Exploring the Genetics of Autism: Ethical Considerations and Our Journey

Episode Title: Exploring the Genetics of Autism: Ethical Considerations and Our Journey

Episode Number: 8

Release Date: May 13, 2024

Duration: 56:30

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah discuss the complexities of genetic testing for Autism Spectrum Disorder (ASD). They delve into the limitations of current genetic testing methods, emphasizing that a definitive diagnosis cannot be made solely through genetic testing. The hosts explore the ethical implications of genetic testing, particularly in the context of family planning and eugenics. They also discuss the potential benefits of genetic testing for identifying associated syndromes and providing targeted treatment. The episode concludes with a personal reflection on their own experience with genetic counseling and the importance of supporting and accepting neurodiversity.

Key Takeaways:

• Limitations of Genetic Testing for ASD: Current genetic testing cannot definitively diagnose ASD and may only identify potential genetic links in a small percentage of cases.
• Ethical Implications: The hosts raise ethical concerns about genetic testing, particularly in the context of family planning and the potential for eugenics.
• Benefits of Genetic Testing: Genetic testing can be beneficial for identifying associated syndromes with ASD, which may have other health implications and require targeted treatment.
• Personal Experience: Moshe and Leah share their personal experience with genetic counseling, highlighting the importance of informed decision-making and the potential for bias in the process.
• Embracing Neurodiversity: The episode concludes with a message of acceptance and support for neurodiversity, emphasizing the value of all individuals, regardless of genetic predispositions.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The different types of genetic tests available for ASD.
• The limitations and potential benefits of genetic testing for ASD.
• The ethical considerations surrounding genetic testing and family planning.
• The importance of understanding and embracing neurodiversity.

Quotes:

• "The genetic investigation of autism is essentially for the curiosity of the scientists who are doing it." - Leah
• "If you don't get a diagnosis of genetic autism, then you actually can come back in a few years and test again." - Moshe
• "Guilt has no place in a diagnosis." - Moshe
• "We are not trying to create a super race. We're just trying to have a family." - Moshe

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Transcript:

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Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic.

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Leah: I'm Leah, and I'm boring.

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Moshe: Welcome to now you know one autistic.

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Leah: A podcast about neurodiversity in
couples, marriage meltdowns, and making it all

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work.

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Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast
reflect the experience of one couple and one

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autistic.

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Leah: Nothing that you hear in this podcast
should be taken as a medical opinion.

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And unless otherwise stated, no one is an
accredited specialist in any of the many

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fields that comprise the autism spectrum.

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Moshe: But as someone who is on the autism
spectrum, I feel that my experiences will be

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very valuable to many of you.

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Whether you're on the spectrum, a support

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person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.

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Leah: If you think that you or someone you
care about may be autistic, consult your

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family doctor.

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Hi, Moshe.

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Hi, Leah.

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How are you today?

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Moshe: I'm great.

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How are you?

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Leah: I'm right.

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So we're going to be doing an episode about

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something that we actually went through
recently and how we feel about it.

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So what we're talking about is genetic testing
for autism spectrum disorder and related

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disorders, and genetic testing, pre pregnancy
and pre IVF in general, I suppose, will be one

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of those things as well.

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Before we get into the meat of our experience,

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which was interesting.

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It wasn't bad, but it was up and down.

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We're going to talk about genetic testing in
general and genetic testing for ASD, just so

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people have an idea of what it is.

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Before we get into when we had to sit down

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with a genetic counselor and how that was
traumatizing.

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Moshe: Right.

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Genetic testing is something that, I mean,

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unless you know that you have a specific
condition or you know that your family has a

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specific condition, it really only comes up
when you are trying to have a baby, because

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when you are with a partner and you decide to
do the thing where you sort of combine your

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DNA, that's generally how babies happen.

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Leah: Did you know?

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Moshe: I did know.

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I have a sneaking suspicion.

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I just really like your smile, so the rest is
just kind of a bonus.

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But the genetic testing thing often comes up
in the case of trying to have a baby, because

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the question that a lot of the people ask is,
do you know if you have a family history of

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this or if you have a family history of that?
Leah and I are both Ashkenazi Jews on our

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mother's side.

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So with our particular line, there's

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definitely a higher instance of certain
genetic conditions.

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But it's really only in the case of people who
have, like, two parents who are Ashkenazi

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Jews, which we don't.

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Leah: So when you're trying to have a baby,
what they'll generally do is they'll test mom

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for all kinds of stuff.

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Right?

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So they tested me for the Ashkenazi Jew
diseases.

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You know, one very prominent one, or used to
be prominent, is tay sachs, which they always

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check Ashkenazi juice for before they have
babies, or they try to.

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They tested me for, you know, genetic
mutations that cause breast cancer and

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cervical.

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Or was it ovarian cancer?

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Moshe: Ovarian cancer.

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Leah: I don't have those.

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They suspect you have it on your side, but

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they haven't checked you because, well, the
lack of ovaries, it would.

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Moshe: Really only be girls that, I mean.

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Leah: You can carry the jeans.

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Moshe: You can.

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But if you have a daughter, they could.

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It could be affected by it, or if you have a
son, who in turn has a daughter.

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So if you have a granddaughter, they could
carry the gene, because, of course, the boy

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would pass it along to another boy, who would
pass it along to a girl.

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And you could be wondering, why am I at a
higher instance of not just ovarian cancer,

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but anything?
And then they can trace the line back.

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Leah: The reason we're saying that is because
Moshe's mother, who we love very much, passed

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away from ovarian cancer.

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So it might be on his side, but his sister

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doesn't have it.

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So anyway, they didn't find it worth testing

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him for.

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So what they'll generally do is test mom,

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which they did a battery of tests on me.

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Those were the two that I can think of right

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now.

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But they did also the general ones, you know,

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trisomy, which is for down syndrome, and spina
bifida.

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Not spina bifida, but muscular dystrophy.

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Sorry.

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Spina bifida is not genetic.

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It's a malformation.

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Moshe: Folic acid.

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Folic acid.

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Leah: Folic acid.

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So they did, you know, all that stuff, they

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looked for proteins in my blood cells and all
that other stuff.

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They didn't find it necessary to test moshe
for anything.

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But they were very interested in his autism
and adhd diagnoses.

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And the third thing that can happen is when
you either have an embryo or a baby, they can

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test the embryo or baby as well.

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We don't have either of those at the moment.

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I mean, we have older babies.

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And Riah has had genetic testing for other

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things.

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So that is how that generally will go.

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So I've had a battery genetic test at this
point, can genetic testing, or, sorry, it's

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done through blood, by the way, just for those
who really have no idea.

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They draw a whole bunch of blood, and they
look at your DNA or specific parts of your DNA

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that they know cause certain disorders.

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Moshe: There are genetic testing that they do
through saliva or through a cheek swab.

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You might have seen the commercials for, like,
23 andme and ancestry.com dot.

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Leah: I get ancestry.

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Moshe: And that does some testing of genetics.

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But the really conclusive, like, targeted

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genetic testing does have to be through blood
tests, because you.

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You can tell, for example, by testing
somebody's genetics through, like, a cheek

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swab, their matrilineal line, their
patrilineal line, if they're a high instance

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for having wet earwax or, like, unnecessary
but interesting how much Neanderthal.

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How much Neanderthal you are.

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That was going to say that one.

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Like, if you're related to Genghis khan or
something, but not.

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But if you want to know, like, if your child
or if you yourself carry genes, blood tests

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are really the way to go.

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Just to be sure.

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Leah: I did the ancestry.

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It showed literally 50% to 51% Ashkenazi and a

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bunch of other stuff.

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So, you know, french and italian and other

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things.

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I was curious about the other parts that I

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knew.

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So that was just for fun, though.

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That doesn't really diagnose anything.

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Moshe: Yeah, I mean, if you're into genealogy
or whatever, it's kind of nice to see where

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you come from.

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Or if you're adopted and you don't really know

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your birth parents, you might want to track
them down.

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Or if you are, you know, if you're looking for
relatives, you can pay some money and stick a

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swab inside your cheek and send it to a bunch
of people in a lab, and they can find your

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fifth cousin, once removed, who lives in some
country, introduces you to a great, great,

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great grand relative that you never knew
existed.

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Leah: So we're kind of rambling.

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I just want to verify.

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So Moshe and I have both done the 23 andme and
the ancestry for fun.

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That doesn't diagnose anything.

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Moshe: Yes. So the actual instance is sort of
getting back on topic.

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We engaged in genetic testing because we're
looking to increase our family.

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And, of course, Leah and I want to get the
testing done to.

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Well, let's backpedal that.

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We didn't actually want to get the testing

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done.

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It was.

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We were asked to get it done by the people
that we were Israel.

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Leah: That's kind of required because we're of
a certain age.

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Yeah.

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Moshe: Leah's a little bit on the older side.

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Still gorgeous, like.

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Like a fine wine.

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Leah: Thank you.

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Moshe: And I am like a different kind of wine.

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Anyway, the wine analogy doesn't work.

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But the point is, because of our age, which
isn't that big a deal in Israel, because

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people continue to have children until they're
physically not able to.

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Leah: But they like to do tests.

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Moshe: They want to know, just so you know,
what the chances are.

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And of course, they test for a variety of
genetic conditions, or what they suspect are

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conditions that have genetic links.

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Which brings us to the topic of the episode

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today.

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Leah: Right.

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So that is the medical testing that we've

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done, mostly me.

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So I had nine or ten vials of blood taken, and

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that is more of a diagnostic thing in terms of
that.

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So if mom has issues, then they'll check dad.

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If dad and mom have issues, then they'll check

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baby or fetus or embryo or zygote.

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Moshe: And we had some conversations which
we'll get into.

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Leah: We'll get into it.

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So my first question to you, Moshe, is can

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genetic testing diagnose ASD?

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Moshe: The answer to that question is
possibly.

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Leah: So the answer to that question from my
research is probably not.

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Yes, at best.

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Moshe: Sometimes they can detect some genetic
links that might lead to a higher instance of

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people developing ASD, but they can't
definitively state this gene here causes

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autism.

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Leah: So they will never actually diagnose
autism based on their genetic or blood tests,

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ever.

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Not without it being in conjunction with the

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formal testing which you and Avram have both
had.

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Right.

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So the 802 that you filled out and the other

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diagnostic tests that you filled out and the
tests for ADHD and stuff, which are written

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tests which you're supposed to do partially on
your own, partially with your partner or

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parent if you have one.

