Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
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Music.
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Hi, I'm Moshe and I'm autistic. I'm Leah and I'm boring.
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Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,
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marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.
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The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.
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Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion.
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And unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the
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many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.
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But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will
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be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,
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a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.
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If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,
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consult your family doctor.
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Music.
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Hey Moshe hi leah so today we're starting episode two which is going to be i
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think at least three episodes worth but maybe not back to back so we can give
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the listeners a little bit of a break from this topic for sure what topic do
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you think we're going to be doing today so last week was
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an introduction to who we are.
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And we sort of discussed a bit about what brought us together and what brought us to do this podcast.
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And today, we're going to basically get into the, I guess you could call it
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the meat, what is going to be a topic, but it's also going to be sort of sprinkled
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liberally throughout all the episodes that we do going forward forever, probably.
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But it's going to be about communication. So, you would say we're going to be
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communicating about communication then?
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We're going to be communicating about communication. Okay.
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We should probably start with the definition of what communication is.
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I think a lot of people out there might think they know what communication is,
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but do they? It's really hard to say.
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Communication is one of those things you don't often think about because it
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sort of forms the basis or the background noise, we'll call it,
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of just regular social interactions.
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But when it comes to people who are neurodivergent and people who are autistic.
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It's not so simple is it yes but
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as you know me i'm a huge nerd and of course i did some research and
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even i was blown away by some of the definitions of communication it's
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not only what i thought so communication can be identified as a message it can
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be identified as a means of communication so like a cell phone that's communications
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um but we're really only interested in one of the definitions when it comes
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to what we're talking about and i will We'll read it verbatim because it's a very good one.
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So this is from Miriam Webster, and it is the successful conveying or sharing of ideas and feelings.
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That's a very good and concise definition. Right. So the key word here is successful.
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Success, yes. Can we just establish that we haven't always been successful in
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conveying or sharing our ideas and feelings?
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Not at all. We've never not had an issue. And in fact, kind of skipping ahead
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a little bit, communication is an ongoing thing.
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It's going to be an ongoing thing in any relationship, but especially when you
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have the kind of relationship that we have, and especially when you have the
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kind of relationship that anybody who has the kind of relationship that we have
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is going to have, you're looking at...
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Neurodiversity versus neurotypical. You're looking at autistic versus,
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we'll say non-autistic.
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We're looking at... One of the terms is holistic. I don't think that one's offensive.
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I guess we could call it, I don't know. I'll put it to the listeners.
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Do you feel that holistic is a more socially acceptable term than neurotypical?
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So I'll do what I do for Moshe and Avram. I'm going to give you three choices.
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Your choices are neurotypical, allistic, or non-autistic.
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Which one do you think we should use?
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Well, personally, I have always used neurotypical just because it is a fairly
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accurate way, at least in my own opinion.
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And of course, it's just the opinion of one autistic that it better describes
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the differences. Because if you say allistic, it could be a word.
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It could be a word referring to anything. Allistic means nothing to me.
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But when you create the contrast between neurodivergent and neurotypical,
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then you are creating that divide between this is the typical experience.
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And again, typical according to who.
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But it's the typical, quote unquote, experience for, we'll say,
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the majority of the population.
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And then you have the people like me and like other neurodivergents who are
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a little bit off the path,
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maybe a little, maybe a lot, but it's not what you would look at or listen to
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and think that that's about right.
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You go, I don't know about that way of doing things. So I'd like to pose it
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to the audience, really.
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Message us, post on the forums or whatever it is that you do.
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You can tell that I don't do the technical part of this.
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But let us know what you think and we'll try to incorporate it.
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And I just want to say for the record, because we are doing our first episode
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today on the topic of communication, that I really, or Leah and I both really
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appreciate all the communication that has been sent our way since the first episode.
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The response has been phenomenal.
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There's been a lot of feedback and a lot of people who have reached out to me
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personally, who have been very excited for the next episode and to see where the podcast goes.
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They've said that it's a really great topic. And you'll often see me, if you're on Facebook,
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going to a lot of these groups that deal with autism and stuff and sort of giving
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the podcast's feedback on behalf of Leigh and I, or she might do it, or I might do it.
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It's really been a great response. And I'm so happy.
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And please, please, please comment, message, whatever podcasting app you're using.
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Rate us. If you like the podcast, say five stars, you did a great job or one
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star, you guys are terrible. It doesn't really matter.
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Any feedback is better than no feedback. And if you want to send us a private
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message, we have an email address.
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I didn't mention it in the last episode, but I don't know. It slipped my mind.
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Contact us now, you know, one autistic.com and it's all one word,
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no spaces, no underscores.
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Boards just contact us at now you
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know one autistic duck that is simple for our
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listeners and that's a very good idea so let's get
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into what would be again we like to use the word typical versus non-typical
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a typical communicative interaction so the way communication will work typically
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is that there is a sender so the person has something that they want to convey to the other person.
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So for example, I would be the sender. Now there's a message.
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Let's give an example of a message that I have a lot. Moshe,
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you left something on the floor. Can you please pick that up?
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And then there's a recipient who would be Moshe in this case.
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And in order for him to receive that message, a lot of things have to happen.
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One, he has to be engaged in listening. Two, he has to process the things I've said.
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Three, he has to be in the mood to hear if he's He's in a bad mood.
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He's like, give me a minute. I'm busy.
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Any of those things can go wrong at any time. And that is true between neurotypicals
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as well, between two autistics as well, or between, you know,
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an allistic and an autistic person.
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That's typically how an interaction would go.
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And you hope that by the time the sender gets the message to the recipient that
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it goes well and it's handled in a respectful and productive manner. Mm-hmm.
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So it's three parts, but it is one of the most complicated aspects of any relationship,
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between one autistic and one non-autistic or one holistic.
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Sounds so simple, right? It does sound simple. You have three steps,
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step one, step two, and step three.
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And the amount of work that has to go into, you know, how the sender is saying what they're saying.
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Is the sender making sure that the recipient is even listening?
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How many times have we come to the end of a half an hour argument?
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And the answer is, I just couldn't receive the message you were giving me with
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the words you used, you needed to use these words.
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The message is very important. The sender and how they present it is very important.
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The recipient and whether they are receiving it.
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And this actually allows us to get into another topic, which I don't know that
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we actually discussed in preparation for the episode.
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And that is a very important thing when we're talking about these three steps.
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And that is the difference between hearing and listening.
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Because a lot of, I mean, let's be honest here, a lot of people,
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but also in particular neurodivergence or whatever you want to call them,
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autistics, we'll say in this case, because I'm autistic, so that's how I relate.
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Autistics always express that there's going to be a difference between hearing
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someone and listening someone. Hearing is passive.
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Listening is active. It's the difference between speaking and talking.
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Hearing means you basically have sounds enter your ears. What your mind does
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with them is really up in the air.
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If you are in a room and there is a sound, for example, if the air conditioning
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is on, I'm hearing it because it's on.
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But if there's something wrong with it, I'm not really listening.
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And you'll go, do you hear something's wrong with the air conditioning? I go, I don't know.
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Well, can you hear it? Oh, yeah, I can hear it. But I'm not listening for it.
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Right. That'll typically go the other way, actually.
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You'll hear something and be like, something is off. And I don't notice it because of your ADHD.
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It's a superpower, I guess. if you want to call it that we'll call it a superpower
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but you know Moshe has another layer of things to deal with which honestly I
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have to almost give him a medal for this because.
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I can see from his perspective how difficult and impossible
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it would be and there's this other layer of
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hearing versus listening where I
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gave the example of Moshe you left let's say your underwear on the
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floor again pick him up and he'll go okay and
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pick him up but if he doesn't go over and i'm so sorry and
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i understand and i acknowledge that that's so frustrating for you i will
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turn around and go do you understand how it made me feel that you left
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your underwear on the floor again after we've talked about it and that is where
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we we get off because i am you know what's neurotypical and a woman so i'm all
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about the do you understand how that made me do you know what you did wrong
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and that's got to be like just i give him a medal for dealing with that.
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That is an interesting point because when we talk about hearing versus listening and we talk about,
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Even between hearing and listening, there's subcategories between hearing,
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what type of hearing you're using, and what type of listening you're doing.
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Because you could, for example, say, Moshe, your underwear on the floor. I could hear you.
