Episode Title: Surprising Insights: How Do Neurodivergent LGBTQ+ Lives Defy Labels?

Episode Number: 21

Release Date: Aug 12, 2024

Duration: 1:13:30

Episode Summary:

In this episode of Now You Know One Autistic, Moshe and Leah explore the intersection of neurodivergence and LGBTQ+ identities with their special guest, Annie. They delve into the complexities of navigating multiple marginalized identities, societal expectations, and the challenges of coming out in a world that often misunderstands both neurodivergence and queerness. The conversation also touches on the lack of representation and research in this area, highlighting the need for greater understanding and acceptance.

Key Takeaways

  • Neuroqueer Theory: The concept that individuals who deviate from societal norms in one aspect of their identity are more likely to deviate in others, leading to a potential correlation between neurodivergence and LGBTQ+ identities.
  • Double Minority Effect: The compounded challenges faced by individuals navigating multiple marginalized identities, such as masking behaviors, cognitive limitations, and decision paralysis.
  • Barriers to Care: The difficulties faced by neurodivergent LGBTQ+ individuals in accessing appropriate mental health care and gender-affirming care due to lack of training, funding, and societal biases.

In This Episode, You Will Learn:

  • The complexities of navigating multiple marginalized identities.
  • The challenges of coming out as both neurodivergent and LGBTQ+.
  • The importance of representation and research in understanding the intersection of these identities.
  • The need for greater acceptance and understanding of neurodivergent LGBTQ+ individuals.

Quotes

  • "The more neurodivergence that goes into any situation, the more complex it becomes." - Annie
  • "Being autistic does not mean that you are incapable of being a contributing member of any society." - Moshe
  • "You are still a person and you still deserve the same love and respect and help, regardless of whether you're big, tall, fat, thin, autistic, neurotypical male, female, gay, straight." - Moshe

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Transcript:

[00:08] Moshe: Hi, I'm Moshe, and I'm autistic.

[00:10] Leah: I'm Leah, and I'm boring. Welcome to the now, you know, one autistic podcast.

[00:16] Moshe: The opinions expressed in this podcast reflect one autistic and one layout and don't necessarily reflect the entire autistic community.

[00:25] Leah: Let's get to it. Hi, Moshe.

[00:32] Moshe: Hi, Leah.

[00:33] Leah: How are you, sweetheart?

[00:34] Moshe: I'm doing wonderful.

[00:35] Leah: What are we doing today?

[00:36] Moshe: Well, today we have a very special guest that we have spoken to quite a few times, and you may have seen a couple of posts that we have done on social media that this person happens to be a close friend of both of us because we have with us today. Annie. How you doing, Annie?

[00:55] Annie: Doing good. Doing good.

[00:56] Leah: So, Annie, who are you to us? I mean, Moshe already said you're a very close family friend.

[01:01] Annie: Yeah.

[01:02] Leah: A little bit about your history and who you are.

[01:04] Annie: I. I am Annie yells, better known as Persephone, but I am the. The ex that has been previously mentioned. Yes. We are completely friendly.

[01:18] Leah: You should specify whose ex you are, because people won't.

[01:23] Annie: I am Leah's ex.

[01:25] Leah: Yes. So this is my ex also. Not just my ex, but also. We were all. We were all friends together since very young, actually.

[01:34] Annie: Yes, that's true.

[01:35] Moshe: Been friends for years. And it's wonderful to have Annie on and be able to talk to her again because I haven't seen Annie since we actually. Well, I mean, I've seen her seen her, but I haven't, like, been physical proximity to her since we left Montreal. Since we left Montreal.

[01:54] Leah: Eight months ago.

[01:55] Moshe: Yeah.

[01:55] Leah: Eight months ago.

[01:56] Moshe: So it's always great to talk to Annie.

[01:58] Leah: So let's talk about the topic of today and why we are speaking to Annie about it. Because she has more authority. I mean, we all sort of have authority on the subject, but she's got more.

[02:08] Moshe: I'll get into that in a bit.

[02:10] Leah: Yeah. So the subject today is the correlation, or the supposed correlation between people who are neurodivergent and who are LGBTQ or somewhere else on the rainbow. Now, Annie, explain to everybody why you have a lot to talk about with this.

[02:30] Annie: First of all, I was diagnosed at 14 with Tourette syndrome, re diagnosed later on in life with ADhd. I am 99% sure that I am also autistic. However, try getting a diagnosis nowadays. I am transgender. I was born with a physical presence that does not match my spiritual presence.

[03:02] Leah: So you were born with, let's say, xy chromosomes. For those who don't know what that is, look it up.

[03:08] Annie: I'm actually not sure about the actual chromosomes. However, that alone is such a confusing thing that I don't even want to get into.

[03:19] Leah: And you felt that that didn't match you, so you've taken some steps to correct those things.

[03:24] Annie: Yes, that is correct. I take hormones. I have had a single surgery.

[03:33] Leah: Thanks for sharing all that with us, Annie. Is there anything else that you want everyone to know before we get into the topics which are dense?

[03:40] Annie: Definitely dense. I don't consider myself to be an expert in any way, but I also have my own opinions that have been at least somewhat researched. So if I make.

[03:54] Leah: If I make.

[03:55] Annie: Oh, it's definitely been researched a lot, but there's always new information coming out. So if there's anything that, if anyone ever has any questions for me, I'm sure that we can find some way to send them my way.

[04:10] Leah: Yep. So that is definitely one of the themes of our podcast, is that people are welcome to disagree with us, agree with us, talk to us about anything, and none of us are experts, but we have a lot of life experience, and in your case, a lot of research. You have to do a lot of research when you're like you to back it up. So the first topic here is neurodiverse. Individuals often experience or perceive social cues and constructs differently, which can lead to less adherence to strictly enforced sexual and gender roles. I wanted to discuss the validity of this theory, because this is a theory, actually, Annie, that years ago you told me about. So I said, wow, so many, like, gay people seem to be autistic, and you said, probably not. It's just because autistic people are more open to sharing the fact that they're gay. So let's discuss the validity of this. I have two neurodivergent people here to share their opinions so well, and I.

[05:03] Annie: Should mention this is exclusively an opinion. But absolutely, in my experience, most of the people who I have spoken with who are either sexually or gender queer in one way or another, and by far not all, but a good chunk, like more than 50% appear to be neurodivergent in some way. And my personal opinion of that is simply that being neurodivergent alone comes with a lot of kickback against socially acceptable cues. And I think basically one leads into the other, that if you're both neurodivergent and trans, for example, it's not that you're more likely to see gender affirming care, it's more that it's going to be more pertinent to you personally just because you think about it more. In my case, it became a hyper fixation to an uncomfortable degree, to the point where it was very all pervasive for a while and still can be from time to time. So it was easy. Like for me, it was easier to say I've got Tourette's, I've got ADHD, than it was to say that I was trans. Also because I got a lot of kick, a lot of pushback from communities, from people around me on those little things that we all agree are neurological at this time, at this, our lives. And people are willing to make more. They're willing to be more understanding about somebody being ADHD, for example, than they are about somebody who prefers to dress according to their gender expression.