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Because sometimes we're not the best at

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knowing how we actually act or feel about
things.

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Moshe: Autism is weird, though, because unlike
some other genetic conditions, because if a

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child is in utero or a child is newly born or
a child is developing, you can look at them

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sometimes and go, well, that baby has trisomy,
that baby has this, that baby has something.

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There's definitely something going on with
that baby.

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But autism is one of those conditions that
they label as invisible in that you could look

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at a baby and you can't definitively look at
the baby and go, you see right there, that

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autism right there.

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Leah: So that's why essentially, you need the
written tests combined with somebody actually

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observing you.

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So somebody who's trained in this.

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Right?
So either a neurologist or psychologist or a

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psychiatrist or a therapist, or in the case of
Avram, a developmental pediatrician which is

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an extremely specialized specialty, and they
will diagnose you with autism spectrum

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disorder and often ADHD as well.

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And then they can investigate genetic reasons.

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But our question ultimately is why?
Because once you've been diagnosed with

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autism, they're sort of very early on in terms
of defining which genes actually might cause

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autism.

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And even if you find them, it's not going to

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improve your quality of life, your treatment,
or find a cure.

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So ultimately, we feel like the genetic
investigation of autism is essentially for the

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curiosity of the scientists who are doing it.

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Moshe: And there's a few things that we saw or
read about in terms of some of the testing

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that was done and the reasons behind it.

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Leah: There are some useful ones.

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So if they can diagnose a syndrome that has

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ASD as one of the symptoms, then it can
absolutely help the treatment of that person,

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because those often come with other health
problems.

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Right?
So, like heart problems or, you know, walking

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problems or whatever.

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So there are a few syndromes that tend to have

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ASD as a symptom or a much higher level of ASD
within them, and those can be determined

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genetically.

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But just for your garden variety ASD, I don't

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know.

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We're not so sure how we feel about that.

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Moshe: Yes, because ASD is interesting in that
it's a condition, or if you use the actual

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term, it's a disorder, but it's also a symptom
of other disorders.

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Or like Leah says, it's a. There's certain
other syndromes, genetically caused syndromes

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that allow a person to have a very high or
almost, you know, inevitable diagnosis of

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autism.

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And if you can identify autism from a genetic

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component, and you know that this child has
this syndrome, which also comes with physical

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things or predispositions for kidney issues or
heart issues or digestive issues, and you can

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go, okay, then.

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Leah: You can test the heart and the kidneys.

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Moshe: That kid is autistic.

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But also they have this, which means we have

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to check these things, which.

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Leah: Is the only reason we honestly found,
after really looking into it, that we thought

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was even somewhat necessary for genetic
testing for ASD.

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Another reason why we find it so unnecessary
is because there are currently 1000 single

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genes and 17 genetic regions.

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So when you talk about genetic regions, I

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believe they're talking about, help me here,
not genes, but chromosomes.

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They're talking about chromosomes that have
been associated with ASD.

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Therefore, if you can find a thousand of
something that may or may not cause something,

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is it actually really that useful to you?

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Moshe: It's really one of those instances
going back to the analogy of ancestry.com,

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where you run your genetics through their
filter and you go, well, this particular

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person has, you know, a certain percentile of
shared chromosomes or genes or whatever with

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you.

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So it's quite likely that they're a cousin of

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yours.

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And your answer to that would be, oh,

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interesting.

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And then that's really, that's really

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inaccurate.

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Leah: Because I have an aunt who I know is my
aunt, right.

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And genetically they said she is a close
relative of yours.

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She might be your aunt, your sister, or your
mother.

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Moshe: Right.

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Leah: So it's.

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It's. It's not like a targeted thing, the way

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people think or the way they show it in the
movies.

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Moshe: It's kind of like a shotgun versus a
laser.

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You kind of have a whole range of potentials
versus a. This is 100% unreservedly the case.

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Leah: So as of 2022, only three to 40% of
people will get a genetic diagnosis.

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So they've already done the eight O's, two.

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They've already done, you know, being seen by

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a neurologist.

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They've already gotten that diagnosis on

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paper, and then they'll look at their genes,
and only three to 40% of those people will

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they find a genetic diagnosis.

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Moshe: Right.

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Leah: Now, does that mean they don't have a
genetic predisposition?

284
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No. What it means is that currently genetics
is very limited.

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They don't actually know what they're looking
for.

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So if you don't look at the part of the genes
or the chromosomes that are causing the

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00:15:35,980 --> 00:15:37,674
issues, then you're not going to see it.

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So it's going to come up as a non test or a

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negative test.

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00:15:41,062 --> 00:15:42,206
It doesn't mean it's not there.

291
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It just means they can't find it or they don't
know what they're looking for.

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Right.

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Moshe: And that's why we actually saw a video
that said that if you don't get a diagnosis of

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a genetic, genetic autism, then you actually
can come back in a few years and test again.

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Because they are still so early in the stages
of identifying genetic links to autism that

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constantly new research is being.

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Is being reached.

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And today they might say, you don't have a
genetic link to autism, but then in ten years

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they might go, oh, see, that gene is what we
now know causes, you know, causes autism, but

300
00:16:21,272 --> 00:16:22,224
it's not there.

301
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Leah: So you're.

302
00:16:22,904 --> 00:16:27,232
Moshe: It's. It's, for lack of a better term,
a **** shoot, because you never know if the,

303
00:16:27,288 --> 00:16:32,062
the negative you're getting is a definitive no
or if it's a not right now type of thing.

304
00:16:32,158 --> 00:16:32,662
Leah: Exactly.

305
00:16:32,718 --> 00:16:34,222
Either way, it's not a no, because if a

306
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psychiatrist has diagnosed you with ASD, you
have ASD.

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00:16:37,670 --> 00:16:41,702
If you meet the criteria, you have it,
regardless of whether your genes say you do or

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00:16:41,718 --> 00:16:42,206
not.

309
00:16:42,350 --> 00:16:48,374
Moshe: And that is essentially what they told
me because I have a formal diagnosis of

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00:16:48,494 --> 00:16:51,354
autism, of ASD and ADHD.

311
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And then when we start talking about genetic

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00:16:55,006 --> 00:16:57,534
testing, it was like, okay, so you have your
diagnosis.

313
00:16:57,574 --> 00:16:58,512
That's wonderful.

314
00:16:58,678 --> 00:17:00,764
You should probably also investigate your

315
00:17:00,804 --> 00:17:04,184
genetic links that might have caused your
autism.

316
00:17:04,684 --> 00:17:09,564
And we had a discussion about it, and again,
it really came back to the question of why,

317
00:17:09,724 --> 00:17:10,588
what's the point?

318
00:17:10,676 --> 00:17:11,436
Leah: And the answer.

319
00:17:11,500 --> 00:17:14,356
So geneticists don't like to say this, okay?

320
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:17,292
They will sit with you and they will say,
well, it's for your health.

321
00:17:17,348 --> 00:17:20,748
It's to make sure for your general health,
it's to see for the health of your offspring.

322
00:17:20,796 --> 00:17:23,516
It's to see family stuff.

323
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:25,996
And then eventually they'll start using terms

324
00:17:26,060 --> 00:17:27,645
like family planning.

325
00:17:27,819 --> 00:17:29,777
And then eventually, if you push them enough,

326
00:17:29,825 --> 00:17:35,377
they will tell you, so that you could exclude
embryos or so that you could decide whether

327
00:17:35,425 --> 00:17:41,561
you really want to mix those genetics together
to see, you know, if the baby is going to be

328
00:17:41,617 --> 00:17:42,993
functional, you know, healthy.

329
00:17:43,033 --> 00:17:44,545
They like to use the word healthy.

330
00:17:44,689 --> 00:17:45,769
If the baby is going to be.

331
00:17:45,801 --> 00:17:51,793
Moshe: Healthy, if you can, if you're
fortunate enough to be fertile, then you can

332
00:17:51,913 --> 00:17:57,298
essentially do the things that, you know, men
and women do to get pregnant.

333
00:17:57,466 --> 00:18:01,026
And then the baby comes out and it's there.

334
00:18:01,210 --> 00:18:02,978
There's not a whole lot you can do about it.

335
00:18:03,066 --> 00:18:09,490
But if you're going through more designer
methods like IVF or other things, then you're

336
00:18:09,522 --> 00:18:16,634
essentially taking a natural process and
making it into a moral debate.

337
00:18:16,754 --> 00:18:23,874
Because what they're really asking you is if
you're going through IVF and you are creating

338
00:18:25,294 --> 00:18:32,182
a certain number of viable embryos and they're
just sitting there, do you want us to have the

339
00:18:32,198 --> 00:18:37,230
ability to look at them and go, well, that one
doesn't have a genetic predisposition for

340
00:18:37,262 --> 00:18:37,678
autism.

341
00:18:37,766 --> 00:18:38,910
That one does.

342
00:18:39,062 --> 00:18:44,390
So we're going to take the one that doesn't
because you don't want to give that

343
00:18:44,542 --> 00:18:45,574
opportunity to your child.

344
00:18:45,614 --> 00:18:48,746
Leah: So essentially, what they're talking
about, and that's eugenics, ultimately, is

345
00:18:48,770 --> 00:18:49,218
eugenics.

346
00:18:49,266 --> 00:18:50,074
Moshe: That's all it is.

347
00:18:50,154 --> 00:18:54,938
Leah: And that's the only reason other than
the, you know, syndromatic with other health

348
00:18:54,986 --> 00:19:01,154
problems that we could see that people would
want to do genetic testing for ASD or ADHD or

349
00:19:01,194 --> 00:19:06,706
any non life threatening difference that they
would want to weed out of their family and

350
00:19:06,770 --> 00:19:09,554
there are people who absolutely would want to
do that.

351
00:19:09,714 --> 00:19:14,054
And I have opinions, but I'm not going to pass
moral judgment.

352
00:19:14,494 --> 00:19:17,374
Moshe: And I mean, I have opinions, too, and I
can speak from first hand.

353
00:19:17,414 --> 00:19:19,550
Leah: Experience, but I mean, we're jews.

354
00:19:19,582 --> 00:19:20,790
We know what eugenics is.

355
00:19:20,862 --> 00:19:26,614
Moshe: Yes, unfortunately, eugenics is
something that the jewish people throughout

356
00:19:26,654 --> 00:19:31,006
history have a very long and bad history with
because it's something that happened.