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I'm listening to you. So I go, oh, okay, pick them up, put them away,
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go back to doing what I was doing.
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But what I'm not listening for is tone, demeanor, nonverbal body language,
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intonation, because this is the sixth time that I've left my underwear on the
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floor this week, and Leigh is getting a little bit upset.
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So it's not just a matter of, oh, I'll do it, and then I'll forget again.
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I have to be able to go, oh, you know what?
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It sounds like you're getting a bit annoyed. I'm really sorry.
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Have I been doing this a lot? Yes, you have, Moshe.
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Okay, I'm really sorry. I'm going to make a greater effort to pick up my underwear.
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That way you're acknowledging feelings.
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And to be honest with you, I
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totally know that the next day his underwear is going to be on the floor.
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But just the fact that he cares is all I needed. And I can move on and pick
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it up for the rest of the week.
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And that's kind of a level two or three concept.
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We'll get into the differences between understanding something and doing something
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in a later episode, because it's actually a really big topic,
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especially when it comes to autistics.
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And just to quickly, quickly touch on it, because in fact, it's one of those
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things you could make a whole episode about.
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It really comes down to understanding the why of it. You can understand the
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what of it. I want you to do this.
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So we've established that I know what you want me to do, and so I do it.
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But do I know why you want me to do it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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Did you explain why you wanted me to do it? Sometimes yes, sometimes no.
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If no, maybe I need to clarify.
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And when it comes to, and again, this is just a real surface level thing.
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When it comes to the consistent change in behavior that you're trying to get,
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and again, Again, I just want to note for the record that this is not like unique
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to autistics. It can happen to anyone.
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But autistics in particular are singled out because of the processing delay,
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which is another topic that we won't get into in this episode.
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But it's a really important thing.
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You have to establish that if you know why you're doing a thing,
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it's far easier to consistently do the behavior because then you start checking yourself.
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I also want to establish that we're not indicating that any autistic or non-autistic
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person should change or want to change.
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It's if you want to change to be able to better communicate with your partner
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or your children or your co-workers or anything.
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But if you're happy with who you are, we're definitely not indicating that just
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because you're differently processing or whatever that you should change.
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Right. There's nothing wrong with being autistic. There's nothing wrong with
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leaving your underwear on the floor.
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If you're happy with leaving your underwear on the floor, there's nothing wrong
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with leaving your underwear on your floor if you have a partner or a roommate
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or someone who accepts that that's just something that you do.
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But what we're talking about in this episode and throughout the podcast is if
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you are a neurodivergent or in particular an autistic person,
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and that goes hand in hand with ADHD,
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which is, again, another really advanced topic, that you want to understand the why of it.
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Because a lot of autistics, I know I was, were in a position where they were
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like, I don't have a really easy time with friends.
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I don't have a really easy time with partners. Nobody really wants to be around me.
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I don't know why. And then you just go on with your life. Right.
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So this concept, and I'm not exaggerating to two and a half years,
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listen to the efficiency and ease of this topic, okay?
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Moshe would do nothing unless he understood inside and out why it was necessary,
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why he was doing it, why it had to be a thing.
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He agreed with it in all aspects. And then it was been like a thorough going
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over. And I would get very upset.
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And one day I just looked at him and said, do you care about me?
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And he said, yeah. I said, if you care about me, can you just do it?
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And he said, that's a thing I can do. And I said, yeah, you don't have to understand everything.
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If someone you love and trust, and you know won't ask you to do anything against
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yourself, ask you to do something, sometimes you can just do it.
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And trust in a relationship with an aversion to an autistic is also a very interesting concept.
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But if you can establish a rapport with someone who is neurodivergent the way
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that Leah has established a rapport with me, and that can come through months
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or years of established work,
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and a genuine, genuine interest in attempting to form the bonds with me that she wanted to,
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then you really kind of armor yourself.
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Because you can, in effect, out-logic the autistic, like me.
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So, we can establish that I am doing this because you know that I care about
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you. You can agree that I care about you.
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So, you can agree that if I ask you to do something, it's not for selfish or incorrect reasons.
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It's because I care about you. Can we agree on this? Yes.
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Okay. So, can we establish that if I ask you to do something,
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with very few exceptions, it's because it's important to me?
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Can we establish that? Yes. Okay.
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So, how about this? In instances where I ask you to do something and you don't
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readily understand why you're doing it, and we can definitely discuss that at
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a later time, but in the moment,
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if I ask you to do something, the default,
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even if you don't understand the why of it, is because I care about you and
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I have your best interest in mind and I love you.
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Can that be a thing that you just kind of fall back on so that you don't turn
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every single request to pick up your underwear into like an interview.
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And, and eventually, and there's a lot of yada, yada, yada to use the Seinfeld
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term, which hopefully isn't copyrighted that we got to that point where now
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Leo will ask me to do something.
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And my default will either be, I understand why based on our history,
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or I don't really know why she's asking me to do that, but I,
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I love her and I care about her and I want to make her happy.
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So that's going to be enough. And then I was probably have time later.
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You'll ask me and probably explain it. And then that's okay. Right.
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So let's move to some topic within this topic, obviously, the different ways
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that somebody can communicate.
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So the obvious one is spoken.
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What does spoken communication look like? Often it looks like language.
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Often it looks like words. Often it looks like a common language,
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right? So I'm speaking English to you.
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You understand English. You're speaking English to me. Right.
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Where you get into difficulties with that is when people don't speak the same language,
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for example and a thing
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that people should know about autistics
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versus non-autistics is that often even if you're speaking
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the same language you're not speaking the same language words don't
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evoke the same feelings for you necessarily you've
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described a phenomenon to me where you will grab a
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word that's adjacent to the word that you want to say because that's
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what your brain is doing you or we
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discover together that a lot of times you think in memories so
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you will say something that's totally bonkers to me
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like we're driving down the road and it's crashing
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and like we're not even in a car but you're expressing a memory to me that conveys
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the same feeling and i'm expected to understand that right right um so that's
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where you get into the fact that That spoken is actually not necessarily as
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simple as you think it is. Right.
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The next is nonverbal. So what does nonverbal communication look like?
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You're much a better expert at that than I am, actually.
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From what I saw and what I know through many incarnations in my careers and
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stuff, is that nonverbal generally will look like body language,
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gestures, how we look, how we dress, how we carry ourselves.
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It's what people see on the outside. It's what we want to project to others.
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Right. So nonverbal communication is something that,
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And again, I don't mean to use the extreme terms of like everyone or nobody or what have you.
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But we'll say for the purposes of this, that quite a few autistics operate very much on nonverbal.
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And we'll get into the whole concept of verbal versus nonverbal in a few minutes.
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But essentially, an autistic person, and again, just my experience,
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and if I'm wrong, please feel free to let me know your experience.
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I'm happy to hear it. We're happy to hear it, I should say.
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And we would love to hear everyone's experience. But nonverbal communication
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for an autistic is the default.
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Because even if you can't vocalize your feelings, which a lot of autistics do
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struggle with, and again, I use the word a lot, not all, because obviously there's
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a lot that are perfectly fine with it. That's okay too.
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But you exist. And I use the word exist.
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Now, for me, the word exist doesn't necessarily mean what the people might assume
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that it means, which is another topic that maybe we can get into is,
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does that word, what do you mean by that?
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It may not mean what either you think it means, or it may not mean what I think
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it means, but not trying to get too much off topic.
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So, for example, something that I used to do a lot is stare because my mouth had trouble operating.
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So, I tried to speak with my eyes. Now, the thing about the eyes are they don't
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have the necessary air exchange to express words.
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Your mouth is actually quite good at expressing words. That's kind of how it was made.
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But your eyes can express feelings Feelings may be, but those can also be misinterpreted.
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So, when I struggle with communication, when I struggle with vocalizing my feelings, when I struggle with...
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Expressing myself in the way that I want to, then I rely on non-verbal cues.
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My face, as Leah says, does a thing.
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Your face has no poker face. My eyes do a thing, or my posture does a thing, or sometimes I'll sigh,
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or I'll roll my eyes, or I'll act like really, like you can kind of sort of look at me.
