch on the importance of early intervention and offer practical strategies for managing emotions in social situations.

Key Takeaways

  • Emotional Processing Delay: Autistic individuals may experience a delay in processing emotions, leading to challenges in understanding and regulating their emotional responses.
  • Sensory Overload: Sensory overload can significantly impact emotional processing, making it difficult to identify and regulate emotions effectively.
  • Early Intervention: Early intervention is crucial for developing emotional regulation skills and strategies for managing social situations.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

  • How delayed emotional processing can manifest in autistic individuals. 
  • The impact of sensory overload on emotional regulation.
  • Practical strategies for managing emotions and navigating social situations.

Quotes

  • "It's a challenge to really understand new data." - Moshe

Resources & Links

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Transcript:

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<v Music>

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<v Moshe>Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic.

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<v Leah>I'm Leah, and I'm boring. Welcome to the Now You Know One Autistic podcast.

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<v Moshe>The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect one autistic and one Leah,

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<v Moshe>and don't necessarily reflect the entire autistic community.

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<v Leah>Let's get to it.

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<v Moshe>Hi, Moshe. Hi, Leah.

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<v Leah>How are you, honey?

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<v Moshe>I'm good. I'm really, really good.

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<v Leah>I'm really glad. So it's been a while. We came back with a huge bang recently

00:00:45.184 --> 00:00:50.824
<v Leah>after a couple of weeks of not recording where we spoke to, I mean,

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<v Leah>what we consider, we're huge fans, the most famous autistic in the world.

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<v Leah>And she had a lot to say about her opinions, which we agree with.

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<v Leah>So everybody should check that one out.

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<v Moshe>Yeah, it was a huge honor for us to have the opportunity to speak for about

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<v Moshe>an hour to Dr. Temple Grandin.

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<v Moshe>I mean, it was last night for us, but it'll be whenever you listen to the episode for you.

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<v Moshe>And we spoke on a variety of different topics. It was something that we've been

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<v Moshe>working on getting for a long time.

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<v Moshe>I wish that we could have gotten her out to personally speak with her,

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<v Moshe>but it was just not possible for us to bring her from Colorado to Jerusalem for the interview.

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<v Moshe>So the audio quality was done over the telephone, but it was a really, really good interview.

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<v Moshe>And if you go to episode 30, I think we're at episode 30 now.

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<v Leah>That's amazing.

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<v Moshe>Episode 30, you can listen to our chat with Dr. Temple Grandin.

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<v Moshe>It was unscripted. It was without any clear topic in mind.

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<v Moshe>So we just, by her request, it was just a talk that we all had with Dr.

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<v Moshe>Grandin. It was fantastic.

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<v Moshe>So you should go back and check it out.

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<v Leah>You should. So today we're going back to our original formula, which is Moshe and I.

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<v Moshe>Yep. We don't have any guests today. It's just Leia and Moshe talking about something.

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<v Leah>Usually something that recently happened that brings up a topic that has to

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<v Leah>do with neurodiversity. And today is no different.

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<v Leah>So the topic that we're going to try to tackle today, it's a huge topic.

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<v Leah>So we're going to have to drill down on a couple of aspects of it,

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<v Leah>is delay in emotional processing.

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<v Moshe>Yeah, so we talked a lot in the past few episodes or thereabouts regarding the

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<v Moshe>fact that people on the spectrum have a processing delay.

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<v Moshe>People with ADHD, with autism, with some kind of neurodiversity, divergency.

00:03:01.732 --> 00:03:07.532
<v Moshe>I don't think we've ever really agreed on whether neurodiversity and neurodivergency is more...

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<v Leah>I say divergent more often, but I think they're both correct. Okay.

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<v Speaker2>Yeah.

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<v Moshe>So like how people with neurodiversity or neurodivergency have a processing delay.

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<v Moshe>So when they receive information, it can take them anywhere from a few minutes to a few hours to...

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<v Leah>I've heard days.

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<v Moshe>...a few days to really sort of drill down on how, not only how they feel about

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<v Moshe>it, that's actually the topic we're going to discuss, but what they think about it.

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<v Moshe>So it actually takes a while to sort of filter through the parts of their brain

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<v Moshe>to get to the place where they go, ah, now I understand, or now it's ingrained,

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<v Moshe>or now I know what you said.

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<v Leah>So I think what I'd like to do is talk about what brought it up and then talk

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<v Leah>a little bit about the mechanics of what might be happening with somebody who's struggling with this.

00:03:58.052 --> 00:04:03.992
<v Leah>So it's hard for me to think of a specific thing. But Moshe will have these

00:04:03.992 --> 00:04:06.432
<v Leah>issues where he'll behave in a certain way.

00:04:06.572 --> 00:04:12.152
<v Leah>He'll behave like he's annoyed or he'll behave like he's exasperated or like he's disinterested.

00:04:12.432 --> 00:04:15.592
<v Leah>And then when he's called out on it, like, why are you annoyed by this?

00:04:15.672 --> 00:04:17.592
<v Leah>He'll be like, I'm not annoyed. I feel happy about it.

00:04:17.912 --> 00:04:20.192
<v Leah>And then you would ask him, well, if you feel happy about it,

00:04:20.272 --> 00:04:24.552
<v Leah>why is your behavior saying that you're annoyed? And then he would have no idea.

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<v Leah>But it would be very, very important to him that he knew how he was feeling

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<v Leah>and the rest of the world had to accept that he was happy about this.

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<v Leah>But it was kind of hard to swallow because he was acting not happy about it.

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<v Leah>So explain your experience with that.