357
00:19:31,030 --> 00:19:35,790
And, you know, anyway, we're not going to get
into it because this is a podcast about

358
00:19:35,822 --> 00:19:42,672
neurodivergency, not, you know, genetics, but
essentially look up, you know, Doctor Mengele

359
00:19:42,848 --> 00:19:44,704
and the people who conducted.

360
00:19:44,784 --> 00:19:46,224
Leah: Doctor Asperger.

361
00:19:46,384 --> 00:19:48,424
Moshe: Yes, Doctor Asperger.

362
00:19:48,464 --> 00:19:52,720
People who essentially, their job was to

363
00:19:52,752 --> 00:20:00,608
either try to find what makes a person fit and
what makes a person unfit and then what to do

364
00:20:00,656 --> 00:20:02,400
with the ones who are unfit.

365
00:20:02,552 --> 00:20:05,472
And that is, unfortunately, something that's

366
00:20:05,488 --> 00:20:06,676
still happening today.

367
00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:09,184
Because if you.

368
00:20:09,684 --> 00:20:12,988
And again, this is a podcast about autism and
emergency.

369
00:20:13,036 --> 00:20:14,708
It's not a podcast about religion.

370
00:20:14,836 --> 00:20:18,604
But if you are the kind of person who

371
00:20:18,644 --> 00:20:19,504
believes.

372
00:20:20,364 --> 00:20:21,820
I don't want to get into pro choice or pro

373
00:20:21,852 --> 00:20:27,396
life, but if you're the kind of person that
believes that a child is a child is a child,

374
00:20:27,580 --> 00:20:37,022
then you have to decide if you're comfortable
with, you know, that kind of tinkering with

375
00:20:37,118 --> 00:20:39,030
essentially what amounts to God.

376
00:20:39,182 --> 00:20:41,886
And that is not something that everyone is

377
00:20:41,910 --> 00:20:46,430
going to want to do and not something that,
honestly, I feel should be available if

378
00:20:46,502 --> 00:20:47,078
there's a chance.

379
00:20:47,126 --> 00:20:50,174
Because, and again, this is a slippery slope,

380
00:20:50,254 --> 00:20:52,486
and I'm trying very hard not to get into it.

381
00:20:52,590 --> 00:20:57,110
But if you are looking for a predisposition

382
00:20:57,182 --> 00:21:01,858
genetically for something that will cause the
child immeasurable pain, reduces lifespan,

383
00:21:01,906 --> 00:21:03,834
cause them constant health issues like tay
Sachs.

384
00:21:03,874 --> 00:21:05,050
Leah: That's why we test for that, then.

385
00:21:05,082 --> 00:21:07,770
Moshe: You'Re going to go, you know what?
I get it.

386
00:21:07,802 --> 00:21:12,834
But also, I would rather have a child that I
can, you know, who's going to live a healthy,

387
00:21:12,874 --> 00:21:16,962
hopefully long life versus a child, you know,
that I'm going to take a chance that.

388
00:21:17,018 --> 00:21:21,066
That I'm going to have a child that may end up
having a life of pain and suffering and

389
00:21:21,090 --> 00:21:22,214
drastically reduced.

390
00:21:22,714 --> 00:21:24,434
But autism is not like that.

391
00:21:24,554 --> 00:21:25,734
I'm autistic.

392
00:21:26,424 --> 00:21:27,680
Avram is autistic.

393
00:21:27,752 --> 00:21:34,536
There are many autistics out there, except for
being somewhat, you know, I don't know, they

394
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:34,888
have some.

395
00:21:34,936 --> 00:21:37,912
Some processing issues, but it's not fatal.

396
00:21:38,048 --> 00:21:39,520
It's not causing them pain.

397
00:21:39,592 --> 00:21:42,504
It's not causing them to be, you know,

398
00:21:42,624 --> 00:21:44,168
challenged in some way.

399
00:21:44,336 --> 00:21:50,084
And when you have a child, any child, you

400
00:21:50,664 --> 00:21:53,880
don't know, if that child's gonna sleep
through the night, it's gonna have digestive

401
00:21:53,912 --> 00:21:57,792
issues, it's gonna be lactose intolerant, it's
gonna have colic, is going to have frequent

402
00:21:57,808 --> 00:22:02,124
ear infections, it's going to have asthma, is
going to have any number of conditions.

403
00:22:02,504 --> 00:22:12,400
So you're just basically, if you want to go
along the idea of creating a superman or

404
00:22:12,432 --> 00:22:16,720
superwoman kind of child, then what's the
point anymore?

405
00:22:16,792 --> 00:22:20,088
Leah: I mean, I have a very strong genetic
predisposition to asthma.

406
00:22:20,136 --> 00:22:21,080
My mother's asthmatic.

407
00:22:21,112 --> 00:22:22,414
I'm asthmatic, right?

408
00:22:22,504 --> 00:22:23,818
Our daughter's asthmatic.

409
00:22:23,946 --> 00:22:25,762
Moshe could look at me and say, do I really

410
00:22:25,818 --> 00:22:32,634
want those asthma genes in my baby?
And that's kind of where we feel that we're at

411
00:22:32,714 --> 00:22:37,202
in terms of the autism genes?
Well, yes, it definitely causes people to have

412
00:22:37,218 --> 00:22:38,282
a harder life.

413
00:22:38,458 --> 00:22:40,354
Yes, it definitely causes.

414
00:22:40,434 --> 00:22:42,842
I'm not minimizing the struggles of people
with autism.

415
00:22:42,898 --> 00:22:44,354
Please don't take it that way.

416
00:22:44,514 --> 00:22:47,114
But is it worthy of saying this person doesn't

417
00:22:47,154 --> 00:22:51,060
deserve to exist?
I mean, I would ask an autistic, ask any

418
00:22:51,092 --> 00:22:54,156
autistic, do you like your life?
Are you happy that you're alive?

419
00:22:54,340 --> 00:22:57,340
And someone say no, but a lot would say yes.

420
00:22:57,452 --> 00:23:02,460
Moshe: Unfortunately, people with autism are
at a higher instance of mental illness and

421
00:23:02,492 --> 00:23:03,284
suicide.

422
00:23:03,444 --> 00:23:06,260
But I think that has far more to do with a

423
00:23:06,292 --> 00:23:10,020
lack of support versus a constant struggle.

424
00:23:10,052 --> 00:23:13,004
There was an article in the paper in Canada

425
00:23:13,164 --> 00:23:20,260
not too long ago about a woman who was trying
to do the medical assistance and dying program

426
00:23:20,332 --> 00:23:21,916
because she was autistic.

427
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,980
And it really kind of horrified us because to

428
00:23:26,012 --> 00:23:30,484
my understanding, again, I'm autistic, my son
is autistic.

429
00:23:30,604 --> 00:23:32,116
And sometimes it's difficult.

430
00:23:32,220 --> 00:23:33,308
Sometimes it's hard.

431
00:23:33,436 --> 00:23:36,212
Sometimes, you know, it's challenging.

432
00:23:36,388 --> 00:23:40,332
But would you, is autism something that you

433
00:23:40,348 --> 00:23:44,900
would be willing to look at a child and go,
you don't deserve to live because you might be

434
00:23:44,932 --> 00:23:51,212
autistic?
I would argue no. And for me, I believe that I

435
00:23:51,228 --> 00:23:55,892
am in a position to make that call, because,
again, I am autistic.

436
00:23:56,028 --> 00:24:02,340
And I would very much like to have been
allowed to continue to live if my mother had

437
00:24:02,372 --> 00:24:03,544
been given the choice.

438
00:24:04,364 --> 00:24:06,148
So I am not a mistake.

439
00:24:06,276 --> 00:24:07,516
I am not an accident.

440
00:24:07,660 --> 00:24:09,076
I am not an error.

441
00:24:09,220 --> 00:24:10,564
I am a human being.

442
00:24:10,644 --> 00:24:13,116
And while I do have my own challenges and my

443
00:24:13,140 --> 00:24:20,720
own difficulties, I have a lot to contribute,
and I believe that my life is valuable.

444
00:24:20,872 --> 00:24:26,528
And the life of any child who has the chance
of developing autism is just as valuable.

445
00:24:26,696 --> 00:24:28,544
We are not trying to create a super race.

446
00:24:28,584 --> 00:24:31,128
We're just trying to have a family, right?

447
00:24:31,296 --> 00:24:33,408
And that's really what this is about.

448
00:24:33,456 --> 00:24:37,240
Leah: With all the diversity and challenges
that come with that, because every human being

449
00:24:37,312 --> 00:24:38,824
is born diverse.

450
00:24:38,864 --> 00:24:41,932
That's what sexual reproduction does, right,

451
00:24:42,068 --> 00:24:44,140
versus, you know, cloning or whatever.

452
00:24:44,332 --> 00:24:47,844
And everyone has their own challenges in life.

453
00:24:47,964 --> 00:24:49,064
Moshe: Everyone does.

454
00:24:49,364 --> 00:24:51,132
If your skin is a little bit lighter, you

455
00:24:51,148 --> 00:24:56,508
can't be in the sun as much if your eyes are
blue, if you have a predisposition for.

456
00:24:56,636 --> 00:25:00,948
Leah: I like Moshe's blue eyes, but I'm not
going to choose our child's eye color.

457
00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:04,748
Moshe: Diabetes, like, there's a lot of
variables that a child could develop and you

458
00:25:04,756 --> 00:25:09,036
could go through all the testing and try and
theoretically weed out every little thing that

459
00:25:09,060 --> 00:25:12,580
they have the ability to test, and then boom,
there's like something else that they didn't

460
00:25:12,612 --> 00:25:13,788
expect that comes up anyway.

461
00:25:13,836 --> 00:25:16,348
Leah: But how many things do they not have the
ability to test?

462
00:25:16,396 --> 00:25:20,844
If you talk to, again, an honest geneticist,
they will tell you there are so many things

463
00:25:20,884 --> 00:25:23,868
they don't have the ability to test because
they haven't studied it yet, because they

464
00:25:23,876 --> 00:25:26,100
haven't found it yet, because they don't know
exactly.

465
00:25:26,132 --> 00:25:27,828
The human genome is huge.

466
00:25:27,996 --> 00:25:29,104
Moshe: It really is.

467
00:25:29,564 --> 00:25:33,196
Leah: Speaking of which, speaking of mistakes
and spelling errors in the genome, let's get

468
00:25:33,220 --> 00:25:34,304
back to genetics.

469
00:25:35,244 --> 00:25:37,692
So there are two types of changes that you

470
00:25:37,708 --> 00:25:38,860
could see in some of these genes.