[06:48] Leah: Right? So let's talk about that. I think that society at large feels that being neurodivergent is out of someone's control, but being genderqueer, for example, is in someone's control. Like you can't help but have tics, or you can't help but have attention problems, or you can't help but have social issues, but you can definitely not dress up like the other gender. And I think that's how a lot of people in society, especially just, you know, neuro straight people, gender straight people, sexually straight people who have never had to deal with any of that think because it's how they would be. Give me an opinion on that.

[07:23] Annie: That actually to this day is still the biggest thing that keeps people in the closet, keeps them from coming out, is the social pushback. The people who think that gender itself is inherent to what parts you're born with.

[07:42] Leah: Right? So being honest with you, for me it is. So why would somebody like me understand it unless they were close to somebody like you?

[07:49] Annie: Well, exactly. You made effort, but you were also open minded to that effort in the first place. Most people, I know what I sound like, I know I don't have the most feminine voice, I know I don't look the prettiest, but my gender is not something that should matter to somebody else unless they're interested in dating me. On the other hand, there's also the feeling of getting to know people who are like yourself. And most of those I also share neurotype with as well as a gender difference with.

[08:28] Leah: Right. Therefore, why don't you give me your opinion on the validity of this theory?

[08:33] Moshe: So there's a couple of different things that I've noticed through my experience. And we discuss the sociological term called neuroqueer, which query neuroqueering or neuroqueer? And that is the theory that a person who is, they use the term deviant in one aspect of their sense of self is more likely to be deviant in another aspect, or at the very least, is more comfortable with another deviation. For example, the understanding that somebody who is autistic is stereotyped as being asexual because that is how it's portrayed, or somebody who is autistic is far more likely to. I don't like to use the word rebel, but push back against gender norms. Whereas somebody who is very autistic would go, you know what? Today I want to wear a dress because I like the feel of the material and it is very pretty, so I'm going to wear it and I don't care what is expected of me.

[09:40] Leah: But having been through what we went through with Annie, that wasn't our case.

[09:44] Moshe: No. And there's a big difference between I define or I identify with a gender that was not the gender that I presented of as is at birth. And, for example, I just feel like I don't want to wear norm based clothing. And that is vastly different when it comes to that. But neurodiverse individuals do not necessarily feel as restrained, not just when it comes to gender and sexual expression as they will in other ways. Because the question is, if it's how I feel and it's how I want to behave or I want to present, then I'm going to do it.

[10:28] Leah: A weird question for you, actually, both of you. So why is it that I can wear your t shirts, your pants, your underwear even, and it's acceptable and it's cute, but if you wear women's clothing or even when Annie was wearing women's clothing, it's considered weird.

[10:43] Moshe: I think it really depends on a sociological perspective. For example, it is just as offensive in some parts of Jerusalem for you to wear pants as it is for me to wear a dress.

[10:56] Leah: True enough, I don't go outside that way.

[10:58] Moshe: And that is because of the norms that we've come to allow to permeate our society. And again, I don't want to go off on any sort of controversial tangent here, but we are existing, whether we're living in Israel, or whether we're living in Canada, the United States, Australia, or the United Kingdom, or any of the countries where listeners are tuning into us. We're living in a country that is founded based on, and I hate this word so much, but I'm going to say it anyway, general Judeo christian values and Judeo christian values define gender roles as. This is what a boy does. This is what a girl does. This is the color that boys like. This is the color the girls like. This is the clothing that women wear, and these are the clothing that men wear.

[11:42] Leah: Right.

[11:42] Moshe: And it's very defined. And anything that deviates from that is seen as outside of the norm, whereas someone who is neurodiverse is already spending their entire life going outside of the norm. So they're like, you already don't like me because I have tics, or you already don't like me because I can't retain information and my focus is always deviating. You already don't like me because I have meltdowns. So if I'm going to present as a different gender or I'm going to present as a different orientation, then what the heck? In for a penny, in for a pound, as they say.

[12:18] Leah: But that's actually a really sad viewpoint, because I'll tell you, and you weren't necessarily always there because we were in different parts of the country, but I was, and Annie, before coming out, actually was so stringent about not dressing because of that reason that seeing the sort of euphoria she had the first time she put on dresses or pink or cute clothes was actually really sweet, and it was really nice to see. So it's kind of sad to not necessarily have an understanding of that process. It's not prevalent. It's actually, not surprisingly, about 2%, just like neurodiverse people. Right. But it's there.

[13:01] Moshe: And having that joy that you experience with living your best self or your true self or your most honest self, whether it's about gender expression or neurodiversity, is definitely going to be there, because ultimately, and this is a rule overall, you should live the way that you feel inside, whether it's how you perceive the world or how you perceive gender. And that is something that Annie and the lgbt community struggles with. And, I mean, I'm not going to at all draw a comparison between neurodiversity and, you know, that other list of initials.

[13:48] Leah: I mean, some people are neurodiverse and completely straight and gender conforming, and some people are not. And they're completely neurotypical. I'm sure that it happens. We're just discussing the prevalence of the intersection.

[14:02] Moshe: The term, I think, is correlation, not causation.

[14:05] Leah: They're not sure. The studies are actually not sure, which I find unacceptable at this point in history.

[14:12] Moshe: We discussed a lot because I actually did research.

[14:14] Leah: I have, like, percentages and stuff.

[14:16] Moshe: We discussed a lot about this in past episodes, specifically the episode on genetics, check it out. Where we talked about, is there a genetic link between a person's genetic makeup or chromosomes and them being neurodiverse? And the answer is maybe, but we don't know.

[14:32] Leah: The answer is most likely, but they're not sure, which, because we went for genetic counseling, which we also did an episode on. Check it out.

[14:39] Moshe: Yes.

[14:40] Leah: And that's what they said to you. They said I was fine even though I have all kinds of diseases in my family. But you had to go for genetic mapping because all your children are autistic.

[14:49] Moshe: Because heaven forbid that my children could be autistic. And we also discussed in the episode on sexuality, which you can also check out on YouTube if you're over the age of 18, where we discussed, because we did that poll where there was, I don't know if it was very significant, but there was definitely a much higher percentage for neurodivergent versus neurotypical or lstic or whatever term you only used, people who presented as straight cisgender versus some other aspect of that. What is your perspective on that, Andy?

[15:27] Leah: I mean, to be honest with you, as it always is, when we get together, we chitchat way too much. So the two of you have actually covered my first three topics already, which, which is not surprising because the iq between the three of us is probably like 5000.

[15:41] Moshe: It would blow the display.

[15:42] Leah: We just talk very freely with each other. Again, as Annie mentioned, we're very friendly. Both Moshe and I have been there forever over different parts of the transition, and there was not necessarily any rhyme or reason to the switch of partnership, other than the fact that Moshe and I were very in love and Annie was doing her own thing.

[16:01] Moshe: I would like to give Annie a chance to respond to some of the things that I said, though.

