Beyond Words: Unlocking the Mysteries of Autistic Communication

Episode Title: Beyond Words: Unlocking the Mysteries of Autistic Communication

Episode Number: 2

Release Date: Apr 18, 2024

Duration: 1:01:01

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah dive into the complexities of communication in neurodiverse relationships. They explore the challenges and misunderstandings that can arise due to differences in communication styles and neurotypes. The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding, patience, and clear communication for building successful relationships.

Key Takeaways:

• Successful Communication: The hosts define communication as the successful conveying or sharing of ideas and feelings, emphasizing the importance of mutual understanding.
• Hearing vs. Listening: They distinguish between hearing (passive) and listening (active), highlighting the need for active engagement in communication.
• Nonverbal Communication: The episode explores the significance of nonverbal cues, body language, and tone in communication, especially for autistic individuals.
• Communication Styles: The hosts discuss different communication styles (passive, aggressive, passive-aggressive, assertive) and advocate for assertive communication as the healthiest approach.
• Neurodiversity and Communication: The episode touches on the unique challenges and strengths in communication experienced by neurodivergent individuals, particularly those on the autism spectrum.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

• The definition of successful communication and its importance in relationships.
• The difference between hearing and listening, and how to actively engage in communication.
• The role of nonverbal cues in communication, especially for autistic individuals.
• Different communication styles and the benefits of assertive communication.
• Insights into the communication experiences of neurodivergent individuals.

Quotes:

• "Communication is the successful conveying or sharing of ideas and feelings." - Moshe
• "It's the difference between hearing someone and listening to someone. Hearing is passive. Listening is active." - Leah
• "Just because you're differently processing or whatever, that you should change." - Moshe

Resources & Links:

• Miriam Webster Dictionary Definition of Communication
• The Double Empathy Problem

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Transcript:

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Music.

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Hi, I'm Moshe and I'm autistic. I'm Leah and I'm boring.

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Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,

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marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.

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The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.

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Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion.

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And unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the

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many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.

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But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will

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be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,

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a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.

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If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,

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consult your family doctor.

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Music.

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Hey Moshe hi leah so today we're starting episode two which is going to be i

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think at least three episodes worth but maybe not back to back so we can give

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the listeners a little bit of a break from this topic for sure what topic do

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you think we're going to be doing today so last week was

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an introduction to who we are.

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And we sort of discussed a bit about what brought us together and what brought us to do this podcast.

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And today, we're going to basically get into the, I guess you could call it

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the meat, what is going to be a topic, but it's also going to be sort of sprinkled

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liberally throughout all the episodes that we do going forward forever, probably.

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But it's going to be about communication. So, you would say we're going to be

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communicating about communication then?

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We're going to be communicating about communication. Okay.

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We should probably start with the definition of what communication is.

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I think a lot of people out there might think they know what communication is,

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but do they? It's really hard to say.

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Communication is one of those things you don't often think about because it

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sort of forms the basis or the background noise, we'll call it,

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of just regular social interactions.

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But when it comes to people who are neurodivergent and people who are autistic.

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It's not so simple is it yes but

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as you know me i'm a huge nerd and of course i did some research and

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even i was blown away by some of the definitions of communication it's

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not only what i thought so communication can be identified as a message it can

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be identified as a means of communication so like a cell phone that's communications

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um but we're really only interested in one of the definitions when it comes

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to what we're talking about and i will We'll read it verbatim because it's a very good one.

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So this is from Miriam Webster, and it is the successful conveying or sharing of ideas and feelings.

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That's a very good and concise definition. Right. So the key word here is successful.

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Success, yes. Can we just establish that we haven't always been successful in

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conveying or sharing our ideas and feelings?

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Not at all. We've never not had an issue. And in fact, kind of skipping ahead

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a little bit, communication is an ongoing thing.

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It's going to be an ongoing thing in any relationship, but especially when you

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have the kind of relationship that we have, and especially when you have the

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kind of relationship that anybody who has the kind of relationship that we have

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is going to have, you're looking at...

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Neurodiversity versus neurotypical. You're looking at autistic versus,

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we'll say non-autistic.

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We're looking at... One of the terms is holistic. I don't think that one's offensive.

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I guess we could call it, I don't know. I'll put it to the listeners.

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Do you feel that holistic is a more socially acceptable term than neurotypical?

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So I'll do what I do for Moshe and Avram. I'm going to give you three choices.

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Your choices are neurotypical, allistic, or non-autistic.

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Which one do you think we should use?

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Well, personally, I have always used neurotypical just because it is a fairly

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accurate way, at least in my own opinion.

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And of course, it's just the opinion of one autistic that it better describes

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the differences. Because if you say allistic, it could be a word.

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It could be a word referring to anything. Allistic means nothing to me.

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But when you create the contrast between neurodivergent and neurotypical,

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then you are creating that divide between this is the typical experience.

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And again, typical according to who.

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But it's the typical, quote unquote, experience for, we'll say,

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the majority of the population.

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And then you have the people like me and like other neurodivergents who are

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a little bit off the path,

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maybe a little, maybe a lot, but it's not what you would look at or listen to

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and think that that's about right.

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You go, I don't know about that way of doing things. So I'd like to pose it

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to the audience, really.

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Message us, post on the forums or whatever it is that you do.

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You can tell that I don't do the technical part of this.

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But let us know what you think and we'll try to incorporate it.

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And I just want to say for the record, because we are doing our first episode

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today on the topic of communication, that I really, or Leah and I both really

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appreciate all the communication that has been sent our way since the first episode.

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The response has been phenomenal.

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There's been a lot of feedback and a lot of people who have reached out to me

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personally, who have been very excited for the next episode and to see where the podcast goes.

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They've said that it's a really great topic. And you'll often see me, if you're on Facebook,

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going to a lot of these groups that deal with autism and stuff and sort of giving

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the podcast's feedback on behalf of Leigh and I, or she might do it, or I might do it.

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It's really been a great response. And I'm so happy.

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And please, please, please comment, message, whatever podcasting app you're using.

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Rate us. If you like the podcast, say five stars, you did a great job or one

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star, you guys are terrible. It doesn't really matter.

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Any feedback is better than no feedback. And if you want to send us a private

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message, we have an email address.

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I didn't mention it in the last episode, but I don't know. It slipped my mind.

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Contact us now, you know, one autistic.com and it's all one word,

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no spaces, no underscores.

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Boards just contact us at now you

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know one autistic duck that is simple for our

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listeners and that's a very good idea so let's get

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into what would be again we like to use the word typical versus non-typical

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a typical communicative interaction so the way communication will work typically

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is that there is a sender so the person has something that they want to convey to the other person.

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So for example, I would be the sender. Now there's a message.

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Let's give an example of a message that I have a lot. Moshe,

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you left something on the floor. Can you please pick that up?

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And then there's a recipient who would be Moshe in this case.

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And in order for him to receive that message, a lot of things have to happen.

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One, he has to be engaged in listening. Two, he has to process the things I've said.

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Three, he has to be in the mood to hear if he's He's in a bad mood.

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He's like, give me a minute. I'm busy.

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Any of those things can go wrong at any time. And that is true between neurotypicals

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as well, between two autistics as well, or between, you know,

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an allistic and an autistic person.

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That's typically how an interaction would go.

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And you hope that by the time the sender gets the message to the recipient that

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it goes well and it's handled in a respectful and productive manner. Mm-hmm.

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So it's three parts, but it is one of the most complicated aspects of any relationship,

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between one autistic and one non-autistic or one holistic.

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Sounds so simple, right? It does sound simple. You have three steps,

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step one, step two, and step three.

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And the amount of work that has to go into, you know, how the sender is saying what they're saying.

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Is the sender making sure that the recipient is even listening?

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How many times have we come to the end of a half an hour argument?

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And the answer is, I just couldn't receive the message you were giving me with

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the words you used, you needed to use these words.

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The message is very important. The sender and how they present it is very important.

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The recipient and whether they are receiving it.

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And this actually allows us to get into another topic, which I don't know that

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we actually discussed in preparation for the episode.

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And that is a very important thing when we're talking about these three steps.

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And that is the difference between hearing and listening.

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Because a lot of, I mean, let's be honest here, a lot of people,

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but also in particular neurodivergence or whatever you want to call them,

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autistics, we'll say in this case, because I'm autistic, so that's how I relate.

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Autistics always express that there's going to be a difference between hearing

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someone and listening someone. Hearing is passive.

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Listening is active. It's the difference between speaking and talking.

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Hearing means you basically have sounds enter your ears. What your mind does

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with them is really up in the air.