471
00:25:38,932 --> 00:25:42,326
So basically, against the expense, one is

472
00:25:42,350 --> 00:25:45,214
called monogenic and the other is called
polygenic.

473
00:25:45,254 --> 00:25:49,594
Now, mono means one, poly means money, just
for those of you who are out there.

474
00:25:50,014 --> 00:25:55,878
So monogenic changes means that there is one
change in the genes, right?

475
00:25:55,926 --> 00:26:00,566
So one gene is off, it's knocked over, it's
misspelled, it's the wrong letter, and then

476
00:26:00,590 --> 00:26:05,566
it'll maybe knock over another gene further
down the line and cause some sort of a

477
00:26:05,590 --> 00:26:06,326
diagnosis.

478
00:26:06,430 --> 00:26:09,430
So, you know, a syndrome or an issue like

479
00:26:09,462 --> 00:26:15,470
asthma, like I have, or an issue like cancer,
for example.

480
00:26:15,662 --> 00:26:22,022
And then there are polygenic changes, which
are multiple but subtle changes in many, many

481
00:26:22,078 --> 00:26:27,514
genes that will cause a very complex disorder
like autism.

482
00:26:27,814 --> 00:26:34,134
And they just don't really have the
technology, truthfully, to look in detail at

483
00:26:34,174 --> 00:26:35,788
all of those little changes.

484
00:26:35,926 --> 00:26:39,896
So it may be the way genes work right there.

485
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:45,696
They're lettered and you expect, you know, an
a to be here, a g to be there, a t to be

486
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:46,192
there.

487
00:26:46,328 --> 00:26:49,032
And it may look like you're agtagt, and then

488
00:26:49,048 --> 00:26:54,096
suddenly there's another t there somewhere,
and you have many of those in a line, and it

489
00:26:54,120 --> 00:26:57,896
could cause nothing or it could cause autism,
or it could cause.

490
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:01,208
I don't know, skin rashes, I don't know.

491
00:27:01,216 --> 00:27:02,498
It could cause anything.

492
00:27:02,696 --> 00:27:03,198
Moshe: Right.

493
00:27:03,286 --> 00:27:05,834
There's certain genetics that are very clear.

494
00:27:06,774 --> 00:27:12,694
Leah: The ability to do that reliably, or they
do, but it costs a lot of money.

495
00:27:12,734 --> 00:27:14,678
And then you're looking at every single gene.

496
00:27:14,806 --> 00:27:16,646
And even then, if they don't know what that

497
00:27:16,670 --> 00:27:20,270
gene does, turned on or turned off, you're
going to have to go back in a few years

498
00:27:20,302 --> 00:27:21,854
anyway, once they've done more research.

499
00:27:21,974 --> 00:27:22,806
Moshe: Exactly.

500
00:27:22,950 --> 00:27:25,222
Certain things are very easy to detect.

501
00:27:25,318 --> 00:27:26,674
Certain things are not.

502
00:27:27,174 --> 00:27:30,084
Certain things are detected very simply

503
00:27:30,784 --> 00:27:32,256
through pure genetics.

504
00:27:32,360 --> 00:27:33,920
The reason that down syndrome.

505
00:27:33,952 --> 00:27:35,336
Down syndrome is a chromosome.

506
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:35,800
It is.

507
00:27:35,832 --> 00:27:37,536
Leah: Chromosomes are the big parts, right?

508
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,704
Moshe: So you get a certain number of
chromosomes from your mother and a certain

509
00:27:40,744 --> 00:27:41,696
number from your father.

510
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,124
Leah: I think they have an extra.

511
00:27:43,504 --> 00:27:48,656
Moshe: Now, what down syndrome is, down
syndrome's actual scientific name is trisomy

512
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:55,604
21, because on the 21st pair, there is three
genes instead of two.

513
00:27:55,704 --> 00:27:56,844
Leah: So they have 24.

514
00:27:56,924 --> 00:28:00,904
Moshe: They have 24 genes instead of 23.

515
00:28:01,404 --> 00:28:02,236
Again, 23.

516
00:28:02,260 --> 00:28:04,668
Andme is not called 23 me because it's a lucky
number.

517
00:28:04,756 --> 00:28:06,704
That's literally what you have.

518
00:28:07,244 --> 00:28:11,324
And on the 21st, whatever you want to call it,

519
00:28:11,364 --> 00:28:13,984
there's a third when there should only be two.

520
00:28:14,364 --> 00:28:15,548
And that is what causes.

521
00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:17,596
Leah: So one for mom, one from dad, and a
random.

522
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:23,956
Moshe: And then just like a random anomaly,
they have an extra chromosome, and it is a

523
00:28:23,980 --> 00:28:26,604
very clear link.

524
00:28:26,644 --> 00:28:29,068
Like, you could do a panel and go, there it is

525
00:28:29,116 --> 00:28:29,668
right there.

526
00:28:29,756 --> 00:28:34,476
Leah: And it's very easy to see because it's
on the chromosomal level, which is not the

527
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:35,948
individual genes, but it's sort.

528
00:28:35,956 --> 00:28:40,004
Moshe: Of the whole big picture and something
like fragile x, you could look at the X

529
00:28:40,044 --> 00:28:42,964
chromosome and see that little piece and go,
that's fragile x.

530
00:28:43,044 --> 00:28:44,260
Leah: We're going to talk about fragile x.

531
00:28:44,292 --> 00:28:46,028
Moshe: But autism, there's no.

532
00:28:46,196 --> 00:28:46,684
Leah: You can't.

533
00:28:46,724 --> 00:28:50,844
Moshe: You could look at all the genes and you
can't, like, look and go, oh, well, see there,

534
00:28:50,884 --> 00:28:53,264
right there is on that thing that means that
autism.

535
00:28:53,684 --> 00:28:57,780
Leah: Individual lettering within the
chromosomes, and it's very complex.

536
00:28:57,892 --> 00:28:59,788
Moshe: It's. They discussed it in the video.

537
00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:04,396
It's like looking at a book, and you have to

538
00:29:04,420 --> 00:29:10,884
basically open the book and go through every
recipe and find a spelling mistake in one

539
00:29:10,924 --> 00:29:15,956
recipe of one ingredient and go, see, that is
what's causing this.

540
00:29:16,020 --> 00:29:20,872
Leah: And in reality, our scientific ability
is more like looking at all the recipes and

541
00:29:20,888 --> 00:29:22,408
seeing whether or not they're cookies.

542
00:29:22,576 --> 00:29:23,024
Moshe: Right.

543
00:29:23,104 --> 00:29:26,768
Leah: But looking for spelling mistakes in the
individual ingredients is.

544
00:29:26,816 --> 00:29:28,320
It's very involved.

545
00:29:28,352 --> 00:29:29,976
It's possible, but it's very involved.

546
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,696
Moshe: And if you're looking at the 21st
shelf, and you go, there's three books there,

547
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:33,728
and there should be two.

548
00:29:33,856 --> 00:29:34,464
Leah: That's easy.

549
00:29:34,504 --> 00:29:35,680
Moshe: You can just look at it.

550
00:29:35,832 --> 00:29:37,440
You don't even have to do anything else.

551
00:29:37,552 --> 00:29:42,656
But with autism or with the potential for
autism as well as other syndromes or

552
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:46,700
disorders, you really have to go down, down
deep to the.

553
00:29:46,732 --> 00:29:51,132
Like, the actual letters and go, there's an a
there, and it should be a g, or whatever it

554
00:29:51,148 --> 00:29:51,276
is.

555
00:29:51,300 --> 00:29:52,212
I'm not a geneticist.

556
00:29:52,268 --> 00:29:55,484
Leah: And even then, they don't know what that
means because they haven't studied it.

557
00:29:55,524 --> 00:29:56,188
Moshe: That could be a thing.

558
00:29:56,236 --> 00:29:57,356
Leah: You're like, there's a g there, but.

559
00:29:57,380 --> 00:30:02,276
Moshe: We don't know what that does because
the truth is, and again, not trying to get

560
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:09,964
into religion here, but the fact that a human
being is created the way they are is super

561
00:30:10,044 --> 00:30:10,572
scientific.

562
00:30:10,628 --> 00:30:10,940
Leah: It is.

563
00:30:10,972 --> 00:30:11,704
Moshe: It is.

564
00:30:12,004 --> 00:30:13,780
It is, frankly, amazing.

565
00:30:13,932 --> 00:30:22,468
And the truth is that every single person on
earth has something a little bit off because

566
00:30:22,516 --> 00:30:27,580
you can't create that much complexity and not,
like, accidentally.

567
00:30:27,732 --> 00:30:30,764
Like, there's a thing there that should be
this nothing.

568
00:30:30,844 --> 00:30:31,788
It could be a nothing.

569
00:30:31,916 --> 00:30:34,412
It could be, you know, a little thing that

570
00:30:34,508 --> 00:30:39,356
adds an extra freckle to your skin or, like, a
streak of white in your hair that they don't

571
00:30:39,380 --> 00:30:40,356
know why it happened.

572
00:30:40,460 --> 00:30:43,124
Like, it could just be something so minute, so

573
00:30:43,204 --> 00:30:46,588
minor that, well, there's a genetic error.

574
00:30:46,716 --> 00:30:50,164
That genetic error makes, you know, my nails

575
00:30:50,244 --> 00:30:54,948
grow longer than normal, but that genetic
error makes my brain not work.

576
00:30:54,996 --> 00:30:57,724
Leah: Like you're getting into Darwinism and
the survival of the fittest.

577
00:30:57,764 --> 00:31:00,220
Right?
Genetic errors are what cause evolution.

578
00:31:00,332 --> 00:31:00,820
Moshe: Exactly.

579
00:31:00,852 --> 00:31:02,780
Leah: It's just that they're beneficial
genetic errors.

580
00:31:02,812 --> 00:31:04,264
Moshe: Some are, some aren't.

581
00:31:04,564 --> 00:31:06,052
And again, that's like, there's lots of

582
00:31:06,068 --> 00:31:08,344
podcasts about evolution and darwinism.

583
00:31:10,304 --> 00:31:16,192
Leah: But, yeah, so that is where we're going,
is really, again, science.

584
00:31:16,288 --> 00:31:19,776
When you see it on tv, when you see it in the
crime dramas, when you see it in the medical

585
00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:23,792
dramas, it makes it look like we really
understand more than we do.