[16:05] Leah: Yeah, absolutely. Let me throw one more thing out there while she's talking. Multiple studies show a much higher level of neurodivergent people among transgender and gender diverse individuals. Opinion.

[16:18] Annie: Okay, so a lot of this comes down to very surprisingly simple reasoning. From what I've observed, and I should mention, people may or may not know already that I have in the past streamed on Twitch, I have made friends who are sexually diverse. Gender diverse.

[16:44] Leah: Link to your twitch for anybody who's interested.

[16:46] Annie: We should, if you'd like. But one of the things that I've learned over the course of being on twitch and making these friends is very simply, no two people present exactly the same I'm referring to. But obviously gender is a big thing in that some people prefer to stay behind some kind of model. Some people prefer to be in front of the camera directly. Some people are very masculine, very feminine. Some people, you couldn't even tell what their gender is by looking at them. And then you have the people whose sexuality is diverse, which you really can't tell from looking at it.

[17:31] Leah: You can't tell unless they tell you, again, not somebody's business. Unless they're trying to date you.

[17:37] Moshe: Exactly.

[17:37] Annie: Exactly. And then you have the neurotypically diverse. And by that, I mean there are some people who don't exhibit what I. What people think of as classic signs of autism, that they don't resemble characters from the good doctor or. I can't remember that other show that I'm thinking, well, awkward.

[18:00] Moshe: Atypical.

[18:01] Annie: Atypical, yeah.

[18:02] Leah: Big Bang. Were you thinking about Big Bang?

[18:05] Moshe: There's all sorts of shows that try.

[18:06] Leah: To portray the worst representation. He's like, if somebody looked up what's an autistic? And they just put it all in one character. Oh, yeah, we do have to do a show on something.

[18:18] Annie: Yeah, they never either explicitly. They also never explicitly stated that he has. They kind of skirted a little bit. But that's another. That's another episode, right?

[18:31] Leah: Annie's already dictating the episodes for sure.

[18:35] Moshe: No, Lee, Moshe and Annie watch Big Bang theory.

[18:39] Leah: I mean, you do like flags. The fun with flags thing was a little too close for comfort.

[18:43] Moshe: I laugh. Flags are my hyper focus.

[18:47] Leah: Annie is particularly picky about things like where her seat is and stuff like that. Right. Don't use my towel, don't sit in my seat. You know, that kind of thing.

[18:56] Annie: Guilty. At least I'm better, but I'm not great.

[19:00] Leah: I'm still, don't hug me. That kind of thing. I mean, you're allowed to hug her and I'm allowed to hug her, but not everybody, exactly.

[19:07] Annie: For me, it's a matter of the person. There are some people who can get into my proverbial bubble without even asking, but for the most part, ask first. When it comes down to it, there's a lot of. Of people who have autism, ADHD, etcetera, on their, on their tags, no two will present exactly the same. There are some things like attention span with ADHD is fairly prevalent, but that you have other people who actually could fully play a game completely and engage with chat and do this and the other thing. And that's also ADHD, just in a different way. When it comes down to it, a lot of the streamers that I have seen who are trans or elsewhere on the rainbow. That's how I like to refer to it on the rainbow, because it feels more colorful. They often seem, from my experience, to be just more accepting of others and themselves. And that is the key right there. A lot of people will say I'm neurodivergent. I hate this about myself, so I'm going to do my best to hide it.

[20:26] Leah: Moshe did that.

[20:28] Moshe: I did.

[20:28] Annie: And unfortunately, it can only work for so long.

[20:31] Leah: And you did that with your gender, you couldn't hide your neurodivergence. Because I don't know if everybody knows what Tourette's is. I don't know if you can maybe describe it really quickly.

[20:40] Annie: Well, the way I always look at it, everybody has this little part of their brain where they're. Where they come up with the most ridiculous things, like bark like a dog, make dolphin sounds, whatever example you want to use, like make up a little song about a swearing t rex. And then they have this little part of their brain that says, don't do it out loud, depending on the person. Unfortunately, when I was growing up, I came to the conclusion that that was a position in my. In my neurological industry that was empty. Therefore, I had. I had no little executive telling me, this is a bad decision. I would just make sounds I would just react to, like, those thoughts. Fortunately, nothing too bad. But.

[21:36] Leah: But it made it impossible for you to hide your neurodivergence, but you could hide your gender difference for sure. Yeah, you did. Kind of in plain sight, but it's kind of retroactively obvious.

[21:48] Annie: Yeah, I mean that now. Like, there's certain things. Like, there are people who I think should have known and could have tried to have a conversation with me about it when I was growing up. I remember there was a very openly and flamboyantly gay, not really teacher, like, teacher and training kind of thing at one of the schools that I was at who was basically trying to teach me how to shave because he noticed I didn't shave because I couldn't stand it. Like, I hated the fact that I had shaved. And I said explicitly, this isn't right. I shouldn't have this. I shouldn't have to worry about shaving. I shouldn't be this hairy. And I wasn't even that hairy at the time. And this person was, like I said out, very flamboyantly gay. Like, this is somebody who could have provided me with a safe place to try coming out then. And I look back at it, I'm pretty sure I was trying to go ahead.

[22:49] Leah: Even among gay people, trans issues weren't very well accepted or understood for a very long time, though, unfortunately, it happens.

[22:59] Annie: Unfortunate.

[23:00] Leah: So I did find a study that shows that 42% to 69% of individuals with autism spectrum disorder identify as part of a sexual minority. So what we mean here by sexual minority is anything from same sex attraction to full transition. Yet another study shows that people with ADHD tend to display more adventurous sexual behavior and a wider range of partner preference. Discuss.

[23:30] Moshe: Well, again, it really comes down to neurodiversity removing some of the filters and things that we struggle with just as a virtue of the fact that we're neurodivergent, like social cues and social mores. And I will give an example in that when you are trying to ask somebody out or you are pursuing someone that you're attracted to, you lack the ability to fully understand whether what you're doing is, number one, appropriate and number two, well received. So you end up sort of chatting up a girl or a guy, and you feel like it's going very well, and they're sort of giving you all the nonverbal cues that say that they're repulsed by you.

[24:27] Leah: Right.

[24:28] Moshe: I asked in, I want to say, 2001 or two. I was really trying to enhance my socialization, so I asked a girl out in a mall in Metro town in British Columbia, actually, and I thought it went quite well, and it was really more to the tune of, hi, you're pretty. Would you like to come have dinner with me tonight? And she said, oh, sure. And I showed up. And of course she didn't because it was absolutely not well received.

[25:03] Leah: That's very random. Maybe she just thought it was weird or something.

[25:06] Moshe: But people always said, if you want to date someone, you should just ask them out of. And I took that to mean, just go up to random people and tell them you should ask them out. Another time on the metro in Montreal, I saw a girl that I thought was relatively attractive, and I said, you're pretty, and then immediately got off to the next station. And I didn't really know what I hoped would be accomplished by that, but in my mind, I thought it went quite well. But. So it's that idea, this idea that you don't really know what is appropriate.