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I mean, you can't because this is an audio, this is no video component to the podcast,
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but you could if you were able to look at me
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and if you know me well you can kind
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of see how i'm feeling and
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the really interesting part about that is sometimes you
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will know how i'm feeling more than i do yes but
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if i can be honest with you that is
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level 101 because those are
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the non-verbal cues that i'm used to as an
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neurotypical person so you will do this thing till this
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day which i've now understood is not you being angry because
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you look angry where you'll stand there and stare at
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me with no look on your face and just look at me and that to me is an indication
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that i meant to do something here i'm supposed to ask you what you want because
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you can't verbalize what it is that you want right now but you used to look
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angry again if you could see most like it's kind of an imposing figure there's
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pictures of me like here and everywhere so i understand
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now that that's my cue to ask you what you want all right so those are basics again.
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Admirable cues but for me that's one of my gms look
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really good at like advanced body language
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with you over yes so the
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kids call moshe abba abba means father in
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hebrew and she will walk into a room where moshe
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is doing nothing that i can see at all and
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he'll be like abba has to pee and you'll be like yeah
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i actually do have to pee and if i
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have no idea what kind of interaction went into them
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understanding each other or i'm sure we'll say the same to
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me but i'm not doing well today to me he looks fine offering
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is gonna you know have an accident later often's gonna fall
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down but whatever and i'll be
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like he looks fine to me so that is one on
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two one on three the language that i don't even have
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a kick up yes so while a
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lot of autistics do struggle with communication to
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certain extents and there are some commonalities like difficulty with social
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cues and and and difficulty with expressing ideas and sometimes difficulty with
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talking where we excel and again i say we not not to indicate that it's a universalist
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thing but but where we tend to excel, we'll say, is on the non-verb.
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Because one autistic can often look at another autistic and they just get a feeling about them.
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And it could be something very minor, like...
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Their face is doing the thing, as Leigh would say. Or they're just,
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the words that they used, or the actions that they engaged in,
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or just their demeanor, or they're stimming a little bit more than normal,
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or stimming a little bit less than normal.
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Or if you have a particular stim, and again, I'm using the word stimming,
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I haven't defined it, and we will.
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But for now, we're just going to assume that it has something to do with autistics.
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And if you know what it means, then fantastic.
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And if you don't, then we'll definitely define it. But if you are behaving in
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a quote unquote autistic way, and again, this will actually come up not as an
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offense because it's meant with the most love in our hearts.
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But Leah will come to me and say, Avram's acting really autistic today.
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Can you figure out what's wrong?
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And again, I know what she means. And if I said, Leah, I'm sorry if I'm a bit
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off, I'm feeling extra autistic today.
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She'll know what i mean by that she'll go oh yeah yeah you
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know i see it i see it and that that
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comes with with exposure and experience and again it is not meant to be offensive
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and if you feel that that's offensive then please let me know why because i'd
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honestly i'd like to hear other people's experiences because as the podcast
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interest is i'm one autistic and actually just
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fanatically define stimming for patients. Okay, we're going to go right into it. It's really quick.
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We're not going to linger on it. But stimming is essentially a sensory-seeking behavior.
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Everybody has them, including your typical people, where you like to chew gum
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or you would like to play with something with your fingers.
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Autistics do it more, and they have more of a need to do it.
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Rather than something they like
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to do, they need it to regulate their interaction with the outside world.
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And that's all I'm going to say for now. Okay.
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So, back into nonverbal body language, it really comes down to the ability to
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be able to carry yourself in such a way that people should,
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in your own mind, which is a whole other topic, be able to look at you and based
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on their knowledge of you, know what you need without you vocalizing it.
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And that is that in an ideal situation that would go part and parcel with the
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verbal communication, because as you know, the majority of communication is
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nonverbal, but the words do matter,
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obviously, because if you just walk into a room and stare at somebody,
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they're not automatically going to know exactly what you need,
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or the urgency that you need it, or anything like that.
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But it's definitely a thing that that autistic people struggle with that i've
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experienced and again not universal but it's it's my own experience and my own
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journey that is that is work that is work to get to know anybody really if you just look at them and.
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Figure out what they need, but that's any relationship I get.
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I just want to say for the record, without mentioning names,
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that one of my first exposures to what, I don't know, for lack of a better word, a mainstream autistic,
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because, you know, there's some of us that look behind the curtains and some
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of them that are more in the spotlight, but there's a particular,
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we'll call them a somewhat famous autistic
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that has some exposure and has been
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involved in certain projects and what they
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indicated which to me at one
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point seemed like the height of autistic understanding is that their partner
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would be able to look at them and based entirely on their non-verbal body language
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say okay they're done for the day we're going to go now and and lay and i have
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had many discussions about that very concept and whether
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or not it's even healthy to feel that you need to manage an autistic in,
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like, we'll call it the real world. Like another adult.
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Your child is different, but another adult. Right.
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So we're approaching about a half an hour into the podcast.
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So I think what we'll do, we'll call this the halfway point,
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perhaps, is we'll move on to the next topic.
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This isn't the one. One, you're going to have to keep it, I think,
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a little bit quick if we want to keep this to a reasonable length.
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What we're going to be talking about is.
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The terms non-verbal, non-speaking, and minimally verbal, and what they have
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to do with the levels of autism that can be diagnosed via the ADOS and the DSM-5. Right.
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So this is one of those topics that we inserted into this second episode because
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it's one of those things that I briefly touched on in the first episode.
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But it's an opportunity for me to essentially advocate for my community,
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if they are indeed my community.
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And that is the fact, and I'll say it again, because I did say it in the first
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episode, but I really dislike the term non-verbal or its newer incarnations
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like minimally verbal or non-speaking.
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And that's not to say that there are autistics that do struggle with formulating words,
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because if autism can be identified by one common trait, almost universally,
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but I'm almost prepared to say universally,
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it's development delays. lays.
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If someone ever asks you what autism is, you'll get a laundry list of different things.
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But the universal underlying factor is it is a developmental disability.
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It is a disability. Speaking of which, I did a lot of research on this,
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and we're going to post some interesting links if you want to read more about it yourself. Of course.
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So my experience with the autistic community, even before I was diagnosed as
441
00:31:07.705 --> 00:31:10.785
an adult, was mostly with children.
442
00:31:11.145 --> 00:31:19.345
Because unfortunately, the majority of autistics that are diagnosed are diagnosed
443
00:31:19.345 --> 00:31:23.125
as children, which is actually not unfortunate. It's actually very fortunate.
444
00:31:23.405 --> 00:31:26.205
But where it becomes unfortunate is that a lot of.
445
00:31:27.247 --> 00:31:31.127
A lot of autistics who weren't diagnosed as children struggle to be diagnosed
446
00:31:31.127 --> 00:31:33.707
as adults, and that is in itself another topic.
447
00:31:33.947 --> 00:31:41.827
But what I encountered is a wide variety of people who have autism or were diagnosed with autism.
448
00:31:42.787 --> 00:31:46.107
And it seems to me, especially in my own experience,
449
00:31:46.187 --> 00:31:52.547
but also just by going through the autism forums on Facebook and other websites
450
00:31:52.547 --> 00:31:57.747
and reading what the parents are writing, that an awful lot of autistics nowadays
451
00:31:57.747 --> 00:31:59.347
are non-verbal, apparent.
452
00:31:59.947 --> 00:32:02.287
And to me, that struck me as strange.
453
00:32:03.427 --> 00:32:09.827
Because one particular trait that seems to be, if you believe that these Facebook
454
00:32:09.827 --> 00:32:15.387
groups are a sample, which they're absolutely not, it just seems like an awful
455
00:32:15.387 --> 00:32:16.667
lot of children are non-verbal.
456
00:32:16.787 --> 00:32:20.367
So I delved into it, and I looked into it, and I met a lot of autistics.
457
00:32:20.367 --> 00:32:25.547
And I met an autistic many years ago when I was in my 20s.
458
00:32:25.807 --> 00:32:29.287
And he was, according to his parents, nonverbal.
459
00:32:29.507 --> 00:32:35.167
And their assessment of nonverbal was the fact that when he expressed himself,
460
00:32:35.427 --> 00:32:37.287
he expressed himself in terms of video games.
461
00:32:37.907 --> 00:32:44.047
His hyper-focus was video games. So when he wanted to leave a situation, he would say, game over.
462
00:32:44.567 --> 00:32:47.427
When he was feeling very happy, he would say, power up.
463
00:32:47.947 --> 00:32:52.147
And they were words. Those are actual words in English.
464
00:32:52.427 --> 00:32:57.867
But the mom says, I'm sorry. He's nonverbal, and we don't always understand what he's trying to say.
