Now You Know One Autistic! Podcast
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Music.
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Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic. I'm Leah, and I'm boring.
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Welcome to Now You Know One Autistic, a podcast about neurodiversity in couples,
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marriage, meltdowns, and making it all work.
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The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect the experience of one couple and one autistic.
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Nothing that you hear in this podcast should be taken as a medical opinion,
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and unless otherwise stated, no one is an accredited specialist in any of the
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many fields that comprise the autism spectrum.
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But as someone who is on the autism spectrum, I feel that my experiences will
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be very valuable to many of you, whether you're on the spectrum,
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a support person like Leah, or just a curious bystander.
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If you think that you or someone you care about may be autistic,
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consult your family doctor.
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Music.
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Hi misha hi leah how are you i'm good thank you good and so now we're at part
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two of loving spectrum yeah so last week on a very special episode of now you
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know when artistic leah and I shared our origin story in more detail.
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We sort of kind of raised it in our first episode, so you would have an idea of who we were.
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But last episode, I won't say last week, cause you might listen to this episode
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a week after that, you might listen to it right afterwards.
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We're not really sure yet, but last week our origin and a lot of the,
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we'll say details of our near misses and big misses and all the other things
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that happened were revealed.
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So you know a little bit more about what happened and not necessarily always so favorable light.
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And this week, we're going to, as we promised, touch more on the lighter side
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of our past and really get into specifically love and relationships.
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When it comes to autistic people and autistic teenagers and romantic feelings that develop.
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I would like to put a vocal display over here, actually.
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I get the feeling that there will be some adult topics coming forward,
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and maybe we might have some detailed descriptions of some more adult-themed characters.
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Things. So just to be aware of who's listening to this with you,
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it's not necessarily not for children, but younger listeners should probably
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have a trusted adult that they can ask questions to.
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Pretty much. So in the past, we talked a lot about some relatively benign stuff,
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but now we're getting into some more deeper discussions about things like intimacy and sex.
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I mean, puberty, it's on its own as a topic so
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it's it's not like like red and r or whatever but
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it's definitely like a gg13 meaning i guess
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we'll see where it goes and and if you notice a display on it
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that's why so where we
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left off last time was a lot
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of detail maybe too much detail for some of you guys about our relationship
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and how that happened various failures on our part in terms of you know sort
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of actuating the way that we felt about each other and how that sort of dovetailed
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in with how puberty hit both Moshe and I differently.
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And how we responded to it together
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and how each of us sort of- Or lack of response. Lack of response.
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And how we handled it individually. And it made for some difficult listening,
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perhaps, but it wasn't all bad.
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There were a lot of really keen stories, which we're looking forward to sharing.
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So now I would like to talk about teenagers in general, right?
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And what sort of tends to happen when you become a certain age,
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let's say for your typical, right?
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So you become a certain age, everybody knows the story, as I hope you do at
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this point that you've been to school.
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You know, you become a certain age and hormones go through your body and they
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cause you to have changes to your body and to grow up into,
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you know, a man or a woman or some other variety and person,
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which we're not going to touch too much on.
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And that causes a lot of changes in priorities and feelings.
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For a neurotypical, that can absolutely look like a straight line, right?
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So to give you an example of what happened with me, I hit puberty.
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I started to feel more interested in being romantic with other people.
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I started to feel more interested in dating. I started to feel physical,
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let's say, I don't know, can I say sexual?
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Sexual feelings for people. people and for me that
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was a straight line to sort of pursuing person
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right possibly or allowing other people to
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pursue me now what was difficult for me personally was i'm a girl i'm a girl
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and in montreal you go to high school in grade seven there's no middle school
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so right about the time when my body began to change and i started to get curves
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and i started to be really attractive active,
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I was sort of pulled out of my elementary school environment and thrown into
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school with, let's be honest,
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grown men who were graduating high school.
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And that caused some issues for me, as I had spoken about earlier,
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where boys would aggressively pursue me.
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And that was the message that I got, that boys aggressively pursue you,
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and it's your job to sort of fend them off or decide that you want to be with
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them and that's how life goes.
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So how did that look for you?
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So my line was, was somewhat less straight.
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And it really, it had to do with a,
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like I mentioned last week, that there seems to be a bit of a barrier sometimes
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when it comes to neurovergence and being aware of the feelings.
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Of course, obviously, you're not always going to know, but you can at least suspect.
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But with an autistic person who oftentimes will be developmentally delayed in
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a variety of ways, it's not to
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say that it's a universal thing or it's specifically targeted in one area.
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But speaking from my experience, as one autistic, I had feelings that you would
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normally associate with what's growing up, with maturity, with going through puberty.
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But I had absolutely no idea what they were or what to do with them or what they were referred to.
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So it's important now to highlight it again, Moshe, and I are talking about
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ourselves a lot to the point where it kind of feels a little bit indulgent.
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But please indulge us for a moment because
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rosha had a situation where he
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knew he loved me right because we loved each other forever
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since we were little right we were friends since we
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were seven and he then developed you know special feelings for me but he had
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no idea how to put those two things together right and i knew how to put those
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two things together and i knew based on my experience what was supposed to happen
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but none of those things were happening So in general,
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through some of my research and life experience.
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I found that it's actually quite typical for autistic teenagers to have challenges
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in expressing love verbally or in socially acceptable ways.
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So, for example, Moshe never, you know, gave me overtures or bought me flowers
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or technically asked me out on a date or kissed me goodbye at the end of a date.
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Things that you would come to expect, right?
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Right. But instead, he did some really cute and adorable things that only now
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am I beginning to understand were him saying, I love you, and I have romantic
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feelings for you, and I don't know I would do it.
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Because with autistics, often, and again, not all autistics,
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but with autistics, especially ones that struggle with communication.
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As I clearly see you do, we try to find other ways of expressing ourselves when
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we're not able to find the words, per se.
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So, a lot of them are completely involuntary, and we just do them because they feel right.
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And a lot of them are voluntary because he rationalized, or at least I rationalized.
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I have these feelings when I'm around Leah.
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I don't actually know what they are or what to do with them.
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I only know what I want to do, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't want me to do
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them. And so, I probably should talk to her about it, but I don't know if what
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I'm telling her is going to be the right thing.
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So, what I'll do instead is try to show her how I feel, and maybe she'll get it.
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All right. So, a lot of autistics will express love in actions or by sharing their interests.
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And again, retroactively, I can see that for what it was. And often there were
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a lot of special memories that I kept through my entire life,
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and I didn't really know why they meant so much to me.
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I don't know. Let's tell a cute story. Let's see. I'm trying to think.
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It was really, okay, so it was really annoying.
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But we often, for whatever reason, our parents always brought us to beaches and water parks.
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And almost without fail, he would come up to me, grab me in the water, and attempt to drown me.
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Explain what that means. I just wouldn't buy it. So, touch, when it comes to
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neurodivergence, is often a sign of trust and a sign of affinity.
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Because touch is always so welcome, and because a lot of neurodivergents struggle
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with touch, it's typically reserved, if at all, for people that we feel a particular closeness to.
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I didn't necessarily like to be touched
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by people that I didn't know or I
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didn't trust and it made me uncomfortable of course I
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would skip it up if people were telling me that I was rude but I love to touch
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Leah I love to touch her as much as I could find a reason to without seeming
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weird and sometimes while seeming weird and what I wanted to do was find a way of showing
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her that I enjoyed being close to her and I enjoy touching her.
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And as a boy, my particular technique was to be violent.
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Raffhausen. Yes. Not like violent, like punching her in the face,
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but like grabbing her and wrestling with her and finding excuses to like push
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her and Scott. It sounds really rough and mean.
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Oh, it was. But for my, you know, autistic brain, it was the closest that I
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could come to a romantic gesture.
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So at that point, I found it very annoying and I would put up with it to a point
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and then I would just get really angry and sort of stalk away onto the beach
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or by the pool or wherever it was and just sort of stew and get really upset
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because I didn't understand it.
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And I also want to point out now that the way it sounds, I understand,
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doesn't seem healthy, right?
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So touching without somebody's consent, not healthy.
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Acting violently towards another, not healthy. And we understand that.
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By no means are we encouraging anybody to do that.
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It's just an example of how Noshak actually inappropriately shown his team.
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And that's definitely something to discuss. discuss
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because again as i mentioned in in
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the last episode and in previous episodes i i
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was essentially raised without any understanding or acceptance that i was neurodivergent
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forget being autistic they they didn't understand why you know or or that why
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i did the things i did or or that there was anything else going on other than
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the fact that i was a very very difficult and emotional personal child.
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So nobody took the time to discuss with me appropriate.