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<v Moshe>So it's processing delay, but it's also the same kind of insecurity

00:04:51.012 --> 00:04:58.872
<v Moshe>and lack of control and masking that is sort of hallmark of being on the spectrum.

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<v Speaker2>And all of these things

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<v Moshe>We have spoken about in past episodes. We did episode or two on masking and we did...

00:05:07.178 --> 00:05:12.058
<v Moshe>A lot of talking on, I think our second episode maybe was, or maybe our third

00:05:12.058 --> 00:05:16.018
<v Moshe>episode ever was on the uncanny valley of autism.

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<v Leah>No, we still like that one.

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<v Moshe>So it all kind of factors in to what's sort of in play here.

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<v Moshe>And essentially, a lot of it is from my own experience, because if you lack

00:05:28.298 --> 00:05:35.018
<v Moshe>the ability, first of all, to understand emotion, as a lot of people on the spectrum do.

00:05:35.338 --> 00:05:39.598
<v Moshe>Of course, not all, because again, when you know one autistic, you know one autistic.

00:05:40.098 --> 00:05:46.518
<v Moshe>But the mechanism that goes into having a fully formed, fully baked,

00:05:46.618 --> 00:05:51.118
<v Moshe>if you will, emotion, it's not impossible, but it's a challenge.

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<v Leah>Sometimes it's delayed. Sometimes it's not. Sometimes you know how you feel.

00:05:55.598 --> 00:05:59.798
<v Moshe>Sometimes you do. It's not to say that it's universal and it's not to say that

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<v Moshe>it's uniform. I find with you,

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<v Leah>It's more with unfamiliar emotions or unexpected emotions.

00:06:07.058 --> 00:06:11.338
<v Leah>Yes. Like if I hug and kiss you, you're going to smile and hug and kiss me back.

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<v Leah>That's a familiar emotion.

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<v Leah>But like if, I don't know, Avram does something new, you know,

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<v Leah>and exciting that's annoying, you might act annoyed, but then say that you're

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<v Leah>okay with it, but you're not.

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<v Moshe>It's a challenge to really understand new data.

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<v Moshe>Because essentially, when you take in an outside stimuli,

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<v Moshe>be it a word or a noise or a sound or smell or something like that,

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<v Moshe>your body has to figure out how it's going to respond to it.

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<v Moshe>And in neurotypical people, for the most part, I imagine a lot of it is instant.

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<v Moshe>This light is too bright. This smell is too strong. This...

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<v Moshe>Person is really upsetting me. But for an autistic or someone on the spectrum,

00:07:02.611 --> 00:07:05.531
<v Moshe>it's not necessarily so clear cut.

00:07:05.731 --> 00:07:11.891
<v Moshe>And it certainly doesn't always take that half a second that it might take for

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<v Moshe>someone who doesn't have a processing delay.

00:07:14.351 --> 00:07:17.431
<v Moshe>So what will happen, for example,

00:07:17.711 --> 00:07:26.111
<v Moshe>is I will have a conversation with someone or something will happen or I'll

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<v Moshe>read something and I will not form the emotion attached to what I read or heard or saw.

00:07:37.671 --> 00:07:44.531
<v Moshe>My body will sometimes react before my mind processes it.

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<v Moshe>So, for example, I'll get a, I'll read about a really tragic story and my energy

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<v Moshe>will be down and my lack of motivation will be down and I'll be in a subdued mood and Leia might say,

00:08:01.131 --> 00:08:03.851
<v Moshe>what's with your face? Like, what's going on?

00:08:04.271 --> 00:08:08.091
<v Moshe>And my response will be, I don't know what you mean.

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<v Moshe>I feel fine. Like, I don't know what, well, you just, you seem a little down

00:08:12.111 --> 00:08:16.751
<v Moshe>and you seem like not yourself. Is there something going on that,

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<v Moshe>you know, that's making you feel that way? I'm like, I feel,

00:08:20.071 --> 00:08:21.651
<v Moshe>I don't understand what you mean. I feel fine.

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<v Moshe>And then through conversation, because obviously I don't want this sort of hanging

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<v Moshe>in the air, but through conversation,

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<v Moshe>I will speak to Leigh and go, you know what?

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<v Moshe>I actually did read this really sad story earlier today, and it's just been on my mind all day.

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<v Moshe>And I think it really upset me, but I didn't really understand it at the time.

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<v Moshe>Or if it's allowed to proceed to the logical conclusion, I'll get to the point

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<v Moshe>where I'll be like, oh, my God, that thing that I saw yesterday is so upsetting.

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<v Moshe>Right. And then I'll react to it.

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<v Leah>And then I'll say what thing? Yeah, and I'll be like.

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<v Moshe>I read this thing yesterday morning and it just really bothered me.

00:09:05.214 --> 00:09:07.134
<v Moshe>Yeah. And I just realized it now.

00:09:07.494 --> 00:09:10.934
<v Leah>Whereas if you want to talk about a neurotypical, or not even necessarily a

00:09:10.934 --> 00:09:15.534
<v Leah>neurotypical, because there's many types of neurodivergent, but somebody without a processing delay.

00:09:16.054 --> 00:09:19.734
<v Leah>It's not that this doesn't happen. It's just that we discuss this a lot.

00:09:20.074 --> 00:09:23.014
<v Leah>Our brain is on automatic and yours is on analog.

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<v Moshe>Yes. So what will

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<v Leah>Happen for me is I'll get a stimulus, whatever, and the initial emotion will be, That's annoying.

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<v Leah>But right away, my brain will go through the filter. Is it worth being annoying?

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<v Leah>What's actually happening? Should you react that way to that?