586
00:31:23,848 --> 00:31:30,724
But our ability to really understand genetics
on that level is quite limited.

587
00:31:31,184 --> 00:31:32,284
Moshe: It really is.

588
00:31:33,264 --> 00:31:36,376
We are in 2024 at the time of this recording,

589
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,678
5783, if you follow the.

590
00:31:38,856 --> 00:31:39,834
But we are still.

591
00:31:39,914 --> 00:31:42,754
So we are still, like.

592
00:31:42,834 --> 00:31:46,854
So we're in the dark in the beginning stages.

593
00:31:47,514 --> 00:31:53,106
There was a. There was an article that I read
in the science journal, actually, this morning

594
00:31:53,290 --> 00:32:01,074
while we were waiting for the bus, and it said
something to the effect that they took a

595
00:32:01,114 --> 00:32:09,758
square millimeter of the human brain and tried
to map it, and they discovered that the amount

596
00:32:09,846 --> 00:32:16,326
of data that fits in that square millimeter is
in the trillions upon trillions.

597
00:32:16,470 --> 00:32:26,742
And that if they actually converted the human
brain to an inorganic data like field, it

598
00:32:26,758 --> 00:32:32,026
would take, I think, something like 147 acres
worth of computers to fill that amount of

599
00:32:32,050 --> 00:32:32,614
data.

600
00:32:33,074 --> 00:32:37,250
Leah: And then people are complaining because
your processor is a little slow.

601
00:32:37,402 --> 00:32:37,874
Moshe: Exactly.

602
00:32:37,914 --> 00:32:38,690
Leah: It's crazy.

603
00:32:38,762 --> 00:32:40,834
Moshe: The human brain, the square millimeter.

604
00:32:40,994 --> 00:32:44,010
A square millimeter of the human brain holds

605
00:32:44,042 --> 00:32:47,466
more data than any computer that exists today.

606
00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:48,402
Leah: And it would have to.

607
00:32:48,498 --> 00:32:50,906
It would, because you live for 100 years,

608
00:32:51,010 --> 00:32:55,210
maybe, if you're lucky, and you have to
process all those memories, all that

609
00:32:55,242 --> 00:33:00,560
information, everything you've learned,
languages, you know, people, names, dates,

610
00:33:00,632 --> 00:33:01,032
anyway.

611
00:33:01,088 --> 00:33:01,568
You know.

612
00:33:01,656 --> 00:33:06,552
You know what I'm saying?
So one of the things that the geneticists in

613
00:33:06,568 --> 00:33:12,496
the video that we watched discussed was one
benefit of getting genetic testing, they say,

614
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,072
is so that the parents of children with ASD
don't feel guilty about giving them ASD.

615
00:33:18,208 --> 00:33:21,960
So essentially, it says, it's not your fault
that your child has ASD.

616
00:33:21,992 --> 00:33:26,794
It's their genes, or so that they can pin it
on the dad instead of the mom, or the mom

617
00:33:26,834 --> 00:33:27,490
instead of the dad.

618
00:33:27,522 --> 00:33:29,282
Or it's nobody, or it's a grandma.

619
00:33:29,458 --> 00:33:32,214
So what were our thoughts on that, Moshe?

620
00:33:32,834 --> 00:33:40,626
Moshe: I feel like science is such an
important field, and specifically the field of

621
00:33:40,650 --> 00:33:46,506
genetic research, when it comes to discovering
cures for diseases and discovering causes for

622
00:33:46,570 --> 00:33:52,102
conditions, are so important to the future of
medicine and science and chemistry and all

623
00:33:52,118 --> 00:33:52,862
that stuff.

624
00:33:53,038 --> 00:33:56,310
I don't know that relieving guilt is a worthy

625
00:33:56,342 --> 00:33:56,790
endeavor.

626
00:33:56,862 --> 00:33:57,470
Leah: I don't.

627
00:33:57,582 --> 00:34:00,758
Okay, so I produced a child with significant

628
00:34:00,886 --> 00:34:05,102
challenges for autism, and I don't know that
I've ever, like, woken up in the morning and

629
00:34:05,118 --> 00:34:07,234
gone, I feel so guilty about that.

630
00:34:08,814 --> 00:34:10,574
I don't understand the concept.

631
00:34:10,734 --> 00:34:11,630
Moshe: Okay, so.

632
00:34:11,742 --> 00:34:14,198
And again, this is a bit of a strange tangent,

633
00:34:14,326 --> 00:34:19,592
but there was a really good video by Rabbi
Lord Jonathan Sacks, who I greatly admire,

634
00:34:19,648 --> 00:34:25,632
blessed memory, because he passed away a few
years ago, and it was to do with antisemitism.

635
00:34:25,808 --> 00:34:30,440
And as part of the video, anti semitism is
anti jewish racism.

636
00:34:30,512 --> 00:34:36,400
By the way, part of the video, they were
discussing why anti semitism exists.

637
00:34:36,552 --> 00:34:37,768
Again, a weird tangent that.

638
00:34:37,776 --> 00:34:38,564
I have a point.

639
00:34:39,024 --> 00:34:43,214
And they said that when it comes to.

640
00:34:44,714 --> 00:34:48,562
When it comes to a negative situation, when it

641
00:34:48,578 --> 00:34:52,714
comes to a negative event, because they're
talking about the origins of antisemitism,

642
00:34:52,874 --> 00:34:55,138
there's two ways you can approach it.

643
00:34:55,266 --> 00:34:57,906
You can say, what can we do about this?

644
00:34:58,010 --> 00:35:03,018
Or who can we blame for this?
And when you're looking at a thing like

645
00:35:03,066 --> 00:35:09,704
autism, or you're looking at a thing, like
anything genetic, really.

646
00:35:11,404 --> 00:35:18,364
If you have a parent that has a child who has
autism, there's a lot of resources out there,

647
00:35:18,404 --> 00:35:21,104
especially if it's detected when the child is
young.

648
00:35:22,164 --> 00:35:28,076
It's very difficult sometimes to detect in
babies until you start reaching milestones or

649
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:30,340
not reaching them, but it's not true.

650
00:35:30,372 --> 00:35:31,396
Leah: They've actually done stuff.

651
00:35:31,460 --> 00:35:32,628
Moshe: They do fantastic.

652
00:35:32,756 --> 00:35:35,884
Leah: We can look them up and maybe post them
somewhere.

653
00:35:36,004 --> 00:35:40,052
But they've done studies where you can
actually diagnose autism in babies as young as

654
00:35:40,068 --> 00:35:44,420
a month because they track eye movements, you
know, the whole eye contact thing.

655
00:35:44,492 --> 00:35:45,464
Moshe: That's incredible.

656
00:35:45,844 --> 00:35:48,116
I'm really interested, like, advances in

657
00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:48,804
titans.

658
00:35:48,924 --> 00:35:50,588
Leah: But again, that's not genetic science.

659
00:35:50,636 --> 00:35:52,100
That's observational science.

660
00:35:52,212 --> 00:35:54,532
Right?
ASD is an observational diagnosis.

661
00:35:54,588 --> 00:35:55,796
Moshe: So if you have.

662
00:35:55,940 --> 00:35:57,020
Okay, so you have.

663
00:35:57,052 --> 00:36:03,610
You are a new mother or you're a new father,
your new parents, and you have a baby, and the

664
00:36:03,642 --> 00:36:09,970
testing like you described is done, and the
baby has now conclusively been, you know,

665
00:36:10,042 --> 00:36:10,522
designated.

666
00:36:10,578 --> 00:36:12,682
This child likely has autism.

667
00:36:12,858 --> 00:36:18,994
There's a number of different ways that you
would react to that news or what you would

668
00:36:19,114 --> 00:36:20,498
take away from that.

669
00:36:20,626 --> 00:36:22,234
And I don't know that it's.

670
00:36:22,314 --> 00:36:30,652
That it's healthy or even responsible to
pander to the argument that one of their main

671
00:36:30,708 --> 00:36:35,212
priorities is, whose fault is this?
Your child has autism.

672
00:36:35,348 --> 00:36:37,260
That's unfortunate.

673
00:36:37,372 --> 00:36:38,812
I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of things we

674
00:36:38,828 --> 00:36:39,076
can do.

675
00:36:39,100 --> 00:36:40,036
What can we do to help them?

676
00:36:40,060 --> 00:36:42,604
What can we do to help support them?
What can we do to guide them?

677
00:36:42,684 --> 00:36:46,460
What allowances can we make?
What can we do to make their life easier?

678
00:36:46,572 --> 00:36:48,100
Not, oh, they have autism.

679
00:36:48,252 --> 00:36:49,284
Well, is this my fault?

680
00:36:49,324 --> 00:36:50,756
Is this his fault?
Whose fault is this?

681
00:36:50,780 --> 00:36:51,708
Leah: And again, why.

682
00:36:51,796 --> 00:36:53,404
Why is autism one of those things?

683
00:36:53,444 --> 00:36:55,060
Because it's so not nice.

684
00:36:55,212 --> 00:36:57,676
Could you guys picture again, our baby has

685
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:00,908
their first asthma attack, and moshe goes,
well, this is clearly your fault.

686
00:37:01,036 --> 00:37:03,020
Everybody would say, he's so mean.

687
00:37:03,212 --> 00:37:04,204
So why would.

688
00:37:04,284 --> 00:37:05,588
Why would autism be anything?

689
00:37:05,636 --> 00:37:09,504
Moshe: Asthma, typo and taequin, diabetes,
anything.

690
00:37:10,884 --> 00:37:17,940
When you're in a position, especially as a
parent, where you're essentially blaming your

691
00:37:17,972 --> 00:37:24,700
child's conditions for, you know, on certain
things because, well, okay, so did I do

692
00:37:24,732 --> 00:37:26,460
something wrong?
Because, I mean, if you're a new mother,

693
00:37:26,492 --> 00:37:27,348
you're gonna be worried.

694
00:37:27,436 --> 00:37:28,180
Should I drink this?

695
00:37:28,212 --> 00:37:29,540
Should I eat this?
Maybe I took a pill.

696
00:37:29,572 --> 00:37:31,988
Leah: I shouldn't have taken autism.

697
00:37:32,036 --> 00:37:34,236
Like, you know, the whole vaccine thing, which

698
00:37:34,260 --> 00:37:35,460
has been debunked, by the way.

699
00:37:35,492 --> 00:37:36,572
Please don't write me.

700
00:37:36,628 --> 00:37:37,404
Don't write me.