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If you are in a room and there is a sound, for example, if the air conditioning

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is on, I'm hearing it because it's on.

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But if there's something wrong with it, I'm not really listening.

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And you'll go, do you hear something's wrong with the air conditioning? I go, I don't know.

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Well, can you hear it? Oh, yeah, I can hear it. But I'm not listening for it.

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Right. That'll typically go the other way, actually.

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You'll hear something and be like, something is off. And I don't notice it because of your ADHD.

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It's a superpower, I guess. if you want to call it that we'll call it a superpower

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but you know Moshe has another layer of things to deal with which honestly I

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have to almost give him a medal for this because.

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I can see from his perspective how difficult and impossible

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it would be and there's this other layer of

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hearing versus listening where I

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gave the example of Moshe you left let's say your underwear on the

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floor again pick him up and he'll go okay and

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pick him up but if he doesn't go over and i'm so sorry and

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i understand and i acknowledge that that's so frustrating for you i will

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turn around and go do you understand how it made me feel that you left

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your underwear on the floor again after we've talked about it and that is where

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we we get off because i am you know what's neurotypical and a woman so i'm all

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about the do you understand how that made me do you know what you did wrong

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and that's got to be like just i give him a medal for dealing with that.

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That is an interesting point because when we talk about hearing versus listening and we talk about,

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Even between hearing and listening, there's subcategories between hearing,

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what type of hearing you're using, and what type of listening you're doing.

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Because you could, for example, say, Moshe, your underwear on the floor. I could hear you.

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I'm listening to you. So I go, oh, okay, pick them up, put them away,

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go back to doing what I was doing.

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But what I'm not listening for is tone, demeanor, nonverbal body language,

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intonation, because this is the sixth time that I've left my underwear on the

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floor this week, and Leigh is getting a little bit upset.

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So it's not just a matter of, oh, I'll do it, and then I'll forget again.

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I have to be able to go, oh, you know what?

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It sounds like you're getting a bit annoyed. I'm really sorry.

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Have I been doing this a lot? Yes, you have, Moshe.

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Okay, I'm really sorry. I'm going to make a greater effort to pick up my underwear.

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That way you're acknowledging feelings.

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And to be honest with you, I

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totally know that the next day his underwear is going to be on the floor.

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But just the fact that he cares is all I needed. And I can move on and pick

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it up for the rest of the week.

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And that's kind of a level two or three concept.

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We'll get into the differences between understanding something and doing something

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in a later episode, because it's actually a really big topic,

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especially when it comes to autistics.

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And just to quickly, quickly touch on it, because in fact, it's one of those

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things you could make a whole episode about.

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It really comes down to understanding the why of it. You can understand the

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what of it. I want you to do this.

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So we've established that I know what you want me to do, and so I do it.

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But do I know why you want me to do it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

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Did you explain why you wanted me to do it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

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If no, maybe I need to clarify.

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And when it comes to, and again, this is just a real surface level thing.

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When it comes to the consistent change in behavior that you're trying to get,

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and again, Again, I just want to note for the record that this is not like unique

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to autistics. It can happen to anyone.

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But autistics in particular are singled out because of the processing delay,

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which is another topic that we won't get into in this episode.

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But it's a really important thing.

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You have to establish that if you know why you're doing a thing,

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it's far easier to consistently do the behavior because then you start checking yourself.

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I also want to establish that we're not indicating that any autistic or non-autistic

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person should change or want to change.

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It's if you want to change to be able to better communicate with your partner

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or your children or your co-workers or anything.

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But if you're happy with who you are, we're definitely not indicating that just

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because you're differently processing or whatever that you should change.

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Right. There's nothing wrong with being autistic. There's nothing wrong with

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leaving your underwear on the floor.

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If you're happy with leaving your underwear on the floor, there's nothing wrong

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with leaving your underwear on your floor if you have a partner or a roommate

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or someone who accepts that that's just something that you do.

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But what we're talking about in this episode and throughout the podcast is if

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you are a neurodivergent or in particular an autistic person,

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and that goes hand in hand with ADHD,

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which is, again, another really advanced topic, that you want to understand the why of it.

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Because a lot of autistics, I know I was, were in a position where they were

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like, I don't have a really easy time with friends.

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I don't have a really easy time with partners. Nobody really wants to be around me.

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I don't know why. And then you just go on with your life. Right.

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So this concept, and I'm not exaggerating to two and a half years,

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listen to the efficiency and ease of this topic, okay?

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Moshe would do nothing unless he understood inside and out why it was necessary,

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why he was doing it, why it had to be a thing.

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He agreed with it in all aspects. And then it was been like a thorough going

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over. And I would get very upset.

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And one day I just looked at him and said, do you care about me?

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And he said, yeah. I said, if you care about me, can you just do it?

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And he said, that's a thing I can do. And I said, yeah, you don't have to understand everything.

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If someone you love and trust, and you know won't ask you to do anything against

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yourself, ask you to do something, sometimes you can just do it.

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And trust in a relationship with an aversion to an autistic is also a very interesting concept.

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But if you can establish a rapport with someone who is neurodivergent the way

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that Leah has established a rapport with me, and that can come through months

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or years of established work,

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and a genuine, genuine interest in attempting to form the bonds with me that she wanted to,

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then you really kind of armor yourself.

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Because you can, in effect, out-logic the autistic, like me.

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So, we can establish that I am doing this because you know that I care about

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you. You can agree that I care about you.

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So, you can agree that if I ask you to do something, it's not for selfish or incorrect reasons.

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It's because I care about you. Can we agree on this? Yes.

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Okay. So, can we establish that if I ask you to do something,

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with very few exceptions, it's because it's important to me?

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Can we establish that? Yes. Okay.

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So, how about this? In instances where I ask you to do something and you don't

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readily understand why you're doing it, and we can definitely discuss that at

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a later time, but in the moment,

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if I ask you to do something, the default,

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even if you don't understand the why of it, is because I care about you and

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I have your best interest in mind and I love you.

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Can that be a thing that you just kind of fall back on so that you don't turn

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every single request to pick up your underwear into like an interview.

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And, and eventually, and there's a lot of yada, yada, yada to use the Seinfeld

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term, which hopefully isn't copyrighted that we got to that point where now

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Leo will ask me to do something.

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And my default will either be, I understand why based on our history,

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or I don't really know why she's asking me to do that, but I,

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I love her and I care about her and I want to make her happy.

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So that's going to be enough. And then I was probably have time later.

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You'll ask me and probably explain it. And then that's okay. Right.

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So let's move to some topic within this topic, obviously, the different ways

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that somebody can communicate.

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So the obvious one is spoken.

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What does spoken communication look like? Often it looks like language.

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Often it looks like words. Often it looks like a common language,

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right? So I'm speaking English to you.

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You understand English. You're speaking English to me. Right.

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Where you get into difficulties with that is when people don't speak the same language,

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for example and a thing

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that people should know about autistics

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versus non-autistics is that often even if you're speaking

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the same language you're not speaking the same language words don't

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evoke the same feelings for you necessarily you've

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described a phenomenon to me where you will grab a

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word that's adjacent to the word that you want to say because that's

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what your brain is doing you or we

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discover together that a lot of times you think in memories so

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you will say something that's totally bonkers to me

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like we're driving down the road and it's crashing

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and like we're not even in a car but you're expressing a memory to me that conveys

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the same feeling and i'm expected to understand that right right um so that's

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where you get into the fact that That spoken is actually not necessarily as

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simple as you think it is. Right.

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The next is nonverbal. So what does nonverbal communication look like?

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You're much a better expert at that than I am, actually.

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From what I saw and what I know through many incarnations in my careers and

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stuff, is that nonverbal generally will look like body language,

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gestures, how we look, how we dress, how we carry ourselves.

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It's what people see on the outside. It's what we want to project to others.

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Right. So nonverbal communication is something that,

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And again, I don't mean to use the extreme terms of like everyone or nobody or what have you.

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But we'll say for the purposes of this, that quite a few autistics operate very much on nonverbal.

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And we'll get into the whole concept of verbal versus nonverbal in a few minutes.

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But essentially, an autistic person, and again, just my experience,

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and if I'm wrong, please feel free to let me know your experience.

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I'm happy to hear it. We're happy to hear it, I should say.

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And we would love to hear everyone's experience. But nonverbal communication

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for an autistic is the default.

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Because even if you can't vocalize your feelings, which a lot of autistics do

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struggle with, and again, I use the word a lot, not all, because obviously there's

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a lot that are perfectly fine with it. That's okay too.

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But you exist. And I use the word exist.