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Contact so ultimately yeah this story is actually extremely romantic because.
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Again it begins with sort of inappropriate contact right
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and me being upset but then when he
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would see that i was upset his you know he would gather his head and he would
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gather his thoughts and he would come sitting next to me on the beach and he
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would say i'm sorry don't be mad at me and i would be like well i'm upset but
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you're my best friend so i love you and we would and then the next time I'd
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go to a beach, you would do it all over again.
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But that's a different topic.
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So I did that a lot. And I would,
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I mean, I would take time away from the things that interested me,
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or I would involve Leah in things that interested me as a way of involving her
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in my own inner circle of hyperfocus, or whatever you want to call it.
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It was all very subtle and very, I don't know, it was very meaningful to me
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and probably didn't mean much to her, at least not in the same context.
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But it was the best that I had at the time, so it was not something that would
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have been that uncommon for someone who was still trying to figure out what
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to do with what was going on.
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So the nugget of what we're trying to get to here is that autistic teenagers
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have very specific needs, actually, where this is considered.
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And again, it depends on the level of functionality, of course.
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If somebody is not available or much higher needs, this might not apply to them
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necessarily, but it might, because everybody has a need to feel loved and accepted, right?
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Exactly. So, autistic teenagers need extra support to help navigate emerging romantic teens.
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What are some of the things that you should talk about to your autistic teenager
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to make sure that they have the support?
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Well, first of all, okay, you're going to notice changes that are given with any other child.
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Because I noticed the obvious secondary sexual characteristics that you have expressing.
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Periods, breasts, body hair, height and growing, facial hair, all that stuff.
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So then you might want to take the time to sit down with them and not have a birds and a bees.
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Necessarily conversation where you know slaw day goes into tabby and all that
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stuff but you want to explain the things that might be obvious to an artypical
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person that are not obvious to an autistic person so the first thing i have
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written here is explain attraction.
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What's attraction so i mean when you when you look when you look at somebody
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or some person Whether it's a person you know, or a picture of a person, or whatever,
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certain feelings may arise that if you don't understand attraction.
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Might be confusing.
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And for somebody who understands a little bit more, it might be obvious,
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like, oh, I have a crush on that person.
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Or, oh, I think I really like this person.
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And I'm not really sure how it works in a typical situation because
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I'm not but what it worked for
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me or what it looked like for me rather was mostly
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unwelcome feelings that I didn't understand right so for
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me too and I can understand that they weren't
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unwelcome but when you're very attracted to
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somebody it can cause intense physical feelings in
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your body that can actually feel like sickness so
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i can understand why to somebody the struggles
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with you know sensory things it
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could be an issue like that whole butterflies and stuff like that
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right it could feel like being nauseous it
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could feel like having a fever it can feel like palpitations or
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being shortness of breath it could feel like unwelcome and
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unfamiliar things happening in your private parts area
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that you want to you're going to have the kinds of conversations that
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you would normally they have with your with your children regardless of whether
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they're neurodivergent genotypical but the the the crux of it when it comes
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to neurodivergence is really when it comes to things like the feelings that
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you may experience what they might mean.
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And really, what is appropriate and what is not.
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Because what a lot of neurodivergent struggle with is social cues.
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And social cues, especially when it comes to pursuing a relationship,
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are extremely important.
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Because it's a dance, really. And the inclination for every other thing is,
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I want it, so I'm going to get it.
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I like the look of that, so I'm going to vote close to it and look at it.
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I want to touch that, so I'm going to touch it.
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And a lot of that kind of mentality has to be explained.
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Because if you're a parent of an autistic child,
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or if you are a partner of an autistic person, person then you you may end up
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having to have a conversation about appropriate and inappropriate.
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Touch or appropriate and inappropriate action right so let's talk about a story
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again that if i wasn't who i was and you weren't who you were and we weren't
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so familiar could have gone very bad yes so this always goes for parents for
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whatever reason wanting us to go swimming Yes.
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I took a lot of swimming in the week. I was in your mom's room. Right.
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Changing. Right. Into my bathing suit.
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And do you think that teenage Moshe took that as an excuse to leave the room and give me privacy?
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Or do you think that teenage Moshe took that as an excuse to stand there and watch me change?
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If you know me well enough at this point, I think you know the answer.
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But it was very much as I just said a case of Iwana Songa Eden.
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And if she doesn't want me to, then I won't. I mean, the way it went was kind
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of very cute and sweet again because of who I am and because of who he is.
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And because we were close, I sort of just like covered myself up,
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turned around and gave him a slap. Like, get out of here, dummy.
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But again, that's one of those things that has to be explained that if you don't
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know the person very well, or even if you do, it can go very badly when you do something.
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Unfortunately, there's lots of stories and posts on social media and accounts
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from parents of autistic children, particularly, unfortunately, autistic boys.
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Right. If I had made a big deal out of it, it could have been a whole thing.
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Because when you start developing feelings and attractions, that's the time
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to really try to understand the appropriateness of actions.
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Because it's not, unfortunately, very uncommon for autistic boys to be getting
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in trouble for looking at girls or peeking into the girl's locker room because
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they just kind of wanted to see.
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Or staring at a girl for too long because of something.
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And I have a personal story to share. And again, it doesn't cast me in the most positive light.
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But you know honest truth so when I was I want to say I want to say I was in grade four or five I.
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A new girl transferred into the school that I was going to, and I had never seen her before.
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And I wasn't particularly interested in anyone at that point.
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At least my brain wasn't, because I was still photoshopped on the newest video games or whatever.
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And she was, for lack of a better word, pre-developed in certain areas.
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And I would just kind of sit there and stare at her sometimes.
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And it wasn't because I was attracted to her, I don't think.
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And it wasn't necessarily because I was trying to give her any signals.
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It was mostly just me trying to figure out why I wanted to look at her.
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And eventually she was just like, do you mind? I was like, sorry.
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And it was one of those things where I was really uncomfortable with myself.
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Because I didn't actually understand what was going on and why it was going on.
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So it just kind of happened and
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that is not the
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first time that i have been accused of
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doing things that i really wasn't doing intentionally but mostly
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just trying to understand why there was an
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inflammation to do them whereas i'm a different kind of
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person that way my responses are very different i
285
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i can't really tell you why i am the way i
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am but i have a lot of thresholds so stuff like that so if you had been staring
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at me i would have been like hi what why are you looking at me i would have
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been like do you mind weirdo but that's just me and i respond to things it really
289
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depends on the nature of a person and unfortunately i'm i'm actually quite ashamed.
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Because as i got older i i thought a lot about the the very brief interaction
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that i had with this girl and I, and I questioned why I think her name might've been,
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Whitney or something, anyway, it doesn't really matter and the,
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the, the crux of what, what made a difference for me was not even that she was
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there and not even that she was particularly attracted to me or not even that I was,
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you know, caught looking at her.
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It was actually that.
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I felt sorry for her because her reaction and subsequent feelings,
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because after the episode there, I recall that she started crying.
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And it took me a few years later before I started thinking about it.
300
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And I realized that she was probably someone that got looked at a lot.
301
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Because unfortunately when you're like 11
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or 12 and you're a girl and you're
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in a class full of boys and you
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happen to you know develop at a certain rate you're going to catch the eye of
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people and it's going to make girls especially ones who don't want that kind
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of attention very uncomfortable that's exactly what i described happening to
307
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me in high school except for me it It wasn't,
308
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you know, my chest area was my bum area, but it was the same concept.
309
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Maybe worse because then people sort of follow behind you and watch you walk
310
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and stuff. Anyway, it's pretty gross.
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I can talk more about it another time if anybody, you know, has similar experiences
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or wants to hear about it, of course.
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So this brings up to me, actually, an interaction that I had with another autistic
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who happened to be a friend of my ex-spouse.
315
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And he's a very nice man.
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I want to say he's definitely a man now, but then we were, I don't know,
317
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early adulthood, so I guess now, if you want to say.
318
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And very nice, very sweet, doesn't seem like the type that would ever hurt a
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fly, but absolutely socially inappropriate to the extreme.
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He was raised not even acknowledging that there was anything wrong with him.
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So he got a diagnosis maybe around the same time
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as you or you later but he's more significantly effective
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than more socially anyway and i was
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just sitting on a couch talking to him one day just talking
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about i don't even know what video games or something and all
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of a sudden he reached out and he just hopped my
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breast yeah he went over out of nowhere and
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i can tell you he meant nothing by it but for
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me i was like how do i react to this now he doesn't mean
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anything by it i don't want to hurt his feelings i don't want to make him feel rejected but
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i can't let this go of course so it would have been better for somebody to sit
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him down at some point before he was like i don't know 22 or something right
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we were that age and tell them you don't just hawk women's breasts because they're
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there right you you told me that you did that and how did it go.