701
00:37:37,484 --> 00:37:38,944
I don't want to hear about it?

702
00:37:39,804 --> 00:37:44,020
The whole vaccine thing and the whole, oh,
well, nurture versus nature and did you expose

703
00:37:44,052 --> 00:37:46,698
your child to mercury?
And did you eat tuna while you were pregnant?

704
00:37:46,756 --> 00:37:51,254
Did you drink caffeine?
Like, there was a lot of those things around

705
00:37:51,294 --> 00:37:53,646
that tried to blame the mom in the pregnancy.

706
00:37:53,790 --> 00:37:55,710
And the reality is there's some environmental

707
00:37:55,742 --> 00:37:57,934
factors, but the vast majority of it is
genetic.

708
00:37:57,974 --> 00:37:59,674
We just don't understand why.

709
00:37:59,974 --> 00:38:04,838
Moshe: And, yeah, and again, as we said at the
beginning of the episode, there is a

710
00:38:04,886 --> 00:38:12,354
beneficial reason to do genetic testing,
either before the case of.

711
00:38:14,024 --> 00:38:24,776
Of autism being discovered or possibly after
and her daughter came home from school, or if

712
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:30,600
you're in the case of you have a child and the
child is now out and about and you've

713
00:38:30,632 --> 00:38:34,324
diagnosed them as autistic, you're not.

714
00:38:35,184 --> 00:38:36,680
If you're still at the point where you're

715
00:38:36,712 --> 00:38:43,484
trying to decide whose fault it is, then
that's not helping you as parents, and it's

716
00:38:43,524 --> 00:38:44,948
certainly not helping the child.

717
00:38:45,076 --> 00:38:46,900
Do you think your child cares whose.

718
00:38:46,932 --> 00:38:48,420
Leah: Fault it is that they have autism?

719
00:38:48,532 --> 00:38:49,468
Moshe: They don't care.

720
00:38:49,636 --> 00:38:52,420
Leah: They just know that that's something I
kind of do.

721
00:38:52,452 --> 00:38:57,180
Look at your family members and go, oh, yeah,
oh, yeah, that's the autistic one.

722
00:38:57,212 --> 00:38:58,124
That's where you got it from.

723
00:38:58,164 --> 00:39:00,076
We kind of do, but it's more of a fun game we

724
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:00,452
play.

725
00:39:00,548 --> 00:39:04,464
Moshe: Yes, because when you have autism, it's
very easy to.

726
00:39:04,844 --> 00:39:08,300
To get to that point where you can kind of
make light of it.

727
00:39:08,372 --> 00:39:12,844
And it's not to try and diminish or belittle
or undermine the fact that being autistic is

728
00:39:12,884 --> 00:39:15,304
oftentimes difficult, sometimes wonder why.

729
00:39:18,004 --> 00:39:19,384
And we're in a great position.

730
00:39:20,404 --> 00:39:30,796
But at the same time, if you are spending so
much time trying to decide whose fault it is

731
00:39:30,820 --> 00:39:33,080
and you're not providing support to your
child.

732
00:39:33,252 --> 00:39:33,784
Leah: Exactly.

733
00:39:33,824 --> 00:39:39,484
Moshe: You're not giving your child the needs
that it will have, given that it is autistic.

734
00:39:40,144 --> 00:39:44,512
You're just trying to relay your own guilt.

735
00:39:44,648 --> 00:39:45,604
And guilt.

736
00:39:45,984 --> 00:39:49,856
Guilt has no place in a diagnosis.

737
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:50,924
Leah: It really doesn't.

738
00:39:51,704 --> 00:39:54,416
So a few things that actually are useful that

739
00:39:54,440 --> 00:40:01,946
geneticists have found just for people's
information is that they have now notice that

740
00:40:02,130 --> 00:40:03,482
autism runs in families.

741
00:40:03,538 --> 00:40:05,322
It's not because of the MMR vaccine.

742
00:40:05,378 --> 00:40:07,698
It's not because mom drank coffee while she
was pregnant.

743
00:40:07,786 --> 00:40:10,722
It's not because you went bungee jumping when
you were 25.

744
00:40:10,778 --> 00:40:11,494
Whatever.

745
00:40:12,434 --> 00:40:15,434
So they have noticed that full siblings, so

746
00:40:15,474 --> 00:40:22,898
two full siblings together will have a 9.3%
chance higher to have autism if their sibling

747
00:40:22,946 --> 00:40:23,814
has autism.

748
00:40:24,474 --> 00:40:26,010
So full siblings, mom and dad.

749
00:40:26,042 --> 00:40:33,184
Say mom and dad, if one has autism, then the
other one will have a 9.3 higher chance or ten

750
00:40:33,224 --> 00:40:34,344
times higher chance of autism.

751
00:40:34,384 --> 00:40:34,944
Moshe: Almost.

752
00:40:35,104 --> 00:40:37,000
Almost ten times higher chance.

753
00:40:37,072 --> 00:40:40,504
Versus, you know, and for whatever reason.

754
00:40:40,544 --> 00:40:41,784
Leah: A maternal half sibling.

755
00:40:41,824 --> 00:40:44,392
So you have the same mom, different dad, you

756
00:40:44,408 --> 00:40:47,144
will have a 5.8% higher chance.

757
00:40:47,264 --> 00:40:47,904
Moshe: Right.

758
00:40:48,064 --> 00:40:49,424
Leah: A paternal half sibling.

759
00:40:49,464 --> 00:40:52,056
So same dads, different mom, you'll have a

760
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,056
3.9% higher chance.

761
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,848
And even if your cousin is autistic, so first

762
00:40:56,896 --> 00:41:01,648
cousin, you could have a 1.9% higher chance of
having an autism diagnosis.

763
00:41:01,736 --> 00:41:06,776
Moshe: So that child and another child share
the same grandparents.

764
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,204
Exactly, yes.

765
00:41:08,864 --> 00:41:10,184
So there's a link.

766
00:41:10,264 --> 00:41:11,776
So there's definitely a genetic link.

767
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,904
Leah: They've also noticed that if you have an
older sibling with autism, you have a much

768
00:41:15,944 --> 00:41:18,404
higher risk of having autism yourself.

769
00:41:19,184 --> 00:41:21,952
If the older sibling is a girl, it is an

770
00:41:22,008 --> 00:41:26,604
extremely high chance that any boys following
will have autism.

771
00:41:26,684 --> 00:41:30,452
Again, they don't know why, but statistically,
it's a thing that they've noticed.

772
00:41:30,548 --> 00:41:32,212
Moshe: There's definitely something to
discuss.

773
00:41:32,308 --> 00:41:40,624
Leah: For example, Raya is the oldest child
that I've, you know, born, and she's

774
00:41:41,164 --> 00:41:41,692
different.

775
00:41:41,788 --> 00:41:42,196
I don't know.

776
00:41:42,220 --> 00:41:43,100
She's some sort of neuro.

777
00:41:43,132 --> 00:41:43,572
Spicy.

778
00:41:43,628 --> 00:41:44,796
I'm not exactly sure.

779
00:41:44,900 --> 00:41:47,948
And Avro came out like full autism and ADHD,

780
00:41:47,996 --> 00:41:50,500
which we haven't had diagnosed yet.

781
00:41:50,532 --> 00:41:52,700
But a neurologist looked at him and was like,

782
00:41:52,732 --> 00:41:59,348
yeah, so bring him back, because ADHD, and
that is apparently a huge thing.

783
00:41:59,396 --> 00:42:04,124
Whereas if the girl is older and they're
neurospicy or even not, if your older sibling

784
00:42:04,164 --> 00:42:09,596
is a girl, you have a much higher chance of
having genetic predisposition to ASD.

785
00:42:09,780 --> 00:42:10,504
Moshe: Right.

786
00:42:13,884 --> 00:42:17,984
Leah: So let's discuss the three types of
testing that they currently do right now.

787
00:42:18,694 --> 00:42:23,062
The first is they do a chromosomal array
testing.

788
00:42:23,118 --> 00:42:27,998
That means they're looking at the 23
chromosomes for mom and 23 from dad and seeing

789
00:42:28,046 --> 00:42:30,222
if there's anything amiss there.

790
00:42:30,278 --> 00:42:33,394
At this point, that's very easy for them to do

791
00:42:33,694 --> 00:42:36,238
because they're quite practiced at it, and
it's large chunks.

792
00:42:36,286 --> 00:42:36,446
Right.

793
00:42:36,470 --> 00:42:38,582
You're looking at the whole recipe books or

794
00:42:38,598 --> 00:42:40,142
the whole shelves at the same time.

795
00:42:40,238 --> 00:42:41,750
Moshe: That's sort of the array.

796
00:42:41,822 --> 00:42:43,854
The array test is typically how you would

797
00:42:43,894 --> 00:42:50,430
diagnose trisomy 21, because, like I said,
it's very easy to see that third set on the.

798
00:42:50,462 --> 00:42:52,794
On the 21st tier.

799
00:42:53,854 --> 00:42:58,794
Leah: Then they talk about fragile x. So they
check for fragile x chromosome.

800
00:42:59,534 --> 00:43:03,654
Boys are more severely affected by that
because they only have one x chromosome.

801
00:43:03,694 --> 00:43:09,646
And if it has it, then they're affected by a
lot of times a much higher risk of ASD.

802
00:43:09,790 --> 00:43:12,674
And they have learning disabilities and
intellectual disabilities.

803
00:43:13,364 --> 00:43:17,284
Other things, the shyness, sometimes some
unique.

804
00:43:17,324 --> 00:43:22,444
Moshe: Facial features, and girls, because
they have the two x chromosomes, it's less

805
00:43:22,484 --> 00:43:22,820
obvious.

806
00:43:22,892 --> 00:43:23,564
It's off.

807
00:43:23,644 --> 00:43:29,308
Like the unhealthy one is offsetting or is
offset by the healthy one, which causes

808
00:43:29,396 --> 00:43:36,012
symptoms, but less severe generally than boys.

809
00:43:36,148 --> 00:43:39,708
Leah: And the third one is whole exome
sequencing.

810
00:43:39,756 --> 00:43:44,260
So that means they literally go through every
gene and they check the spelling of all the

811
00:43:44,292 --> 00:43:45,396
genetic code.

812
00:43:45,580 --> 00:43:47,508
That is the most expensive, the most

813
00:43:47,556 --> 00:43:53,532
extensive, the hardest to get, and it takes
the longest, probably the least useful because

814
00:43:53,588 --> 00:43:56,932
we only know what some of the genes do, right?