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Now, for me, the word exist doesn't necessarily mean what the people might assume

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that it means, which is another topic that maybe we can get into is,

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does that word, what do you mean by that?

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It may not mean what either you think it means, or it may not mean what I think

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it means, but not trying to get too much off topic.

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So, for example, something that I used to do a lot is stare because my mouth had trouble operating.

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So, I tried to speak with my eyes. Now, the thing about the eyes are they don't

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have the necessary air exchange to express words.

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Your mouth is actually quite good at expressing words. That's kind of how it was made.

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But your eyes can express feelings Feelings may be, but those can also be misinterpreted.

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So, when I struggle with communication, when I struggle with vocalizing my feelings, when I struggle with...

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Expressing myself in the way that I want to, then I rely on non-verbal cues.

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My face, as Leah says, does a thing.

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Your face has no poker face. My eyes do a thing, or my posture does a thing, or sometimes I'll sigh,

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or I'll roll my eyes, or I'll act like really, like you can kind of sort of look at me.

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I mean, you can't because this is an audio, this is no video component to the podcast,

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but you could if you were able to look at me

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and if you know me well you can kind

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of see how i'm feeling and

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the really interesting part about that is sometimes you

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will know how i'm feeling more than i do yes but

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if i can be honest with you that is

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level 101 because those are

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the non-verbal cues that i'm used to as an

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neurotypical person so you will do this thing till this

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day which i've now understood is not you being angry because

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you look angry where you'll stand there and stare at

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me with no look on your face and just look at me and that to me is an indication

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that i meant to do something here i'm supposed to ask you what you want because

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you can't verbalize what it is that you want right now but you used to look

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angry again if you could see most like it's kind of an imposing figure there's

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pictures of me like here and everywhere so i understand

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now that that's my cue to ask you what you want all right so those are basics again.

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Admirable cues but for me that's one of my gms look

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really good at like advanced body language

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with you over yes so the

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kids call moshe abba abba means father in

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hebrew and she will walk into a room where moshe

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is doing nothing that i can see at all and

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he'll be like abba has to pee and you'll be like yeah

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i actually do have to pee and if i

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have no idea what kind of interaction went into them

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understanding each other or i'm sure we'll say the same to

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me but i'm not doing well today to me he looks fine offering

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is gonna you know have an accident later often's gonna fall

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down but whatever and i'll be

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like he looks fine to me so that is one on

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two one on three the language that i don't even have

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a kick up yes so while a

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lot of autistics do struggle with communication to

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certain extents and there are some commonalities like difficulty with social

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cues and and and difficulty with expressing ideas and sometimes difficulty with

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talking where we excel and again i say we not not to indicate that it's a universalist

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thing but but where we tend to excel, we'll say, is on the non-verb.

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Because one autistic can often look at another autistic and they just get a feeling about them.

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And it could be something very minor, like...

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Their face is doing the thing, as Leigh would say. Or they're just,

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the words that they used, or the actions that they engaged in,

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or just their demeanor, or they're stimming a little bit more than normal,

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or stimming a little bit less than normal.

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Or if you have a particular stim, and again, I'm using the word stimming,

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I haven't defined it, and we will.

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But for now, we're just going to assume that it has something to do with autistics.

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And if you know what it means, then fantastic.

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And if you don't, then we'll definitely define it. But if you are behaving in

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a quote unquote autistic way, and again, this will actually come up not as an

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offense because it's meant with the most love in our hearts.

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But Leah will come to me and say, Avram's acting really autistic today.

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Can you figure out what's wrong?

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And again, I know what she means. And if I said, Leah, I'm sorry if I'm a bit

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off, I'm feeling extra autistic today.

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She'll know what i mean by that she'll go oh yeah yeah you

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know i see it i see it and that that

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comes with with exposure and experience and again it is not meant to be offensive

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and if you feel that that's offensive then please let me know why because i'd

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honestly i'd like to hear other people's experiences because as the podcast

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interest is i'm one autistic and actually just

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fanatically define stimming for patients. Okay, we're going to go right into it. It's really quick.

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We're not going to linger on it. But stimming is essentially a sensory-seeking behavior.

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Everybody has them, including your typical people, where you like to chew gum

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or you would like to play with something with your fingers.

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Autistics do it more, and they have more of a need to do it.

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Rather than something they like

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to do, they need it to regulate their interaction with the outside world.

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And that's all I'm going to say for now. Okay.

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So, back into nonverbal body language, it really comes down to the ability to

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be able to carry yourself in such a way that people should,

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in your own mind, which is a whole other topic, be able to look at you and based

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on their knowledge of you, know what you need without you vocalizing it.

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And that is that in an ideal situation that would go part and parcel with the

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verbal communication, because as you know, the majority of communication is

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nonverbal, but the words do matter,

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obviously, because if you just walk into a room and stare at somebody,

396
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they're not automatically going to know exactly what you need,

397
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or the urgency that you need it, or anything like that.

398
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But it's definitely a thing that that autistic people struggle with that i've

399
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experienced and again not universal but it's it's my own experience and my own

400
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journey that is that is work that is work to get to know anybody really if you just look at them and.

401
00:28:09.566 --> 00:28:12.946
Figure out what they need, but that's any relationship I get.

402
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I just want to say for the record, without mentioning names,

403
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that one of my first exposures to what, I don't know, for lack of a better word, a mainstream autistic,

404
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because, you know, there's some of us that look behind the curtains and some

405
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of them that are more in the spotlight, but there's a particular,

406
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we'll call them a somewhat famous autistic

407
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that has some exposure and has been

408
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involved in certain projects and what they

409
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indicated which to me at one

410
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point seemed like the height of autistic understanding is that their partner

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would be able to look at them and based entirely on their non-verbal body language

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say okay they're done for the day we're going to go now and and lay and i have

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had many discussions about that very concept and whether

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or not it's even healthy to feel that you need to manage an autistic in,

415
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like, we'll call it the real world. Like another adult.

416
00:29:11.766 --> 00:29:14.926
Your child is different, but another adult. Right.

417
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So we're approaching about a half an hour into the podcast.

418
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So I think what we'll do, we'll call this the halfway point,

419
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perhaps, is we'll move on to the next topic.

420
00:29:26.666 --> 00:29:29.586
This isn't the one. One, you're going to have to keep it, I think,

421
00:29:29.606 --> 00:29:33.286
a little bit quick if we want to keep this to a reasonable length.

422
00:29:33.426 --> 00:29:35.566
What we're going to be talking about is.

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00:29:36.465 --> 00:29:43.345
The terms non-verbal, non-speaking, and minimally verbal, and what they have

424
00:29:43.345 --> 00:29:50.485
to do with the levels of autism that can be diagnosed via the ADOS and the DSM-5. Right.

425
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So this is one of those topics that we inserted into this second episode because

426
00:29:56.425 --> 00:30:00.405
it's one of those things that I briefly touched on in the first episode.

427
00:30:00.405 --> 00:30:05.285
But it's an opportunity for me to essentially advocate for my community,

428
00:30:05.405 --> 00:30:07.325
if they are indeed my community.

429
00:30:07.525 --> 00:30:10.365
And that is the fact, and I'll say it again, because I did say it in the first

430
00:30:10.365 --> 00:30:17.905
episode, but I really dislike the term non-verbal or its newer incarnations

431
00:30:17.905 --> 00:30:20.045
like minimally verbal or non-speaking.

432
00:30:20.045 --> 00:30:28.405
And that's not to say that there are autistics that do struggle with formulating words,

433
00:30:28.645 --> 00:30:35.425
because if autism can be identified by one common trait, almost universally,

434
00:30:35.605 --> 00:30:37.965
but I'm almost prepared to say universally,

435
00:30:38.365 --> 00:30:40.405
it's development delays. lays.

436
00:30:40.985 --> 00:30:46.865
If someone ever asks you what autism is, you'll get a laundry list of different things.

437
00:30:47.465 --> 00:30:52.165
But the universal underlying factor is it is a developmental disability.

438
00:30:52.565 --> 00:30:56.965
It is a disability. Speaking of which, I did a lot of research on this,

439
00:30:56.985 --> 00:31:01.405
and we're going to post some interesting links if you want to read more about it yourself. Of course.

440
00:31:01.565 --> 00:31:07.705
So my experience with the autistic community, even before I was diagnosed as

441
00:31:07.705 --> 00:31:10.785
an adult, was mostly with children.

442
00:31:11.145 --> 00:31:19.345
Because unfortunately, the majority of autistics that are diagnosed are diagnosed

443
00:31:19.345 --> 00:31:23.125
as children, which is actually not unfortunate. It's actually very fortunate.