00:09:38.714 --> 00:09:42.374
<v Leah>No, it's probably okay. And then I'll have the appropriate reaction.

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<v Leah>But that all happens on automation.

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<v Leah>Whereas for you, that might take, like you said, minutes, hours, even days.

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<v Leah>But you're having that initial reaction of that initial emotion or feeling that

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<v Leah>your brain threw up there.

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<v Leah>Not threw up like vomiting. I mean, like literally comes from the inside of

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<v Leah>your brain and comes up to the executive function where it's just being more slowly processed by.

00:10:06.634 --> 00:10:07.154
<v Moshe>Right.

00:10:07.474 --> 00:10:08.494
<v Leah>Your frontal lobe, I guess.

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<v Moshe>So it's, it's talking about,

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<v Moshe>It's talking about the idea of emotional regulation, which is another common topic.

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<v Leah>I had this talk a couple of days ago and we laughed and laughed how like you're

00:10:21.386 --> 00:10:24.546
<v Leah>on stick shift and I'm on automatic. The transmissions of the brain.

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<v Moshe>Yes. It's maybe we can write a book one day called The Gears of the Brain or something like that.

00:10:31.246 --> 00:10:37.506
<v Moshe>But we liken the brain to car transmission.

00:10:38.046 --> 00:10:42.806
<v Moshe>Now, despite the outwardly male appearance, I'm not necessarily as into cars as some guys.

00:10:43.186 --> 00:10:47.426
<v Moshe>But I do know transmissions, and I have been driving for a number of years.

00:10:48.326 --> 00:10:54.006
<v Moshe>And the neurotypical brain is very much like an automatic, where you get into

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<v Moshe>the car and you shift into drive.

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<v Moshe>And as you go, the car automatically shifts you through the gears so that you

00:11:00.506 --> 00:11:07.286
<v Moshe>get to the correct gear, depending on your speed and depending on all the factors that go into it.

00:11:07.506 --> 00:11:13.486
<v Moshe>Whereas the autistic brain or the neurodiversion brain is very much like a six

00:11:13.486 --> 00:11:20.586
<v Moshe>shift, like a standard transmission where you hit the gas and immediately the

00:11:20.586 --> 00:11:21.766
<v Moshe>needle goes into the red.

00:11:22.146 --> 00:11:26.526
<v Moshe>And you're moving hardly at all. And you're just starting to smell smoke.

00:11:26.526 --> 00:11:28.006
<v Moshe>And then your transmission is burnt out.

00:11:28.146 --> 00:11:32.146
<v Moshe>And $5,000 later, it's a thing. But you actually have to.

00:11:32.366 --> 00:11:35.066
<v Leah>It's a good metaphor. But what that looks like in real life,

00:11:35.186 --> 00:11:39.066
<v Leah>for example, is you will, I don't know, again, I'll come back to Abram,

00:11:39.166 --> 00:11:41.486
<v Leah>tends to happen with him a lot, because he's unpredictable.

00:11:41.746 --> 00:11:44.626
<v Leah>He's the most unpredictable person in the house, and you have an issue with

00:11:44.626 --> 00:11:46.106
<v Leah>unpredictability. I do.

00:11:46.386 --> 00:11:48.906
<v Leah>Where he'll do something and you'll sort of be short with him.

00:11:49.066 --> 00:11:51.866
<v Leah>And then the next day you'll say, oh, I feel so bad for being short with him,

00:11:51.946 --> 00:11:54.806
<v Leah>because you'll finally have processed that what he did wasn't that big of a deal.

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<v Speaker2>Right.

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<v Moshe>So I have to take myself through the gears, if you will, where something will

00:12:01.186 --> 00:12:04.186
<v Moshe>happen, say with him, say with you, say with anyone.

00:12:05.566 --> 00:12:10.186
<v Moshe>And it has to sort of enter the brain and go, wow, that was a really annoying thing.

00:12:10.586 --> 00:12:14.786
<v Moshe>And then I'll have to shift into second and go, okay, well, was that intentional

00:12:14.786 --> 00:12:16.826
<v Moshe>or was it meant to upset me?

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<v Moshe>No? Okay, shift into third. Okay, so is it something that I should discuss or

00:12:22.226 --> 00:12:25.226
<v Moshe>is it something that I should just let go and then I shift it to fourth?

00:12:25.986 --> 00:12:29.986
<v Moshe>So it's nothing that's that important, and it was obviously not intentional.

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<v Moshe>So I don't think that it's worth me reacting to.

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<v Leah>Fourth is usually I'll talk to Lea about it later when I go to bed. Right. But it takes.

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<v Moshe>Me through the whole slew of things where a normal, I say normal,

00:12:45.006 --> 00:12:50.586
<v Moshe>I don't like that word, but the neurotypical brain would go from stimuli to response very quickly.

00:12:51.126 --> 00:12:53.806
<v Moshe>For someone on the spectrum, it does take a little bit longer.

00:12:53.986 --> 00:12:56.586
<v Moshe>And sometimes you need to work through it.

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<v Moshe>And Lea and I over the years have come up with flow charts.

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<v Leah>We should actually draw those.

00:13:04.066 --> 00:13:04.706
<v Moshe>We really should.

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<v Leah>We should ask Adam to draw them.

00:13:06.086 --> 00:13:06.666
<v Moshe>We should.

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<v Moshe>And it really comes down to someone said something.

00:13:12.091 --> 00:13:14.671
<v Moshe>You said something. Avram said something. Raya said something.

00:13:14.891 --> 00:13:18.231
<v Moshe>Somebody at work said something. Somebody on the street said something.