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Better than you would expect. He just removed his hand and he continued talking.
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00:25:42,741 --> 00:25:46,821
Right. Because it wasn't. It was very matter of fact. It's not like a rapey
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scenario that you would actually picture in a movie or anything.
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Right. It was literally as you described.
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Oh, that's nice. I want to touch it. Okay. Don't touch it. Oh,
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sorry. Okay. And then we moved right on. And that really goes into.
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But again, if I were a different girl, that could have gone very badly.
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It could because of course especially women
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are or i mean they have to be on guard for that
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but when it comes to neurodivergence and neurodiversity it's
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a real challenge and i mean okay i just want to say for the record that i'm
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not stating the neurodivergence or more like they did to do in a program with
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touching activities but it's all about boundaries and social cues and not necessarily
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reacting to the way you feel.
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Because what we really try to do, or what most people try to do now,
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certainly not then, was when you're discussing the idea of nerve divergence
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and relationships is appropriate versus inappropriate actions,
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and appropriate versus inappropriate appropriate feelings.
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When you want to talk about actions, because if you are a boy or girl,
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I guess, and you see someone that you're interested in, and first of all,
355
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you're at the level of understanding that you know that you're interested in this person,
356
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the next question is, what should I do about it?
357
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And there's a bunch of different things you can do.
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And this is why, if you're very lucky, you have family members that are very
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supportive They've been aware, first of all, of your adversity.
360
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And you can talk about things like appropriate and inappropriate touch.
361
00:27:28,241 --> 00:27:30,121
Absolutely. Appropriate and inappropriate feelings.
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And also the idea of respecting yourself.
363
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And that's very important, too, because if you are, and again,
364
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we're skipping ahead a bit,
365
00:27:41,021 --> 00:27:46,001
but if you are a neurodivergent who is trying to pursue a relationship with a neurotypical,
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especially if they don't know or even if
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you don't know that you're no divergent discussing what sorts
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of things are good and what sorts of things are not quite as good in a relationship
369
00:27:57,921 --> 00:28:01,961
right so one of the things on my list is sensory issues with expected romantic
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activities so again a neurotypical will
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expect a certain level of physical intimacy i want you to hold my hand,
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They'll expect hand-holding, they'll expect kissing, they'll expect hand-holding,
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they'll expect for you to touch them in private areas, they'll expect for to
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touch you in private areas.
375
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And sometimes, you know, things like body fluids happen from that,
376
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and that can be uncomfortable.
377
00:28:26,141 --> 00:28:29,781
Or, you know, whatever that feeling, whatever. Yeah.
378
00:28:30,487 --> 00:28:34,287
And especially when you're sort of an emoji, like teen autistic,
379
00:28:34,527 --> 00:28:36,687
you might not be prepared for those things.
380
00:28:37,107 --> 00:28:41,367
So that's another thing that could absolutely help to talk to them.
381
00:28:41,367 --> 00:28:48,127
You know that you're dating, I don't know, Stacy, let's call this imaginary girl, a few times.
382
00:28:48,507 --> 00:28:53,707
And she's kissed you, so she might want to touch your pet area.
383
00:28:53,887 --> 00:28:54,907
How would you feel about that?
384
00:28:55,247 --> 00:28:59,947
I mean, it's definitely a conversation. Generally, you would start the conversation
385
00:28:59,947 --> 00:29:03,587
by asking if they want like the whole hands. Right.
386
00:29:03,727 --> 00:29:09,827
But I mean, it's a working up, but absolutely like sex is, is a very important
387
00:29:09,827 --> 00:29:15,047
thing to discuss for the simple reason that if you're an error divergent and
388
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you are with someone who expects,
389
00:29:18,167 --> 00:29:22,407
like you said, after a certain point in their relationship to be more intimate,
390
00:29:22,547 --> 00:29:28,187
that number one, and you have to be aware of what you are willing to do.
391
00:29:28,447 --> 00:29:32,627
And you have to be able to verbalize that to someone else. I don't like it when
392
00:29:32,627 --> 00:29:37,767
you touch me like that because it makes me feel, so could we please do something else?
393
00:29:38,047 --> 00:29:43,487
And that goes, as you said, all the way from hand-holding to the most intimate of activities.
394
00:29:44,047 --> 00:29:48,627
And this is why relationships between our divergence and our typicals can be
395
00:29:48,627 --> 00:29:53,687
a bit complicated because we are trained to associate certain activities with relationships.
396
00:29:53,687 --> 00:29:58,407
And if you're a neurodivergent who happens to, you know, not be comfortable
397
00:29:58,407 --> 00:30:03,267
with touching of any kind, then telling your girlfriend or your boyfriend,
398
00:30:03,627 --> 00:30:07,207
I like you a lot, but I don't feel comfortable holding your hand.
399
00:30:07,767 --> 00:30:11,307
It's a bit of a, it's a bit of a dysphoria. It's a bit of a dysfrequency,
400
00:30:11,587 --> 00:30:13,847
but I thought that that's what we're supposed to do.
401
00:30:14,047 --> 00:30:18,907
So as adults, believe it or not, a conversation that Moshe and I had and something
402
00:30:18,907 --> 00:30:23,287
we had to work on was that he initially didn't actually like kissing that much. Correct.
403
00:30:23,687 --> 00:30:29,387
He said, I don't kiss much. And I said, well, you've had other relationships.
404
00:30:29,627 --> 00:30:32,827
How did you know that you were romantic with them?
405
00:30:33,557 --> 00:30:38,377
And that was very confusing to me. A lot of, and this is the problem that I was discussing.
406
00:30:38,577 --> 00:30:42,477
A lot of the, autistics are very good mimics.
407
00:30:42,917 --> 00:30:46,097
And we're decent at mirroring antinomy.
408
00:30:47,237 --> 00:30:53,397
So this is good and bad because it allows us to function based on what other people are doing.
409
00:30:53,637 --> 00:30:57,057
This is how I should act in this situation because this person is acting the
410
00:30:57,057 --> 00:30:58,037
same way in this situation.
411
00:30:58,037 --> 00:31:05,277
But it becomes negative when you have to rear someone who is either engaging
412
00:31:05,277 --> 00:31:09,037
in or wants to engage in something that they're not comfortable with.
413
00:31:09,857 --> 00:31:17,217
My girlfriend is trying to kiss me. So how do I reconcile my desire to not kiss
414
00:31:17,217 --> 00:31:21,857
anyone because it makes me feel uncomfortable with the fact that this is apparently
415
00:31:21,857 --> 00:31:23,137
the way I'm supposed to act?
416
00:31:23,137 --> 00:31:28,077
And did act many times with me previously to that conversation.
417
00:31:28,337 --> 00:31:32,897
So that was very confusing for me, probably very uncomfortable for you.
418
00:31:33,117 --> 00:31:36,177
It was just very weird all the way around.
419
00:31:36,537 --> 00:31:40,197
It was. And if somebody had taught you that it was okay to have boundaries,
420
00:31:40,377 --> 00:31:42,137
it probably would never have been an issue.
421
00:31:42,557 --> 00:31:50,897
And this kind of gets into the other topic about what you expect that,
422
00:31:50,897 --> 00:31:55,037
you know, establish a script that works for you.
423
00:31:55,177 --> 00:32:02,637
It's kind of scary because it leads itself to the idea that just a person could
424
00:32:02,637 --> 00:32:06,957
actually be intimate with somebody by accident.
425
00:32:07,517 --> 00:32:11,737
Well, as I mentioned before to this episode and other episodes,
426
00:32:11,997 --> 00:32:16,757
just because someone has autism, much like any other, you know,
427
00:32:16,777 --> 00:32:20,357
disability or condition or whatever you want to call it,
428
00:32:20,617 --> 00:32:23,897
disorder the the the emotional and
429
00:32:23,897 --> 00:32:27,217
developmental milestones may not be being hit but
430
00:32:27,217 --> 00:32:30,017
the physical things are still there the body
431
00:32:30,017 --> 00:32:33,097
still wants to develop the body still wants to procreate
432
00:32:33,097 --> 00:32:35,957
and if you are
433
00:32:35,957 --> 00:32:42,857
a boy or a man and you are with a girl or a woman provided that that's where
434
00:32:42,857 --> 00:32:49,717
your attraction lies then you might accidentally or or just by virtue of proximity
435
00:32:49,717 --> 00:32:53,337
end up in an intimate relationship just because it seems the most logical thing.