444
00:31:23.405 --> 00:31:26.205
But where it becomes unfortunate is that a lot of.

445
00:31:27.247 --> 00:31:31.127
A lot of autistics who weren't diagnosed as children struggle to be diagnosed

446
00:31:31.127 --> 00:31:33.707
as adults, and that is in itself another topic.

447
00:31:33.947 --> 00:31:41.827
But what I encountered is a wide variety of people who have autism or were diagnosed with autism.

448
00:31:42.787 --> 00:31:46.107
And it seems to me, especially in my own experience,

449
00:31:46.187 --> 00:31:52.547
but also just by going through the autism forums on Facebook and other websites

450
00:31:52.547 --> 00:31:57.747
and reading what the parents are writing, that an awful lot of autistics nowadays

451
00:31:57.747 --> 00:31:59.347
are non-verbal, apparent.

452
00:31:59.947 --> 00:32:02.287
And to me, that struck me as strange.

453
00:32:03.427 --> 00:32:09.827
Because one particular trait that seems to be, if you believe that these Facebook

454
00:32:09.827 --> 00:32:15.387
groups are a sample, which they're absolutely not, it just seems like an awful

455
00:32:15.387 --> 00:32:16.667
lot of children are non-verbal.

456
00:32:16.787 --> 00:32:20.367
So I delved into it, and I looked into it, and I met a lot of autistics.

457
00:32:20.367 --> 00:32:25.547
And I met an autistic many years ago when I was in my 20s.

458
00:32:25.807 --> 00:32:29.287
And he was, according to his parents, nonverbal.

459
00:32:29.507 --> 00:32:35.167
And their assessment of nonverbal was the fact that when he expressed himself,

460
00:32:35.427 --> 00:32:37.287
he expressed himself in terms of video games.

461
00:32:37.907 --> 00:32:44.047
His hyper-focus was video games. So when he wanted to leave a situation, he would say, game over.

462
00:32:44.567 --> 00:32:47.427
When he was feeling very happy, he would say, power up.

463
00:32:47.947 --> 00:32:52.147
And they were words. Those are actual words in English.

464
00:32:52.427 --> 00:32:57.867
But the mom says, I'm sorry. He's nonverbal, and we don't always understand what he's trying to say.

465
00:32:58.427 --> 00:33:02.127
So I was very young, and I was very naive, and I was very shy.

466
00:33:02.347 --> 00:33:05.167
But what I was thinking was, well, are you listening to him?

467
00:33:05.627 --> 00:33:08.487
Because I spent time with him. He was, I don't know, he must've been like eight

468
00:33:08.487 --> 00:33:10.127
or nine years old. And I was.

469
00:33:11.340 --> 00:33:13.920
I don't just hang around with, with, with autistic children.

470
00:33:14.040 --> 00:33:17.240
I was this, the roommate of, of this person.

471
00:33:17.280 --> 00:33:19.700
No, I was, I was a roommate of this person's friend.

472
00:33:19.940 --> 00:33:23.440
And the friend was coming over for coffee with my roommate one day and they

473
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:27.560
brought their son and I'm a very friendly guy. So I was like, hi, how are you doing?

474
00:33:27.980 --> 00:33:30.540
And she said, oh, he, he's nonverbal. I'm sorry.

475
00:33:31.080 --> 00:33:34.880
And I said, he can't talk. He goes, no, he can't talk.

476
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.520
And then he started talking to me and it was mostly about video games.

477
00:33:38.580 --> 00:33:43.400
And I'm like, he's, he's talking though. What people consider language is a

478
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:46.400
very interesting topic, which we can make a whole episode on as well.

479
00:33:46.520 --> 00:33:49.300
So to summarize, and again, this is a very big deal for me.

480
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:54.660
What I've experienced is essentially when you say someone is nonverbal,

481
00:33:54.680 --> 00:34:00.080
and again, acknowledging that nonverbal is a very sensitive topic for a lot

482
00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:03.780
of parents, especially who struggle to talk to their children.

483
00:34:04.180 --> 00:34:07.820
And a lot of these parents have very difficult times with it.

484
00:34:07.860 --> 00:34:10.480
I'm an neurotypical parent, and I have no patience for that.

485
00:34:10.640 --> 00:34:18.280
And that's okay, too. So my advice to these parents are your child,

486
00:34:18.580 --> 00:34:21.300
unless they're mute, which I haven't encountered,

487
00:34:21.640 --> 00:34:26.440
whether your child is talking in terms of video games, whether your child is

488
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:30.600
just using one or two words, whether your child is just making sounds,

489
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:35.500
whether or not you put them in speech therapy or occupational therapy or,

490
00:34:35.580 --> 00:34:38.940
you know, you know khas v'sholam aba to

491
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:42.800
try and provoke a a language

492
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.880
development at some point they're not non-verbal

493
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:49.620
if they sit in a corner and don't make a sound they're non-verbal but most of

494
00:34:49.620 --> 00:34:55.180
the time they are verbal or they talk in the sense that they have a language

495
00:34:55.180 --> 00:34:59.740
that they understand yeah i need to inspire how i feel about this go ahead so

496
00:34:59.740 --> 00:35:05.420
there are parents who learn their baby's fries rise to know what they want.

497
00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:08.140
This crime means they're dirty. This crime means they want to be this way.

498
00:35:09.072 --> 00:35:11.952
So that's a means of communication. That's not a recognized language.

499
00:35:12.212 --> 00:35:17.612
There are parents who will teach baby's sign language to reduce frustration

500
00:35:17.612 --> 00:35:21.132
on the baby's part before their mouth parts can actually make words.

501
00:35:21.632 --> 00:35:24.552
When you're dealing with an autistic, just because they're older,

502
00:35:24.832 --> 00:35:29.312
it is the same issue. Their mouth parts are having trouble making words.

503
00:35:29.672 --> 00:35:35.172
But if you can learn what a newborn baby's crying means, if you can teach a

504
00:35:35.172 --> 00:35:38.472
baby sign language so that they're less frustrated and cry less.

505
00:35:39.072 --> 00:35:43.852
Then why on earth can't you learn what your child's noises, sounds.

506
00:35:45.232 --> 00:35:49.452
Flackering, body language, any combination of those things mean?

507
00:35:50.212 --> 00:35:54.952
Exactly. And what I encountered, and it actually does make me very frustrated,

508
00:35:55.032 --> 00:35:59.432
because a lot of these nonverbal parents, parents of nonverbal autistics,

509
00:35:59.652 --> 00:36:02.932
the kids are like two or three or four or one and a half.

510
00:36:03.692 --> 00:36:08.732
And maybe they only recently got a diagnosis, And maybe they're still working

511
00:36:08.732 --> 00:36:14.272
on trying to understand the kid, either through speech therapy or through just learning their cues.

512
00:36:14.612 --> 00:36:18.012
But then you have these parents. And again, they're 25.

513
00:36:18.292 --> 00:36:21.952
They're like, I'm sorry. They're like, Sam is 25 and nonverbal.

514
00:36:21.972 --> 00:36:23.092
That's not, there's no excuse.

515
00:36:23.292 --> 00:36:26.872
I have a 19 year old son. I read this. I forget which form I was in.

516
00:36:26.912 --> 00:36:28.352
I read this, this, this post.

517
00:36:28.832 --> 00:36:32.252
But this mom did. And she was reaching out to the, to the community.

518
00:36:32.252 --> 00:36:38.072
And she wrote, my 19-year-old son always screams when he's in the back of the

519
00:36:38.072 --> 00:36:39.812
car, and I don't know what to do.

520
00:36:40.132 --> 00:36:50.212
So I responded to her quite innocently as, well, what's happening?

521
00:36:50.812 --> 00:36:54.512
Why is he screaming? Again, why is he screaming?

522
00:36:54.592 --> 00:36:57.592
Why is he making the noise that you want him to stop?

523
00:36:57.592 --> 00:37:00.672
And she said i don't know

524
00:37:00.672 --> 00:37:03.812
he's non-verbal and my thought was you

525
00:37:03.812 --> 00:37:07.332
have been this child or this this this autistic's

526
00:37:07.332 --> 00:37:13.152
mother for 19 years and you still don't understand what they're trying to tell

527
00:37:13.152 --> 00:37:17.452
you and this is another thing that maybe people don't know about about autistics

528
00:37:17.452 --> 00:37:20.952
even if they can't make words with their mouth and that does happen to you sometimes

529
00:37:20.952 --> 00:37:25.172
when you're very stressed and also you can ask them questions i will be like

530
00:37:25.172 --> 00:37:27.132
avram are you upset right now and he'll nod.