00:13:18.631 --> 00:13:22.211
<v Moshe>The guy behind the counter at the post office said something.

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<v Moshe>So the first thing is, how do I feel about that? Well, I don't know.

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<v Moshe>So if you don't, like, do you know how you feel about this? That's the first

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<v Moshe>flow. What emotion does this make you feel? Usually it's a positive or a negative rather.

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<v Leah>I'm going to stop you right there. Let's go back to the flowchart,

00:13:39.111 --> 00:13:40.551
<v Leah>but I want to stop you right there.

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<v Leah>Okay. Because one of the biggest arguments that we've had until you came to

00:13:44.991 --> 00:13:48.471
<v Leah>the conclusion on your own after me harassing and harassing and harassing you

00:13:48.471 --> 00:13:53.471
<v Leah>about it was you were insistent that the emotion you said you were feeling was the emotion.

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<v Leah>And how dare anybody say or tell you how you feel?

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<v Leah>And the results-based evidence was you don't feel that way because you're acting not that way.

00:14:06.431 --> 00:14:12.651
<v Moshe>So this really goes back to an old episode that we did.

00:14:13.831 --> 00:14:17.691
<v Moshe>And actually, if you go back, I'm trying to think of it.

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<v Moshe>Not the last episode because I was on Dr. Grandin.

00:14:22.051 --> 00:14:29.231
<v Moshe>But the episode before that, I think we did a talk on my self-esteem and my

00:14:29.231 --> 00:14:33.411
<v Moshe>metric for how I value myself.

00:14:33.411 --> 00:14:40.231
<v Moshe>And I'm pretty sure that during that one, we discussed that one and several

00:14:40.231 --> 00:14:42.411
<v Moshe>others in the past, because it's kind of an ongoing thing,

00:14:42.631 --> 00:14:50.831
<v Moshe>where I had to build this facade because I was an undiagnosed autistic with no support at all.

00:14:51.331 --> 00:14:57.311
<v Moshe>No one even suggested until I was in my 40s that I might be autistic.

00:14:57.651 --> 00:15:01.931
<v Moshe>So I was difficult. I was dramatic. I was over the top. I was a liar.

00:15:02.111 --> 00:15:03.851
<v Moshe>I was dishonest. I was histrionic.

00:15:05.711 --> 00:15:13.011
<v Moshe>So we just kind of worked out that I had to build this facade for myself,

00:15:13.011 --> 00:15:19.831
<v Moshe>this wall, this barrier, this suit of armor, where everything that I was doing was intentional.

00:15:20.231 --> 00:15:22.211
<v Moshe>Every action that I took was meaningful.

00:15:22.631 --> 00:15:26.491
<v Moshe>Everything that I felt was important was important. Everything that I didn't

00:15:26.491 --> 00:15:28.071
<v Moshe>think was important wasn't important.

00:15:28.291 --> 00:15:31.111
<v Moshe>And everything I did was for a purpose.

00:15:31.591 --> 00:15:34.451
<v Moshe>And then we had to sort of smash that whole thing down.

00:15:34.651 --> 00:15:37.971
<v Leah>Yeah, but except deep down on the inside, you had to know that that wasn't the case.

00:15:38.291 --> 00:15:44.351
<v Moshe>Right. But that level of insecurity, that little voice in my head that was constantly

00:15:44.351 --> 00:15:49.851
<v Moshe>repeating for 10, 20, 30, 40 years, you have no idea what you're doing.

00:15:49.851 --> 00:15:58.031
<v Moshe>Was constantly being shut up because I had no support. I had no diagnosis.

00:15:58.031 --> 00:16:02.371
<v Moshe>I had nobody who was going to take my side for the most part.

00:16:03.875 --> 00:16:07.415
<v Moshe>I thought, this is all perception, of course. This is not reality because I

00:16:07.415 --> 00:16:12.355
<v Moshe>actually probably had lots of people who were happy to help me if I was willing to accept their help.

00:16:12.575 --> 00:16:12.875
<v Leah>Probably.

00:16:13.155 --> 00:16:25.395
<v Moshe>But I had to tell myself that if it truly meant that I had no idea what I was doing, then what do I do?

00:16:25.635 --> 00:16:26.855
<v Leah>Like, how do I fix this?

00:16:26.955 --> 00:16:28.755
<v Moshe>How do I fix this? I don't know how to fix it. Right.

00:16:29.255 --> 00:16:33.015
<v Leah>Because, again, no diagnosis, no support. But I think there's a lot that goes

00:16:33.015 --> 00:16:35.095
<v Leah>into it. So our discussions would often go like this.

00:16:35.515 --> 00:16:38.195
<v Leah>How dare you? You can't tell me how I feel. And I would say,

00:16:38.315 --> 00:16:41.755
<v Leah>I'm not telling you how I feel, but I am telling you this is not how you feel.

00:16:42.235 --> 00:16:43.615
<v Leah>This is how you don't feel.

00:16:44.535 --> 00:16:47.915
<v Leah>So can we discuss more? And then that would just shut it down because you didn't want to.

00:16:48.855 --> 00:16:50.935
<v Leah>Until you came to it eventually on your own.

00:16:51.555 --> 00:16:53.555
<v Moshe>Because it required. It felt a lot of annoying for me,

00:16:53.615 --> 00:16:54.935
<v Leah>But eventually on your own.

00:16:55.595 --> 00:17:03.555
<v Moshe>It required me to, you know, the sort of going into the comparison to the 12

00:17:03.555 --> 00:17:07.815
<v Moshe>steps that the people who go through Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous,

00:17:08.195 --> 00:17:10.375
<v Moshe>the first step is admitting that you're powerless.