436
00:32:54,065 --> 00:32:59,185
And that's not necessarily a great thing because I've encountered many situations
437
00:32:59,185 --> 00:33:04,565
in my own life where I engaged in activities that I was absolutely uncomfortable
438
00:33:04,565 --> 00:33:11,725
with just because I was asked to do them and it seemed like that was what you're supposed to do. Yeah.
439
00:33:12,045 --> 00:33:15,785
So that's where I ended that. Because again, you're a very different type of person.
440
00:33:15,885 --> 00:33:18,485
When he said that, I said, whoa, we got to talk about that. Like,
441
00:33:18,485 --> 00:33:22,605
kissing is very important to me, but we have to get to a level here.
442
00:33:22,725 --> 00:33:24,785
We have to figure this out.
443
00:33:25,465 --> 00:33:28,865
I'm not just going to have, you know, and he did the thing that,
444
00:33:28,865 --> 00:33:31,485
you know, when we get something that he always did, which was like,
445
00:33:31,525 --> 00:33:33,605
well, I'll just suck it up and do it. It doesn't matter.
446
00:33:33,685 --> 00:33:36,665
I don't like it that much. And I was like, no, no, we're going to work on this.
447
00:33:36,885 --> 00:33:41,425
And we did. And I think when we caught COVID and we couldn't kiss each other
448
00:33:41,425 --> 00:33:44,725
for a little while, he sort of realized that he missed it. And then that helped.
449
00:33:46,185 --> 00:33:52,125
Because, unfortunately, when you go from mirroring or mimicking or writing a
450
00:33:52,125 --> 00:34:00,505
script to how you actually feel, it can lead to accusations of dishonesty.
451
00:34:00,505 --> 00:34:03,725
Because when you are an
452
00:34:03,725 --> 00:34:06,685
autistic who is masking and masks can be
453
00:34:06,685 --> 00:34:12,485
fully interactive like they can involve actual physical things you can mask
454
00:34:12,485 --> 00:34:16,645
while kissing you can mask while holding hands we can mask while having sex
455
00:34:16,645 --> 00:34:24,065
you can mask in the most awkward and intimate of circumstances and the The mast occasionally slips.
456
00:34:24,685 --> 00:34:31,005
And it was very common for me, not so common anymore, to be engaging in some
457
00:34:31,005 --> 00:34:33,645
sort of activity and just be like, I don't want to do this anymore.
458
00:34:34,045 --> 00:34:37,165
And then you have to sort of answer questions. Well, you were fine with it for
459
00:34:37,165 --> 00:34:39,625
the last two weeks. Why don't you want to do this thing?
460
00:34:39,985 --> 00:34:42,825
Well, I was never comfortable with it. And then, of course, it's a conversation.
461
00:34:43,525 --> 00:34:46,425
So why did you do it in the first place? Because I thought I was supposed to
462
00:34:46,425 --> 00:34:47,365
and I didn't want to make you nervous.
463
00:34:47,465 --> 00:34:51,345
It's the other people's person, the other field. about it makes them feel like
464
00:34:51,345 --> 00:34:56,465
they've victimized you and the the the somewhat uncomfortable is.
465
00:34:57,180 --> 00:35:03,500
Logical conclusion of that, and I don't mind sharing it for the purposes of
466
00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:09,060
highlighting my point, is several times in my own life,
467
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:13,740
particularly when I was a teenager and a young adult, I was a victim of sexual
468
00:35:13,740 --> 00:35:19,240
violence being done to me because I didn't know how to say no,
469
00:35:19,340 --> 00:35:21,220
and I didn't know that I was allowed to say no,
470
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,700
and I didn't know that I was supposed to say no.
471
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:27,400
Because if you are I'm glad
472
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,660
we displayed this episode the kind of person who
473
00:35:30,660 --> 00:35:34,980
is the kind of person who is
474
00:35:34,980 --> 00:35:39,860
taught to behave a certain way and it becomes ingrained in your consciousness
475
00:35:39,860 --> 00:35:47,700
as appropriate conduct because that all has to be expected then you end up in
476
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:53,160
a position where someone wants to do something and you say okay and then
477
00:35:53,340 --> 00:35:56,440
you don't enjoy what you're doing.
478
00:35:56,620 --> 00:36:03,500
And afterwards, it leaves some very real scars on your emotional state that
479
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:08,020
can definitely color future intimacies.
480
00:36:08,420 --> 00:36:10,720
Sonny, I'm really sorry that that happened to you.
481
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:15,380
Yeah, it did. And I have some even worse stories to tell about things like that.
482
00:36:15,540 --> 00:36:19,600
But I did promise last episode that this would be a much lighter thing.
483
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:22,740
So we can get into that at a later time.
484
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,180
But suffice it to say, the only reason I even brought it up at all was because
485
00:36:27,180 --> 00:36:30,640
when we're talking about appropriate things,
486
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:37,160
in the article that Leah sent to me about things that you want to talk to your
487
00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:41,800
autistic teenager about, one of the things that it says is the other person
488
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,840
asks you to do things that you feel safe and comfortable with. Absolutely.
489
00:36:46,350 --> 00:36:51,610
Autistic people are oftentimes very suggestible. Not all, of course, but oftentimes.
490
00:36:52,070 --> 00:36:57,050
And if you're with a partner or a potential partner or a friend who asks you
491
00:36:57,050 --> 00:37:01,290
to do something that you're not comfortable with, you are allowed to say no.
492
00:37:01,530 --> 00:37:06,570
Help your child or important autistic person to define their eye boundaries
493
00:37:06,570 --> 00:37:09,310
and to say that it's okay to keep them.
494
00:37:09,310 --> 00:37:15,050
Because, again, it was a very awkward situation for me to literally have to
495
00:37:15,050 --> 00:37:19,670
do that as an adult with Moshe and say, no, I actually care about you.
496
00:37:19,730 --> 00:37:24,230
Like, let's talk about what's actually going on with you here and what your boundaries are.
497
00:37:24,710 --> 00:37:28,670
Exactly. Because I was an adult woman, so my boundaries were way out there.
498
00:37:29,750 --> 00:37:34,590
Expectations were set for me because of a lack of understanding about the fact that I was autistic.
499
00:37:34,590 --> 00:37:41,430
And also a lack of respect for the people that were associated with me that I was used,
500
00:37:41,590 --> 00:37:47,090
not just in the intimate sense, but as a friend, because I was very agreeable
501
00:37:47,090 --> 00:37:51,010
most of the time and I was very funny and I was very charming.
502
00:37:51,430 --> 00:37:56,770
And the negative side to that is this guy seems very safe.
503
00:37:57,310 --> 00:38:00,430
I'm going to do whatever I want. I'm going to ask him for things.
504
00:38:00,670 --> 00:38:06,890
And he's going to say yes because he likes me and wants to make me happy. So he sees very soon.
505
00:38:07,150 --> 00:38:11,510
So again, just summarizing, because we're spending the whole episode on this,
506
00:38:11,690 --> 00:38:17,650
how your autistic individual was important to you to know what their boundaries
507
00:38:17,650 --> 00:38:20,650
are and know that they can keep them, that they can say no.
508
00:38:21,050 --> 00:38:24,370
And if the person doesn't like them after they say no, they won't voice them
509
00:38:24,370 --> 00:38:27,350
anyway. way, and they weren't a good potential. Exactly.
510
00:38:28,130 --> 00:38:32,690
We're already sort of talking about sexuality here, so another thing you may
511
00:38:32,690 --> 00:38:34,670
want to discuss is your...
512
00:38:35,602 --> 00:38:38,982
Child i guess or a person's sexuality not only
513
00:38:38,982 --> 00:38:41,642
do you want to talk about their sexuality but you want
514
00:38:41,642 --> 00:38:44,882
to be accepting of whatever comes because there
515
00:38:44,882 --> 00:38:47,922
tends to be i mean in human beings in general a lot
516
00:38:47,922 --> 00:38:51,042
of sexual fluidity and we can i guess
517
00:38:51,042 --> 00:38:54,102
talk about that though we're not experts at there's a
518
00:38:54,102 --> 00:38:57,862
lot of everyone into that right but neurodivergence
519
00:38:57,862 --> 00:39:00,982
also have a lot of sexual fluidity it tends
520
00:39:00,982 --> 00:39:03,722
to sort of go together not always of course not
521
00:39:03,722 --> 00:39:08,042
everyone it can actually be seen as something of a good thing because on
522
00:39:08,042 --> 00:39:10,862
many ways or in many ways autistic's lack
523
00:39:10,862 --> 00:39:14,002
of understanding of social boundaries and social ways and
524
00:39:14,002 --> 00:39:17,362
social cues can can appear to often
525
00:39:17,362 --> 00:39:20,122
make them not just appear but actually to make
526
00:39:20,122 --> 00:39:26,922
them feel very awkward and out of place and uncomfortable but if they can accept
527
00:39:26,922 --> 00:39:33,982
in in fact welcome their divergency and their diversity then they can realize
528
00:39:33,982 --> 00:39:39,462
that they're not necessarily bound by the labels that society often puts on people.