531
00:37:28.004 --> 00:37:30.664
So I'm pretty sure if she looked in the back of the car and said,

532
00:37:30.784 --> 00:37:35.664
are you screaming because insert word here, and she did that enough,

533
00:37:35.924 --> 00:37:38.224
he would be able to communicate that to her.

534
00:37:38.784 --> 00:37:42.504
And my first question would be, are you screaming because it's a really exciting

535
00:37:42.504 --> 00:37:45.044
sensation and you're really happy? Because that's what I would assume.

536
00:37:45.524 --> 00:37:49.164
Expression in autistics doesn't always necessarily match the way that they look

537
00:37:49.164 --> 00:37:52.204
or sound. An autistic can appear to be very upset.

538
00:37:52.344 --> 00:37:55.724
They're actually very happy. happy sometimes Avram will

539
00:37:55.724 --> 00:37:58.664
squeal and scream and I still have to stop and

540
00:37:58.664 --> 00:38:01.584
go is he crying or is it a happy sound it's hard

541
00:38:01.584 --> 00:38:04.344
to tell sometimes but even even with you a grown

542
00:38:04.344 --> 00:38:07.564
man sometimes you get so upset you're sitting on the couch and I'm like Masha

543
00:38:07.564 --> 00:38:12.624
are you upset and you'll nod because your mouth isn't making words at that time

544
00:38:12.624 --> 00:38:17.284
and that has to be okay yeah and so it's very talk to me about why you're upset

545
00:38:17.284 --> 00:38:20.964
and you'll not you know you'll shake your head and say okay well I'm I'm going

546
00:38:20.964 --> 00:38:22.824
to give you a log and then we'll talk about it. Okay.

547
00:38:23.404 --> 00:38:26.144
Grown up. 43 year old. Yes.

548
00:38:27.024 --> 00:38:37.084
So the whole concept of nonverbal is frustrating for me because by the logic of some of these people,

549
00:38:37.204 --> 00:38:43.924
a mother will give birth to their baby and then immediately post on a forum.

550
00:38:44.084 --> 00:38:47.624
My infant is nonverbal. I don't know what to do. I'm sorry.

551
00:38:48.264 --> 00:38:53.884
I don't mean to. I just gave birth to a nonverbal. I don't know how to relate to them.

552
00:38:54.704 --> 00:38:57.624
And I've had babies. You had babies.

553
00:38:57.824 --> 00:39:02.624
I mean, I haven't actually physically had babies, but I cared for babies from

554
00:39:02.624 --> 00:39:06.624
the moment that they were born until the present day or most recently.

555
00:39:07.604 --> 00:39:09.824
And I looked at this newborn.

556
00:39:10.891 --> 00:39:14.511
And I thought a lot of things, but I never for one minute thought,

557
00:39:14.691 --> 00:39:16.571
oh, my goodness, my baby is nonverbal.

558
00:39:17.831 --> 00:39:25.151
Because it's expected that you're not going to necessarily understand what your baby wants.

559
00:39:25.471 --> 00:39:28.731
And you could say, and you could very rightly say, Moshe, Leah,

560
00:39:28.971 --> 00:39:31.231
we're not talking about a baby here.

561
00:39:31.291 --> 00:39:33.571
We're talking about a two-year-old, a three-year-old, a five-year-old,

562
00:39:33.571 --> 00:39:35.311
a 10-year-old, a 12-year-old, a 19-year-old.

563
00:39:35.311 --> 00:39:38.731
And and and i would respond to you okay a

564
00:39:38.731 --> 00:39:41.871
new mother who has never had children before and is

565
00:39:41.871 --> 00:39:44.511
holding this new baby doesn't go oh my

566
00:39:44.511 --> 00:39:47.551
gosh my baby is non-verbal but maybe in

567
00:39:47.551 --> 00:39:50.891
a few months or a couple of years you could

568
00:39:50.891 --> 00:39:53.711
go up though he's hungry that's you see what he's doing

569
00:39:53.711 --> 00:39:56.531
that that means he's hungry or no he has to go to the bathroom because he's

570
00:39:56.531 --> 00:39:59.191
doing the thing with his whatever but you've been

571
00:39:59.191 --> 00:40:02.191
this child's parent and you're going my child's non-verbal

572
00:40:02.191 --> 00:40:05.971
i don't know know what to do okay so you know

573
00:40:05.971 --> 00:40:09.851
what what are you doing to understand him right

574
00:40:09.851 --> 00:40:13.931
but that's also an amazing thread you know all these miraculous stories where

575
00:40:13.931 --> 00:40:19.711
autistics are non-verbal and all of a sudden 10 11 or 12 years old because you

576
00:40:19.711 --> 00:40:22.551
know their parents gave them some sort of fiber supplement or whatever that

577
00:40:22.551 --> 00:40:28.491
they started talking the reality is one of the number one signs or

578
00:40:28.571 --> 00:40:31.151
symptoms of autism is developmental delay.

579
00:40:31.311 --> 00:40:36.231
Right. That might have just been when they were able to start talking anyway. Exactly.

580
00:40:37.169 --> 00:40:39.909
And we're not going to get into the science of it because the science is boring

581
00:40:39.909 --> 00:40:42.449
for me. Not for Leah. Leah loves the science.

582
00:40:42.849 --> 00:40:50.069
But when you get an autism diagnosis, it's not just a piece of paper that says autism positive.

583
00:40:51.189 --> 00:40:55.489
There's like a whole series of things. Some might call it a spectrum.

584
00:40:55.849 --> 00:41:00.329
But one of the things that they look at is all the different areas.

585
00:41:00.649 --> 00:41:04.989
He's here on this. He's there on this. He's delayed in this. He's fine on this.

586
00:41:05.069 --> 00:41:08.309
He's normal and walking. talking but in talking he's there and

587
00:41:08.309 --> 00:41:11.409
we're going to get into it because it's actually a really fascinating topic as

588
00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:14.469
you wouldn't even care part of autumn's diagnosis was

589
00:41:14.469 --> 00:41:17.289
they actually manipulated his joints and they're like yeah yeah he's

590
00:41:17.289 --> 00:41:22.009
loose and i went what does that mean apparently that's a thing it is we went

591
00:41:22.009 --> 00:41:25.589
to a neurologist for you the other day and what did she do she said get up and

592
00:41:25.589 --> 00:41:30.009
walk for me back and forth he took two steps she went yeah sit back down i i

593
00:41:30.009 --> 00:41:34.129
was told the other day that i had an autistic walk i'd never before told i had

594
00:41:34.129 --> 00:41:36.969
an autistic walk but now Now I know what an autistic walk is.

595
00:41:37.049 --> 00:41:39.309
I've always known what it was. I just never knew it was an autistic walk.

596
00:41:39.709 --> 00:41:44.649
But the delay, a lot of people look at delays and they think that delays are universal.

597
00:41:45.189 --> 00:41:49.109
And that is a problem. Because if you have a baby, getting back to the concept

598
00:41:49.109 --> 00:41:54.549
of an infant, if you have a baby, the pediatrician or the doctor or whatever,

599
00:41:54.749 --> 00:41:57.789
pardon me, will hand you like a chart.

600
00:41:57.829 --> 00:42:00.549
You can get the chart online that says by this age, they should be doing this.

601
00:42:00.629 --> 00:42:04.189
By this age, they should be doing that. By this age, they should weigh this.

602
00:42:04.189 --> 00:42:07.229
By this age, they should be meeting this milestone.

603
00:42:07.809 --> 00:42:12.649
And a lot of the time, they will meet these milestones, and then they'll still

604
00:42:12.649 --> 00:42:14.929
be autistic. And a lot of times, they won't.

605
00:42:15.209 --> 00:42:18.689
And they won't be autistic. And sometimes they won't, and then they are.

606
00:42:18.869 --> 00:42:20.749
And it becomes very varied.

607
00:42:21.149 --> 00:42:26.909
But you'll end up talking to these parents, and they'll go, he seems so normal. I don't understand.

608
00:42:27.269 --> 00:42:31.689
So, other hit a lot of the milestones that seem to matter to society in general.

609
00:42:31.829 --> 00:42:33.709
And that was why they had a big problem.

610
00:42:34.981 --> 00:42:39.161
Explaining to everyone, including, you know, professionals that we think there's

611
00:42:39.161 --> 00:42:44.141
something wrong here, but we are definitely getting off the topic of communication at this point.

612
00:42:44.161 --> 00:42:46.761
Now we're talking about diagnostic, but we should rein it back in.

613
00:42:46.821 --> 00:42:49.141
Right. So let's talk about non-speaking.