00:17:10.795 --> 00:17:15.055
<v Moshe>And I had to get there on my own. I wasn't in like the Autistics Anonymous.

00:17:15.275 --> 00:17:17.475
<v Moshe>That's true. That's the AA that we don't talk about.

00:17:18.035 --> 00:17:21.535
<v Leah>Even right after your diagnosis, you still tried to walk this line where you

00:17:21.535 --> 00:17:24.855
<v Leah>were like a grown-up and a big boy, but you still had an autism diagnosis.

00:17:25.095 --> 00:17:28.255
<v Leah>Right. You totally knew what you were doing, but you also had to be accommodated.

00:17:28.375 --> 00:17:30.795
<v Leah>You were trying to walk this line that just doesn't exist in life.

00:17:31.035 --> 00:17:34.835
<v Moshe>Because you have to defend yourself. Because when you're a child who's acting

00:17:34.835 --> 00:17:39.855
<v Moshe>out, you have your mom or your dad or a relative or a guardian or a caregiver

00:17:39.855 --> 00:17:41.895
<v Moshe>who's going to support you.

00:17:42.375 --> 00:17:46.155
<v Moshe>And you go to the parent-teacher interviews. And you go to the school meetings.

00:17:46.155 --> 00:17:51.035
<v Moshe>And Moshe doesn't behave and he never listens and he throws his books out the

00:17:51.035 --> 00:17:52.815
<v Moshe>window all the time and he zones out.

00:17:53.703 --> 00:17:58.443
<v Moshe>Completely like he doesn't do, like he's always on his own and on and on and on you go.

00:17:58.723 --> 00:18:04.303
<v Moshe>But people expect that you are going to hit milestones.

00:18:04.823 --> 00:18:13.183
<v Moshe>And one of the things that is so mind blowing for a lot of people is the milestones

00:18:13.183 --> 00:18:18.343
<v Moshe>don't stop just because your child is a year old or two years old,

00:18:18.403 --> 00:18:21.323
<v Moshe>you get milestones throughout your life.

00:18:21.603 --> 00:18:25.103
<v Moshe>You could be 45 years old and still have milestones.

00:18:25.363 --> 00:18:25.723
<v Leah>Absolutely.

00:18:26.103 --> 00:18:31.623
<v Moshe>But nobody cares about them because you don't have a pediatrician who's going

00:18:31.623 --> 00:18:34.223
<v Moshe>to go through the chart and go, okay, you're 37 years old.

00:18:34.363 --> 00:18:37.663
<v Moshe>Do you know how to balance your checkbook? Yeah.

00:18:37.883 --> 00:18:40.263
<v Moshe>Do you know how to do your budget? Oh, you're not meeting your milestones.

00:18:40.463 --> 00:18:44.383
<v Moshe>You're in the 80th percentile on this. Yeah. I mean, you might get there if you have a full...

00:18:44.383 --> 00:18:45.863
<v Leah>Nobody's measuring your cranium at 37.

00:18:46.043 --> 00:18:53.743
<v Moshe>Okay, so based on the amount of teeth you have, I think you're struggling with social skews.

00:18:54.483 --> 00:18:58.323
<v Moshe>They don't go through the milestones because I was holding my head up,

00:18:58.343 --> 00:19:01.463
<v Moshe>mostly. I was walking, mostly.

00:19:02.023 --> 00:19:06.643
<v Moshe>No, I was doing all of the basic things. But you don't look at a 40-year-old

00:19:06.643 --> 00:19:08.983
<v Moshe>and question his milestones.

00:19:09.683 --> 00:19:11.803
<v Leah>Unless you get very, very close to him.

00:19:11.983 --> 00:19:13.223
<v Moshe>Unless you're very close to him.

00:19:13.223 --> 00:19:16.243
<v Leah>It took me a while even. And I was like, you don't know what you're doing,

00:19:16.423 --> 00:19:17.483
<v Leah>do you? And it took a while.

00:19:17.623 --> 00:19:20.903
<v Moshe>Right. But you have to admit it to yourself because you have to defend.

00:19:21.203 --> 00:19:29.543
<v Moshe>And even today, you know, even today in me being a podcaster of some repute, I hope,

00:19:29.843 --> 00:19:37.283
<v Moshe>with a full-time job and a partner and children and a bank account and credit

00:19:37.283 --> 00:19:42.103
<v Moshe>cards and stuff, even today, I don't go into every single environment and go,

00:19:42.223 --> 00:19:43.923
<v Moshe>hi, my name is Moshe and I'm autistic.

00:19:44.183 --> 00:19:45.123
<v Leah>Yeah, you can't.

00:19:45.143 --> 00:19:49.803
<v Moshe>There are still people in my life who are very close to me that don't know that I'm autistic. Right.

00:19:49.983 --> 00:19:54.883
<v Leah>People are going to be like a couple of things. The majority of the time, it's not. Really?

00:19:55.123 --> 00:19:59.423
<v Leah>No, your son is autistic. Did you say the wrong word? Or did you say the wrong person?

00:19:59.683 --> 00:20:00.003
<v Moshe>Right.

00:20:00.323 --> 00:20:03.743
<v Leah>That's the majority. Or other people will be like, yeah, who cares?

00:20:03.943 --> 00:20:06.363
<v Leah>Do you know how to, like, can you pay your credit card this month?

00:20:06.383 --> 00:20:07.283
<v Leah>I don't care if you're autistic.