465
00:32:58.427 --> 00:33:02.127
So I was very young, and I was very naive, and I was very shy.
466
00:33:02.347 --> 00:33:05.167
But what I was thinking was, well, are you listening to him?
467
00:33:05.627 --> 00:33:08.487
Because I spent time with him. He was, I don't know, he must've been like eight
468
00:33:08.487 --> 00:33:10.127
or nine years old. And I was.
469
00:33:11.340 --> 00:33:13.920
I don't just hang around with, with, with autistic children.
470
00:33:14.040 --> 00:33:17.240
I was this, the roommate of, of this person.
471
00:33:17.280 --> 00:33:19.700
No, I was, I was a roommate of this person's friend.
472
00:33:19.940 --> 00:33:23.440
And the friend was coming over for coffee with my roommate one day and they
473
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:27.560
brought their son and I'm a very friendly guy. So I was like, hi, how are you doing?
474
00:33:27.980 --> 00:33:30.540
And she said, oh, he, he's nonverbal. I'm sorry.
475
00:33:31.080 --> 00:33:34.880
And I said, he can't talk. He goes, no, he can't talk.
476
00:33:35.000 --> 00:33:38.520
And then he started talking to me and it was mostly about video games.
477
00:33:38.580 --> 00:33:43.400
And I'm like, he's, he's talking though. What people consider language is a
478
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:46.400
very interesting topic, which we can make a whole episode on as well.
479
00:33:46.520 --> 00:33:49.300
So to summarize, and again, this is a very big deal for me.
480
00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:54.660
What I've experienced is essentially when you say someone is nonverbal,
481
00:33:54.680 --> 00:34:00.080
and again, acknowledging that nonverbal is a very sensitive topic for a lot
482
00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:03.780
of parents, especially who struggle to talk to their children.
483
00:34:04.180 --> 00:34:07.820
And a lot of these parents have very difficult times with it.
484
00:34:07.860 --> 00:34:10.480
I'm an neurotypical parent, and I have no patience for that.
485
00:34:10.640 --> 00:34:18.280
And that's okay, too. So my advice to these parents are your child,
486
00:34:18.580 --> 00:34:21.300
unless they're mute, which I haven't encountered,
487
00:34:21.640 --> 00:34:26.440
whether your child is talking in terms of video games, whether your child is
488
00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:30.600
just using one or two words, whether your child is just making sounds,
489
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:35.500
whether or not you put them in speech therapy or occupational therapy or,
490
00:34:35.580 --> 00:34:38.940
you know, you know khas v'sholam aba to
491
00:34:38.940 --> 00:34:42.800
try and provoke a a language
492
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:45.880
development at some point they're not non-verbal
493
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:49.620
if they sit in a corner and don't make a sound they're non-verbal but most of
494
00:34:49.620 --> 00:34:55.180
the time they are verbal or they talk in the sense that they have a language
495
00:34:55.180 --> 00:34:59.740
that they understand yeah i need to inspire how i feel about this go ahead so
496
00:34:59.740 --> 00:35:05.420
there are parents who learn their baby's fries rise to know what they want.
497
00:35:05.480 --> 00:35:08.140
This crime means they're dirty. This crime means they want to be this way.
498
00:35:09.072 --> 00:35:11.952
So that's a means of communication. That's not a recognized language.
499
00:35:12.212 --> 00:35:17.612
There are parents who will teach baby's sign language to reduce frustration
500
00:35:17.612 --> 00:35:21.132
on the baby's part before their mouth parts can actually make words.
501
00:35:21.632 --> 00:35:24.552
When you're dealing with an autistic, just because they're older,
502
00:35:24.832 --> 00:35:29.312
it is the same issue. Their mouth parts are having trouble making words.
503
00:35:29.672 --> 00:35:35.172
But if you can learn what a newborn baby's crying means, if you can teach a
504
00:35:35.172 --> 00:35:38.472
baby sign language so that they're less frustrated and cry less.
505
00:35:39.072 --> 00:35:43.852
Then why on earth can't you learn what your child's noises, sounds.
506
00:35:45.232 --> 00:35:49.452
Flackering, body language, any combination of those things mean?
507
00:35:50.212 --> 00:35:54.952
Exactly. And what I encountered, and it actually does make me very frustrated,
508
00:35:55.032 --> 00:35:59.432
because a lot of these nonverbal parents, parents of nonverbal autistics,
509
00:35:59.652 --> 00:36:02.932
the kids are like two or three or four or one and a half.
510
00:36:03.692 --> 00:36:08.732
And maybe they only recently got a diagnosis, And maybe they're still working
511
00:36:08.732 --> 00:36:14.272
on trying to understand the kid, either through speech therapy or through just learning their cues.
512
00:36:14.612 --> 00:36:18.012
But then you have these parents. And again, they're 25.
513
00:36:18.292 --> 00:36:21.952
They're like, I'm sorry. They're like, Sam is 25 and nonverbal.
514
00:36:21.972 --> 00:36:23.092
That's not, there's no excuse.
515
00:36:23.292 --> 00:36:26.872
I have a 19 year old son. I read this. I forget which form I was in.
516
00:36:26.912 --> 00:36:28.352
I read this, this, this post.
517
00:36:28.832 --> 00:36:32.252
But this mom did. And she was reaching out to the, to the community.
518
00:36:32.252 --> 00:36:38.072
And she wrote, my 19-year-old son always screams when he's in the back of the
519
00:36:38.072 --> 00:36:39.812
car, and I don't know what to do.
520
00:36:40.132 --> 00:36:50.212
So I responded to her quite innocently as, well, what's happening?
521
00:36:50.812 --> 00:36:54.512
Why is he screaming? Again, why is he screaming?
522
00:36:54.592 --> 00:36:57.592
Why is he making the noise that you want him to stop?
523
00:36:57.592 --> 00:37:00.672
And she said i don't know
524
00:37:00.672 --> 00:37:03.812
he's non-verbal and my thought was you
525
00:37:03.812 --> 00:37:07.332
have been this child or this this this autistic's
526
00:37:07.332 --> 00:37:13.152
mother for 19 years and you still don't understand what they're trying to tell
527
00:37:13.152 --> 00:37:17.452
you and this is another thing that maybe people don't know about about autistics
528
00:37:17.452 --> 00:37:20.952
even if they can't make words with their mouth and that does happen to you sometimes
529
00:37:20.952 --> 00:37:25.172
when you're very stressed and also you can ask them questions i will be like
530
00:37:25.172 --> 00:37:27.132
avram are you upset right now and he'll nod.
531
00:37:28.004 --> 00:37:30.664
So I'm pretty sure if she looked in the back of the car and said,
532
00:37:30.784 --> 00:37:35.664
are you screaming because insert word here, and she did that enough,
533
00:37:35.924 --> 00:37:38.224
he would be able to communicate that to her.
534
00:37:38.784 --> 00:37:42.504
And my first question would be, are you screaming because it's a really exciting
535
00:37:42.504 --> 00:37:45.044
sensation and you're really happy? Because that's what I would assume.
536
00:37:45.524 --> 00:37:49.164
Expression in autistics doesn't always necessarily match the way that they look
537
00:37:49.164 --> 00:37:52.204
or sound. An autistic can appear to be very upset.
538
00:37:52.344 --> 00:37:55.724
They're actually very happy. happy sometimes Avram will
539
00:37:55.724 --> 00:37:58.664
squeal and scream and I still have to stop and
540
00:37:58.664 --> 00:38:01.584
go is he crying or is it a happy sound it's hard
541
00:38:01.584 --> 00:38:04.344
to tell sometimes but even even with you a grown
542
00:38:04.344 --> 00:38:07.564
man sometimes you get so upset you're sitting on the couch and I'm like Masha
543
00:38:07.564 --> 00:38:12.624
are you upset and you'll nod because your mouth isn't making words at that time
544
00:38:12.624 --> 00:38:17.284
and that has to be okay yeah and so it's very talk to me about why you're upset
545
00:38:17.284 --> 00:38:20.964
and you'll not you know you'll shake your head and say okay well I'm I'm going
546
00:38:20.964 --> 00:38:22.824
to give you a log and then we'll talk about it. Okay.
547
00:38:23.404 --> 00:38:26.144
Grown up. 43 year old. Yes.