[25:46] Leah: Maybe you were practicing.

[25:48] Moshe: I mean, it's definitely possible, but also.

[25:51] Leah: I would like to bring up, because those were two studies that studied ASD and ADHD. And the fact is you both kind of seem to have both. I mean, you are diagnosed with both, and he couldn't get an ASD diagnosis, I think because of the gender difference, to be honest with you. Because girls in general, and, you know, her brain was born girl, have a lot harder time convincing doctors that they're ASD. But I do, like, see the signs there, right, personally. But I find people who I can speak with authority on you because I know you. People with ADHD and ASD get a little stuck in a lot of things, and dating is one of them, especially for you, because you will chase somebody that you're interested in, like, doesn't matter, whoever it is. And then once they say yes, you're like, I don't know what to do. It's like, that's your ADHD chasing. But then your autism goes, whoa, I don't know what to do with you.

[26:54] Moshe: Yes, because you think, like, you're supposed to do a certain thing.

[26:57] Leah: Like, you want me to take my clothes off and stuff. No, you want to, like, touch me. That's not happening. Sit across from there and eat your dinner. Nickel.

[27:07] Moshe: It's like that cartoon of the coyote and the roadrunner where they go through, like a series of rapidly shrinking pipes and he comes out. The coyote comes out at the end of it and he's extremely tiny. And the roadrunner is just kind of standing there and he, like, wraps his arms around the roadrunner's legs and then holds up a sign that says, well, you all wanted me to catch him. Now what do I do?

[27:29] Leah: Right?

[27:29] Moshe: And that's exactly what I've known each.

[27:31] Leah: Other for a long time, and we've gone through the gambit of also being friends. You've spoken very openly with me, right? And you've said things like, well, I mean, you were shocked that people wanted to have sex with email fans. I don't want to be like, you know, too graphic here. And I looked at you one day and I said, what did you think you were doing? Like, what did you think you were trying to accomplish? And you're like, I don't know. I was like, when you date people, that's what they expect, especially when you're.

[27:56] Moshe: An adulthood seems like a good idea at the time.

[27:59] Leah: But then you were like, why this part, though? So that was, I think, again, the ADHD doing the chasing and then the autism sort of doing the screeching. Halt. What do you think of that, Annie?

[28:09] Annie: Well, there's always this whole joke about you're chasing and you're chasing and you're chasing and you have no idea what you're going to do when you get, if you actually, you wouldn't have any idea what you were going to do when you actually catch them? Like, well, first of all, the truth is, nobody. You can't catch somebody unless they want to be caught to begin with. I mean, especially since things like consent are extremely important, especially for someone with my particular neurotype, whatever that happens to be. But when I look at it, when I look at everything, I can say, I don't know if that has something to do with being neurodivergent or if that's another thing, because there is the whole asexual and aromantic spectrum on top of everything else.

[29:00] Leah: I think it's also difficult to transition from having sex with oneself to having sex with someone else.

[29:07] Annie: Oh, yeah.

[29:07] Leah: When they're neurodivergent because of sensory issues and reading the room and reading how they're feeling and reading how you're feeling. It's a lot of work.

[29:19] Annie: It's a lot more of a mental exercise than it's possible to have done solo. So there's that as well. But when it comes down to it, there are so many moving parts that go into any of it that include gender, that include sexuality, whether we want them to or nothing. That can even include whether you're in a relationship with the person or not, because some people absolutely need that emotional bond before the other wheels can start moving.

[29:55] Leah: The gas and brake thing, I don't know if we actually ever discussed that on the podcast. We've discussed it in life.

[30:01] Moshe: We have. That might be a good topic.

[30:04] Leah: I don't know. Have you ever heard. I forget who it is? There's a speaker. She's like a sex therapist.

[30:09] Moshe: You saw TED talk.

[30:10] Leah: It was a TED talk. And she discusses. She's also lgbt, I think, and she discusses how somebody's sex drive is like a gas pedal, and certain behaviors will press somebody's gas, and certain behaviors will press somebody's brake. And that you have to know which is which. And that's even harder and requires a lot more communication when one partner, or probably even both, are neurodivergent.

[30:35] Annie: The more neurodivergence that goes into any situation, the more complex it becomes. But, yes, that is. That sounds very accurate, because a lot of people say things along the lines of, this is what turns me on. This is what turns me off. I was watching an episode of Harley Quinn where one of the characters, Bane, explicitly said, it really turns me off when people use language wrong and, like, there's so many jokes in there, but when it comes down to it, I kind of get it. If there's something that sticks in your brain as being offensive to you, you'll always find it offensive regardless.

[31:20] Leah: Yeah. So let's discuss the double minority effect.

[31:24] Annie: Yes, that is an important one.

[31:27] Leah: It is essentially what it sounds like. So it describes the compound challenges faced when an individual navigates multiple marginalized identities simultaneously. So in this case, being lgbt and neurodivergent. So, for example, masking both behavior and sexuality, because you can't choose what to mask, cognitive limitations may limit self expression or self exploration. All or nothing thinking in the case of ADHD, decision paralysis when making multiple choices, especially if you're attracted to everybody along the spectrum. So discuss the double minority effect when it comes down to being at least two minorities, you know, in both of your cases, if not three, because of, you know, the jewish thing.

[32:12] Moshe: But it's a really tough road to walk on simply because back to the neuro queering term that I used. When you are living in a society where certain expectations are made of you, it's hard enough if you have to live in a world that is not neurologically built for you. But if you're also not sexually or gender conforming, conforming. Thank you. Then it's much more difficult because you have to ask yourself, in a sense, what do I want and who am I? And I'll give a very good example of that. And it's kind of humorous. The idea of bisexuality as an autistic makes absolutely no sense to me.

[33:02] Leah: Ironically enough, bisexuality makes no sense for an autistic.

[33:05] Moshe: Yes, bisexuality makes no sense for an autistic, however. So you have the. In the sense, the idea that autistics are always trying to structure and routine and stabilize everything. But if you happen to be gay or you happen to be straight, then as an autistic, it actually works quite well because you can say, this is who I like and this is who I am. Done. I can move on with my day. But if you happen to be outside of the norm, if you're pansexual or bisexual or hemisexual or whatever, then you end up spending all of your time questioning the very way that you perceive attraction, in addition to the way that you perceive sensory issues and all the other things that come with being whatever flavor of neurodiverse you are.

[34:00] Leah: That sounds pretty horrid, to be honest with you, it sounds like something I wouldn't want to have to deal with. I think the two of you have both landed on mostly liking girl. But correct me if I'm wrong in the end, but I navigated a similar thing. But I didn't like, I didn't agonize over it. I was just like, that person's cute. Oh, that person's also cute. Also. That person's cute. Like, it just never occurred to me to agonize about it.