815
00:43:56,988 --> 00:44:02,500
Moshe: Because you could get a bunch of
different hits about certain spelling errors.

816
00:44:02,532 --> 00:44:07,324
We'll call them and, you know, you'll look at
them and go, what does that mean?

817
00:44:07,444 --> 00:44:08,344
I don't know.

818
00:44:08,894 --> 00:44:13,718
Leah: So syndromes that can arise from these
genetic differences, I don't think we're going

819
00:44:13,726 --> 00:44:15,274
to spend a lot of time on that.

820
00:44:16,694 --> 00:44:20,134
I think we can do maybe a separate video or

821
00:44:20,214 --> 00:44:24,254
write a little article about it or something
if that interests people, let us know.

822
00:44:24,374 --> 00:44:29,638
The last thing I wanted to talk about is,
again, this is one of those why questions.

823
00:44:29,686 --> 00:44:34,630
Why would you bother if you find a gene that
is associated with ASD?

824
00:44:34,782 --> 00:44:39,942
The person actually may not even have ASD, so
they have the gene there and they don't have

825
00:44:39,958 --> 00:44:40,182
it.

826
00:44:40,238 --> 00:44:43,470
I have that, actually, I was contacted after

827
00:44:43,502 --> 00:44:48,790
my genetic testing and asked if I wanted to
participate in a study because I have a gene

828
00:44:48,822 --> 00:44:54,862
that should theoretically give me 70% chance
of having autism, which clearly I must have

829
00:44:54,878 --> 00:44:55,670
passed on.

830
00:44:55,822 --> 00:44:56,254
Right?

831
00:44:56,334 --> 00:44:58,110
But we don't know.

832
00:44:58,262 --> 00:45:01,198
And if you have no genetic cause, you can

833
00:45:01,246 --> 00:45:02,670
totally have ASD.

834
00:45:02,862 --> 00:45:03,286
Moshe: Right?

835
00:45:03,350 --> 00:45:07,034
Leah: So we don't even see what the point of
looking for it is.

836
00:45:07,334 --> 00:45:07,790
Moshe: Right.

837
00:45:07,862 --> 00:45:12,954
Ultimately, some things are worth testing,

838
00:45:13,614 --> 00:45:21,326
again, either because they come with, you
know, significant health issues or drastically

839
00:45:21,390 --> 00:45:22,434
reduced life.

840
00:45:22,854 --> 00:45:25,674
Some things are more.

841
00:45:26,094 --> 00:45:26,870
I don't know.

842
00:45:26,982 --> 00:45:27,630
I think I would.

843
00:45:27,662 --> 00:45:31,022
I would characterize them in the category of
designer genes.

844
00:45:31,198 --> 00:45:36,594
Like if you kind of prefer that your child be
not autistic or maybe you.

845
00:45:37,134 --> 00:45:41,374
Or if you want your child to have blue eyes or
long eyelashes, you know, you want to.

846
00:45:41,414 --> 00:45:44,750
You want to basically pick and choose what you
want your child to look.

847
00:45:44,782 --> 00:45:46,350
Leah: Like, which is illegal, by the way.

848
00:45:46,382 --> 00:45:48,274
I think in most countries maybe all.

849
00:45:48,654 --> 00:45:49,670
Moshe: It definitely is.

850
00:45:49,702 --> 00:45:54,254
And if it's not, it should be because there's

851
00:45:54,294 --> 00:46:07,556
no instance whatsoever of the color of your
child's eyes being a factor in whether or not

852
00:46:07,620 --> 00:46:12,076
you either carry the child to term or you love
them.

853
00:46:12,220 --> 00:46:23,884
And unfortunately, I do have to bring up the
case of gender selection because it's a big

854
00:46:23,924 --> 00:46:30,190
deal because I come from Canada and most
recently in British Columbia on the west

855
00:46:30,222 --> 00:46:41,518
coast, and there is a huge instance in the
west coast of not doing certain testing unless

856
00:46:41,566 --> 00:46:44,094
it's absolutely unnecessary.

857
00:46:44,174 --> 00:46:45,714
Absolutely necessary.

858
00:46:46,334 --> 00:46:50,926
Because in certain cultures, and I won't name
them for the sake of not being accused of

859
00:46:50,950 --> 00:46:56,394
being racist or whatever, but there are
certain cultures that definitely favor males

860
00:46:56,734 --> 00:46:57,166
over.

861
00:46:57,230 --> 00:46:58,614
Over girls.

862
00:46:58,734 --> 00:47:06,270
And they went so far as to actually make it
against the law to tell the parents the gender

863
00:47:06,302 --> 00:47:11,310
of the child because it would increase the
risk that they would abort a child if they

864
00:47:11,342 --> 00:47:13,046
were a girl.

865
00:47:13,230 --> 00:47:17,030
Leah: Yeah, I don't want to go there, but it's
absolutely a thing.

866
00:47:17,222 --> 00:47:18,452
I don't even believe in it.

867
00:47:18,478 --> 00:47:20,440
And gender selection, and again, it's illegal.

868
00:47:20,512 --> 00:47:21,664
I believe in most places.

869
00:47:21,704 --> 00:47:23,664
I think some places you can do it, but I would

870
00:47:23,704 --> 00:47:25,464
have to do research on that.

871
00:47:25,624 --> 00:47:27,592
And then I don't know that I want anybody to

872
00:47:27,608 --> 00:47:30,564
look at my Google history if I did research on
it.

873
00:47:31,184 --> 00:47:32,376
Moshe: It's definitely a big thing.

874
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,336
And I know that in Canada they're really

875
00:47:34,400 --> 00:47:40,920
trying to restrict it and it already is quite
restricted because needless to say, if you do

876
00:47:40,952 --> 00:47:46,444
genetic testing on a baby, you can easily
determine what sex it is, obviously.

877
00:47:46,794 --> 00:47:50,466
And they definitely don't want to get into it.

878
00:47:50,490 --> 00:47:51,218
Leah: They do have a test.

879
00:47:51,266 --> 00:47:53,642
Now, did you know that when mom is pregnant

880
00:47:53,698 --> 00:47:58,186
and baby is far enough along, they can take
mom's blood and sequence the entire baby's

881
00:47:58,210 --> 00:47:58,706
genome?

882
00:47:58,810 --> 00:47:59,506
Moshe: Interesting.

883
00:47:59,610 --> 00:48:01,290
Leah: Yeah. So you can see everything.

884
00:48:01,362 --> 00:48:03,818
And it puts a lot of people at ease because

885
00:48:03,906 --> 00:48:07,882
they do test for a lot of the bad stuff before
baby's even big enough to see on the

886
00:48:07,898 --> 00:48:08,734
ultrasound.

887
00:48:09,154 --> 00:48:10,134
But also.

888
00:48:11,394 --> 00:48:14,814
Moshe: Right, because it's not.

889
00:48:15,434 --> 00:48:17,082
It's, again, one of those things where you're

890
00:48:17,098 --> 00:48:18,614
like, okay, the baby's there.

891
00:48:18,954 --> 00:48:20,074
Does it really matter?

892
00:48:20,154 --> 00:48:23,538
Unless it's something that could significantly
impact their life.

893
00:48:23,586 --> 00:48:26,850
Leah: Now we're getting into a pro choice
talk, which I'm happy to talk about again,

894
00:48:26,922 --> 00:48:27,654
separately.

895
00:48:28,554 --> 00:48:30,442
Enough interest would have to be shown in

896
00:48:30,458 --> 00:48:31,734
order for me to do that.

897
00:48:32,554 --> 00:48:34,346
I'm going to go out on record here and say

898
00:48:34,370 --> 00:48:35,694
that I am pro choice.

899
00:48:36,394 --> 00:48:39,050
I have interesting theories about what choices

900
00:48:39,082 --> 00:48:42,978
I would make and willing to talk about them
religiously.

901
00:48:43,146 --> 00:48:48,250
Moshe: You really can't help but be pro choice
because if you are of the mind that every life

902
00:48:48,282 --> 00:49:02,234
is sacred and every child is important, then
they have to be allowed to thrive in whatever

903
00:49:02,274 --> 00:49:03,534
capacity they can.

904
00:49:03,834 --> 00:49:07,108
But ultimately the child is.

905
00:49:07,276 --> 00:49:10,836
We don't believe in suffering, part of our,
part of the mother.

906
00:49:11,020 --> 00:49:17,316
And I mean, again, I'm not going to get into
it, but if the mother determines that the

907
00:49:17,340 --> 00:49:21,932
baby's at risk of suffering, then obviously we
have to consider those sorts of things.

908
00:49:22,068 --> 00:49:26,740
But again, that's a great conversation that we
can certainly get into if enough interested

909
00:49:26,772 --> 00:49:26,940
is.

910
00:49:26,972 --> 00:49:31,196
But otherwise, we'll try to stay away from the

911
00:49:31,220 --> 00:49:33,504
abortion debate as much as possible.

912
00:49:33,874 --> 00:49:36,970
Leah: Okay, so with our last ten minutes,
let's talk about our actual experience.

913
00:49:37,082 --> 00:49:37,866
So they already know.

914
00:49:37,890 --> 00:49:39,514
I said twice that I had a bunch of blood

915
00:49:39,554 --> 00:49:41,394
drawn, and they did genetic testing.

916
00:49:41,554 --> 00:49:44,586
And then because we said the words autism, we

917
00:49:44,610 --> 00:49:46,586
just said them in the office.

918
00:49:46,770 --> 00:49:48,642
While they were deciding which blood test to

919
00:49:48,658 --> 00:49:52,454
run on me, we were summoned to a genetic
counselor.

920
00:49:53,274 --> 00:49:59,842
We walked into the room, and you actually had
a very interesting thought process about it

921
00:49:59,858 --> 00:50:03,602
before we went, because he said, well, having
ASD is really hard for me, honey.

922
00:50:03,658 --> 00:50:07,098
If we can not have a kid with ASD, that would
be a good thing.

923
00:50:07,226 --> 00:50:09,786
That was actually what you said to me before
we went.

924
00:50:09,970 --> 00:50:16,294
After we went in there, after hearing what the
geneticist had to say, moshe changed his mind

925
00:50:16,834 --> 00:50:18,906
drastically and quickly.

926
00:50:19,090 --> 00:50:21,866
I was always of the mind that it's not the

927
00:50:21,890 --> 00:50:25,202
type of thing that I want to test for, because
it's not the type of thing I'd want to exclude

928
00:50:25,258 --> 00:50:26,414
or get rid of.