548
00:38:27.024 --> 00:38:37.084
So the whole concept of nonverbal is frustrating for me because by the logic of some of these people,
549
00:38:37.204 --> 00:38:43.924
a mother will give birth to their baby and then immediately post on a forum.
550
00:38:44.084 --> 00:38:47.624
My infant is nonverbal. I don't know what to do. I'm sorry.
551
00:38:48.264 --> 00:38:53.884
I don't mean to. I just gave birth to a nonverbal. I don't know how to relate to them.
552
00:38:54.704 --> 00:38:57.624
And I've had babies. You had babies.
553
00:38:57.824 --> 00:39:02.624
I mean, I haven't actually physically had babies, but I cared for babies from
554
00:39:02.624 --> 00:39:06.624
the moment that they were born until the present day or most recently.
555
00:39:07.604 --> 00:39:09.824
And I looked at this newborn.
556
00:39:10.891 --> 00:39:14.511
And I thought a lot of things, but I never for one minute thought,
557
00:39:14.691 --> 00:39:16.571
oh, my goodness, my baby is nonverbal.
558
00:39:17.831 --> 00:39:25.151
Because it's expected that you're not going to necessarily understand what your baby wants.
559
00:39:25.471 --> 00:39:28.731
And you could say, and you could very rightly say, Moshe, Leah,
560
00:39:28.971 --> 00:39:31.231
we're not talking about a baby here.
561
00:39:31.291 --> 00:39:33.571
We're talking about a two-year-old, a three-year-old, a five-year-old,
562
00:39:33.571 --> 00:39:35.311
a 10-year-old, a 12-year-old, a 19-year-old.
563
00:39:35.311 --> 00:39:38.731
And and and i would respond to you okay a
564
00:39:38.731 --> 00:39:41.871
new mother who has never had children before and is
565
00:39:41.871 --> 00:39:44.511
holding this new baby doesn't go oh my
566
00:39:44.511 --> 00:39:47.551
gosh my baby is non-verbal but maybe in
567
00:39:47.551 --> 00:39:50.891
a few months or a couple of years you could
568
00:39:50.891 --> 00:39:53.711
go up though he's hungry that's you see what he's doing
569
00:39:53.711 --> 00:39:56.531
that that means he's hungry or no he has to go to the bathroom because he's
570
00:39:56.531 --> 00:39:59.191
doing the thing with his whatever but you've been
571
00:39:59.191 --> 00:40:02.191
this child's parent and you're going my child's non-verbal
572
00:40:02.191 --> 00:40:05.971
i don't know know what to do okay so you know
573
00:40:05.971 --> 00:40:09.851
what what are you doing to understand him right
574
00:40:09.851 --> 00:40:13.931
but that's also an amazing thread you know all these miraculous stories where
575
00:40:13.931 --> 00:40:19.711
autistics are non-verbal and all of a sudden 10 11 or 12 years old because you
576
00:40:19.711 --> 00:40:22.551
know their parents gave them some sort of fiber supplement or whatever that
577
00:40:22.551 --> 00:40:28.491
they started talking the reality is one of the number one signs or
578
00:40:28.571 --> 00:40:31.151
symptoms of autism is developmental delay.
579
00:40:31.311 --> 00:40:36.231
Right. That might have just been when they were able to start talking anyway. Exactly.
580
00:40:37.169 --> 00:40:39.909
And we're not going to get into the science of it because the science is boring
581
00:40:39.909 --> 00:40:42.449
for me. Not for Leah. Leah loves the science.
582
00:40:42.849 --> 00:40:50.069
But when you get an autism diagnosis, it's not just a piece of paper that says autism positive.
583
00:40:51.189 --> 00:40:55.489
There's like a whole series of things. Some might call it a spectrum.
584
00:40:55.849 --> 00:41:00.329
But one of the things that they look at is all the different areas.
585
00:41:00.649 --> 00:41:04.989
He's here on this. He's there on this. He's delayed in this. He's fine on this.
586
00:41:05.069 --> 00:41:08.309
He's normal and walking. talking but in talking he's there and
587
00:41:08.309 --> 00:41:11.409
we're going to get into it because it's actually a really fascinating topic as
588
00:41:11.409 --> 00:41:14.469
you wouldn't even care part of autumn's diagnosis was
589
00:41:14.469 --> 00:41:17.289
they actually manipulated his joints and they're like yeah yeah he's
590
00:41:17.289 --> 00:41:22.009
loose and i went what does that mean apparently that's a thing it is we went
591
00:41:22.009 --> 00:41:25.589
to a neurologist for you the other day and what did she do she said get up and
592
00:41:25.589 --> 00:41:30.009
walk for me back and forth he took two steps she went yeah sit back down i i
593
00:41:30.009 --> 00:41:34.129
was told the other day that i had an autistic walk i'd never before told i had
594
00:41:34.129 --> 00:41:36.969
an autistic walk but now Now I know what an autistic walk is.
595
00:41:37.049 --> 00:41:39.309
I've always known what it was. I just never knew it was an autistic walk.
596
00:41:39.709 --> 00:41:44.649
But the delay, a lot of people look at delays and they think that delays are universal.
597
00:41:45.189 --> 00:41:49.109
And that is a problem. Because if you have a baby, getting back to the concept
598
00:41:49.109 --> 00:41:54.549
of an infant, if you have a baby, the pediatrician or the doctor or whatever,
599
00:41:54.749 --> 00:41:57.789
pardon me, will hand you like a chart.
600
00:41:57.829 --> 00:42:00.549
You can get the chart online that says by this age, they should be doing this.
601
00:42:00.629 --> 00:42:04.189
By this age, they should be doing that. By this age, they should weigh this.
602
00:42:04.189 --> 00:42:07.229
By this age, they should be meeting this milestone.
603
00:42:07.809 --> 00:42:12.649
And a lot of the time, they will meet these milestones, and then they'll still
604
00:42:12.649 --> 00:42:14.929
be autistic. And a lot of times, they won't.
605
00:42:15.209 --> 00:42:18.689
And they won't be autistic. And sometimes they won't, and then they are.
606
00:42:18.869 --> 00:42:20.749
And it becomes very varied.
607
00:42:21.149 --> 00:42:26.909
But you'll end up talking to these parents, and they'll go, he seems so normal. I don't understand.
608
00:42:27.269 --> 00:42:31.689
So, other hit a lot of the milestones that seem to matter to society in general.
609
00:42:31.829 --> 00:42:33.709
And that was why they had a big problem.
610
00:42:34.981 --> 00:42:39.161
Explaining to everyone, including, you know, professionals that we think there's
611
00:42:39.161 --> 00:42:44.141
something wrong here, but we are definitely getting off the topic of communication at this point.
612
00:42:44.161 --> 00:42:46.761
Now we're talking about diagnostic, but we should rein it back in.
613
00:42:46.821 --> 00:42:49.141
Right. So let's talk about non-speaking.
614
00:42:49.741 --> 00:42:54.041
Right. How do you feel about non-speaking? So the definition I found for non-speaking,
615
00:42:54.181 --> 00:42:57.421
and again, you can definitely write it and correct us if we're wrong,
616
00:42:57.521 --> 00:43:01.961
is defined as somebody who has a vocabulary of 30 words or less that they use.
617
00:43:02.081 --> 00:43:08.761
Right. Like, and that goes along with a level three diagnosis of autism,
618
00:43:08.961 --> 00:43:11.421
which we can discuss what that is. I'm con three.
619
00:43:11.821 --> 00:43:15.341
You got a level three autistic in your house. Watch it. Yes.
620
00:43:15.721 --> 00:43:21.661
So I had the bird. Anyway, my opinion for that is, is really my,
621
00:43:21.821 --> 00:43:28.701
my, my opinion of the concept of nonverbal or non-speaking because by whose standards?
622
00:43:29.361 --> 00:43:32.261
Standards maybe maybe somebody just
623
00:43:32.261 --> 00:43:34.961
likes to say a few things he knows
624
00:43:34.961 --> 00:43:39.781
a lot of words he just chooses not to use most of them the average person i
625
00:43:39.781 --> 00:43:44.061
don't actually know because i never did the research they know x number of words
626
00:43:44.061 --> 00:43:48.921
hundreds and hundreds of words but maybe they only use a few words and they're
627
00:43:48.921 --> 00:43:53.321
they're labeled as autistic because of that but by whose standards are they
628
00:43:53.361 --> 00:43:57.621
minimally, you know, do they have that minimal whatever?