[34:26] Moshe: As an autistic, it was one of the most challenging things that I had to perceive was the concept that an autistic person, quite stereotypically, but often quite honestly, has a very black and white way of seeing the world. Things are either one way or they're nothing. So the idea that a sexual orientation can be both, it blows your mind. You go into paralysis over it because you will end up in a situation where you will look at a member of the opposite sex and go, well, I find that person attractive, but that guy of the same sex or that person of the same sex over there is also attractive. But how do I. I. But I don't under. Because. But also, I don't. And then you just. Your day's over. You might as well just go back to bed. A trip to the mall can just end your whole day because you end up lying awake at night. But I think this way. But I also think that way. But I like that. But I also like that and I don't understand. So which is it? And you don't know what to do and you can't move on past it. So it's challenging. It's humorously challenging, actually. I don't know.

[35:37] Leah: That sounds.

[35:39] Annie: Yes, but then you add also the confusion towards non binary individuals on top of everything.

[35:47] Moshe: Exactly. Don't even get me started on that. It's hard. It's tough. You end up. It's where you zoom in more and more and more and more into one concept, and before you know it, your head's exploded all over the room and you have to find all the pieces and nothing quite goes back together the way it used to. And then you have to find the right glue, and it just, it'll never be the same structurally, it's just not going to be that stable anymore once you put your head back together.

[36:23] Leah: I'm really sorry that you've had such bad sexual issues. I'm joking.

[36:28] Annie: Oh, call it.

[36:29] Moshe: Yes.

[36:30] Annie: Okay. So as far as that's concerned, I can honestly tell you never had to use glue. Let's. I'm gonna leave that one alone again, I'm sorry.

[36:41] Leah: To the general listenership, this is how we are when we get together.

[36:44] Moshe: Yes.

[36:47] Annie: When I'm looking at it, sexuality, when you're, when you're neurotypical is. Is one thing to deal with. Sexuality when you're nerve divergent is another thing to deal with. Sexuality when you're gender divergent is another thing to deal with. And when you have to mix two of those together, it becomes a monster. So just on the aspect of figuring out sexuality, you have to figure out how much is the individual, how much is aesthetic attraction, how much is platonic attraction, how much is sexual attraction, how much is that person is just **** cool. And I'd like to know them better. It's confusing sometimes. And some people figure it out easily, and some people spend their entire lives figuring it out because in some cases it's literally just a matter of that individual. This person is interesting, this person is attractive. On one or more of the other four types of attraction, then you have. Of course, I assume that the study, I assume that the numbers were more referring to other aspects of life as well. So if I go on a more semi personal level, because I don't want to give out too much information in the interest of privacy. But essentially there's a lot like, if we use the medical field as an example, there is, I'm sure will always be a lot of what is known as the broken arm theory or broken arm syndrome, which essentially works out too. You could be there dying, but it's all because of the fact that your arm is broken. Don't actually look at the actual cause. So this could be seen very clearly when it comes to people, patients who are obese. This could be very clear.

[38:52] Leah: You can, you can discuss that. You went through that with me a lot, but I don't have to protect my privacy there.

[38:58] Annie: But it could also be seen a lot with people, with patients who are neurodivergent and especially those who have an odd sense of their own body in one way or another. And those were gender divergent. Like, for me, this is on a personal thing. A lot of people, a lot of doctors automatically assume any issue that I come to them with is caused by the fact that I'm on HRT, which is hormone replacement therapy for those who don't know. So they just assume that that's what it is. Even though just using an example from a comic book, hormones wouldn't account for a piece of rebar stuck through your chest. But they don't care about that.

[39:45] Moshe: If a metal sticking, piece of metal sticking out of you must be the hormones you're on, it really has to be. Couldn't be any other reason.

[39:52] Annie: Exactly.

[39:53] Leah: So again, she discussed one of my other topics before we got there, but yes. So there are barriers for neurodivergent people, LGBT and trans people, it says here, especially gender affirming care. What do you think about that? First of all, what's gender affirming care?

[40:09] Annie: Well, gender affirming care can be a wide variety of things, starting from as simple as having a therapist to talk to about how you're feeling, which, in my opinion, is very important. It is rare that I have known somebody who had talked to a therapist about that and gotten and gotten proper support for it right off the bat, because a lot of therapists even don't really have anything to. They don't have any knowledge about it. But when it comes down to it, there's things like de transitioning people who start their transition and then stop for whatever reason. Most of the time, those reasons are because they don't get the social help that they need. And that can include therapy, that can include a partner or a parent or whoever, like basically having no support. Of all the stories of detransitioners I've heard of, I've only heard of one who was basically transitioning not because they were trans, but because they didn't want to be themselves. And that is one person who could very much have been helped before the fact by a properly trained therapist who could tell the difference between someone who is crying out to be seen and someone who's crying out to hide.

[41:40] Leah: That's what I was going to say. Shouldn't the therapists catch that before any gender affirming care happens?

[41:47] Annie: In theory, yes, but there's not much training when it comes down to that. At least not as much as there should be. It might be better now, but it certainly hasn't always been that way, even recently. What comes out to it? You also have certain barriers, like stuff in the UK, you're only allowed to provide gender affirming care if you've been trained in it, and there's a reason why wait. Lists are so insufferably long. I've heard it can take anywhere, three to five years to more just to get an appointment. It's ridiculous. But when it comes down to everything, if you add everything together, somebody who's a properly trained therapist is the very first line. You don't automatically just say, oh, I'm trans, and suddenly you're getting surgery and you're on hormones and everything. It just doesn't happen that way. It can't happen that way, not responsibly.

[42:50] Leah: Right.

[42:51] Moshe: Because there's a lot of counseling and discussions and options that go into it.

[42:55] Leah: So for those who think at least, I mean, I've only experienced a transition in Canada with somebody that I was close to. But for those who think that people are just transitioning willy nilly, they're not.

[43:05] Annie: Oh, it took me years to be able to even come to the point where I was even comfortable in admitting it out loud. So, like, I'm not going to say how many years, but a lot of years. Way more than many, many, many.

[43:21] Leah: So let's talk about coming out. Let's discuss the difference between coming out as lgbt and coming out as neurodivergent, which is easier. Why? I mean, we touched on it a bit.

[43:31] Moshe: Before we get into that, though, I do want to do a cheap plug.

[43:34] Leah: Okay.

[43:34] Moshe: And when you're. When you're someone like me, cheap is the only kind that you can afford. So once again, thank you very much to all those who subscribe and download and get us to where we're at to. There was a graphic that I posted, I think, yesterday, actually, where we are rapidly approaching 3000, which may not seem like a whole heck of a lot, but considering that we started this podcast with zero, with nothing, we are grateful for everything that we can get. We are nothing if not humble. And we want to thank every one of our listeners and everyone who shared and downloaded and offered to. To give us their feedback. We've received a few messages. Some have been really, really positive. Some have been less positive. And that's also okay. We have been doing this for. For a few months now, and it's just been really wonderful to have the opportunity to speak with you every week. We have the subscribe button at the top of the homepage now, you know one autistic dot podbean.com, where you can subscribe and receive notifications for every episode that comes out. We have. Our PayPal is up now. We have a Patreon. We have our podcast on pretty much every podcasting app you can think of. And we're very grateful for the coverage that we have. Obviously, we could always use more listeners. And you may also notice that there are ads in our podcasts now. They're not very obtrusive, so hopefully they're not upsetting or bothersome to anyone. We go through everyone and make sure that it's not out of line with what we want to represent to our listeners. So we stayed away from some of the more conservative options. We don't talk a lot about politics. We don't talk a lot about where we happen to live. And there was a message that was sent that someone expressed that our positions did nothing fall in line with their political views. So I want to present to them the fact that Leah and I are now speaking with a neurodivergent, transgender person about gender affirming care. So take that for what it is and keep downloading, keep sharing, keep listening, and keep supporting us, and we'll keep doing this because this has been a lot of fun.