929
00:50:27,814 --> 00:50:29,374
But he had a different opinion.

930
00:50:29,414 --> 00:50:35,230
So we sat down, right?
And the genetic counselor looked directly at

931
00:50:35,262 --> 00:50:41,834
you and then asked a whole bunch of, like,
really invasive and inappropriate questions.

932
00:50:42,494 --> 00:50:45,206
Right?
Are you healthy?

933
00:50:45,270 --> 00:50:49,102
What do they define as healthy?
Somebody with no genetic predisposition to it?

934
00:50:49,158 --> 00:50:55,134
And of course, you have to answer no. And once
the autism thing came up, that was all she

935
00:50:55,174 --> 00:50:55,638
thought about.

936
00:50:55,686 --> 00:50:57,590
I was the mom literally sitting there going,

937
00:50:57,622 --> 00:50:59,308
I'm the one who's going to be pregnant.

938
00:50:59,476 --> 00:51:01,348
I was trying to interject.

939
00:51:01,516 --> 00:51:02,892
I have these genetic issues.

940
00:51:02,948 --> 00:51:04,172
Would you like to look at them?

941
00:51:04,308 --> 00:51:07,264
And she was like, no, let's talk about autism
for 4 hours.

942
00:51:08,324 --> 00:51:14,220
And then she definitely said, you know, well,
based on what I'm seeing, he has a very strong

943
00:51:14,292 --> 00:51:17,564
history of passing on autism, and are you sure
that you want to do this?

944
00:51:17,604 --> 00:51:23,640
And, you know, we do have a possibility of
looking at any zygotes that you produce in.

945
00:51:23,772 --> 00:51:30,072
You know, she didn't say the words, but it
came through as deleting any mistakes that

946
00:51:30,088 --> 00:51:31,004
might be there.

947
00:51:31,304 --> 00:51:32,928
And that's when you sort of looked at me and

948
00:51:32,936 --> 00:51:34,216
said, honey, I'm not a mistake.

949
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:36,564
And I said, I know I told you.

950
00:51:37,224 --> 00:51:42,264
And I think we kindly on my part, kindly on
his part not so kindly told the geneticists

951
00:51:42,304 --> 00:51:43,432
that we're done now.

952
00:51:43,568 --> 00:51:45,752
And if this isn't a necessary thing to do in

953
00:51:45,768 --> 00:51:49,564
order for us to have a baby, we would like to
basically, yes.

954
00:51:51,044 --> 00:51:59,036
Moshe: The idea of creating a child, if you
have the option that is not autistic, you

955
00:51:59,060 --> 00:52:00,212
know, it was tempting to.

956
00:52:00,228 --> 00:52:02,396
Leah: You for, like, 3.5 seconds.

957
00:52:02,580 --> 00:52:10,084
Moshe: It may be preferable on the surface,
but deep down, you really do have to consider

958
00:52:10,164 --> 00:52:18,614
the fact that we're talking about an actual,
you know, life potential.

959
00:52:19,034 --> 00:52:27,802
And it's the difference between being able to
go in and, like, switch off the autism in a

960
00:52:27,818 --> 00:52:32,274
particular zygote and just being like, well,
no, because that's what we're talking about.

961
00:52:32,314 --> 00:52:35,570
We're not talking about just, like, doing
something.

962
00:52:35,642 --> 00:52:37,586
And then, oh, they're not autistic anymore.

963
00:52:37,690 --> 00:52:39,026
Leah: I'm more the sciency one.

964
00:52:39,050 --> 00:52:42,330
So Moshe didn't understand, and when she.

965
00:52:42,482 --> 00:52:47,234
He didn't understand what they meant by it,
and when she explained that they would be

966
00:52:47,394 --> 00:52:48,386
creating zygotes.

967
00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:48,522
Right.

968
00:52:48,538 --> 00:52:52,490
So creating life basically, essentially
babies, not to full term or anything, and

969
00:52:52,562 --> 00:52:54,934
throwing them away, he was horrified.

970
00:52:55,394 --> 00:52:56,154
Moshe: Yeah.

971
00:52:56,314 --> 00:52:58,994
Leah: It's because we don't have the ability
to turn on and off jeans.

972
00:52:59,034 --> 00:52:59,210
Right.

973
00:52:59,242 --> 00:53:00,442
But you didn't know that.

974
00:53:00,618 --> 00:53:06,210
Moshe: I'm not as familiar with science, so I
wasn't clear on what we were talking about.

975
00:53:06,362 --> 00:53:11,614
And when I was clear on it, I'm definitely of
the mind that every life is important,

976
00:53:11,954 --> 00:53:14,038
especially if it's, like, from me.

977
00:53:14,126 --> 00:53:16,486
Like, I don't think that any part of me should

978
00:53:16,510 --> 00:53:20,534
be thrown away because it's a little bit off.

979
00:53:20,614 --> 00:53:21,134
Yeah.

980
00:53:21,254 --> 00:53:23,230
Leah: So, yeah, he looked at me and said,
honey, I'm not a mistake.

981
00:53:23,262 --> 00:53:25,990
And I said, honey, I agreed before we even
came in here.

982
00:53:26,142 --> 00:53:29,910
And then we said to her, can we still proceed
if we don't do all here?

983
00:53:29,942 --> 00:53:34,286
Because she wanted to do all kinds of testing
on you to see if they could find a gene that

984
00:53:34,310 --> 00:53:40,018
they could, you know, use to select for the
best embryos, et cetera, et cetera.

985
00:53:40,186 --> 00:53:43,402
And we said, is it necessary?
She said, no, you'll just have to sign a

986
00:53:43,418 --> 00:53:43,634
waiver.

987
00:53:43,674 --> 00:53:45,134
And we said, okay, bye.

988
00:53:45,474 --> 00:53:50,746
Moshe: Yes, I would gladly sign a waiver that
said that I'm aware that my child has a good

989
00:53:50,770 --> 00:53:52,210
chance of being autistic.

990
00:53:52,362 --> 00:53:55,562
Like, oh, well, you know, whatever.

991
00:53:55,658 --> 00:53:58,746
Leah: Them just living in my uterus, they have
a good chance of being autistic because

992
00:53:58,770 --> 00:54:05,212
there's an oldest female sibling and their
older brother is profoundly autistic, you.

993
00:54:05,228 --> 00:54:12,100
Moshe: Know, oh, well, you know, we're in for
the ride, and it's it's going to be a really

994
00:54:12,252 --> 00:54:19,104
awesome journey and we definitely look forward
to involving all of you on it with us,

995
00:54:19,884 --> 00:54:23,276
depending on how things go and what happened.

996
00:54:23,420 --> 00:54:26,420
But yeah, so this is another episode.

997
00:54:26,452 --> 00:54:32,518
We're really, really going to try to stick to
a Sunday recording schedule and little

998
00:54:32,566 --> 00:54:32,870
content.

999
00:54:32,942 --> 00:54:34,622
So if you haven't had a chance to check out

1000
00:54:34,638 --> 00:54:41,686
our TikTok or our Instagram or Facebook, then
I would advise you to go do that.

1001
00:54:41,870 --> 00:54:46,870
There's a lot of really funny stuff that Leah
and I put up, a lot of stuff involving the

1002
00:54:46,902 --> 00:54:47,514
kids.

1003
00:54:48,374 --> 00:54:50,302
We're still going to try and figure out a way

1004
00:54:50,318 --> 00:54:53,034
to involve the kids in some way in the
podcast.

1005
00:54:53,414 --> 00:54:55,582
Leah: And I mean, they heard Ryan come home
today.

1006
00:54:55,678 --> 00:54:56,118
Moshe: They did.

1007
00:54:56,166 --> 00:54:58,834
She was already, it was her debut on.

1008
00:55:00,354 --> 00:55:04,014
You can email us at contact us at 99
autistic.com.

1009
00:55:04,354 --> 00:55:11,858
You can search for 99 autistic on YouTube, on
Apple Music, on Spotify, on pot chaser, on

1010
00:55:11,986 --> 00:55:13,050
iHeartRadio.

1011
00:55:13,162 --> 00:55:17,602
Leah: And it really helps us a lot, actually,
when you just listen, download, share rate,

1012
00:55:17,698 --> 00:55:19,226
interact with the podcast in any.

1013
00:55:19,250 --> 00:55:21,346
Moshe: Way on our podbean homepage, of course.

1014
00:55:21,410 --> 00:55:22,818
Leah: And also check out our Patreon.

1015
00:55:22,866 --> 00:55:25,182
I mean, it does allow us to do more of this

1016
00:55:25,298 --> 00:55:25,954
content.

1017
00:55:26,294 --> 00:55:32,478
Moshe: We do have the ability to have you, you
know, tip us or donate to us if you want.

1018
00:55:32,526 --> 00:55:33,514
It's on the website.

1019
00:55:34,454 --> 00:55:36,374
It can be a little, or it can be a lot.

1020
00:55:36,414 --> 00:55:37,262
It doesn't really matter.

1021
00:55:37,318 --> 00:55:40,030
There's some little gifts and stuff that I put

1022
00:55:40,062 --> 00:55:42,534
up for people that give a certain amount.

1023
00:55:42,574 --> 00:55:44,902
But honestly, if you like what we're saying

1024
00:55:44,958 --> 00:55:48,670
and you want us to keep saying it, it
definitely helps.

1025
00:55:48,862 --> 00:55:55,014
But, but we're going to try and keep it as, as
simplified as possible.

1026
00:55:58,594 --> 00:56:06,454
So thank you very much for listening today and
enjoy the pleasant sounds of our outro.

1027
00:56:08,034 --> 00:56:09,810
Well, that's our show for today.

1028
00:56:09,962 --> 00:56:12,290
Now, you know, one autistic just a little bit

1029
00:56:12,322 --> 00:56:12,894
better.

1030
00:56:13,354 --> 00:56:16,794
So something you may not know about some

1031
00:56:16,834 --> 00:56:21,294
autistics is that we often struggle with
ending social interactions.

1032
00:56:21,674 --> 00:56:23,374
So Leah.

1033
00:56:24,114 --> 00:56:26,514
Leah: All right, Moshe, I'll take care of it.

1034
00:56:26,674 --> 00:56:28,970
Thank you for listening to now, you know, one

1035
00:56:29,002 --> 00:56:29,562
autistic.

1036
00:56:29,618 --> 00:56:30,394
See you next week.