529
00:39:39,542 --> 00:39:47,322
Because if you are raised with the concept that there are people who are heterosexual
530
00:39:47,322 --> 00:39:54,302
and bisexual and homosexual, then you know where you fit, or potentially know where you fit.
531
00:39:54,482 --> 00:39:59,442
And especially as you develop more in your own sense of self and whatever.
532
00:39:59,542 --> 00:40:02,562
You can go, oh, okay, well, I guess I'm and this and that and whatever.
533
00:40:03,437 --> 00:40:08,117
Neurodivergents have a much higher instance of kind of, as Blaise said,
534
00:40:08,177 --> 00:40:12,677
fluidity, where rather than trying to fit themselves into a box, they're just like,
535
00:40:12,817 --> 00:40:17,577
I'm attracted to this member of the same sex, but I'm also attracted to this
536
00:40:17,577 --> 00:40:20,537
member of the opposite sex, and I'm attracted to this person,
537
00:40:20,597 --> 00:40:21,597
that person, and this person.
538
00:40:21,797 --> 00:40:28,797
And who they are matters a lot less to them if they don't necessarily feel that
539
00:40:28,797 --> 00:40:33,577
they're bound by the idea that they have to fit in a particular category.
540
00:40:34,077 --> 00:40:38,197
Right. So discussing what sexuality is, what attraction is,
541
00:40:38,357 --> 00:40:44,837
and that it's okay regardless of how they attempt to express that is especially
542
00:40:44,837 --> 00:40:50,137
important for the development of teenagers because a lot of people are in an
543
00:40:50,137 --> 00:40:51,637
experimental phase at that time.
544
00:40:51,757 --> 00:40:56,457
A lot of people are just trying things And they will figure out sort of where
545
00:40:56,457 --> 00:40:58,377
they fit later on in life.
546
00:40:58,537 --> 00:41:02,097
But you can't shame somebody into being something that they're not.
547
00:41:02,197 --> 00:41:06,917
So you absolutely need to have an open and honest conversation about that,
548
00:41:06,977 --> 00:41:09,157
regardless of how you might personally feel about it.
549
00:41:09,377 --> 00:41:15,057
As Orthodox Jews, the idea of sexual orientation is not normally a topic that
550
00:41:15,057 --> 00:41:17,077
we discuss too, too much.
551
00:41:17,237 --> 00:41:21,557
It's absolutely one in our house. But the reality of the situation is,
552
00:41:21,817 --> 00:41:27,677
or what I tell people when they ask about that discrepancy,
553
00:41:27,797 --> 00:41:34,817
is my faith in God has nothing to do with my attraction or the attraction of
554
00:41:34,817 --> 00:41:37,157
any of the people that I'm close to.
555
00:41:37,157 --> 00:41:49,257
And I vehemently oppose the idea that somebody can be gay or non-hetero and
556
00:41:49,257 --> 00:41:51,617
not be a very religious person.
557
00:41:51,757 --> 00:41:58,897
You absolutely can, because who you choose to be with is...
558
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:06,180
Is irrelevant to your faith. And I am going to always stand up for that.
559
00:42:06,340 --> 00:42:15,020
I do have children that are of that persuasion, and love and acceptance was
560
00:42:15,020 --> 00:42:17,680
present in all instances,
561
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:24,420
and it doesn't matter or affect how I pray or what I believe in or who I am as a person.
562
00:42:24,580 --> 00:42:30,960
And if it did, I would be a huge hitter. Right, because who are we as people, Moshe?
563
00:42:31,020 --> 00:42:35,980
Well, now we're attracted only to each other because we're in an organized relationship.
564
00:42:36,420 --> 00:42:41,440
Right. But we're both fluent, theoretically speaking.
565
00:42:41,740 --> 00:42:44,720
Yes. Not that we have a chance to really test that.
566
00:42:45,180 --> 00:42:49,180
Not that we would want to. And if we have at least two children,
567
00:42:49,260 --> 00:42:55,220
we're at least looking like it's going to go that way for them.
568
00:42:55,220 --> 00:43:00,220
And I've read some horrendous stories of various religious communities,
569
00:43:00,460 --> 00:43:03,640
whether they're Jewish or Christian or Muslim or whatever, that their children
570
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:08,140
were rejected because their children were gay.
571
00:43:08,140 --> 00:43:17,460
And I would not adhere to a faith that opted to make me decide between who I
572
00:43:17,460 --> 00:43:21,040
am and who I love as a person.
573
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:27,580
And my children, all of them, are exceptionally valuable to me and means that I support.
574
00:43:27,580 --> 00:43:30,620
Support and if if i'm going
575
00:43:30,620 --> 00:43:34,560
to tell one of my children that being jewish means
576
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,620
that they can't love who they want to love then i
577
00:43:37,620 --> 00:43:40,640
would fully expect them to to not
578
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:46,860
believe that being jewish was beneficial and that's not at all right so that's
579
00:43:46,860 --> 00:43:50,840
how it is in our household and we highly suggest that you know the whole sexual
580
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:55,960
fluidity thing is dealt with with openness yes so if your child comes to you
581
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,980
and expresses that they have romantic feelings for a member of the same sex,
582
00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:05,920
horror is not the correct response yeah there's there's certain extremes that you can go.
583
00:44:06,580 --> 00:44:11,680
I subscribe to the belief that you support your child on their journey and you
584
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,040
don't try to stick a label on their forehand and then force them to stick to
585
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,660
it and again that's not to say that sexual orientation is a choice that's on
586
00:44:19,660 --> 00:44:22,880
a road i'm going down but what i will say is that And oftentimes,
587
00:44:23,140 --> 00:44:24,400
as certain feelings develop,
588
00:44:24,720 --> 00:44:32,580
a child may waver between a bunch of different places, and you just kind of
589
00:44:32,580 --> 00:44:34,480
have to come along for the ride.
590
00:44:34,860 --> 00:44:38,820
And that doesn't mean that you're denying your child's feelings,
591
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:44,600
and it doesn't mean that you're just kind of throwing them in a pride parade either.
592
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:48,120
You have to follow where your child wants to go in their journey.
593
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,660
And our own life experience has helped us greatly with that.
594
00:44:52,347 --> 00:44:58,147
So, that might be a good time, because especially when your romantic pool is
595
00:44:58,147 --> 00:45:04,367
doubled, right, it might be difficult to know when somebody is interested in you.
596
00:45:04,367 --> 00:45:09,987
And a certain thing that some autistics might not know because they tend to
597
00:45:09,987 --> 00:45:11,487
be very out there, right?
598
00:45:11,527 --> 00:45:16,947
They tend to be very truthful and not be as prone to conceal things as others
599
00:45:16,947 --> 00:45:22,607
is they may not know that other people often attempt to conceal their romantic feelings.
600
00:45:22,967 --> 00:45:25,907
It's like this little hard to get game that people
601
00:45:25,907 --> 00:45:28,767
play or they may be embarrassed of the fact that they're
602
00:45:28,767 --> 00:45:31,947
attracted to someone and that they actually do conceal the
603
00:45:31,947 --> 00:45:34,927
fact sometimes times that they might be attracted to the problem
604
00:45:34,927 --> 00:45:38,527
and it kind of goes back to the beginning of of our scripting today
605
00:45:38,527 --> 00:45:45,987
when when you are guided by overt signs and over-the-top gestures and and not
606
00:45:45,987 --> 00:45:53,807
very comfortable or familiar with subtle cues then it's very common to miss
607
00:45:53,807 --> 00:45:57,407
things that would often didn't be noticed.
608
00:45:57,827 --> 00:46:02,947
It says in this article that they said that visual supports can help.
609
00:46:03,247 --> 00:46:08,127
That makes me a bit uncomfortable, only because I can't imagine sitting down
610
00:46:08,127 --> 00:46:10,767
with a teenager and going, this person is looking a certain way.
611
00:46:10,847 --> 00:46:13,847
What do you think they're looking at? I think what they're discussing here is
612
00:46:13,847 --> 00:46:15,167
actually social stories.
613
00:46:16,087 --> 00:46:20,647
The videos that we show to Avram about don't touch people without their permission,
614
00:46:20,827 --> 00:46:24,307
but they're social stories that sort of grow with a person.