00:20:07.843 --> 00:20:11.323
<v Leah>Right. And that's the majority of the reaction. It's not like when your three-year-old

00:20:11.323 --> 00:20:14.843
<v Leah>can't talk and everybody's like, oh, no, we have to intervene, you know.

00:20:15.103 --> 00:20:18.023
<v Moshe>Right. And, again, we talked about that with Dr. Grandin last night,

00:20:18.023 --> 00:20:20.523
<v Moshe>and there's a lot of really interesting things. You should look at that episode.

00:20:21.123 --> 00:20:32.243
<v Moshe>But we get to the point where if you present that you are autistic in your everyday life,

00:20:33.124 --> 00:20:38.304
<v Moshe>It really, like we should do like a graph. It gets to a point after a certain

00:20:38.304 --> 00:20:41.804
<v Moshe>age where being autistic is actually more of a hindrance than a help.

00:20:42.224 --> 00:20:45.164
<v Moshe>Unless it gets to a point where you have no choice.

00:20:45.564 --> 00:20:49.564
<v Moshe>Like in a previous job, Leah has different opinions.

00:20:49.864 --> 00:20:56.524
<v Moshe>But I was constantly being criticized for my lack of candor and being too honest

00:20:56.524 --> 00:20:59.604
<v Moshe>and saying the wrong thing and being too forward.

00:21:00.344 --> 00:21:03.224
<v Moshe>And she's like, you know, you were really rude to that customer.

00:21:03.424 --> 00:21:06.184
<v Moshe>Like, I don't understand where that would come from.

00:21:06.704 --> 00:21:10.944
<v Moshe>And then I did have to self-disclosure. I'm actually autistic and I do struggle

00:21:10.944 --> 00:21:16.824
<v Moshe>with, you know, present with communication and presenting ideas in certain ways.

00:21:17.044 --> 00:21:20.124
<v Leah>But the problem is managers don't know what to do with that. Right.

00:21:20.504 --> 00:21:24.104
<v Leah>Because they think, you know, autistics wouldn't have even gotten this far.

00:21:24.244 --> 00:21:25.224
<v Leah>Like, they don't know what to do.

00:21:25.564 --> 00:21:27.604
<v Moshe>Right. They're like, oh, sorry,

00:21:27.864 --> 00:21:32.184
<v Leah>I guess I won't. correct you ever, like they don't know how to deal with that.

00:21:32.364 --> 00:21:38.104
<v Moshe>Right. Because the understanding, it really differs. It really does differ based

00:21:38.104 --> 00:21:40.084
<v Moshe>on your environment and your position.

00:21:40.524 --> 00:21:46.544
<v Moshe>For example, we lived for a while in arguably one of the most liberal woke places

00:21:46.544 --> 00:21:50.164
<v Moshe>in the country of Canada, not of Israel, obviously.

00:21:50.664 --> 00:21:54.744
<v Moshe>And I disclosed several times that I was autistic.

00:21:55.124 --> 00:21:59.064
<v Moshe>And they basically said, here are the accommodations we're willing need to do

00:21:59.064 --> 00:22:00.884
<v Moshe>and here are the ones we're not willing to do.

00:22:01.304 --> 00:22:07.384
<v Moshe>And not even a doctor's letter saying he is not able to do these things was

00:22:07.384 --> 00:22:09.964
<v Moshe>enough because they're like, we can't help you.

00:22:10.704 --> 00:22:14.604
<v Leah>They're like, sorry, that's the position. You clearly made it here. So figure it out.

00:22:14.804 --> 00:22:19.804
<v Moshe>Like I've worked in customer service for many years, many, many years.

00:22:20.224 --> 00:22:23.124
<v Moshe>Most of my adult life, actually. And...

00:22:23.124 --> 00:22:24.044
<v Leah>Ironic. Yeah.

00:22:25.184 --> 00:22:29.464
<v Moshe>I just discovered it was a thing that I fell into. And I've worked in a lot

00:22:29.464 --> 00:22:32.224
<v Moshe>of call centers, and I'm no stranger to accommodations.

00:22:33.764 --> 00:22:40.504
<v Moshe>And when I first presented the idea of accommodations, because we did an episode

00:22:40.504 --> 00:22:43.484
<v Moshe>several months ago about reasonable and unreasonable accommodations,

00:22:44.244 --> 00:22:47.624
<v Moshe>and someone actually approached me and said, that's not the right word,

00:22:47.624 --> 00:22:52.704
<v Moshe>because an accommodation is like what someone does at work.

00:22:53.424 --> 00:22:56.724
<v Moshe>Like you need a specific desk or you need an ergonomic chair.

00:22:56.964 --> 00:23:04.124
<v Moshe>Right. When you're talking about having dim light bulbs in your house,

00:23:04.164 --> 00:23:10.604
<v Moshe>you're having certain hours that you're allowed quiet time. That's not an accommodation.

00:23:10.904 --> 00:23:14.464
<v Leah>That's reasonable versus unreasonable, though. Because when you think about

00:23:14.464 --> 00:23:17.404
<v Leah>somebody who has tiny arms, for example.

00:23:17.564 --> 00:23:18.324
<v Moshe>Right. I was going to say.

00:23:18.324 --> 00:23:22.084
<v Leah>Or when you're thinking of somebody who is in a wheelchair, so he needs everything

00:23:22.084 --> 00:23:26.524
<v Leah>lower, it's literally the difference for them of being able to do the job versus

00:23:26.524 --> 00:23:29.724
<v Leah>not being able to do the job. Right. So they have to be accommodated.

00:23:30.144 --> 00:23:34.924
<v Leah>People misunderstand autism in a way, whereas if you're constantly in sensory

00:23:34.924 --> 00:23:37.024
<v Leah>overload, you actually can't do your job.