629
00:43:57.941 --> 00:44:01.101
But it's funny because that's actually a tactic to teach someone a new language
630
00:44:01.101 --> 00:44:05.821
is you provide them with the top, you know, 60 or 100 words that occur over
631
00:44:05.821 --> 00:44:07.921
and over and over in that language and they memorize them.
632
00:44:08.141 --> 00:44:12.681
Right. So if you're effectively communicating with 30 words, what's the difference?
633
00:44:13.641 --> 00:44:18.681
Exactly. And it really also depends. And this is why we went into diagnostics,
634
00:44:18.701 --> 00:44:22.741
maybe a little bit too in depth, but it's going to be a topic eventually. So we'll touch on it now.
635
00:44:23.567 --> 00:44:31.967
That when you have a child like me, my metrics were that I was advanced in comprehension,
636
00:44:32.027 --> 00:44:35.327
in speaking, and in reading.
637
00:44:35.427 --> 00:44:38.507
But I was very delayed in mobility.
638
00:44:38.747 --> 00:44:44.367
I still struggle sometimes to walk, and I walked as a baby very late.
639
00:44:44.767 --> 00:44:48.987
So, when I was using big words, like I said in the the first,
640
00:44:49.007 --> 00:44:53.367
like, filthy, then you go, oh, wow, he's really smart.
641
00:44:53.707 --> 00:44:58.987
No, I mean, he is, because I'm very smart. But I was very advanced in that.
642
00:44:59.087 --> 00:45:00.567
And I like using big words.
643
00:45:00.907 --> 00:45:06.227
Somebody might not use the word filthy. They might use very minimal words, dirty.
644
00:45:06.647 --> 00:45:11.387
And that doesn't necessarily mean that they are minimally, you know, talking.
645
00:45:11.547 --> 00:45:15.947
It just could mean that they are able to summarize their thoughts That's in fewer words.
646
00:45:16.187 --> 00:45:18.967
Again, that brings us back to the original, you know what I mean?
647
00:45:19.007 --> 00:45:23.247
That the messenger is saying the message and the person is receiving it.
648
00:45:23.327 --> 00:45:26.567
So if you're receiving the message with the word filthy or the word dirty,
649
00:45:26.627 --> 00:45:28.327
does it really matter? Exactly.
650
00:45:28.967 --> 00:45:35.407
I tend to be a walking thesaurus sometimes. But just because you use basic words
651
00:45:35.407 --> 00:45:41.007
to express yourself, it doesn't mean that your ability to talk is minimum.
652
00:45:41.007 --> 00:45:43.787
Them like if i knew 30 recipes wouldn't that be enough to
653
00:45:43.787 --> 00:45:46.787
feed us for the rest of eternity right but yes but
654
00:45:46.787 --> 00:45:49.807
what i would i then look at you and go well her her cooking ability
655
00:45:49.807 --> 00:45:52.627
is very minimal she only does 30 things with with
656
00:45:52.627 --> 00:45:57.707
like exactly no she's an amazing cook she just knows that those 30 things are
657
00:45:57.707 --> 00:46:01.627
are enough to get by it so why would you need to know everything i could know
658
00:46:01.627 --> 00:46:06.727
thousands of different words does it really matter if i'm making my my point
659
00:46:06.727 --> 00:46:10.267
really right so So yeah, that kind of irks me that way.
660
00:46:10.487 --> 00:46:15.907
I think that the whole level three autistic and ADOS thing is more of a biomostics discussion.
661
00:46:16.107 --> 00:46:19.347
So let's leave it for another episode, I think. Sure.
662
00:46:19.427 --> 00:46:23.247
Do we want to make any last points about this whole minimally verbal,
663
00:46:23.587 --> 00:46:26.067
nonverbal, verbal situation?
664
00:46:27.267 --> 00:46:33.267
I think if I can just make one final point and then move on to the final point,
665
00:46:33.507 --> 00:46:40.447
the concept concept of nonverbal, which, as I mentioned, is a very sensitive
666
00:46:40.447 --> 00:46:43.987
subject for a lot of parents of autistic children.
667
00:46:44.227 --> 00:46:48.807
And believe you me, Leigh and I are going to be devoting probably multiple episodes
668
00:46:48.807 --> 00:46:51.707
just to autistic children.
669
00:46:52.247 --> 00:46:58.887
So, for right now, we're focusing more or less on our relationship as a married
670
00:46:58.887 --> 00:47:02.747
couple and on autistic adults, because I am an autistic adult.
671
00:47:02.967 --> 00:47:07.467
And if we have the opportunity to talk to Avram at some point,
672
00:47:07.527 --> 00:47:10.407
which I hope we will, then you can get that perspective.
673
00:47:10.647 --> 00:47:13.127
He told us he will. Great. Because.
674
00:47:14.439 --> 00:47:17.799
The point that I'm trying to make, and so we can move on to the next topic,
675
00:47:17.919 --> 00:47:24.679
is the idea of nonverbal is very cult, especially when you're very young.
676
00:47:24.879 --> 00:47:29.439
Because even though autistics are delayed in many ways, when they're already
677
00:47:29.439 --> 00:47:33.579
so small and they're relatively fresh to the world, we'll say,
678
00:47:33.699 --> 00:47:36.879
their own ability is going to be limited.
679
00:47:36.959 --> 00:47:43.079
And for a new mom or new dad or a new parent, we'll say, to look at this child
680
00:47:43.079 --> 00:47:45.239
who is now three, four, five, six,
681
00:47:45.379 --> 00:47:52.079
seven, eight, nine, 10 years old, who really can only use a few words or no words at all.
682
00:47:53.019 --> 00:47:57.479
It's very frustrating. And when we talk about our own feelings about it,
683
00:47:57.519 --> 00:48:03.179
it's not to diminish your own feelings of how you feel about it.
684
00:48:03.239 --> 00:48:06.619
And it's not to say that you're wrong, or you're doing a bad job,
685
00:48:06.759 --> 00:48:08.179
or you're not doing the best you can.
686
00:48:08.279 --> 00:48:11.559
It's simply to express us in an overall sense
687
00:48:11.559 --> 00:48:14.999
are our feelings about how everybody
688
00:48:14.999 --> 00:48:18.599
with almost very few exceptions is
689
00:48:18.599 --> 00:48:22.219
able to communicate somehow so saying
690
00:48:22.219 --> 00:48:25.919
that someone is non-verbal reads like
691
00:48:25.919 --> 00:48:28.839
they're non-communicative it's one of those labels that's
692
00:48:28.839 --> 00:48:32.439
maybe more harmful than you know so maybe a
693
00:48:32.439 --> 00:48:36.039
better word is a better term
694
00:48:36.039 --> 00:48:39.399
we'll say than non-verbal or minimally verbal or
695
00:48:39.399 --> 00:48:44.519
non-speaking or non-talking or whatever is differently communicative it's a
696
00:48:44.519 --> 00:48:49.779
long mouthful of a word but it's much more expressive of what's going on than
697
00:48:49.779 --> 00:48:54.119
just saying he's non-verbal anyway right actually this brings to me another
698
00:48:54.119 --> 00:48:58.159
topic within the subtopic but we have to discuss it very quickly what about
699
00:48:58.159 --> 00:48:59.339
going Going non-verbal.
700
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:03.199
Do you know what I mean about going non-verbal? So, for example,
701
00:49:03.299 --> 00:49:07.799
we had a friend who was very verbal, if you want to say it that way.
702
00:49:07.919 --> 00:49:13.159
When he gets sick, he ceases to speak for maybe a week at a time.
703
00:49:13.579 --> 00:49:17.519
Yes. That is a thing that seems to happen to a lot of autistics.
704
00:49:18.019 --> 00:49:20.859
The question is, do we be afraid of it? Is it permanent?
705
00:49:23.179 --> 00:49:26.319
What's going on there? so unfortunately we
706
00:49:26.319 --> 00:49:34.799
have very little time to to to discuss you know non non topics related to the
707
00:49:34.799 --> 00:49:39.279
idea of communication and this is definitely related to communication but i
708
00:49:39.279 --> 00:49:43.179
have a lot of opinions on this which which i want to share in a future episode
709
00:49:43.179 --> 00:49:45.439
but for now what i will say is,
710
00:49:46.811 --> 00:49:53.111
Being autistic is a constant ordering of thoughts and feelings and expressions
711
00:49:53.111 --> 00:49:55.551
and experiences and stimulation.