615
00:46:24,567 --> 00:46:27,727
So this is Sally. sally's looking at bill what do
616
00:46:27,727 --> 00:46:30,567
you think sally's thinking when she's looking at bill stuff like that
617
00:46:30,567 --> 00:46:33,987
they're talking about social stories as visual aids they're not
618
00:46:33,987 --> 00:46:40,447
talking about like porn no no no no definitely you need to spend very small
619
00:46:40,447 --> 00:46:48,067
so you're basically looking for some cues if you're if you're a teenager who's
620
00:46:48,067 --> 00:46:51,567
neurodivergent that maybe you're missing You know,
621
00:46:51,667 --> 00:46:54,787
why is that person always looking at me and smiling?
622
00:46:54,967 --> 00:46:59,687
Why does that person always approach me after class and want to walk with me?
623
00:47:00,027 --> 00:47:03,767
She keeps trying to, like, accidentally touching me.
624
00:47:03,867 --> 00:47:09,527
Or, you know, that guy keeps smiling and winking at me. What's wrong with him?
625
00:47:09,567 --> 00:47:10,667
Why does he keep doing that?
626
00:47:10,947 --> 00:47:15,787
Or he seems to always ask me what I'm doing after school. I don't know why he's
627
00:47:15,787 --> 00:47:17,327
so interested in what I'm doing.
628
00:47:17,467 --> 00:47:22,207
Yes. Like, things like that. And it absolutely be a stereotypical that,
629
00:47:22,347 --> 00:47:25,027
and again, this is not meant to highlight anything,
630
00:47:25,227 --> 00:47:29,447
but like I told Leah, when I, when Facebook first came out and everyone was
631
00:47:29,447 --> 00:47:33,127
kind of looking for everyone and so they realized that they didn't necessarily
632
00:47:33,127 --> 00:47:35,427
want to be in touch with everyone that they ever knew ever.
633
00:47:36,233 --> 00:47:42,133
I had a lot of messages from, you know, girls in elementary school and the early
634
00:47:42,133 --> 00:47:44,973
parts of high school that were like, oh, it's so cool to see you on Facebook.
635
00:47:45,133 --> 00:47:46,673
You know, I had such a huge crush on you.
636
00:47:47,193 --> 00:47:50,853
And I would be like, I don't actually even remember you.
637
00:47:51,693 --> 00:47:55,473
But that's the kind of person that I was then, where I would be so obtuse and
638
00:47:55,473 --> 00:47:59,973
so dense that I didn't even pay attention to where I was walking,
639
00:48:00,093 --> 00:48:01,473
though, on how people were reacting.
640
00:48:01,753 --> 00:48:05,733
But you were so adorable, so I don't blame any of them. I mean,
641
00:48:05,753 --> 00:48:06,633
I still have it portable.
642
00:48:08,673 --> 00:48:13,713
So that actually segues nicely into my next point, which is if they're nice
643
00:48:13,713 --> 00:48:15,353
to you, if they smile at you,
644
00:48:15,593 --> 00:48:18,993
if they want to eat lunch with you, if they want to walk with you,
645
00:48:19,033 --> 00:48:23,153
if they want to talk to you about stuff, that also conversely doesn't always
646
00:48:23,153 --> 00:48:24,993
indicate romantic interest.
647
00:48:25,353 --> 00:48:28,973
And that's an important thing to also drive on.
648
00:48:29,233 --> 00:48:33,453
Yeah, appropriate condoms. So if somebody is smiling at you,
649
00:48:33,573 --> 00:48:36,073
maybe they like you as a friend.
650
00:48:36,193 --> 00:48:41,913
If somebody is showing you signs that you might have misinterpreted,
651
00:48:41,993 --> 00:48:47,693
it's better to err on the side of caution and not touch them inappropriately
652
00:48:47,693 --> 00:48:49,833
if you are reading the signals wrong.
653
00:48:50,573 --> 00:48:53,713
Appropriate touch, appropriate conduct, appropriate actions,
654
00:48:53,833 --> 00:48:55,853
appropriateness in general.
655
00:48:55,853 --> 00:48:58,813
And oftentimes an autistic
656
00:48:58,813 --> 00:49:02,273
person will say i think that girl was flirting with me she was smiling at me
657
00:49:02,273 --> 00:49:07,273
but and and the the sad truth is she smiles at everyone because she works in
658
00:49:07,273 --> 00:49:10,753
a coffee shop and that's customer service it's not necessarily that she was
659
00:49:10,753 --> 00:49:15,373
trying to ask what you can try sometimes they are you can try never hurts to
660
00:49:15,373 --> 00:49:17,233
or it shouldn't hurt to say hey you want to,
661
00:49:17,873 --> 00:49:22,133
go out for coffee sometime and they're like no not i don't think when you're
662
00:49:22,133 --> 00:49:25,793
in full mask so like Like when you're well-rested and you've prayed and you've
663
00:49:25,793 --> 00:49:27,313
had your coffee and all your medication,
664
00:49:27,633 --> 00:49:34,093
I've seen you dismantle service girls like in a second because you are one charming dude.
665
00:49:34,433 --> 00:49:37,453
I really am. And it's a skill that I have.
666
00:49:37,833 --> 00:49:40,613
It's unfortunately a curse that I have to live with.
667
00:49:41,633 --> 00:49:47,153
They don't know the real you like I do. Yeah. If they did, they would run for their head.
668
00:49:47,353 --> 00:49:53,813
No, they wouldn't. But yeah, it's interesting to watch an accomplished autistic like Moshe and Fulness.
669
00:49:55,573 --> 00:50:01,833
So anyway. So, masking. Let's talk about explaining what no means.
670
00:50:02,213 --> 00:50:10,073
Yes. Like I said, it's very challenging to understand the concept of rejection.
671
00:50:10,733 --> 00:50:15,133
Whether rejection is rejection and what rejection sounds like.
672
00:50:15,133 --> 00:50:23,333
An autistic person often struggles with the concept of not getting their way.
673
00:50:23,493 --> 00:50:30,153
And again, that's a bit of a touchy subject and really has more to do with applying
674
00:50:30,153 --> 00:50:34,713
it to other aspects of everyday life. Yeah.
675
00:50:35,261 --> 00:50:40,921
And in general, if you want a particular toy, or you want a certain thing to
676
00:50:40,921 --> 00:50:48,401
eat, or you want something that you like, then you're going to want it,
677
00:50:48,421 --> 00:50:50,061
and that's just how it is.
678
00:50:50,061 --> 00:50:54,921
But when we're talking about like a person who is an independent entity,
679
00:50:55,181 --> 00:51:01,861
if they say no to you, especially if they say no to a romantic interest.
680
00:51:03,041 --> 00:51:09,701
Then you have to be able to say okay and not pursue it.
681
00:51:10,001 --> 00:51:13,201
But conversely, that you're also allowed to say no. Absolutely.
682
00:51:13,361 --> 00:51:17,201
If you're trying to pursue someone and they say no to you, you need to be able
683
00:51:17,201 --> 00:51:19,621
to understand that and say, come on, please. Right.
684
00:51:20,061 --> 00:51:24,261
But also you, if they say, I would like to, would you like to hold my hand?
685
00:51:24,741 --> 00:51:28,281
You really like this person. You really want to be in a relationship with them,
686
00:51:28,281 --> 00:51:30,321
but you're just not comfortable with it.
687
00:51:30,401 --> 00:51:35,541
You have the right to say, I'm sorry, I really like you, but I'm not comfortable with holding hands.
688
00:51:35,841 --> 00:51:41,281
And if that is a problem, then it needs to be discussed.
689
00:51:42,081 --> 00:51:45,241
Yeah, absolutely. When you enter a relationship with a narrative version,
690
00:51:45,361 --> 00:51:47,781
this is just kind of one of those conversations that come up.
691
00:51:47,781 --> 00:51:50,381
And how you respond to them, and they show some that you care.
692
00:51:50,601 --> 00:51:54,901
The problem is that teens often don't have the level of maturity that's required for something.
693
00:51:55,121 --> 00:51:58,881
He will be like, oh, he didn't hold my hand, so I guess we're not dating anymore.
694
00:51:59,081 --> 00:52:06,081
And that's a hard thing. It really is. I can see why people are socialized into just doing whatever.
695
00:52:06,521 --> 00:52:09,681
Because we teach people on how they're supposed to behave in relationships.
696
00:52:10,501 --> 00:52:15,041
And there's countless stories all over social media and everything about how
697
00:52:15,041 --> 00:52:19,961
people who are autistic are very uncomfortable because their partner always
698
00:52:19,961 --> 00:52:24,301
wants to touch them or always wants to hold their hand in public or always wants
699
00:52:24,301 --> 00:52:25,561
to hold their hand in general.