[46:08] Leah: Yeah, that's unfortunately, the drawback of being in the public eye is that people think they know you until you tell them.

[46:15] Annie: Right. And even then, they don't always believe you.

[46:19] Leah: I mean, I can tell them some things. Yeah.

[46:22] Moshe: But coming out.

[46:24] Leah: Yeah. So coming out as LGBT versus neurodivergent, which is easier, which is harder, why? Which is more acceptable in society, or are both equally, or do you do them both at once? Like, so many options, right.

[46:38] Annie: Well, for me, there was a lot of variance based on my situation. So originally, I found it difficult to be honest about my having Tourette syndrome, for example, to the point where I'm like, well, it hasn't really come up as an issue. And, like, just waiting until it seemed like an appropriate time and that kind of thing. Like, it. I was ashamed of it for a while, so I was like, let's try not to talk about this until necessary. Unfortunately, what it came to coming out, as far as my gender is concerned, that also was very much the same situation. Now I am relatively open about the fact that I was diagnosed with Tourette's syndrome. There's really no point in being embarrassed about it. It is just something that happened. Same with my ADHD. These are things that could be barriers in some situations, but I don't find them barriers anymore.

[47:38] Leah: People notice things anyway, so it's best to be honest and just get it out of the way. And that can mitigate some of the judgment and some of the harder times that you have it being accepted. Yeah.

[47:51] Annie: Then you have the. Then you have my gender and sexuality to. To talk about on top of it, because, let's be fair, like, years ago, I was presenting mail masking, if you will, you know, with a c instead of a k. But when it down to it, I had something that was told. There was one specific thing that was told to me a lot, and that was that I was various slurs relating to being effeminate or homosexual. But my only argument was, I like women. I was somebody who liked girls. It was easy for me to admit that I like girls because I was born in masculine body and a masculine body likes feminine bodies by default, according to these particular groups of people, and that's the norm.

[48:49] Moshe: So it's easier to. To sort of operate that way.

[48:53] Annie: But a lot of people also thought I was a gay boy, though. My only answer is they're half right, but that's another story. But when it came down to it, it was. I couldn't exactly come out as a straight male because I was not a straight male. I was a queer girl.

[49:13] Leah: We used to actually joke again, it's now not a secret that we were in a relationship, and I used to call you a lesbian all the time.

[49:20] Annie: That's because I was. But.

[49:23] Leah: I know, but I thought I was joking.

[49:24] Moshe: But I think we call that foreshadowing.

[49:29] Annie: Exactly. That was just foreshadowing. Or it's like you used something on some level, but didn't quite process it. So it's a joke. Like, it works sometimes, but, like, for a while, that was enough for me.

[49:43] Leah: I just loved the female form so much, and it was super obvious, so I don't know, I just thought it was cute to call you a lesbian.

[49:51] Annie: Yeah. I had an appreciation for all things feminine. This is, as somebody who's sitting here with a decidedly less feminine appearance in this room right now. But I'm me. I am female, regardless of what you think of what I'm wearing or my hair, my voice, nothing.

[50:12] Moshe: So, like, if anything, who gets to define what female is? Is it someone who pretends to set the societal norms, or is it the, you know, women who can say, I am feminine by virtue of the fact that I am female?

[50:29] Leah: I'm looking at you. It's pretty feminine to me.

[50:32] Moshe: Exactly.

[50:33] Annie: That's the thing. I am feminine. I just don't necessarily, like, I can dress up in something that's considered colloquially to be more butch and still be woman. Just because I've transitioned to female doesn't mean that I don't still like working with my hands doing. I just made an art kit into a scribes kit for a friend, and I basically did that entire project, with one small exception that I needed help with. I did that project myself. Does that make me any less feminine? I don't think so.

[51:14] Leah: Well, let's discuss stigma then. Did you have anything to add about coming out? About, like, coming out as ASD? Because you. We discussed it. You just. You're careful about who you disclose to. But that has more to do with the fact that people tend to treat you like the r word after they know.

[51:30] Moshe: We discussed it last week with our amazing guests Clark and Kate shout out to last week's episode where we talked about the idea, if you will, coming out as narrow, divergent and why we are very careful about telling too many people that I'm autistic. And the reaction that we get comes down to the fact that even in 2024, or if you follow the lunar calendar that we sometimes do 57, 85. More on that another time. When you say that you're autistic, you're basically using the r word, right.

[52:14] Leah: But what we get a lot, unfortunately, after you come out is there, is your wife there? Can I talk to her? Because I don't think you know.

[52:23] Moshe: Yes, because if you're autistic, then you are an imbecile, you are an invalid, you are incapable. You are not mentally capable of making a sound decision. You are a child.

[52:36] Leah: And as a feather in my cap, I have to be honest, I've become very good at tossing it right back. So if people message me and say, moshe said this to me, or I'm not sure about the whatever, I say, well, what did Moshe say to you? And they say, moshe said this and I said, so that's the answer. Like, I'm very careful about not overruling him to people like that because it's, it's the wrong thing to do. Guys just don't do that.

[52:59] Moshe: I have been very forthright in my advocacy for Abram because I understand his perspective of existing in the environment where there is not ever really going to be resources that are sufficient for his needs. Because another cheap plug. When you know one autistic, you know one autistic. And I will never be prepared to say that because im autistic. I can speak for him or any other autistic because his needs are different than my needs and my needs are different than his needs. And even when I was ten years old, I was also different in terms of what I needed than what he is.

[53:43] Leah: Absolutely.

[53:44] Moshe: But where I will draw the line though, is when people consider him stupid or less deserving of treatment or attention. The perspective of neurodivergency in Canada and the United States is vastly different than it is in other societies. I love Israel. I think its a wonderful country and were not going to get too political beyond that. But what I will say is that the understanding of neurodivergency here is vastly different than what it is in the west. And everything is just kind of thrown into a bag and everyone gets the sort of same treatment. But that having been said, the unity of this society is such that someone in the west will go, well, Alfred is autistic. He's clearly not going to be drafted. Oh, no, no, no. There are needs meant for everyone.

[54:42] Leah: Oh, no. At his school now, they're trying to meet his needs while making him do all the things that an israeli child would be required to do, including if he does want to go into the army. They'll physically train him. They expect him to learn Hebrew. They expect him to do the religion with everybody else. Right.