00:23:37.224 --> 00:23:40.384
<v Leah>Right. So some of the accommodations are not only reasonable, but necessary.

00:23:40.384 --> 00:23:46.644
<v Leah>So if you say to them every hour, I need 10 minutes off the phone because I need to, you know,

00:23:47.004 --> 00:23:50.384
<v Leah>calm down my overstimulation from talking to all these upset people,

00:23:50.384 --> 00:23:55.684
<v Leah>that is actually the difference for you being able to finish your shift or tapping

00:23:55.684 --> 00:23:59.224
<v Leah>out an hour early because you just weren't able to, you know.

00:24:00.185 --> 00:24:03.465
<v Moshe>And I mean, some of these accommodations are baked into the jobs.

00:24:03.785 --> 00:24:08.225
<v Moshe>I interviewed a couple of times several years ago for a 911 operator.

00:24:08.725 --> 00:24:12.565
<v Moshe>And part of the job was that you get a half an hour off the phone.

00:24:12.965 --> 00:24:16.525
<v Moshe>Like you work for a half an hour and then you're off for half an hour.

00:24:16.685 --> 00:24:17.205
<v Leah>Well, it has to be.

00:24:17.285 --> 00:24:20.005
<v Moshe>Because you have to just take a break.

00:24:20.305 --> 00:24:23.345
<v Leah>Yeah, but that's understood that that's too much stress even for a neurotypical

00:24:23.345 --> 00:24:26.365
<v Leah>brain. Like that is a job that they understand this.

00:24:26.365 --> 00:24:35.425
<v Moshe>But it's beyond someone why something like inbound calls, especially if it's not even sales,

00:24:35.605 --> 00:24:39.345
<v Moshe>especially if it's just delivering information in a purely customer service

00:24:39.345 --> 00:24:42.485
<v Moshe>role, would result in somebody needing time off.

00:24:42.905 --> 00:24:48.505
<v Moshe>Like you're not talking someone back from, you know, heaven forbid,

00:24:48.725 --> 00:24:49.765
<v Moshe>the death of their child.

00:24:49.765 --> 00:24:54.805
<v Moshe>You're literally explaining to someone which mailbox they should buy or which

00:24:54.805 --> 00:25:01.605
<v Moshe>medication they would best be suited by or whether or not they checked the right

00:25:01.605 --> 00:25:03.465
<v Moshe>box on their health care application.

00:25:03.645 --> 00:25:08.345
<v Leah>Well, because, again, it comes down to relativity. Relatively speaking,

00:25:08.545 --> 00:25:11.925
<v Leah>a neurotypical brain is too stressed out by having to talk down a shooter or

00:25:11.925 --> 00:25:14.245
<v Leah>somebody wanting to jump off a roof.

00:25:14.445 --> 00:25:14.745
<v Speaker2>Right.

00:25:14.745 --> 00:25:20.625
<v Leah>But relatively speaking, an autistic brain is just as stressed out by having

00:25:20.625 --> 00:25:24.385
<v Leah>to interact with people. The social battery goes down.

00:25:24.545 --> 00:25:28.385
<v Leah>Or if they're upset, you have to then take on that emotion. Or if you can't

00:25:28.385 --> 00:25:30.645
<v Leah>find the information that they want, and it's frustrating.

00:25:30.765 --> 00:25:35.425
<v Leah>Like, that is stressful for anybody, but extra stressful for you.

00:25:35.545 --> 00:25:38.825
<v Leah>Maybe as stressful as me talking someone down from a roof.

00:25:38.825 --> 00:25:42.625
<v Moshe>But I'll tell you an interesting thing, actually, because I want to kind of

00:25:42.625 --> 00:25:45.965
<v Moshe>swerve the wheel back to the actual topic.

00:25:47.285 --> 00:25:51.925
<v Moshe>When we're talking about trying to find emotion and not understanding what they

00:25:51.925 --> 00:26:00.785
<v Moshe>are, feeling overwhelmed, feeling stressed is the same type of thing as being upset.

00:26:01.425 --> 00:26:02.685
<v Speaker2>Because, like I said,

00:26:02.865 --> 00:26:08.805
<v Moshe>You end up in this position where your body responds before your mind catches up.

00:26:09.445 --> 00:26:16.125
<v Moshe>And if I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'll just, like, I'll zone out. My mind will go blank.

00:26:16.645 --> 00:26:22.065
<v Moshe>I'll be sitting there in after call or not ready or whatever you want to call

00:26:22.065 --> 00:26:24.525
<v Moshe>it for just like 20 minutes. And it seems lazy.

00:26:24.785 --> 00:26:30.005
<v Moshe>And just be like, you know, it's not like I'm consciously going, okay, I am stressed.

00:26:30.545 --> 00:26:34.525
<v Moshe>This is what I'm going to do about it. It's like I'll be a little bit slower

00:26:34.525 --> 00:26:42.385
<v Moshe>to process, or I won't take calls as back-to-back as I was, or my notes will get less detailed.

00:26:43.365 --> 00:26:48.365
<v Moshe>There'll be a physical reaction before there'll be an emotional reaction.

00:26:49.185 --> 00:26:53.805
<v Moshe>And what'll happen is that you'll come into the room and say,

00:26:53.805 --> 00:26:56.185
<v Moshe>you've been in and ready for half an hour. What's going on?

00:26:56.445 --> 00:26:59.545
<v Moshe>And I'll say, oh, you know what? I'm actually really overwhelmed. Yeah.

00:27:00.726 --> 00:27:04.046
<v Moshe>And I didn't actually know that I was overwhelmed until about 20 minutes in.