614
00:42:49.741 --> 00:42:54.041
Right. How do you feel about non-speaking? So the definition I found for non-speaking,

615
00:42:54.181 --> 00:42:57.421
and again, you can definitely write it and correct us if we're wrong,

616
00:42:57.521 --> 00:43:01.961
is defined as somebody who has a vocabulary of 30 words or less that they use.

617
00:43:02.081 --> 00:43:08.761
Right. Like, and that goes along with a level three diagnosis of autism,

618
00:43:08.961 --> 00:43:11.421
which we can discuss what that is. I'm con three.

619
00:43:11.821 --> 00:43:15.341
You got a level three autistic in your house. Watch it. Yes.

620
00:43:15.721 --> 00:43:21.661
So I had the bird. Anyway, my opinion for that is, is really my,

621
00:43:21.821 --> 00:43:28.701
my, my opinion of the concept of nonverbal or non-speaking because by whose standards?

622
00:43:29.361 --> 00:43:32.261
Standards maybe maybe somebody just

623
00:43:32.261 --> 00:43:34.961
likes to say a few things he knows

624
00:43:34.961 --> 00:43:39.781
a lot of words he just chooses not to use most of them the average person i

625
00:43:39.781 --> 00:43:44.061
don't actually know because i never did the research they know x number of words

626
00:43:44.061 --> 00:43:48.921
hundreds and hundreds of words but maybe they only use a few words and they're

627
00:43:48.921 --> 00:43:53.321
they're labeled as autistic because of that but by whose standards are they

628
00:43:53.361 --> 00:43:57.621
minimally, you know, do they have that minimal whatever?

629
00:43:57.941 --> 00:44:01.101
But it's funny because that's actually a tactic to teach someone a new language

630
00:44:01.101 --> 00:44:05.821
is you provide them with the top, you know, 60 or 100 words that occur over

631
00:44:05.821 --> 00:44:07.921
and over and over in that language and they memorize them.

632
00:44:08.141 --> 00:44:12.681
Right. So if you're effectively communicating with 30 words, what's the difference?

633
00:44:13.641 --> 00:44:18.681
Exactly. And it really also depends. And this is why we went into diagnostics,

634
00:44:18.701 --> 00:44:22.741
maybe a little bit too in depth, but it's going to be a topic eventually. So we'll touch on it now.

635
00:44:23.567 --> 00:44:31.967
That when you have a child like me, my metrics were that I was advanced in comprehension,

636
00:44:32.027 --> 00:44:35.327
in speaking, and in reading.

637
00:44:35.427 --> 00:44:38.507
But I was very delayed in mobility.

638
00:44:38.747 --> 00:44:44.367
I still struggle sometimes to walk, and I walked as a baby very late.

639
00:44:44.767 --> 00:44:48.987
So, when I was using big words, like I said in the the first,

640
00:44:49.007 --> 00:44:53.367
like, filthy, then you go, oh, wow, he's really smart.

641
00:44:53.707 --> 00:44:58.987
No, I mean, he is, because I'm very smart. But I was very advanced in that.

642
00:44:59.087 --> 00:45:00.567
And I like using big words.

643
00:45:00.907 --> 00:45:06.227
Somebody might not use the word filthy. They might use very minimal words, dirty.

644
00:45:06.647 --> 00:45:11.387
And that doesn't necessarily mean that they are minimally, you know, talking.

645
00:45:11.547 --> 00:45:15.947
It just could mean that they are able to summarize their thoughts That's in fewer words.

646
00:45:16.187 --> 00:45:18.967
Again, that brings us back to the original, you know what I mean?

647
00:45:19.007 --> 00:45:23.247
That the messenger is saying the message and the person is receiving it.

648
00:45:23.327 --> 00:45:26.567
So if you're receiving the message with the word filthy or the word dirty,

649
00:45:26.627 --> 00:45:28.327
does it really matter? Exactly.

650
00:45:28.967 --> 00:45:35.407
I tend to be a walking thesaurus sometimes. But just because you use basic words

651
00:45:35.407 --> 00:45:41.007
to express yourself, it doesn't mean that your ability to talk is minimum.

652
00:45:41.007 --> 00:45:43.787
Them like if i knew 30 recipes wouldn't that be enough to

653
00:45:43.787 --> 00:45:46.787
feed us for the rest of eternity right but yes but

654
00:45:46.787 --> 00:45:49.807
what i would i then look at you and go well her her cooking ability

655
00:45:49.807 --> 00:45:52.627
is very minimal she only does 30 things with with

656
00:45:52.627 --> 00:45:57.707
like exactly no she's an amazing cook she just knows that those 30 things are

657
00:45:57.707 --> 00:46:01.627
are enough to get by it so why would you need to know everything i could know

658
00:46:01.627 --> 00:46:06.727
thousands of different words does it really matter if i'm making my my point

659
00:46:06.727 --> 00:46:10.267
really right so So yeah, that kind of irks me that way.

660
00:46:10.487 --> 00:46:15.907
I think that the whole level three autistic and ADOS thing is more of a biomostics discussion.

661
00:46:16.107 --> 00:46:19.347
So let's leave it for another episode, I think. Sure.

662
00:46:19.427 --> 00:46:23.247
Do we want to make any last points about this whole minimally verbal,

663
00:46:23.587 --> 00:46:26.067
nonverbal, verbal situation?

664
00:46:27.267 --> 00:46:33.267
I think if I can just make one final point and then move on to the final point,

665
00:46:33.507 --> 00:46:40.447
the concept concept of nonverbal, which, as I mentioned, is a very sensitive

666
00:46:40.447 --> 00:46:43.987
subject for a lot of parents of autistic children.

667
00:46:44.227 --> 00:46:48.807
And believe you me, Leigh and I are going to be devoting probably multiple episodes

668
00:46:48.807 --> 00:46:51.707
just to autistic children.

669
00:46:52.247 --> 00:46:58.887
So, for right now, we're focusing more or less on our relationship as a married

670
00:46:58.887 --> 00:47:02.747
couple and on autistic adults, because I am an autistic adult.

671
00:47:02.967 --> 00:47:07.467
And if we have the opportunity to talk to Avram at some point,

672
00:47:07.527 --> 00:47:10.407
which I hope we will, then you can get that perspective.

673
00:47:10.647 --> 00:47:13.127
He told us he will. Great. Because.

674
00:47:14.439 --> 00:47:17.799
The point that I'm trying to make, and so we can move on to the next topic,

675
00:47:17.919 --> 00:47:24.679
is the idea of nonverbal is very cult, especially when you're very young.

676
00:47:24.879 --> 00:47:29.439
Because even though autistics are delayed in many ways, when they're already

677
00:47:29.439 --> 00:47:33.579
so small and they're relatively fresh to the world, we'll say,

678
00:47:33.699 --> 00:47:36.879
their own ability is going to be limited.

679
00:47:36.959 --> 00:47:43.079
And for a new mom or new dad or a new parent, we'll say, to look at this child

680
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.239
who is now three, four, five, six,

681
00:47:45.379 --> 00:47:52.079
seven, eight, nine, 10 years old, who really can only use a few words or no words at all.

682
00:47:53.019 --> 00:47:57.479
It's very frustrating. And when we talk about our own feelings about it,

683
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:03.179
it's not to diminish your own feelings of how you feel about it.

684
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:06.619
And it's not to say that you're wrong, or you're doing a bad job,

685
00:48:06.759 --> 00:48:08.179
or you're not doing the best you can.

686
00:48:08.279 --> 00:48:11.559
It's simply to express us in an overall sense

687
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:14.999
are our feelings about how everybody

688
00:48:14.999 --> 00:48:18.599
with almost very few exceptions is

689
00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:22.219
able to communicate somehow so saying

690
00:48:22.219 --> 00:48:25.919
that someone is non-verbal reads like

691
00:48:25.919 --> 00:48:28.839
they're non-communicative it's one of those labels that's

692
00:48:28.839 --> 00:48:32.439
maybe more harmful than you know so maybe a

693
00:48:32.439 --> 00:48:36.039
better word is a better term

694
00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:39.399
we'll say than non-verbal or minimally verbal or

695
00:48:39.399 --> 00:48:44.519
non-speaking or non-talking or whatever is differently communicative it's a

696
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:49.779
long mouthful of a word but it's much more expressive of what's going on than

697
00:48:49.779 --> 00:48:54.119
just saying he's non-verbal anyway right actually this brings to me another

698
00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:58.159
topic within the subtopic but we have to discuss it very quickly what about

699
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:59.339
going Going non-verbal.