[55:01] Moshe: And that is also our choice as well. And being drafted does not automatically mean being sent to the front line. It can often mean just serving your country in some other way. And again, not trying to get too political. Everyone has their opinion on the military and fighting the wars and stuff. But the point that I'm trying to make is that when you are trying to express someone's needs in the way that you are, then you are doing them a disservice. And to their credit, I've been in regular contact with his teachers, and they're building quite a very good program that is suited for his needs because they have had a chance to spend some time with him. And being autistic does not mean that you are incapable of being a contributing member of any society. You can be in relationships, you can have friends, you can have a job.

[56:05] Leah: A lot of the time, the same as LGBT and.

[56:07] Moshe: Exactly.

[56:09] Leah: We actually were really close with a couple where one of them transitioned to a female.

[56:13] Moshe: Yes.

[56:13] Leah: And they were a fire captain before, and they maintained their job as a fire captain after.

[56:19] Moshe: Right.

[56:19] Annie: And they were just as capable afterwards as they were before.

[56:25] Leah: In fact, they're also just as respected because they had earned their respect.

[56:28] Moshe: You know, in both ways, the amount people who serve in the military, just by virtue of the universal enlistment policy that Israel has, is that Israel has a huge number of IDF people that are both gay and trans. And women.

[56:47] Leah: I mean, women, most. Half of them are women because half of society is women.

[56:50] Moshe: I mean, it's just kind of a. It's a thing. And the far more focus on your abilities versus what you look like, they're like, I don't care whether you're a man or a woman or something in between, if you're willing to serve the country, we can use you and we value you. And that is very, very important.

[57:12] Leah: I want to discuss the data gaps that I brought up earlier. I personally don't think that it's acceptable that they've done a little bit of research, obviously not enough, and that they still don't know they see a correlation, they see even a causation, but they don't know the reason why so many neurodivergent individuals are also queer. Do you think that that's acceptable, that at this stage in human history, we don't know that answer?

[57:40] Annie: I would think that it's inevitable, because the truth is, when it comes to studying people who are neurodivergent, there is a limit to what people are willing to fund. When it comes to understanding people who are gender or sexually divergent, that limit is significantly lower. So I constantly hear, as far as gender affirming care is concerned, by even the people who I would consider to be the most knowledgeable doctors. We don't know this stuff because there's no research in it. So my answer to that is usually, why aren't you doing the research to it? And the answer is, there's no funding, right?

[58:22] Leah: There's no money in it. It's the same reason why you had trouble with the Tourette's, because all the drugs that exist for Tourette's already exist, right? They're just awfully well, use this. So there was no money in it, so you can't find anybody who studies it.

[58:34] Moshe: If you can't cure it, then they're not going to research it because there's no money to be gained except for.

[58:38] Leah: Autism, because autism costs the government money. So they're trying to figure out how to actually mitigate that.

[58:43] Moshe: It does. And I will mention as sort of an aside related to that, that because of the lack of knowledge, back to the policy, or the policy, the topic genetics, and trying to find the reason, if you will, for autism. There are, unfortunately, a significant number of people of various, variously dubious credentials that are preaching about the cure for autism.

[59:13] Leah: Oh, yes.

[59:14] Moshe: And I listened to podcasts very briefly because I couldn't stomach it. When it comes to altering your diet.

[59:22] Leah: Or just not eating enough butter, if you ate more butter, Moshe, you'd be normal.

[59:27] Moshe: Someone did an entire podcast linking the candida with the prevalence of autism. And if you simply detoxify a person's liver, you can take what they call a serious autistic to someone who, it's barely noticeable. You have to detoxify the child and you will eliminate, they state, eliminate the risk of contracting autism. So the moral of the story is there's no actual cure for autism.

[59:57] Leah: There is. It's called eugenics, and that's disgusting.

[01:00:00] Moshe: Right. And if you want to listen, that.

[01:00:04] Annie: Wouldn'T work because we don't know what causes it unless you know what causes it. You cannot isolate it.

[01:00:12] Leah: It's unfortunate that a lot of genetic researchers are working on isolating it for that exact reason. I don't know if our listeners at large know we're going to be going through IVF.

[01:00:21] Moshe: We are.

[01:00:22] Leah: I think we discussed it, and we were offered for them to scan all of our embryos for autism genes and throw out the ones that have them.

[01:00:30] Moshe: Right. And that was something that we set absolutely. Absolutely not to. Because when you have the ability to distinguish, then you're basically creating. I think we talked about it in the genetics episode. The concept of creating a designer child is a little bit too close to eugenics. And speaking as Annie and myself, and you are all jewish, we have a very unfortunate connection to you.

[01:00:59] Leah: It's not a good thing, especially Annie. Annie comes from, like, a lot of Holocaust survivors, nearly directly, yes.

[01:01:08] Annie: My father's side of the family was full of survivors. My mother's side came over beforehand. So there's definite differences there. But that's. Again, that's another topic.

[01:01:22] Leah: It's a totally other topic. We can discuss the generational trauma of that all you want, but it's not even for this podcast. It's a different topic.

[01:01:29] Moshe: I would love to discuss it. I think there's lots of great material out there in Holocaust research, and I actually did a really interesting post or video on Asperger on National Autism day, and the. The not so secret history behind Doctor Asperger and why we don't use that term as much as we used to.

[01:01:55] Leah: He was a eugenicist, everyone, depending on.

[01:01:58] Moshe: Who you ask to and what the research you look into, he either worked with the **** party or he sort of was a contractor with the **** party, but he wasn't the nicest to the neurodivergent children, and they named I a condition after because of it. I don't understand it, but that's. Again, that's a different topic.

[01:02:19] Leah: So let's discuss real quick. Neurodivergent lgbt representation in pop culture. I want each of you to pick the person in pop culture that you feel represents your particular situation the closest.

[01:02:32] Annie: That's. Unfortunately, that's extremely unfortunate because for my personal identification, I don't. I don't feel that there's somebody who represents me in pop culture on all aspects.

[01:02:51] Leah: That absolutely makes sense because you're so rare. You're like the 2% to the 2%. What's the math on? Real quick?

[01:02:58] Annie: Still 2%.

[01:03:00] Leah: Zero, zero, two. No, I mean of the world population. So you're 2% I'm 2%. So you're 0.004 something. Anyway, not surprising.

[01:03:10] Annie: 2% of 2% is like 0.0 something. I don't know. But when it comes down to it, as far as being trans is concerned, I can easily say Hunter Schaefer as an individual I identify with, but when it comes to being neurodivergent, I don't have anyone who I currently identify with. As far as pop culture is concerned.

[01:03:37] Leah: That's true. Most people in pop culture who depict Tourette's as usually as a joke. Yeah, ADHD doesn't have much representation at all. They're just represented as like devil may care or bad boys or something.

[01:03:52] Annie: Or like I ADHd wise, I have represent. I feel more represented by Harley Quinn. Like as in the cartoon version, not like the current cartoon version.