700
00:52:26,349 --> 00:52:30,489
Or just seems to like to be really close to them, and they don't know how to
701
00:52:30,489 --> 00:52:34,009
say that it makes them uncomfortable without hurting their shoes.
702
00:52:34,509 --> 00:52:38,969
And that's something that they have to consider. So that brings me to the next
703
00:52:38,969 --> 00:52:44,149
topic, which is discussing good and bad signs when it comes to a partner.
704
00:52:44,529 --> 00:52:48,029
What would be signs that somebody may be a good partner for you,
705
00:52:48,129 --> 00:52:51,729
and what would be signs that somebody may be not a good partner for you? Right.
706
00:52:51,849 --> 00:52:56,669
Unfortunately, autistics are prone to taking people at their word.
707
00:52:56,769 --> 00:53:00,249
And the reality is, unfortunately, not everyone has the best of intentions.
708
00:53:00,609 --> 00:53:05,669
Yes. And if we take everything at face value and we don't have that sense of
709
00:53:05,669 --> 00:53:14,069
cynicism or mistrust or suspiciousness, then if a person, man or woman, sees you and likes you.
710
00:53:14,909 --> 00:53:20,929
They may often make you feel or do things that are either not things you'd be comfortable doing,
711
00:53:20,929 --> 00:53:24,429
doing it or that are actually bad and
712
00:53:24,429 --> 00:53:27,329
and that's the problem that that i ran into and
713
00:53:27,329 --> 00:53:30,389
some of the things that you know are are
714
00:53:30,389 --> 00:53:34,809
common for example in good good things you're going to look for someone that
715
00:53:34,809 --> 00:53:39,149
asks you to do things that make you feel safe and isn't conversely isn't going
716
00:53:39,149 --> 00:53:44,249
to make you do things if you don't feel comfortable to a person that is honest
717
00:53:44,249 --> 00:53:49,169
with you and doesn't try to They mislead you or tell you lies or manipulate you.
718
00:53:49,289 --> 00:53:52,129
Right. So somebody who cares about you will listen to you.
719
00:53:52,933 --> 00:53:56,253
A person that doesn't expect you to do everything.
720
00:53:56,593 --> 00:54:04,913
For example, if you are with somebody and they say, I'd like to go to the movies today.
721
00:54:05,453 --> 00:54:09,433
And you're like, you know, my social battery is a bit down today.
722
00:54:09,573 --> 00:54:12,313
Do you mind if we just stay home and watch a movie together?
723
00:54:12,833 --> 00:54:16,313
They're going to be okay with that. They're going to say, oh, you know what?
724
00:54:16,353 --> 00:54:19,953
I really want to see a movie, but I understand. And how about tonight,
725
00:54:20,113 --> 00:54:25,153
maybe just watch a movie tonight, but maybe later on some other time we can go out.
726
00:54:25,293 --> 00:54:30,273
If you're feeling okay with something that someone said to me once upon a time,
727
00:54:30,353 --> 00:54:35,333
and I keep quoting it to Spock, is you want to be with someone who is as excited
728
00:54:35,333 --> 00:54:37,433
to be around you as you are to be around them.
729
00:54:37,573 --> 00:54:42,353
Because one of my problems in relationships was I was the one who had to do everything.
730
00:54:42,553 --> 00:54:47,093
And by do everything, I mean pay for them, look after them, support them emotionally, support them.
731
00:54:47,093 --> 00:54:50,053
But when I needed that they weren't and
732
00:54:50,053 --> 00:54:53,573
what what I had to discover is that
733
00:54:53,573 --> 00:54:56,613
not only was I looking in the
734
00:54:56,613 --> 00:55:00,593
wrong places when it came to the people I associated with but also that the
735
00:55:00,593 --> 00:55:05,373
mark of a good relationship be it a friend or romantic is someone who's just
736
00:55:05,373 --> 00:55:09,813
genuinely happy to be with you exactly and it's not a relationship at all really
737
00:55:09,813 --> 00:55:13,573
if they're not there because relationships are two ways at minimum. Absolutely.
738
00:55:13,993 --> 00:55:17,493
Another red flag that I've actually taught most as an adult,
739
00:55:17,613 --> 00:55:21,573
sadly enough, to look for is if somebody asks you for money all the time. Yes.
740
00:55:22,113 --> 00:55:29,373
Many of the times that in order to be nice to people, when I did have money,
741
00:55:29,453 --> 00:55:32,273
I would pay for things for them. I would buy them gifts.
742
00:55:32,753 --> 00:55:34,653
I once worked...
743
00:55:35,433 --> 00:55:39,413
Someplace. And one of my co-workers asked me if I would mind paying him off
744
00:55:39,413 --> 00:55:43,733
for $5,000 for the current bill, to which I was happy to do it because she said
745
00:55:43,733 --> 00:55:45,633
that she would really appreciate it.
746
00:55:46,053 --> 00:55:51,053
And of course, I was happy to do it and not realizing what an imbecile I was.
747
00:55:52,053 --> 00:55:58,333
And as some of my own comeuppance, at a later time when I was financially scrapped,
748
00:55:58,453 --> 00:56:03,173
I asked them if they could possibly help me out a little bit.
749
00:56:03,233 --> 00:56:06,393
And they're like, Like, no, I don't really have anything like that. Right.
750
00:56:06,633 --> 00:56:11,453
Because that's the nature it is. And this is unfortunately why a lot of autistic
751
00:56:11,453 --> 00:56:17,933
and neurodivergent people struggle with being in relationships with both neurodivergent
752
00:56:17,933 --> 00:56:18,793
and neurodivergent people.
753
00:56:19,073 --> 00:56:25,593
Because unless they're taught certain things, they don't always have the knowledge
754
00:56:25,593 --> 00:56:28,733
to know when they're being taken advantage of. Right.
755
00:56:29,113 --> 00:56:33,453
So what are some good signs that you might want to be in a romantic relationship with someone?
756
00:56:33,713 --> 00:56:37,473
Someone who is excited to be around you. Someone who doesn't,
757
00:56:37,473 --> 00:56:39,953
you know, bully you or say things that make you feel bad.
758
00:56:40,133 --> 00:56:45,573
Someone who listens to you. You might spend, you know, the first third of every
759
00:56:45,573 --> 00:56:52,653
date with them talking about the trains or the newest comic book that came out
760
00:56:52,653 --> 00:56:54,593
or the newest Marvel thing.
761
00:56:54,593 --> 00:56:57,553
Or did you catch that latest episode of like Doctor Who or whatever?
762
00:56:57,553 --> 00:57:00,653
Hour and you can care less
763
00:57:00,653 --> 00:57:03,373
about doctor who but if you care about them they'll
764
00:57:03,373 --> 00:57:07,493
go really tell me more about that and conversely
765
00:57:07,493 --> 00:57:11,173
they'll be like okay you know what that was really interesting would
766
00:57:11,173 --> 00:57:14,253
it be okay with you if we talked about something
767
00:57:14,253 --> 00:57:16,973
else and yes sometimes that literally has to be
768
00:57:16,973 --> 00:57:20,513
scripted on our date nights and stuff absolutely so
769
00:57:20,513 --> 00:57:23,833
now masha i want to talk about the kids and now i
770
00:57:23,833 --> 00:57:26,833
want to talk about you know our family situation
771
00:57:26,833 --> 00:57:29,733
and now i want to talk about finances okay now
772
00:57:29,733 --> 00:57:34,073
we can talk about he's not into trains but i don't know politics now we can
773
00:57:34,073 --> 00:57:40,333
talk about politics yes keeping on topic listening to them i mean those are
774
00:57:40,333 --> 00:57:45,893
the examples that that this article gives give me your top five red flags yours
775
00:57:45,893 --> 00:57:48,273
your personal ones my personal ones yeah Yeah,
776
00:57:48,273 --> 00:57:51,113
it's been an enough life experience now. Unfortunately.
777
00:57:51,413 --> 00:57:59,833
I have to go back to that adage that someone is just not that exciting to be around.
778
00:58:00,433 --> 00:58:05,473
You are coming in there with everything that you've got.
779
00:58:05,693 --> 00:58:11,393
And the person's like, eye rolling, sighing, looking at their watch,
780
00:58:11,753 --> 00:58:14,553
looking at their phone, looking around.
781
00:58:15,413 --> 00:58:17,673
They just don't seem like they're paying attention.
782
00:58:19,033 --> 00:58:23,633
That's a, that's definitely a right flag for me. The other one is somebody that
783
00:58:23,633 --> 00:58:26,953
doesn't listen to what I'm saying.