712
00:49:56.111 --> 00:50:04.051
And a lot of that is hard work. And when you are ill or when you are upset or
713
00:50:04.051 --> 00:50:13.171
when you are in some way not in control of all of the inner mechanics of what's going on in you,
714
00:50:13.311 --> 00:50:15.731
a lot of things kind of let go.
715
00:50:15.731 --> 00:50:18.511
And if you think of an autistic like a
716
00:50:18.511 --> 00:50:21.771
person standing in a field holding a bunch of balloons and one
717
00:50:21.771 --> 00:50:24.891
balloon says talking one balloon says cleaning and
718
00:50:24.891 --> 00:50:28.911
one balloon says you know learning then you
719
00:50:28.911 --> 00:50:31.871
can't always hold all those balloons sometimes the talking balloon
720
00:50:31.871 --> 00:50:34.611
floats away and until you
721
00:50:34.611 --> 00:50:37.371
can get it back you're trying so hard to
722
00:50:37.371 --> 00:50:40.171
hold on to the rest of the balloons that you lose one of the other ones and
723
00:50:40.171 --> 00:50:43.051
it's it's called i believe regression and it's
724
00:50:43.051 --> 00:50:46.071
a lot of the time it's completely temporary but it does happen
725
00:50:46.071 --> 00:50:49.851
and it's simply a result of the
726
00:50:49.851 --> 00:50:52.691
functionality of the neurodivergent or the autistic
727
00:50:52.691 --> 00:50:55.851
being reduced because of
728
00:50:55.851 --> 00:51:00.451
other external factors because i have heard the fear that it's permanent um
729
00:51:00.451 --> 00:51:04.631
from my own mother actually she would be concerned that if avram wasn't being
730
00:51:04.631 --> 00:51:08.351
himself she would say oh my goodness i hope he starts to talk again and i would
731
00:51:08.351 --> 00:51:12.611
say with all confidence because i know our son that absolutely he will but it
732
00:51:12.611 --> 00:51:13.871
is a concern so So that's something.
733
00:51:14.091 --> 00:51:16.551
Again, right into us. Tell us if it's a concern for you.
734
00:51:16.651 --> 00:51:20.071
We can bring it up in a future episode. And it has to do a lot of the time as
735
00:51:20.071 --> 00:51:21.371
well with different kinds of traumas.
736
00:51:21.551 --> 00:51:25.251
But we can definitely get into it in a later episode, but we have to move on.
737
00:51:25.271 --> 00:51:28.891
But for now, please tell us your experiences. And if you have any experience
738
00:51:28.891 --> 00:51:32.791
with neurodivergence and autistics becoming non-verbal activity.
739
00:51:33.471 --> 00:51:36.991
Anyway. All right. So now this is one actually for the neurotypicals more,
740
00:51:37.131 --> 00:51:42.011
because we're going to discuss communication styles. And these are for everyone.
741
00:51:42.922 --> 00:51:47.202
We're going to see where the pitfalls could be in between two differently functional people.
742
00:51:47.622 --> 00:51:50.622
But there are four main communication status. We're going to put up a really
743
00:51:50.622 --> 00:51:52.602
good graphic that's found actually about that.
744
00:51:52.802 --> 00:51:56.302
The first is passive. So passive means that you don't speak up.
745
00:51:56.342 --> 00:51:59.762
You're very shy. You're afraid of people judging you. You keep all of your feelings.
746
00:52:00.322 --> 00:52:04.522
And that absolutely leads to nobody knowing you or knowing what you want ever.
747
00:52:05.122 --> 00:52:10.202
Then you have aggressive. So you bring yourself across with anger and judgment,
748
00:52:10.442 --> 00:52:16.502
inflexibility. and that can cause a very hostile environment in terms of your
749
00:52:16.502 --> 00:52:17.942
communication with other people.
750
00:52:18.302 --> 00:52:20.382
Then there's the passive-aggressive.
751
00:52:20.962 --> 00:52:24.962
You hold on to those negative feelings, but you don't necessarily verbalize
752
00:52:24.962 --> 00:52:30.622
them, but it will affect or your emotions will affect future communication and
753
00:52:30.622 --> 00:52:34.302
that will often lead to confusion and resentment on both parties.
754
00:52:34.702 --> 00:52:37.822
The last is assertive, which seems to be the healthiest one.
755
00:52:38.522 --> 00:52:42.082
It's confident but respectful of the other person's feelings and it opens you
756
00:52:42.082 --> 00:52:43.922
up to honest and healthy conversation.
757
00:52:44.882 --> 00:52:49.042
So in terms of communication styles, I've already identified that I'm assertive.
758
00:52:49.262 --> 00:52:51.562
What do you think your communication style is?
759
00:52:52.922 --> 00:52:57.522
I've often been sort of vacillating between passive and passive-aggressive.
760
00:52:58.649 --> 00:53:04.589
Spurts of aggressive. Assertive is definitely something that I have often struggled with.
761
00:53:05.369 --> 00:53:11.609
And that is a lot to do with my past experiences, which we may or may not get
762
00:53:11.609 --> 00:53:15.689
into in a later episode, because it doesn't necessarily have to do with neurodivergency
763
00:53:15.689 --> 00:53:17.749
or autism, and it's mostly just a personal thing.
764
00:53:18.069 --> 00:53:22.969
But what we can discuss about it is that autistics tend to be,
765
00:53:23.009 --> 00:53:27.009
and again, one autistic, one experience, but they tend to be very suggestible.
766
00:53:27.389 --> 00:53:32.889
And And when you are in a situation where you are suggestible,
767
00:53:32.889 --> 00:53:39.269
like I am, and I'll admit it, then you can sometimes get pigeonholed into a communication style.
768
00:53:40.369 --> 00:53:46.749
Because autistics, and again, just my experience, but autistics often are very,
769
00:53:46.809 --> 00:53:48.889
to use the Freudian term, in-focused.
770
00:53:49.289 --> 00:53:52.569
When they want something, they tell you what they want. When they're uncomfortable,
771
00:53:52.909 --> 00:53:53.729
they say they're uncomfortable.
772
00:53:54.049 --> 00:54:00.669
When they're unhappy, they say they're unhappy. and they express themselves in these overt ways.
773
00:54:00.889 --> 00:54:05.389
The people in my life often called me histrionic or drama queen or whatever,
774
00:54:05.469 --> 00:54:10.229
but they express themselves in these overt ways and they scream and they cry
775
00:54:10.229 --> 00:54:12.169
when they stub their toe or they're very unhappy.
776
00:54:12.349 --> 00:54:18.389
So they descend into this Shakespearean level of melancholy that causes them
777
00:54:18.389 --> 00:54:20.609
to just give up the will to live or whatever.
778
00:54:20.709 --> 00:54:25.589
But the fact is when we experience emotions, they're often very extreme.
779
00:54:25.889 --> 00:54:28.689
And people who are around us that don't necessarily know how to deal with it,
780
00:54:28.729 --> 00:54:30.729
they'll punch them down.
781
00:54:30.889 --> 00:54:35.209
No, just stop acting that way. Stop screaming. Stop acting up.
782
00:54:35.409 --> 00:54:37.969
Stop. Just stop. Just stop. Calm down.
783
00:54:38.229 --> 00:54:43.849
And oftentimes, a lot of autistics will take that to mean not that they should
784
00:54:43.849 --> 00:54:46.289
temper themselves, but that they should just shut down completely.
785
00:54:47.229 --> 00:54:50.269
So my experience, and again, this is harder than the experience,
786
00:54:50.349 --> 00:54:52.609
is that you should approach in the action like that of curiosity.
787
00:54:53.209 --> 00:54:56.729
What happened? What's wrong? wrong, how can we calm this down?
788
00:54:57.989 --> 00:55:01.109
So yes, I actually do have a question for you. So do you think you could be
789
00:55:01.109 --> 00:55:05.909
in a successful relationship with another aggressive communicator or another
790
00:55:05.909 --> 00:55:07.549
passive aggressive communicator?
791
00:55:07.709 --> 00:55:11.429
Or do you think it's necessary to have sort of an open and honest assertive
792
00:55:11.429 --> 00:55:12.669
communicator? Well, the two?