[01:04:07] Leah: Got it. What about you, Moshe, who represents you best in pop culture?

[01:04:12] Moshe: Oh, wow. It's really hard to say. I identify with certain aspects of Freddie Highmore's characterization of Doctor Sean Murphy on the Good Doctor. But of course there are certain aspects that I can kind of look at that and go, come on, that's not.

[01:04:27] Leah: Even, I mean, talked to that show with a really critical eye because he's also supposedly married to a neurotypical girl. And the way that she knows him for not having known him that long and the way that she intrinsically deals with things, it's not possible. But I do agree he represents autism quite well. Freddie Highmore is an amazing actor, so he can do anything right.

[01:04:48] Moshe: That's kind of where I kind of stop, because unfortunately, I think the conclusion that I reached is there's actually really not good representation at all with neurodivergence in pop culture. Mostly because there is a mischaracterization of what neurodivergency is. Because if you look up how to behave like an autistic, you'll get a thousand different definitions.

[01:05:18] Leah: Yes, it usually has something to do with don't look people in the eye and sound robotic when you talk or the talk.

[01:05:25] Moshe: But I just.

[01:05:27] Annie: Two smaller forms.

[01:05:29] Moshe: Some can, some cant. Everyones, you know, its dont touch me, but also touch me. Yeah. So I don't really think that there's a lot of very good representation overall. And unfortunately, some of the best representation of neurodivergency are in portrayals where the person is actually not specifically labeled as autistic. Some would argue that, oh, what's his name? Holden Caulfield. And catcher in the Rye is a really good, or Caulfield, I'm sorry, for those who want to correct me, is a good representation of that hyper focusing on things and just kind of being out of touch with societal norms. So, I mean, catch her in the rye. It's a great representation.

[01:06:19] Leah: All right, so each of you, please highlight a unique strength that you have through either being LGBT, neurodivergent, or both. Biggest strength. I want to do some, like, positive stuff here, not just concerns, conundrums.

[01:06:35] Moshe: Annie, what's your biggest strength?

[01:06:38] Annie: Honestly, I think the way I'm able to understand other people's issues, especially where there are divergence and gender issues, actually, both are there. I have had multiple people approach me to talk about these things, and.

[01:06:56] Leah: I.

[01:06:57] Annie: Have this thing where I just listen to the person without making any of my own judgments unless I am specifically asked. And a lot of it comes down to, no matter how you feel you are, as long as you're being honest with yourself, you're right, because that's the key to all.

[01:07:17] Moshe: Absolutely. And honesty is definitely one of the things that I try to pride myself more on.

[01:07:23] Leah: Maybe too much.

[01:07:25] Moshe: Yes, maybe a little bit too honest. But I think because for me, I was an undiagnosed autistic for the majority of my life, several decades worth. And I literally always felt that I was in some way wrong. So I could have either taken the perspective that I could give up, or I could take the perspective that I could overcome it and persevere. When I was 17, I was approached by an organization who told me that given my lack of functional life skills and the ability to work or go to school or maintain my finances, that I was better off going into either a group home or a homeless shelter and just really starting from the basics. And I said, no, I want to go to school. I want to make something of my life. I want to have a relationship. I want to have a job. I want to get married. I want to have children. And I continue to overcome as many obstacles as I can to achieve the things that are important to me. And that's why we're doing our podcast today from Jerusalem.

[01:08:42] Leah: So you would say perseverance is your biggest strength, then?

[01:08:46] Moshe: Perseverance, it would have to be, because I started behind in a lot of things, and I had the choice of either overcoming them or giving up. And I don't like to give up that easily.

[01:09:01] Annie: I can see that easily.

[01:09:02] Leah: So what does everybody hope to see in the future regarding research and access to care for the intersection of lgbt and neurodivergent individuals?

[01:09:12] Annie: Personally, I'd like to see better training and significantly better availability, even in Canada, has a reputation of having good health care that doesn't always expand to mental health, and they're by an extension of mental health, neurological as well. And like I said, a lot of issues with people where people could have the support that they need to understand who they are before coming out. A lot of those issues could be solved easily by having better availability to more capable, more trained psychologists who do not have some sort of agenda that of keeping people down.

[01:10:00] Leah: I would like to see more unbiased research. So it's along the same line making the link between the two, because it's very obviously there and it's more than a correlation. So I would like to see that. And that will naturally lead, I think, to better care for everybody all the way around.

[01:10:14] Annie: I agree.

[01:10:15] Moshe: For my part, I really want to see an elimination of what Annie brought up, the whole broken arm principle when you are trying to delve into care, whether its neurodivergent care, gender affirming care, or care for the LGBTQ community, doing away with your preconceived notions, seeing the person and not the problem, and not prejudging someone based on how they present or how they feel, and really working on uplifting a person rather than pigeonholing them into what they are perceived as supposed to be, because there's no such thing as normal. And whether you are not presenting as the neurotype that you were supposed to be, or the gender that you were born as, or the orientation that you were expected to be, you are still a person and you still deserve the same love and respect and help, regardless of whether you're big, tall, fat, thin, autistic, neurotypical male, female, gay, straight.

[01:11:24] Leah: And I would like to just. I don't know, it's kind of a cheesy thing. But I would like to mention that since you've been advertising this podcast and putting up the pictures of all of us, they say what a beautiful family we are. And that's true just by the virtue of how close we all are. We are beautiful family we are.

[01:11:41] Moshe: We are a family of love. We are a very diverse family and we're very accepting and understanding of another people's differences because we live in a very, very amazing world. And we're definitely different. We are. But if you need any more evidence of it, we are talking to Leah's ex who is neurodivergent and trans and gay and gay. And we're having one of the most amazing conversations I think that we've had since this podcast started.

[01:12:16] Leah: Yeah.

[01:12:16] Annie: I really appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity as well.

[01:12:20] Leah: Well, I think depending on how popular.

[01:12:22] Moshe: You are, you might, we could definitely see having.

[01:12:24] Leah: You might have to ask Annie Corner.

[01:12:26] Moshe: We might have to.

[01:12:26] Leah: People who have Annie back, gender divergent.

[01:12:30] Annie: I'm open to questions. Questions. I just ask that they be worded as respectfully as possible. That's about it.

[01:12:37] Leah: That's the thing that we've had to deal with. Respectful people, respectful.

[01:12:42] Moshe: Any closing remarks?

[01:12:43] Leah: No. I mean, that's all for me. This was great. I really enjoyed it.

[01:12:47] Moshe: I did as well. Thank you very much for coming on the show, Annie. And we'll see all of you listeners next week, and I'm sure we'll be hearing from Annie again soon.

[01:12:58] Leah: See you next week.

[01:12:59] Moshe: Well, that's our show for today. Now, you know, one autistic, just a little bit better. So something you may not know about some autistics is that we often struggle with ending social interactions. So, Leah.

[01:13:15] Leah: All right, Moshe, I'll take care of it. Thank you for listening to now, you know, one autistic. See you next week.

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