700
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:03.199
Do you know what I mean about going non-verbal? So, for example,

701
00:49:03.299 --> 00:49:07.799
we had a friend who was very verbal, if you want to say it that way.

702
00:49:07.919 --> 00:49:13.159
When he gets sick, he ceases to speak for maybe a week at a time.

703
00:49:13.579 --> 00:49:17.519
Yes. That is a thing that seems to happen to a lot of autistics.

704
00:49:18.019 --> 00:49:20.859
The question is, do we be afraid of it? Is it permanent?

705
00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:26.319
What's going on there? so unfortunately we

706
00:49:26.319 --> 00:49:34.799
have very little time to to to discuss you know non non topics related to the

707
00:49:34.799 --> 00:49:39.279
idea of communication and this is definitely related to communication but i

708
00:49:39.279 --> 00:49:43.179
have a lot of opinions on this which which i want to share in a future episode

709
00:49:43.179 --> 00:49:45.439
but for now what i will say is,

710
00:49:46.811 --> 00:49:53.111
Being autistic is a constant ordering of thoughts and feelings and expressions

711
00:49:53.111 --> 00:49:55.551
and experiences and stimulation.

712
00:49:56.111 --> 00:50:04.051
And a lot of that is hard work. And when you are ill or when you are upset or

713
00:50:04.051 --> 00:50:13.171
when you are in some way not in control of all of the inner mechanics of what's going on in you,

714
00:50:13.311 --> 00:50:15.731
a lot of things kind of let go.

715
00:50:15.731 --> 00:50:18.511
And if you think of an autistic like a

716
00:50:18.511 --> 00:50:21.771
person standing in a field holding a bunch of balloons and one

717
00:50:21.771 --> 00:50:24.891
balloon says talking one balloon says cleaning and

718
00:50:24.891 --> 00:50:28.911
one balloon says you know learning then you

719
00:50:28.911 --> 00:50:31.871
can't always hold all those balloons sometimes the talking balloon

720
00:50:31.871 --> 00:50:34.611
floats away and until you

721
00:50:34.611 --> 00:50:37.371
can get it back you're trying so hard to

722
00:50:37.371 --> 00:50:40.171
hold on to the rest of the balloons that you lose one of the other ones and

723
00:50:40.171 --> 00:50:43.051
it's it's called i believe regression and it's

724
00:50:43.051 --> 00:50:46.071
a lot of the time it's completely temporary but it does happen

725
00:50:46.071 --> 00:50:49.851
and it's simply a result of the

726
00:50:49.851 --> 00:50:52.691
functionality of the neurodivergent or the autistic

727
00:50:52.691 --> 00:50:55.851
being reduced because of

728
00:50:55.851 --> 00:51:00.451
other external factors because i have heard the fear that it's permanent um

729
00:51:00.451 --> 00:51:04.631
from my own mother actually she would be concerned that if avram wasn't being

730
00:51:04.631 --> 00:51:08.351
himself she would say oh my goodness i hope he starts to talk again and i would

731
00:51:08.351 --> 00:51:12.611
say with all confidence because i know our son that absolutely he will but it

732
00:51:12.611 --> 00:51:13.871
is a concern so So that's something.

733
00:51:14.091 --> 00:51:16.551
Again, right into us. Tell us if it's a concern for you.

734
00:51:16.651 --> 00:51:20.071
We can bring it up in a future episode. And it has to do a lot of the time as

735
00:51:20.071 --> 00:51:21.371
well with different kinds of traumas.

736
00:51:21.551 --> 00:51:25.251
But we can definitely get into it in a later episode, but we have to move on.

737
00:51:25.271 --> 00:51:28.891
But for now, please tell us your experiences. And if you have any experience

738
00:51:28.891 --> 00:51:32.791
with neurodivergence and autistics becoming non-verbal activity.

739
00:51:33.471 --> 00:51:36.991
Anyway. All right. So now this is one actually for the neurotypicals more,

740
00:51:37.131 --> 00:51:42.011
because we're going to discuss communication styles. And these are for everyone.

741
00:51:42.922 --> 00:51:47.202
We're going to see where the pitfalls could be in between two differently functional people.

742
00:51:47.622 --> 00:51:50.622
But there are four main communication status. We're going to put up a really

743
00:51:50.622 --> 00:51:52.602
good graphic that's found actually about that.

744
00:51:52.802 --> 00:51:56.302
The first is passive. So passive means that you don't speak up.

745
00:51:56.342 --> 00:51:59.762
You're very shy. You're afraid of people judging you. You keep all of your feelings.

746
00:52:00.322 --> 00:52:04.522
And that absolutely leads to nobody knowing you or knowing what you want ever.

747
00:52:05.122 --> 00:52:10.202
Then you have aggressive. So you bring yourself across with anger and judgment,

748
00:52:10.442 --> 00:52:16.502
inflexibility. and that can cause a very hostile environment in terms of your

749
00:52:16.502 --> 00:52:17.942
communication with other people.

750
00:52:18.302 --> 00:52:20.382
Then there's the passive-aggressive.

751
00:52:20.962 --> 00:52:24.962
You hold on to those negative feelings, but you don't necessarily verbalize

752
00:52:24.962 --> 00:52:30.622
them, but it will affect or your emotions will affect future communication and

753
00:52:30.622 --> 00:52:34.302
that will often lead to confusion and resentment on both parties.

754
00:52:34.702 --> 00:52:37.822
The last is assertive, which seems to be the healthiest one.

755
00:52:38.522 --> 00:52:42.082
It's confident but respectful of the other person's feelings and it opens you

756
00:52:42.082 --> 00:52:43.922
up to honest and healthy conversation.

757
00:52:44.882 --> 00:52:49.042
So in terms of communication styles, I've already identified that I'm assertive.

758
00:52:49.262 --> 00:52:51.562
What do you think your communication style is?

759
00:52:52.922 --> 00:52:57.522
I've often been sort of vacillating between passive and passive-aggressive.

760
00:52:58.649 --> 00:53:04.589
Spurts of aggressive. Assertive is definitely something that I have often struggled with.

761
00:53:05.369 --> 00:53:11.609
And that is a lot to do with my past experiences, which we may or may not get

762
00:53:11.609 --> 00:53:15.689
into in a later episode, because it doesn't necessarily have to do with neurodivergency

763
00:53:15.689 --> 00:53:17.749
or autism, and it's mostly just a personal thing.

764
00:53:18.069 --> 00:53:22.969
But what we can discuss about it is that autistics tend to be,

765
00:53:23.009 --> 00:53:27.009
and again, one autistic, one experience, but they tend to be very suggestible.

766
00:53:27.389 --> 00:53:32.889
And And when you are in a situation where you are suggestible,

767
00:53:32.889 --> 00:53:39.269
like I am, and I'll admit it, then you can sometimes get pigeonholed into a communication style.

768
00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:46.749
Because autistics, and again, just my experience, but autistics often are very,

769
00:53:46.809 --> 00:53:48.889
to use the Freudian term, in-focused.

770
00:53:49.289 --> 00:53:52.569
When they want something, they tell you what they want. When they're uncomfortable,

771
00:53:52.909 --> 00:53:53.729
they say they're uncomfortable.

772
00:53:54.049 --> 00:54:00.669
When they're unhappy, they say they're unhappy. and they express themselves in these overt ways.

773
00:54:00.889 --> 00:54:05.389
The people in my life often called me histrionic or drama queen or whatever,

774
00:54:05.469 --> 00:54:10.229
but they express themselves in these overt ways and they scream and they cry

775
00:54:10.229 --> 00:54:12.169
when they stub their toe or they're very unhappy.

776
00:54:12.349 --> 00:54:18.389
So they descend into this Shakespearean level of melancholy that causes them

777
00:54:18.389 --> 00:54:20.609
to just give up the will to live or whatever.

778
00:54:20.709 --> 00:54:25.589
But the fact is when we experience emotions, they're often very extreme.

779
00:54:25.889 --> 00:54:28.689
And people who are around us that don't necessarily know how to deal with it,

780
00:54:28.729 --> 00:54:30.729
they'll punch them down.

781
00:54:30.889 --> 00:54:35.209
No, just stop acting that way. Stop screaming. Stop acting up.

782
00:54:35.409 --> 00:54:37.969
Stop. Just stop. Just stop. Calm down.

783
00:54:38.229 --> 00:54:43.849
And oftentimes, a lot of autistics will take that to mean not that they should

784
00:54:43.849 --> 00:54:46.289
temper themselves, but that they should just shut down completely.

785
00:54:47.229 --> 00:54:50.269
So my experience, and again, this is harder than the experience,

786
00:54:50.349 --> 00:54:52.609
is that you should approach in the action like that of curiosity.