00:27:04.246 --> 00:27:07.846
<v Moshe>I just knew that I could not take any more calls for right now.

00:27:08.466 --> 00:27:14.226
<v Moshe>And I'm very fortunate, actually, that I have a position where I...

00:27:14.226 --> 00:27:15.626
<v Leah>There's always other work to do.

00:27:15.706 --> 00:27:19.446
<v Moshe>I do have the ability. Okay, you know what? I'm going to not take calls for

00:27:19.446 --> 00:27:27.346
<v Moshe>a while. I'm going to actually work on emails, or I'm actually going to focus on, like, these things.

00:27:27.906 --> 00:27:32.206
<v Moshe>Or I'm just going to take some time to do this.

00:27:32.606 --> 00:27:36.846
<v Moshe>I can kind of pick and choose depending on the urgency and especially if the

00:27:36.846 --> 00:27:40.666
<v Moshe>calls are not coming in back to back to back to back to back because a lot of

00:27:40.666 --> 00:27:44.546
<v Moshe>the things that I do are also outbound, which I do find a lot more stressful

00:27:44.546 --> 00:27:46.086
<v Moshe>depending on what I'm doing.

00:27:46.646 --> 00:27:48.946
<v Moshe>And I find outbound to be very stressful.

00:27:49.166 --> 00:27:51.866
<v Leah>I understand because you're bothering people. You don't know if it's a good time.

00:27:52.246 --> 00:27:57.406
<v Moshe>Even if it's for their benefit. Like I'm not selling a magazine subscription or doing a survey.

00:27:57.826 --> 00:28:02.166
<v Moshe>I'm literally telling them they need something that I'm now offering them,

00:28:02.386 --> 00:28:06.986
<v Moshe>which they, I know that they need it because they needed it before and they must need it again.

00:28:07.766 --> 00:28:10.906
<v Moshe>So it's definitely like the worst that they're going to say,

00:28:11.026 --> 00:28:15.366
<v Moshe>and this is something that they tell you actually when you're doing outbound

00:28:15.366 --> 00:28:19.266
<v Moshe>surveys or cold calling, the person may hang up on you.

00:28:19.446 --> 00:28:23.466
<v Moshe>The person may yell at you, but they can't actually physically harm you.

00:28:24.046 --> 00:28:27.386
<v Moshe>So even if you're bothering them and they get really frustrated,

00:28:27.666 --> 00:28:31.606
<v Moshe>the worst that'll happen is they'll yell at you and call you a few stupid names

00:28:31.606 --> 00:28:32.526
<v Moshe>and then hang up the phone.

00:28:33.046 --> 00:28:36.346
<v Moshe>They're not going to reach through the receiver and strangle you or whatever.

00:28:37.806 --> 00:28:39.906
<v Leah>I mean, sometimes it can feel that way, though.

00:28:40.106 --> 00:28:46.866
<v Moshe>I briefly interviewed for a really shady position where we were doing something

00:28:46.866 --> 00:28:49.106
<v Moshe>that I don't actually even remember. It was so insignificant.

00:28:50.326 --> 00:28:54.186
<v Moshe>And somebody in the interview actually asked the person, well,

00:28:54.266 --> 00:28:57.246
<v Moshe>what happens if we call someone and they're not happy?

00:28:57.326 --> 00:29:00.326
<v Moshe>What if they don't want what we're offering them?

00:29:00.986 --> 00:29:03.486
<v Moshe>And the guy said, hold on a second. He picked up the phone. He dialed around.

00:29:03.506 --> 00:29:06.366
<v Moshe>The number said, hi, ma'am. Could you tell me the color of your underwear, please?

00:29:06.986 --> 00:29:09.766
<v Moshe>And then she hung up on him. He hung up and said, see, guess what?

00:29:09.826 --> 00:29:12.706
<v Moshe>I didn't die. She didn't kill me. She just hung up on me.

00:29:13.106 --> 00:29:16.486
<v Leah>Right. That's kind of crap. It really is. That's not really a good thing.

00:29:16.486 --> 00:29:19.246
<v Leah>Like it's not really a good example to give people.

00:29:19.326 --> 00:29:20.266
<v Moshe>It's not a great example.

00:29:20.266 --> 00:29:23.106
<v Leah>Especially when you're like a legitimate customer service person like we are.

00:29:23.306 --> 00:29:26.866
<v Leah>I am the opposite. I have zero feelings. I am a robot.

00:29:27.466 --> 00:29:30.466
<v Leah>Somebody can yell at me and I can hang up and I can talk to the next person.

00:29:30.586 --> 00:29:33.986
<v Leah>But that's, I think, just like years of numbness.

00:29:34.486 --> 00:29:38.746
<v Leah>But going back again to the original topic, though.

00:29:40.579 --> 00:29:42.959
<v Leah>This is another good case for early intervention.

00:29:43.259 --> 00:29:43.579
<v Moshe>Absolutely.

00:29:43.739 --> 00:29:46.539
<v Leah>Because I'll tell you what we did for Avram that would have really helped you,

00:29:46.859 --> 00:29:51.979
<v Leah>which is when he was a baby, like a baby, we would pick him up and stick him

00:29:51.979 --> 00:29:55.099
<v Leah>in a mirror and go, look, you're smiling. You feel happy.

00:29:55.899 --> 00:30:02.219
<v Leah>Oh, look, you're frowning. That's sad. And not only for his own face, but pictures of faces.

00:30:02.579 --> 00:30:06.339
<v Leah>What does this person feel? Like social story. Little Sally is crying.

 

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