793
00:55:14.304 --> 00:55:18.204
Optimize our understanding of each other, for example? So, autistics,
794
00:55:18.324 --> 00:55:23.184
and again, I use the general term, but my own experience is my own experience.
795
00:55:23.404 --> 00:55:25.664
And again, if your experience is different, let me know.
796
00:55:25.984 --> 00:55:29.704
But autistics in general function better with clear instructions.
797
00:55:30.524 --> 00:55:35.704
One of the things that always really bothered me about being in Israel is that
798
00:55:35.704 --> 00:55:37.644
Israelis are very general.
799
00:55:37.844 --> 00:55:41.544
They'll say it's over there, or it's right there, or it's over here.
800
00:55:41.924 --> 00:55:44.804
And they don't give specifics. They go, where's the bathroom?
801
00:55:45.184 --> 00:55:47.964
They'll go, it's over there. Where? They'll just sort of wave in a general vicinity.
802
00:55:48.324 --> 00:55:52.704
And if a statistic doesn't have clear instructions, they don't necessarily know what to do.
803
00:55:53.344 --> 00:55:57.544
So, being with somebody who doesn't give clear instructions,
804
00:55:57.644 --> 00:56:03.364
or being with someone who gives unclear instructions, like, for example, passive aggressive.
805
00:56:03.364 --> 00:56:09.724
Geez it would be real nice so someone could do the dishes moshe yeah you're right and then walk away.
806
00:56:11.424 --> 00:56:18.124
Or gosh i'm always having to tidy up your mess is passive-aggressive because
807
00:56:18.124 --> 00:56:22.764
it doesn't give clear instructions the person feels that they're being clear
808
00:56:22.764 --> 00:56:27.104
and the really sad thing is sometimes autistics do that too because their version
809
00:56:27.104 --> 00:56:30.484
of communicating doesn't always fit into these these categories.
810
00:56:31.384 --> 00:56:34.384
But that's where I think you will say something, wow, thanks full,
811
00:56:34.464 --> 00:56:37.924
it would be nice if someone did the dishes and I'll say, Moshe,
812
00:56:38.044 --> 00:56:39.764
would you like me to do the dishes?
813
00:56:40.784 --> 00:56:47.464
Right. You could just say so. Right. And that's not meant to be, you know, bad Moshe.
814
00:56:48.084 --> 00:56:51.724
It's meant to help communication, which is the topic that we're in.
815
00:56:52.044 --> 00:56:56.944
And it works with kids and it works with adults. And it really comes down to clear instructions.
816
00:56:57.404 --> 00:56:59.384
What do you want? What do you need?
817
00:56:59.944 --> 00:57:03.704
Tell me what it is that you're looking for. And often that interaction will
818
00:57:03.704 --> 00:57:05.904
end with me throwing you a towel and was doing the dishes.
819
00:57:06.044 --> 00:57:10.204
Exactly. And crisis averted, where some people could fight over that for all night.
820
00:57:11.757 --> 00:57:18.637
So, assertive communication, which is, as Leah said, the key or the most ideal
821
00:57:18.637 --> 00:57:23.317
form of communication is expressing your needs in a way that is…,
822
00:57:23.857 --> 00:57:27.137
Sort of considerate of the other person. That is considerate of the other person, but clear.
823
00:57:27.657 --> 00:57:32.377
Because a lot of the time I've said to Leah, I don't want to come across as mean.
824
00:57:32.797 --> 00:57:34.537
And she'll say, well, do you want
825
00:57:34.537 --> 00:57:40.217
it to be done? Then tell them that you want it to be done and mean it.
826
00:57:40.217 --> 00:57:43.797
Don't just say do the dishes when there's
827
00:57:43.797 --> 00:57:46.677
like one dish in the sink for the sake of doing
828
00:57:46.677 --> 00:57:51.537
it or just aggressive communicators are often bullies almost always bullies
829
00:57:51.537 --> 00:57:55.797
because they don't have any rhyme or reason for their for their emphasis we'll
830
00:57:55.797 --> 00:58:00.797
say they just want it and they want it done now or they need it done now or
831
00:58:00.797 --> 00:58:05.557
they're very expressive but without any grounding someone who unfortunately
832
00:58:05.557 --> 00:58:05.997
Unfortunately, I forgot,
833
00:58:06.157 --> 00:58:10.717
told me a better definition of assertive that I can't actually recall right now.
834
00:58:10.897 --> 00:58:15.857
But what I think that I would like to put out into the podcasting universe is
835
00:58:15.857 --> 00:58:20.157
if you have a really good definition of the different communication styles.
836
00:58:20.577 --> 00:58:25.217
Assertive, passive, passive, aggressive, and aggressive, then let us know.
837
00:58:25.277 --> 00:58:29.957
And in particular, if someone is assertive, what does that mean to you?
838
00:58:30.037 --> 00:58:33.057
What is the difference between aggressive and assertive?
839
00:58:33.177 --> 00:58:35.797
Okay, I can be honest. as being a woman i've been called the b
840
00:58:35.797 --> 00:58:39.117
word more than once right because a woman is
841
00:58:39.117 --> 00:58:41.917
not allowed to be aggressive sort of they can
842
00:58:41.917 --> 00:58:44.677
be assertive because but then they're they're
843
00:58:44.677 --> 00:58:53.057
labeled whatever yeah yeah right so we are coming definitely to the end of the
844
00:58:53.057 --> 00:58:57.437
along talking you probably want to listen to at this point we have more topics
845
00:58:57.437 --> 00:59:00.997
even that we intended to do in this episode i'll just touch on them real quick,
846
00:59:01.097 --> 00:59:02.757
because they're very interesting.
847
00:59:03.017 --> 00:59:05.937
So the double empathy problem, you can Google that and put that up,
848
00:59:05.977 --> 00:59:09.037
but we're going to discuss it and how it leads to misunderstandings.
849
00:59:09.317 --> 00:59:13.777
How long does effective communication take? That's a very personal talk with Moshe and I.
850
00:59:13.917 --> 00:59:16.897
There's no ideal for that. And we're just going to discuss how long effective
851
00:59:16.897 --> 00:59:18.317
communication takes for us.
852
00:59:18.877 --> 00:59:23.437
And eye contact. So why eye contact is difficult for autistics?
853
00:59:23.637 --> 00:59:26.537
Should we insist on eye contact? Is it a thing?
854
00:59:26.897 --> 00:59:32.217
When is eye contact appropriate? And some of the science behind why eye contact is difficult.
855
00:59:33.257 --> 00:59:39.897
Right. So we'll sign off now to avoid making the episode any longer than it needs to be.
856
00:59:40.177 --> 00:59:48.117
But I will say that communication is going to be an ongoing thing for us in terms of topics.
857
00:59:48.157 --> 00:59:51.337
But it's also an ongoing thing for any relationship.
858
00:59:51.357 --> 00:59:56.217
And in particular, even though we're doing episodes or podcasts about communications,
859
00:59:56.537 --> 01:00:00.677
it's still a work in progress for Leigh and I. So if you're having communication issues.
860
01:00:02.224 --> 01:00:06.844
Feel free to let us know, but don't feel down on yourself because it's going
861
01:00:06.844 --> 01:00:09.104
to continue to evolve if you want it to.
862
01:00:09.944 --> 01:00:14.804
Absolutely. So write in, let us know. Even if you want some advice from a couple
863
01:00:14.804 --> 01:00:19.464
of non-professionals, we might even feature your story.
864
01:00:19.904 --> 01:00:24.264
For sure. Might be helpful to people. Also, don't forget on whatever podcasting
865
01:00:24.264 --> 01:00:26.924
app you're using, download, rate, share.
866
01:00:27.164 --> 01:00:30.744
We hope that you really enjoy what we have to offer and we're excited to give you more.
867
01:00:31.984 --> 01:00:34.724
That's our show for today now you know it just
868
01:00:34.724 --> 01:00:41.424
a little bit better so something you may not know about some autistics is that
869
01:00:41.424 --> 01:00:48.704
we often struggle with ending social interactions so Leah all right Moshe i'll take
870
01:00:48.704 --> 01:00:53.584
care of it thank you for listening to now you know one autistic see you next week.
871
01:00:53.680 --> 01:01:01.553
Music.