787
00:54:53.209 --> 00:54:56.729
What happened? What's wrong? wrong, how can we calm this down?

788
00:54:57.989 --> 00:55:01.109
So yes, I actually do have a question for you. So do you think you could be

789
00:55:01.109 --> 00:55:05.909
in a successful relationship with another aggressive communicator or another

790
00:55:05.909 --> 00:55:07.549
passive aggressive communicator?

791
00:55:07.709 --> 00:55:11.429
Or do you think it's necessary to have sort of an open and honest assertive

792
00:55:11.429 --> 00:55:12.669
communicator? Well, the two?

793
00:55:14.304 --> 00:55:18.204
Optimize our understanding of each other, for example? So, autistics,

794
00:55:18.324 --> 00:55:23.184
and again, I use the general term, but my own experience is my own experience.

795
00:55:23.404 --> 00:55:25.664
And again, if your experience is different, let me know.

796
00:55:25.984 --> 00:55:29.704
But autistics in general function better with clear instructions.

797
00:55:30.524 --> 00:55:35.704
One of the things that always really bothered me about being in Israel is that

798
00:55:35.704 --> 00:55:37.644
Israelis are very general.

799
00:55:37.844 --> 00:55:41.544
They'll say it's over there, or it's right there, or it's over here.

800
00:55:41.924 --> 00:55:44.804
And they don't give specifics. They go, where's the bathroom?

801
00:55:45.184 --> 00:55:47.964
They'll go, it's over there. Where? They'll just sort of wave in a general vicinity.

802
00:55:48.324 --> 00:55:52.704
And if a statistic doesn't have clear instructions, they don't necessarily know what to do.

803
00:55:53.344 --> 00:55:57.544
So, being with somebody who doesn't give clear instructions,

804
00:55:57.644 --> 00:56:03.364
or being with someone who gives unclear instructions, like, for example, passive aggressive.

805
00:56:03.364 --> 00:56:09.724
Geez it would be real nice so someone could do the dishes moshe yeah you're right and then walk away.

806
00:56:11.424 --> 00:56:18.124
Or gosh i'm always having to tidy up your mess is passive-aggressive because

807
00:56:18.124 --> 00:56:22.764
it doesn't give clear instructions the person feels that they're being clear

808
00:56:22.764 --> 00:56:27.104
and the really sad thing is sometimes autistics do that too because their version

809
00:56:27.104 --> 00:56:30.484
of communicating doesn't always fit into these these categories.

810
00:56:31.384 --> 00:56:34.384
But that's where I think you will say something, wow, thanks full,

811
00:56:34.464 --> 00:56:37.924
it would be nice if someone did the dishes and I'll say, Moshe,

812
00:56:38.044 --> 00:56:39.764
would you like me to do the dishes?

813
00:56:40.784 --> 00:56:47.464
Right. You could just say so. Right. And that's not meant to be, you know, bad Moshe.

814
00:56:48.084 --> 00:56:51.724
It's meant to help communication, which is the topic that we're in.

815
00:56:52.044 --> 00:56:56.944
And it works with kids and it works with adults. And it really comes down to clear instructions.

816
00:56:57.404 --> 00:56:59.384
What do you want? What do you need?

817
00:56:59.944 --> 00:57:03.704
Tell me what it is that you're looking for. And often that interaction will

818
00:57:03.704 --> 00:57:05.904
end with me throwing you a towel and was doing the dishes.

819
00:57:06.044 --> 00:57:10.204
Exactly. And crisis averted, where some people could fight over that for all night.

820
00:57:11.757 --> 00:57:18.637
So, assertive communication, which is, as Leah said, the key or the most ideal

821
00:57:18.637 --> 00:57:23.317
form of communication is expressing your needs in a way that is…,

822
00:57:23.857 --> 00:57:27.137
Sort of considerate of the other person. That is considerate of the other person, but clear.

823
00:57:27.657 --> 00:57:32.377
Because a lot of the time I've said to Leah, I don't want to come across as mean.

824
00:57:32.797 --> 00:57:34.537
And she'll say, well, do you want

825
00:57:34.537 --> 00:57:40.217
it to be done? Then tell them that you want it to be done and mean it.

826
00:57:40.217 --> 00:57:43.797
Don't just say do the dishes when there's

827
00:57:43.797 --> 00:57:46.677
like one dish in the sink for the sake of doing

828
00:57:46.677 --> 00:57:51.537
it or just aggressive communicators are often bullies almost always bullies

829
00:57:51.537 --> 00:57:55.797
because they don't have any rhyme or reason for their for their emphasis we'll

830
00:57:55.797 --> 00:58:00.797
say they just want it and they want it done now or they need it done now or

831
00:58:00.797 --> 00:58:05.557
they're very expressive but without any grounding someone who unfortunately

832
00:58:05.557 --> 00:58:05.997
Unfortunately, I forgot,

833
00:58:06.157 --> 00:58:10.717
told me a better definition of assertive that I can't actually recall right now.

834
00:58:10.897 --> 00:58:15.857
But what I think that I would like to put out into the podcasting universe is

835
00:58:15.857 --> 00:58:20.157
if you have a really good definition of the different communication styles.

836
00:58:20.577 --> 00:58:25.217
Assertive, passive, passive, aggressive, and aggressive, then let us know.

837
00:58:25.277 --> 00:58:29.957
And in particular, if someone is assertive, what does that mean to you?

838
00:58:30.037 --> 00:58:33.057
What is the difference between aggressive and assertive?

839
00:58:33.177 --> 00:58:35.797
Okay, I can be honest. as being a woman i've been called the b

840
00:58:35.797 --> 00:58:39.117
word more than once right because a woman is

841
00:58:39.117 --> 00:58:41.917
not allowed to be aggressive sort of they can

842
00:58:41.917 --> 00:58:44.677
be assertive because but then they're they're

843
00:58:44.677 --> 00:58:53.057
labeled whatever yeah yeah right so we are coming definitely to the end of the

844
00:58:53.057 --> 00:58:57.437
along talking you probably want to listen to at this point we have more topics

845
00:58:57.437 --> 00:59:00.997
even that we intended to do in this episode i'll just touch on them real quick,

846
00:59:01.097 --> 00:59:02.757
because they're very interesting.

847
00:59:03.017 --> 00:59:05.937
So the double empathy problem, you can Google that and put that up,

848
00:59:05.977 --> 00:59:09.037
but we're going to discuss it and how it leads to misunderstandings.

849
00:59:09.317 --> 00:59:13.777
How long does effective communication take? That's a very personal talk with Moshe and I.

850
00:59:13.917 --> 00:59:16.897
There's no ideal for that. And we're just going to discuss how long effective

851
00:59:16.897 --> 00:59:18.317
communication takes for us.

852
00:59:18.877 --> 00:59:23.437
And eye contact. So why eye contact is difficult for autistics?

853
00:59:23.637 --> 00:59:26.537
Should we insist on eye contact? Is it a thing?

854
00:59:26.897 --> 00:59:32.217
When is eye contact appropriate? And some of the science behind why eye contact is difficult.

855
00:59:33.257 --> 00:59:39.897
Right. So we'll sign off now to avoid making the episode any longer than it needs to be.

856
00:59:40.177 --> 00:59:48.117
But I will say that communication is going to be an ongoing thing for us in terms of topics.

857
00:59:48.157 --> 00:59:51.337
But it's also an ongoing thing for any relationship.

858
00:59:51.357 --> 00:59:56.217
And in particular, even though we're doing episodes or podcasts about communications,

859
00:59:56.537 --> 01:00:00.677
it's still a work in progress for Leigh and I. So if you're having communication issues.

860
01:00:02.224 --> 01:00:06.844
Feel free to let us know, but don't feel down on yourself because it's going

861
01:00:06.844 --> 01:00:09.104
to continue to evolve if you want it to.

862
01:00:09.944 --> 01:00:14.804
Absolutely. So write in, let us know. Even if you want some advice from a couple

863
01:00:14.804 --> 01:00:19.464
of non-professionals, we might even feature your story.

864
01:00:19.904 --> 01:00:24.264
For sure. Might be helpful to people. Also, don't forget on whatever podcasting

865
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app you're using, download, rate, share.

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01:00:27.164 --> 01:00:30.744
We hope that you really enjoy what we have to offer and we're excited to give you more.

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That's our show for today now you know it just

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a little bit better so something you may not know about some autistics is that

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we often struggle with ending social interactions so Leah all right Moshe i'll take

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01:00:48.704 --> 01:00:53.584
care of it thank you for listening to now you know one autistic see you next week.

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Music.