784
00:58:27,573 --> 00:58:31,273
If, if someone says, can I give you a hug? And you're like, you know what?
785
00:58:31,333 --> 00:58:33,813
I would rather not know, like, oh, come on, like.
786
00:58:34,497 --> 00:58:39,137
You're being dumb or whatever. So that's two things. Not respecting your boundaries, red flag.
787
00:58:39,537 --> 00:58:46,197
And not listening to you is a red flag. Asking for money or asking for anything. Anything.
788
00:58:46,637 --> 00:58:49,557
Especially if you don't have that close of a relationship, right?
789
00:58:49,697 --> 00:58:50,577
There's different levels.
790
00:58:50,877 --> 00:58:53,957
If you haven't been to the other person's house, if you haven't had dinner with
791
00:58:53,957 --> 00:58:57,437
them, if you haven't met their parents, they shouldn't be asking you for favors like mine.
792
00:58:58,277 --> 00:59:01,197
I mean, obviously, it's going to
793
00:59:01,197 --> 00:59:04,237
be someone money who doesn't understand
794
00:59:04,237 --> 00:59:07,217
that i'm not a virgin i mean obviously
795
00:59:07,217 --> 00:59:10,237
now it's not going to be an issue but in the past
796
00:59:10,237 --> 00:59:16,437
if i expressed a particular concern and they were just like some of them do
797
00:59:16,437 --> 00:59:20,557
seem bizarre and out of left field but you have to explain that and that would
798
00:59:20,557 --> 00:59:23,877
require the person to care enough to listen instead of doing that to listen
799
00:59:23,877 --> 00:59:27,297
so listening is definitely a big one Well,
800
00:59:27,577 --> 00:59:31,317
the last thing that I have on the list here for this episode,
801
00:59:31,537 --> 00:59:39,117
because we've run out of time, again, is to explain to your teen that teen romances
802
00:59:39,117 --> 00:59:40,937
often don't last forever.
803
00:59:41,537 --> 00:59:45,737
In our case, that absolutely wouldn't have been the case, but we had no way
804
00:59:45,737 --> 00:59:47,837
of knowing that, actually, besides 2020.
805
00:59:48,417 --> 00:59:52,077
The reality is the majority of relationships that are begun before the age of
806
00:59:52,077 --> 00:59:54,137
25 are going to end. Right, exactly.
807
00:59:54,337 --> 00:59:58,757
So you discuss with them, you know, that inevitable breakup that may be coming.
808
00:59:59,197 --> 01:00:02,937
You hope that they have a nice, long and happy relationship with the person
809
01:00:02,937 --> 01:00:04,717
that they care about, but it's a possibility.
810
01:00:05,197 --> 01:00:08,897
And that they should maintain balance in their life.
811
01:00:09,197 --> 01:00:14,397
So letting go of all their friends and all their interests and never going to
812
01:00:14,397 --> 01:00:15,597
family gatherings, etc.
813
01:00:15,897 --> 01:00:22,337
Just to pour all of their resources into this one person that may not last forever is not a smart idea.
814
01:00:23,253 --> 01:00:28,113
Certain autistics, myself included, have a lot of trouble with attachment.
815
01:00:28,473 --> 01:00:32,353
Some of them don't get attached at all, and some of them get too attached.
816
01:00:32,633 --> 01:00:37,013
And when you are the kind of autistic that I am, it gets very emotionally invested
817
01:00:37,013 --> 01:00:41,673
in literally everyone, which is why I have to hold most people at a distance.
818
01:00:41,853 --> 01:00:46,073
It's not because I'm standoffish or arrogant. It's because I literally cannot
819
01:00:46,073 --> 01:00:51,973
get close to you and get bonded with you and then have you disappointed because
820
01:00:51,973 --> 01:00:53,253
it will absolutely destroy.
821
01:00:53,533 --> 01:00:59,313
And the reality is, unfortunately or fortunately dependent, if you are a teen,
822
01:00:59,513 --> 01:01:03,673
even an older teen, like 18 or 19, and you're in a relationship,
823
01:01:04,033 --> 01:01:11,113
I'm really sorry, but chances are good, in fact, almost certain that it will not last.
824
01:01:11,553 --> 01:01:14,753
It may end after a few weeks. It may end after a few months.
825
01:01:14,953 --> 01:01:19,833
It may even end after a few years, but it's not going to last. 23 years? Yes.
826
01:01:20,933 --> 01:01:26,813
So, when you have the kind of person who gets very emotionally invested in relationships,
827
01:01:27,293 --> 01:01:32,613
you have to accept that there is going to be disappointment,
828
01:01:32,893 --> 01:01:34,113
there is going to be sadness.
829
01:01:34,113 --> 01:01:36,873
This and deciding when you're
830
01:01:36,873 --> 01:01:39,833
13 or 14 that you
831
01:01:39,833 --> 01:01:42,973
have to just give up your whole life and devote
832
01:01:42,973 --> 01:01:45,993
it fully to this one person who you can't
833
01:01:45,993 --> 01:01:51,993
bear to be away from ever ever ever ever ever is not healthy nor is i mean to
834
01:01:51,993 --> 01:01:55,713
be fair it's not healthy anyway because one of the the red flags is a partner
835
01:01:55,713 --> 01:02:00,673
who asks you to give up everything to to pander to them right that's also the
836
01:02:00,673 --> 01:02:04,133
idea but but But again, that was our experience,
837
01:02:04,873 --> 01:02:07,553
but later in life and retrospective.
838
01:02:07,693 --> 01:02:09,353
And, you know, results not typical.
839
01:02:10,344 --> 01:02:15,024
No, unfortunately, they're not typical. If you are very fortunate and happen
840
01:02:15,024 --> 01:02:18,564
to meet your soulmate when you're seven years old, then Mazel Tov.
841
01:02:18,824 --> 01:02:24,744
That is wonderful for you. And I wish you all the love and happiness in your life.
842
01:02:25,244 --> 01:02:34,064
But if you're the kind of person who is emotionally invested in a new partner, be very cautious.
843
01:02:34,064 --> 01:02:39,724
And if you are the parent of an autistic teenager who is now fully obsessed
844
01:02:39,724 --> 01:02:41,964
with their new girlfriend or boyfriend,
845
01:02:42,304 --> 01:02:48,504
it's probably a good idea to discuss not giving up everything about themselves
846
01:02:48,504 --> 01:02:53,224
just to immerse themselves in a relationship that may not unfortunately last.
847
01:02:53,224 --> 01:02:55,944
Last yep and when the
848
01:02:55,944 --> 01:02:59,044
inevitable breakup does happen you can support
849
01:02:59,044 --> 01:03:01,924
your your child by encouraging them to be close to
850
01:03:01,924 --> 01:03:07,924
family and do things that they enjoy and to talk about their feelings and express
851
01:03:07,924 --> 01:03:12,764
themselves they can write a journal they can write letters they can spend a
852
01:03:12,764 --> 01:03:17,764
week in the room crying i mean it's completely normal and sending angry emails
853
01:03:17,764 --> 01:03:21,564
or texting and they're now acts more.
854
01:03:21,824 --> 01:03:23,804
Or begging them back constantly.
855
01:03:24,184 --> 01:03:28,084
Don't, don't, don't, don't do that. And don't like start bullying them or spreading
856
01:03:28,084 --> 01:03:30,344
rumors about them at school, I think, because that's been cool.
857
01:03:30,784 --> 01:03:34,884
Okay, that is all for this topic. Thank you, Leah.
858
01:03:35,704 --> 01:03:39,924
Well, that's all the time we have, I'll tell you that. We are going to have
859
01:03:39,924 --> 01:03:44,424
a third episode where we do discuss, we promised you that we're going to discuss Love on the Spectrum.
860
01:03:44,624 --> 01:03:47,864
Right. And why two autistics together isn't necessarily the best.
861
01:03:47,864 --> 01:03:51,684
But I think that it's going to be a shorter episode and maybe a puny content.
862
01:03:52,044 --> 01:03:54,624
For sure. So thank you very much for listening.
863
01:03:55,604 --> 01:03:59,824
Well, that's our show for today. One Autistic, just a little bit better.
864
01:04:00,524 --> 01:04:06,424
So something you may not know about some autistics is that we often struggle
865
01:04:06,424 --> 01:04:08,104
with ending social interactions.
866
01:04:09,064 --> 01:04:13,384
So, Leah? All right, Moshe, I'll take care of it.
867
01:04:13,744 --> 01:04:17,744
Thank you for listening to Now You Know One Autistic. See you next week.
868
01:04:18,800 --> 01:04:25,625
Music.